Axe thief need a carefully look at, unhealthy for most of builds to fight against.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, Skary.8956 said:

Pistol 5 + Bound, Normal Hit, Axe 2 x2, steal, Axe 3
Deletes light armor dummy almost instantly.

Pistol 5 takes a half second to cast, Salvo takes a half second, axe 2X2 takes .75 seconds to cast each time, axe 3 takes a half second.

This whole setup takes well over 3 seconds to set up assuming your target doesn't move or react -at all-, announces your presence with cunning salvo, doesn't interrupt the target at any point, and telegraphs the burst is coming the whole time. Outside of cunning salvo it doesn't even do damage until the burst.

I don't know what y'all want at this point. Seems like people just like eating damage by being oblivious to the situation, then being upset they ate the damage because they were oblivious. 

Whatever.

Edited June 19 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

No it doesn't, gs2 will entirely miss because of blind.

the blind from black powder is not mandatorily placed on you. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

11 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

the blind from black powder is not mandatorily placed on you. 

Isn't it a 180-radius blind? With optional projectile follow up / combo with itself deal?

I guess if you are outside of it then it isn't 'mandatory' but if you are in melee good luck not getting blinded with that skill.  Multiple times.  

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

8 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Isn't it a 180-radius blind? With optional projectile follow up / combo with itself deal?

I guess if you are outside of it then it isn't 'mandatory' but if you are in melee good luck not getting blinded with that skill.  Multiple times.  

if a thief blinds you in your face as (non virtuoso) you can instashatter to clear it. If you are virtuoso your attacks track stealth.

you can also just... not stand in the smoke field. the tick for black powder is like once per two seconds.

It also takes almost half a trickery specc'd thieves init to use once, so it's not going to spam you to death immediately, drowning you in blinds. 

Terrorhuz's initial assessment of how the fight goes is right. Thief stealths from far away, throw axes, then repeat. but in between that loop there's some room to see where approximately they are, even on mes that isn't taking the hard counter. Keep in mind this class is practically designed to counter squishy mesmers. 

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With optional projectile follow up / combo with itself deal?

the projectile is guaranteed if you are being targeted, and also visible.

the axes, on top of being slow, only have a 20% chance to combo finish. The axe auto does not have a chance to combo at all. 

Edited June 19 by Azure The Heartless.3261
I feel like I need to stop visiting these forums because I just end up detailing how to fight things in response to complaints that it's unfightable when I should ideally be shutting the kitten up.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

22 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

if a thief blinds you in your face as (non virtuoso) you can instashatter to clear it. If you are virtuoso your attacks track stealth.

Keep in mind this class is practically designed to counter squishy mesmers. 

You write it as if the mesmer counters thief though.   

Regardless, I've just always hated the idea that BP combos with itself like that.  It's just potentially three blinds in a row to play around along with stealth.

Maybe I just wish smokescale blinded by default when you put the field down....

Edited June 19 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

You write it as if the mesmer counters thief though.   

Nah it sure doesn't. I'm just pointing out that the frustration of encountering something that destroys your kit is not new or specific to this version of thief. This is separate from the reality that the matchup is frustrating.

That's why I said  this earlier:

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Same thought process when I meet a power block mes or virt on warrior ngl 

I don't disagree with you, this design imbalance is just not new 

I was also pointing out that, although this version of thief destroys Terrorhuz's kit, it is not unbalanced merely because it does so. There are options he defined himself that turn this match into a ruinous one for the thief as well, and his kit has matchups that are just as frustrating for other class kits with similarly miniscule windows of counterplay. 

Quote

Regardless, I've just always hated the idea that BP combos with itself like that.  It's just potentially three blinds in a row to play around along with stealth.

Maybe I just wish smokescale blinded by default when you put the field down....

cant help ya there. you have to eat the projectile, then stand in it for both ticks to get effectively blinded three times. If that is something someone is doing they have other concerns to work on. 

Edited June 19 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Gotejjeken.1267]

19 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

cant help ya there. you have to eat the projectile, then stand in it for both ticks to get blinded three times. If that is something someone is doing they have other concerns to work on. 

You get blinded initially as its unblockable, and then it becomes a field so 20% chance you get blinded again.  Thief can also use this to become immune to melee for a bit as you can't fight them in the smoke field as it literally pulses blinds.  On a weapon skill, that while yes, uses a lot of initiative; but using initiative at all instead of a CD means it can be used again in relatively short order--or reserved as you can combo into stealth yourself.

It's too loaded.  What might be good is if it didn't pulse blinds, and just had the initial blinding shot and then left a field; or it can pulse blinds, but you cannot combo into stealth from it. 

It's always been a problematic skill, so I doubt they'd change it --but we probably shouldn't act like it's purely a L2P issue as the skill is insanely loaded.

As I've said it before and will continue to say it--stealth alone isn't a danger, it's the stealth combined with all the blind access and then add to that evades, shadowsteps, etc. and you start getting into iffy territory as far as balance goes.  

Edited June 19 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

You get blinded initially as its unblockable, and then it becomes a field so 20% chance you get blinded again.  Thief can also use this to become immune to melee for a bit as you can't fight them in the smoke field as it literally pulses blinds.  On a weapon skill, that while yes, uses a lot of initiative, but using initative at all instead of a CD means it can be used again in relatively short order--or reserved as you can combo into stealth yourself.

It's too loaded.  What might be good is if it didn't pulse blinds, and just had the initial blinding shot and then left a field; or it can pulse blinds, but you cannot combo into stealth from it. 

It's always been a problematic skill, so I doubt they'd change it --but we probably shouldn't act like it's purely a L2P issue as the skill is insanely loaded.

Whatever you feel man

I'm not gonna spend time defending black powder

[Gotejjeken.1267]

3 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Whatever you feel man

I'm not gonna spend time defending black powder

If only they'd balance around not defending black powder instead of probably eventually directly nerfing axes because people are actually losing to the blinds and easy stealth access....we might get somewhere.  

But then again, this is a game where mesmer exists and cannot only stealth, but also full invuln through distortion and royally kitten on the targeting system with clone spam.  Clone spam that if you don't dodge and eat a shatter...well...

So my musings aren't really directed at anything specifically, but we're just in a 'deal with it' meta and probably will be forever.  

[Shagie.7612]

remember kids every thief build is actually the worst thing ever and doesn't work at all in any way and it's totally punishable for everyone

[Terrorhuz.4695]

6 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

the blind from black powder is not mandatorily placed on you. 

> "those are the skills you should use to handle axe thief 🙂"
> blind will deny them
> "then use LoS to stop the blind 🙂"
> then LoS is denying them

Azure.

Edited June 19 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Skary.8956]

5 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Pistol 5 takes a half second to cast, Salvo takes a half second, axe 2X2 takes .75 seconds to cast each time, axe 3 takes a half second.

This whole setup takes well over 3 seconds to set up assuming your target doesn't move or react -at all-, announces your presence with cunning salvo, doesn't interrupt the target at any point, and telegraphs the burst is coming the whole time. Outside of cunning salvo it doesn't even do damage until the burst.

I don't know what y'all want at this point. Seems like people just like eating damage by being oblivious to the situation, then being upset they ate the damage because they were oblivious. 

Whatever.

I'm not counting setup and I'm testing on a training dummy this is the best case scenario.
Can you imagine a game where you don't need time to setup your combo where you just click a single button and you insta deal 15k dmg :D?
I can summarize all your comments on all posts related to balance of broken skills/weapons to "Just Dodge and how people can be this stupid?"
Just dodge LOL? Thank you genius! What happens if you don't have a dodge available? You get 8k dmg in the face
Lets dodge the axes that are barely visible and can be hidden inside walls.
With the mobility and stealth you can definitely work around the cast times of the axes.

I can bet that instead of nerfing axes Anet will nerf the mobility killing all other weapon options almost instantly

 

 

[Endo.1652]

17 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Pistol 5 takes a half second to cast, Salvo takes a half second, axe 2X2 takes .75 seconds to cast each time, axe 3 takes a half second.

This whole setup takes well over 3 seconds to set up assuming your target doesn't move or react -at all-, announces your presence with cunning salvo, doesn't interrupt the target at any point, and telegraphs the burst is coming the whole time. Outside of cunning salvo it doesn't even do damage until the burst.

I don't know what y'all want at this point. Seems like people just like eating damage by being oblivious to the situation, then being upset they ate the damage because they were oblivious. 

Whatever.

You can set up your axes while in stealth. So this isnt 100% the case. Axe 3 is an evade too so youd have to time the burst during a frame but you need to dodge that as well since its the main burst. Shadow Arts restoring initiative along with the stealth attacks restoring it if they land means your axe thief can almost endlessly set up.  Not to mention you are constantly being blinded. Oh and your stealth attack can land twice since axe 3 applies all of its effects assuming it lands.

It can be counterplayed but not the way youre saying it can be

Edited June 19 by Endorphin.9147

[Endo.1652]

I think the main thing people dont like about axe thief is it isnt that its super OP. Its just low risk and low effort for the reward you eventually pull off with it.

[Lighter.5631]

not gonna lie tho, thief existence alone renders alot of manageable by decent player fun builds to completely torture unplayable

due to it's nature of low risk, easy in and out style on high damage build

i often think pvp will be so much more fun and vivd without thief, all kinds of non toxic non tank builds will flourish.

now everybody just forced to run tank, like how it always has been, no fun. the entirety of the point is basically around if you are sustain enough for thieves..because you can never out kill them by engaging first...

only thief go to you, you can't go to the thief..that's why its so safe for thieves

as long as you are sustain enough for thief, everything else is manageable..

ever wondered why thief never take off shadowstep, for maybe another stunbreak utility that gives extra block and CC for enhanced combat capability..

because hit and run and reset is way too good for power builds, compare to any "have to commit all the way" "if you mess up your cooldown you dead" builds

Edited June 19 by Lighter.5631

[Vinny.7260]

I think all it takes to fix Axe is require the axes to only spawn if they successfully hit something. It'll immediately get rid of all the the kerfuffles people are having with axe. Immediately removes the advantage of being able to spawn Axe 2 without hitting something. No need to raise initiative cost, reduce damage, nuffin'. Just make it so the axes spawn ONLY if it hits a target. Gets rid of the shenanigans like setting up with Axe 1 on a ledge to hide the axes.

19 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

You can noscope gs3 but it's a 1.0 coefficient, it does nothing unless you stacked might\vuln from gs2. Even under the best circumstances you'll hit your 2k AoE and that's it. 

This reminds me, can Mirror Blade finally bounce off its own clone it spawns again... I miss it. I miss it so much.

 

TL;DR: Make axes only spawn if they hit something. Also I miss old Mirror Blade interactions.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

How about we double all the axe initiative costs? That should fix everything.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

11 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

> "those are the skills you should use to handle axe thief 🙂"
> blind will deny them
> "then use LoS to stop the blind 🙂"
> then LoS is denying them

Azure.

I didn't say use LoS. 

But even if you do use Los, you can still precast the skills by moving out of LoS when the thief is leaping

Any means you wish to use to not be blinded by the projectile that only blinds you if you are targeted while the thief is setting up their field works.

I feel like this is some kind of ploy to get me to point out how to beat things.

2 hours ago, Vinny.7260 said:

I think all it takes to fix Axe is require the axes to only spawn if they successfully hit something. It'll immediately get rid of all the the kerfuffles people are having with axe.

We talking per axe or any axe? because Axe 2 isn't gonna hit anything 99% of the time, neither is Axe 1. 

at best you're gonna get 1 axe per cast on single target. given they only last 10 seconds and are range limited, this seems silly.

this would be fine if axe 2 spawned 3 axes on any hit. If not though, hard pass.

Edited June 19 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Vinny.7260]

34 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

We talking per axe or any axe? because Axe 2 isn't gonna hit anything 99% of the time, neither is Axe 1. 

at best you're gonna get 1 axe per cast on single target. given they only last 10 seconds and are range limited, this seems silly.

this would be fine if axe 2 spawned 3 axes on any hit. If not though, hard pass.

Axe 2 just has to hit something, any of the axes will keep all of them.

Axe 1 just needs to hit something, they can improve tracking if necessary.

Axe stealth attack can be the same as it is.

 

If it ends up being an issue that axes don't generate at all or feel impossible to keep up. Increase the damage Axe 3 to +50% or something instead of +33%. I guess it would be an overall init nerf since it would force Axe 2 spam to be the reliable way to proc max Axe 3 damage. Could increase the duration of the axes, make the axes more obvious for enemies.

 

I just know when I've memed axe I don't really have to pay attention to landing my axes and can just meme into walls and Axe 3. That's the main interaction that needs looked at. It'd be like clones being stealthed with superspeed and no visual tell aside from a mustard yellow icon on the mesmer's status bar. And having those clones before anyone showed up. Virtuoso's compromise is having the cast time.

 

One thing I'd consider instead is Axe 3 having like 0.001s of reveal to give people a way to react. It's hard to differ who is the target of the Axe 3, the compromise can be stealth removal... Aside from the dev-side of things like adding a marker, something like that.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 minute ago, Vinny.7260 said:

Axe 2 just has to hit something, any of the axes will keep all of them.

Axe 1 just needs to hit something, they can improve tracking if necessary.

Axe stealth attack can be the same as it is.

fine by me

Quote

If it ends up being an issue that axes don't generate at all or feel impossible to keep up. Increase the damage Axe 3 to +50% or something instead of +33%.

theyre gonna hate that ngl

Quote

I guess it would be an overall init nerf since it would force Axe 2 spam to be the reliable way to proc max Axe 3 damage.

Sure would, but I'm willing to do the extra work if the design accounts for the fact that axes now need to hit something and adjust the init cost or skill behavior appropriately

Quote

I just know when I've memed axe I don't really have to pay attention to landing my axes and can just meme into walls and Axe 3. That's the main interaction that needs looked at. It'd be like clones being stealthed with superspeed and no visual tell aside from a mustard yellow icon on the mesmer's status bar. And having those clones before anyone showed up.

didnt have to pay attention because the axes barely do any damage when you land them anyway, then continue to do no damage until they are used. The fact that you can meme them into walls then do something else is probably the whole point of the design.

Quote

Virtuoso's compromise is having the cast time.

all the axes have cast time when setting up and launching and a visual and auditory tell but yknow

Quote

One thing I'd consider instead is Axe 3 having like 0.001s of reveal to give people a way to react. It's hard to differ who is the target of the Axe 3, the compromise can be stealth removal... Aside from the dev-side of things like adding a marker, something like that.

This is the only design change I 100% agree with. it is difficult to keep track of how many axes are around you, despite knowing there is a thief nearby setting up. an indication of who the axes are going to fly to (probably arrows pointing to that target while the thief is casting) would be fine. 

I will also 100% use this to bait dodges. 

 

 

[Terrorhuz.4695]

7 hours ago, Vinny.7260 said:

This reminds me, can Mirror Blade finally bounce off its own clone it spawns again

still bugged buddy

[Vinny.7260]

13 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

still bugged buddy

I miss not having to blink onto people to get the maximum value out of my MB combos :c

 

14 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

didnt have to pay attention because the axes barely do any damage when you land them anyway, then continue to do no damage until they are used. The fact that you can meme them into walls then do something else is probably the whole point of the design.

> Questionable design choices on the dev's part then, but I think we've talked about that before LOL.

all the axes have cast time when setting up and launching and a visual and auditory tell but yknow

> Hardly matters when you can just go into stealth and cast Axe 2 into a wall twice to get max damage (for Axe 2, Axe 1 TECHNICALLY has a higher coefficient per axe) and then cast Axe 3 while still in stealth.

I will also 100% use this to bait dodges. 

> They'd have to be smart about placing the marker when the animation ends rather than at the beginning, slippery slope when giving professions that can stealth ways to bait dodges with minimal consequences. (Such as Signet of Humility having an icon on the target starting next week. All the panic dodges it'll induce).

 

 

 

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

On 6/18/2024 at 11:00 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Isn't it a 180-radius blind? With optional projectile follow up / combo with itself deal?

I guess if you are outside of it then it isn't 'mandatory' but if you are in melee good luck not getting blinded with that skill.  Multiple times.  

Pistol 5 drops a smoke field and fires a ranged projectile at your target, inflicting blind

[Flowki.7194]

 Axe thief would just be a meme spec if the meta wasn't so roam based, with a completel lack of reason to play supports, multiple of which hard counter this kind of bs.

Edited June 21 by Flowki.7194