Spear Me the Details: Mesmer, Revenant, and Elementalist

[ShatteredStars.6548]

19 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

They all look nice, but I don't like Elementalist's spear's mechanic.

Most Elementalists already flip through all four Attunements on a regular basis, so there's no need for an additional gimmick.

they dont have a flip mechanic, they only change attunements, a flip mechanic changes the first skill to another one on the same skill, ele dont have that, if they do, forget what i just said.

Edited June 21 by vrauns.3215

[Gaiawolf.8261]

56 minutes ago, Karaha.3290 said:

So your problem is to remember how a skill works?

Not just the skill descriptions this time, the triggers and buff/extra effect descriptions too. Now in isolation of course this doesn't sound too complex, but it's added on top of all the other mechanics going on that you might have to track. Mantra charges, final charge effects, pages, skill CDs, hidden skill CDs for tome skills that you can't see, page regeneration rates, page costs, trait effects on skills and other procs, trait ICDs that you can't see, skill descriptions for two weapon sets, utility skills and three tomes, and now illuminated skill triggers, and illuminated buff descriptions. 

Mesmers have their own specific things they have to know and track, like what the heck their clones are doing at any given time, how many are attached to each target and which will poof and need to be replaced, and two different effects for each mantra, and others.

So no, nothing wildly new or complex on its own, but they all add up to more things going on that you have to memorize and track, taking your attention away from the fun stuff happening on the battlefield.

It's just that they're making an already complex game more complex. Now if they want to simplify some of the existing mechanics to make room for these new complexities, I'd probably be okay with that. Some of them are kind of cool, but others just come off as gimmicky to me.

Edited June 21 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Karaha.3290]

30 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Not just the skill descriptions this time, the triggers and buff/extra effect descriptions too.

I think you read too much into this.
I call it 99% safe that in the end it will be -> the enhanced version is better and you want that over the normal one.
Maybe it will be like Untamed mechanic for hammer, which is broken down to "unleashed skills 2-5 for dmg, normal skill 3+5 for CC", which is not too complicated either.

 

36 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Now in isolation of course this doesn't sound too complex, but it's added on top of all the other mechanics going on that you might have to track. Mantra charges, final charge effects, pages, skill CDs, hidden skill CDs for tome skills that you can't see, page regeneration rates, page costs, trait effects on skills and other procs, trait ICDs that you can't see, skill descriptions for two weapon sets, utility skills and three tomes, and now illuminated skill triggers, and illuminated buff descriptions. 

Most of that is "cooldowns" and the rest is "skill effects". It's not that much.
You try to make it sound the other way as you say. You try to make it sound overall complex, while it actually is not.
Know your skills, that's given after playing a bit. No memorization needed.
Know your cooldowns, that's the only thing you actually have to remember. However, a) that's also given when you play for a while and b) once you have a rotation, this problem solved automatically.

 

45 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Mesmers have their own specific things they have to know and track, like what the heck their clones are doing at any given time, how many are attached to each target and which will poof and need to be replaced, and two different effects for each mantra, and others.

Honestly, when did you ever had to check what your clones are doing?
You have to know how many are alive, which is what you have that big dots for. But you don't have to know what your clones are doing. Never.
There is no mechanic bound to that and you can't control it anyways.

Sorry, but stop exaggerating.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

10 minutes ago, Karaha.3290 said:

I think you read too much into this.
I call it 99% safe that in the end it will be -> the enhanced version is better and you want that over the normal one.

Sure if it's just a straight buff to existing effects. It seems like that's what we're getting on the elementalists spear skill number five. For Helio Rush they stated it will add resolution, so if you want to use your spear to upkeep resolution on people, you'll have to do some planning to make sure you have the effect beforehand, remember which skill gives resolution on the buff, and then position yourself properly for the dash. That's a little bit of extra complexity there, especially if you need to time it.

The game already has a pretty good hybrid action system. I just want to lean into that more than skill bar management. I find it more fun, but sometimes I find myself having a looking at the skill bar too often and miss something important. Even the meta players have had to come up with workarounds to manage hidden ICDs.

[Bealis.6023]

I know this kinda a "boomer" take, but that red circle with Rev and element circles under Ele is too much, too big. In-game it wont look this cool (fun editing btw🙂), but rather messy and blinding. It appears to be one piece of feedback that still needs to reach Anet. So the winner this round for me is Mesmer, feels most impactful👍

[Kris Knives.8513]

Definitely saved the best for last.

Revenant:  This one is very curious.  Some unusual abilities like land mines here, seem interesting.  Not sure how this gameplay loop will work out.  It seems all build around the one attack which might end up making this a little overly repetitive but with the incentive to build up charges with the other skills I think it will be fun.  Very curious to try this one.  I always felt rev has a sold theme in theory, but always struggled to capture the mechanical feel of diving in and out of the mist brings ghosts of the past with you.  The Warband for example just feels like what it is, a well with some extra animation.  I'm hopeful with all the movement attacks this spear in addition to being mechanically cool it really captures the thematic vibe in the same way Vindicator did with it mist leap.

Mesmer:  The post almost sounds nervous about this one.  I like the positing theme and the pay-off sounds very much worth the trouble, but I do wonder if giving mesmer one more thing to worry about will work out.  I definitely think I'll try this first with the more strait forward virtuoso.  Looks very cool and I cannot wait to try out that phantom.  This one might be all over the place.  I like the idea that this might be a more surgical weapon, one you flip to when you've stunned or pinned own a foe (or just fighting a stationary 2-arms & a head boss) for massive damage but then flip back to your other weapon.  I don't mind more nitch weapons for classes that can actually switch weapons provided the pay off is worth the trouble though it seems like those are pretty hard to pull off as we only have a few like Warrior Longsword and they don't seem super popular.

Elementalist:  This is by far the weapon I am most excited about.  The visuals are great, it feels a much needed role and sounds like it has exciting gameplay encouraging you to tactically decide when to stay at range and when to dive in close.  Exactly what I was hoping for with Ele spear.  It seems like it has a natural synergy already with Tempest and I'm extremely curious to see how this will play with Weaver.  Hard to say from the preview if this will be a viable Catalyst weapon or not but I'm hopeful there too.

-----------------------
Weapons balance and design seems to have tilted towards being well rounded.  Most weapons have at least 1 CC move, a self-buff and a movement skill these days.   This means the three primary factors for a weapon, outside of mandatory class mechanics like phantasms, are only:
What is its range?
Is it DPS or Support?
Is it Strike or Condi?

I think this has had a positive effect on design with designers focused more the unique gameplay experience each weapon is supposed to provide giving weapons unique mechanics and styles.  The only real negative to this approach is it disadvantages off-hand weapons like Torches, Shields, Focuses and Warhorns which struggle compared to two-handed weapons or paired weapons which can give a more robust experience and dive more deeply into whatever the weapons gimmick is, leaving those weapons in an awkward state.  (I would personally say Ele Warhorn is the only breakout off-hand weapon ever with honorable mention to Guardian Torch.)  Since Spears are all two-handed weapons these seemed to have side stepped that issue and the result is a batch of weapons whom all sounds like they are all taking the spear in interesting directions.  If designing 9 Spears was a challenge, the teams seems to have met it because at least form the previews, none of these seem samey or just more of the same except maybe warrior (just a little bit).  I hope I still feel that way after getting my hands on them in the beta.

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, vrauns.3215 said:

they dont have a flip mechanic, they only change attunements, a flip mechanic changes the first skill to another one on the same skill, ele dont have that, if they do, forget what i just said.

I obvious meant that they flip through Attunements like one would flip through magazines in real life.

I don't even know how the context would make you think I referred to flip-over mechanics.

 

[Karaha.3290]

6 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

 Helio Rush they stated it will add resolution, so if you want to use your spear to upkeep resolution on people, you'll have to do some planning to make sure you have the effect beforehand, remember which skill gives resolution on the buff, and then position yourself properly for the dash. That's a little bit of extra complexity there, especially if you need to time it.

522 easy...
As I said, you are exaggerating.

 

6 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

The game already has a pretty good hybrid action system. I just want to lean into that more than skill bar management.

I mean, that's exactly what the new mechanics do. They bring more action/interaction to your weapon skills.
Instead of just pressing 1-5 off cooldown, you get the ability to deal greater dmg (or better support) by paying a bit attention to what you are doing.

This is nothing new actually. Think of Ranger greatsword or Warrior hammer where your skill 5 recharges skill 2. Or Ranger greatsword 2 that causes the next skill to deal more damage.

 

7 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Even the meta players have had to come up with workarounds to manage hidden ICDs.

It's automatically managed by fixed rotations. Same will happen to the new spear mechanics.

If you are talking about meta gameplay, the new weapons will be exactly the same as the old ones -> follow the fixed rotation and everything will be managed automatically.
If you fall out or rotation, restart at any given point and you are fine.

 

[Randulf.7614]

On 6/20/2024 at 11:55 PM, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

Sigh... elementalist spear is "longe range" but requires you to stand in the circle of the #5 skill to max its potency, thereby turning the skill into close range. I knew the devs would k i t t e n this up.

PS... it looks like 900 range from the video. Longe range is 1200. We don't need another 900 range weapon. I'll reserve judgement til the specifics come out, but initially I'm infuriated by close range requirement of #5 skill.

Unless the circle placement is only for the "charging", and the skill goes off at range, where the target can be outside the circle...

Apparently (I haven't watched it), the livestream showed range to be 1200

[HotDelirium.7984]

19 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Give us interesting individual skill effects like the elementalist spear and the guardian greatsword and the mesmer greatsword and staff. Not play minigames that require memorizing trigger or effect conditions and rotations like guardian spear, mesmer spear, and elementalist pistol. They don't have to do anything new, they are already doing it. Just do that more instead of relying on complex gimmicks.

Also if they want to add neat skill interactions, have that be something that pops up on the field, like skill combos they already do, or skill graphics like how the guardian's Ignition symbol ignites or my example for elementalist circle, or something that surrounds the character, like auras already do, preferably only visible for the character that needs it. Again, nothing new, they are already doing it, just do it more instead of adding a slue of effects on the skillbar that I have to memorize or look away to see if I have them.

Yes, I agree with this too. A weapon or espec that allows you to specializes in a single element for certain tasks would be nice. I actually created a concept for that in one of the theory threads.

You will still have a "game button" budget to consider. You COULD have skill 2-5 do very powerful things but to balance they would probably have longer cooldowns and you'll be spamming auto the majority of the time. You gotta pick your poison.

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

34 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Apparently (I haven't watched it), the livestream showed range to be 1200

CMC said it like 1200 times during the livestream. so much so that Twitch chat kept asking him what the range was, in jest,  because he said it so much... i think he did so because of all our comments on the forums asking for a 1200 ranged DPS weapon for the last decade-ish

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, Karaha.3290 said:

522 easy...
As I said, you are exaggerating.

 

I mean, that's exactly what the new mechanics do. They bring more action/interaction to your weapon skills.
Instead of just pressing 1-5 off cooldown, you get the ability to deal greater dmg (or better support) by paying a bit attention to what you are doing.

This is nothing new actually. Think of Ranger greatsword or Warrior hammer where your skill 5 recharges skill 2. Or Ranger greatsword 2 that causes the next skill to deal more damage.

 

It's automatically managed by fixed rotations. Same will happen to the new spear mechanics.

If you are talking about meta gameplay, the new weapons will be exactly the same as the old ones -> follow the fixed rotation and everything will be managed automatically.
If you fall out or rotation, restart at any given point and you are fine.

 

I merely offered my opinion on the new spear mechanics. You decided to comment on them and explore more. I even stated my issues were miniscule and not very noticeable in isolation. But they add up to a complexity that I sometimes find overwhelming when playing. That is not an exaggeration, as opinions are not fixed values, nor are they facts. They are merely expressions of my experience with the game. If I say I find the game complex enough, it's due to my interactions in play, not some fallacy I'm trying to fabricate for reasons.

Oh and to go back to an earlier comment I missed: yes, if you don't check what your clones are doing and mimic their actions at key points during a fight, you're a sitting duck against anyone with half a brain. Good mesmers rely on clones and their behaviors to outmaneuver opponents. You also need to make sure you manage those resources so you don't find yourself without a decoy and get focused down faster than a soulbeast can say, "Sic 'Em!"

18 minutes ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

You will still have a "game button" budget to consider. You COULD have skill 2-5 do very powerful things but to balance they would probably have longer cooldowns and you'll be spamming auto the majority of the time. You gotta pick your poison.

Auto-attack on a 101 APM class? You mean like, 3 auto-attacks per minute? But even so, you don't need gimmicks to avoid AA or raise APM or have something interesting to do. Some builds already have a lot to do and/or have very high APM with existing weapons that don't have these weapon-specific gimmicks.

[Ashen.2907]

On 6/20/2024 at 5:57 PM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

keep mechanics on the battlefield, and not on the skillbar/UI.

Very well put.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Elementalist spear is "long-range".  I assume 1200?  Or hopefully 1500?

[Linken.6345]

7 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Elementalist spear is "long-range".  I assume 1200?  Or hopefully 1500?

5 hours ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

5 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Apparently (I haven't watched it), the livestream showed range to be 1200

CMC said it like 1200 times during the livestream. so much so that Twitch chat kept asking him what the range was, in jest,  because he said it so much... i think he did so because of all our comments on the forums asking for a 1200 ranged DPS weapon for the last decade-ish

[Velkix.6825]

I don't know why people would think Ele spear could even be good..

It might be good at beating bots.

Edit: Weaver skill 5 would be pretty problematic as well. How to recast a non-existing skill?

Edited June 22 by Velkix.6825
Add content

[ShatteredStars.6548]

On 6/20/2024 at 6:55 PM, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

Sigh... elementalist spear is "longe range" but requires you to stand in the circle of the #5 skill to max its potency, thereby turning the skill into close range. I knew the devs would k i t t e n this up.

PS... it looks like 900 range from the video. Longe range is 1200. We don't need another 900 range weapon. I'll reserve judgement til the specifics come out, but initially I'm infuriated by close range requirement of #5 skill.

Unless the circle placement is only for the "charging", and the skill goes off at range, where the target can be outside the circle...

This to me is nothing but word salad.

[ShatteredStars.6548]

22 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I obvious meant that they flip through Attunements like one would flip through magazines in real life.

I don't even know how the context would make you think I referred to flip-over mechanics.

 

you literally said flip through mechanics, you worded it wrong, also funny because that's the new mechanic for ele on the last skill, not a new mechanic in general.

Edited June 22 by vrauns.3215

[Karaha.3290]

14 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I merely offered my opinion on the new spear mechanics. You decided to comment on them and explore more. I even stated my issues were miniscule and not very noticeable in isolation. But they add up to a complexity that I sometimes find overwhelming when playing. That is not an exaggeration, as opinions are not fixed values, nor are they facts. They are merely expressions of my experience with the game. If I say I find the game complex enough, it's due to my interactions in play, not some fallacy I'm trying to fabricate for reasons.

Oh and to go back to an earlier comment I missed: yes, if you don't check what your clones are doing and mimic their actions at key points during a fight, you're a sitting duck against anyone with half a brain. Good mesmers rely on clones and their behaviors to outmaneuver opponents. You also need to make sure you manage those resources so you don't find yourself without a decoy and get focused down faster than a soulbeast can say, "Sic Em".

You indeed exaggerate. All the "complexity" you keep arguing with are trifles. Thousands of people master them perfectly fine every day. New things like "stay a bit away from the enemy" or "hit an enemy" to enhance your next skill really is no big deal.

Neither is the "the next skill does xyz" from Ele 3. As said, we already had this mechanic in weapons for years. It's not a big deal.

All in all the new weapons has the potential to be more effective, if the player is willing to pay a bit more attention and that's a good thing. If you don't like that or just want to braindead spam skills, that's fine, you can still do that. But people who want more have to option to do more. 

 

[Karaha.3290]

1 hour ago, vrauns.3215 said:

you literally said flip through mechanics, you worded it wrong, also funny because that's the new mechanic for ele on the last skill, not a new mechanic in general.

Their original comment was:

On 6/20/2024 at 7:57 PM, Fueki.4753 said:

Most Elementalists already flip through all four Attunements on a regular basis

To be honest, I don't see how you could read using flip skills or flipping through whatever mechanics into this.

They never even mentioned flip skills. And they mentioned "mechanics" only a single time in "I don't like the new ele spear mechanic".

 

 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

47 minutes ago, Karaha.3290 said:

You indeed exaggerate. All the "complexity" you keep arguing with are trifles. Thousands of people master them perfectly fine every day. New things like "stay a bit away from the enemy" or "hit an enemy" to enhance your next skill really is no big deal.

Neither is the "the next skill does xyz" from Ele 3. As said, we already had this mechanic in weapons for years. It's not a big deal.

All in all the new weapons has the potential to be more effective, if the player is willing to pay a bit more attention and that's a good thing. If you don't like that or just want to braindead spam skills, that's fine, you can still do that. But people who want more have to option to do more. 

 

Everyone has their own experiences. Glad it's easier for you than me. I still enjoy the game very much, but there are certainly things I enjoy less than others. 

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, vrauns.3215 said:

you literally said flip through mechanics, you worded it wrong, also funny because that's the new mechanic for ele on the last skill, not a new mechanic in general.

Have you never flipped through a book or magazine? Because it should have been obvious that I mean that kind of flipping.

[Kheron.9062]

Rev spear looking dead on arrival between the abyssmal cast times, poor range, expensive skills that are meant to be spammed (5 casts of Raze on a boss to stack it would be 50 energy) and only a single condi so no cover condi for pvp/wvw

[DeathPanel.8362]

50 minutes ago, Kheron.9062 said:

Rev spear looking dead on arrival between the abyssmal cast times, poor range, expensive skills that are meant to be spammed (5 casts of Raze on a boss to stack it would be 50 energy) and only a single condi so no cover condi for pvp/wvw

Depends on what the condi numbers are.  If each of those big hits applies a bunch of damaging conditions, it might be viable as a condi melee weapon.

[Karaha.3290]

34 minutes ago, Kheron.9062 said:

Rev spear looking dead on arrival between the abyssmal cast times, poor range, expensive skills that are meant to be spammed (5 casts of Raze on a boss to stack it would be 50 energy) and only a single condi so no cover condi for pvp/wvw

I see torment, chill and slow on Rev spear.
600 range seems fine to me and cast time don't seem that bad for a 2h weapon (skill 2 and 3 are the same as shortbow).

Energy costs indeed look kinda high, but a) in the past Anet always set energy costs too high for Rev and later lowered them. Feedback from the beta is important here I guess.
And b) if the costs stay high, this might lead to a playstyle where you don't swap weapon and legend always together, but stay at spear for a longer time. Like swaping away from spear every other legend swap or so. This could bring a little variety into Rev rotations.

All in all that's just number tweaks, so rather easy to adjust.