Revenant Spear Needs Fixing

[Spudzie.5486]

After watching the stream there are a few things that became apparent when looking at the Revenant spear. 
 

1. Animations are SO SLOW. From the auto attack to every skill. Weapon is way TOO SLOW. 
 

2. 600 range is awful. They did mention adjusting it to maybe 900 which is fine for a hybrid. 
 

3. Torment only? This thing has 0 cover condis only torment. This means that in competitive  game modes where condi cleanses are everywhere, you’ll be doing almost 0 damage. If it applied just 1 more condi it would be instantly better. 

[SWLDguitar.5746]

I think the thing that hurts Spear the most is Skill 5 being ground targeted.  This weapon will cause carpal tunnel with the skill constantly being refreshed.  Pretty much ruins Spear for WvW/sPvP, since it's already hard enough to hit your big damage with evades, blinds and blocks/aegis, now you need to contend with leaps, blinks, shadowsteps and your own ability to place the skill properly.  ALSO condi cleanse. 

 

Highly disappointed.  3 weapons now that need help (Hammer, Scepter and now Spear). Lets GO Anet, clean this _ _ _ _ up!

Edited June 21 by SWLDguitar.5746

[Tokizo.8917]

20 minutes ago, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

I think the thing that hurts Spear the most is Skill 5 being ground targeted.  This weapon will cause carpal tunnel with the skill constantly being refreshed.  Pretty much ruins Spear for WvW/sPvP, since it's already hard enough to hit your big damage with evades, blinds and blocks, now you need to contend with leaps, blinks, shadowsteps and your own ability to place the skill properly.  ALSO condi cleanse. 

 

Highly disappointed.  3 weapons now that need help (Hammer, Scepter and now Spear). Lets GO Anet, clean this _ _ _ _ up!

You mean hammer rework for PVE? Because it is currently meta for PVP

[Angesombre.4630]

4 hours ago, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

Je pense que ce qui fait le plus mal à Spear, c'est que la compétence 5 soit ciblée au sol. Cette arme provoquera le canal carpien et la compétence sera constamment actualisée. Cela ruine à peu près Spear pour le McM/sPvP, puisqu'il est déjà assez difficile d'infliger de gros dégâts avec des esquives, des blinds et des blocages, vous devez maintenant faire face aux sauts, aux clignements, aux pas de l'ombre et à votre propre capacité à placer la compétence correctement. AUSSI le nettoyage des condi. 

 

Très déçu . 3 armes qui ont maintenant besoin d'aide (Marteau, Sceptre et maintenant Lance). Allons-y Anet, nettoyons ça _ _ _ _ !

It's the 3 points raised in the first post, slow casting time, damage and torment, and why not another one like burning for example.

I'd add the mace to your list since the modification, the 4 on the axe a bit too much damage reduction on the 3 first GS skills and the swords that are a bit weaker than some other weapons.

Edited June 22 by Angesombre.4630

[SWLDguitar.5746]

1 minute ago, Tokizo.8917 said:

You mean hammer rework for PVE? Because it is currently meta for PVP

Yes.  

[Shagie.7612]

I don't really understand where it's supposed to fit in currently.
Even if they increase it to 900 and it replaces shortbow, what did it add to condi builds? Condi rev builds are clearly suffering and have been for a very long time.
You'd still function exactly the same as currently, just with a large pokey stick instead of something that flings smaller pokey sticks? I mean I guess that's cool if you don't enjoy bows and arrows, but it's not really helping with what condi rev lacks.

I think it's also going to be a troublesome weapon when it comes to the energy costs required to maintain the ramped up buff, and the usage of utilities or upkeep.
I don't think energy lends itself well to having what should be an elite specialization mechanic on the weapons, in the way that it works on something like Ranger maces.

[Tokizo.8917]

5 minutes ago, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

Yes.  

fair.

 

Generally i agree with this post. The animations looks very good but i don't know who this weapon is for. Probably Condi Quick Herald and Renegade. But than it needs to be at least 900 range, faster and dmg equivalent to mace/axe. so basically what this post said.

Also giving that you need to power one skill i am fearing if you will have enough energy to do that. The condi rotaion is already pretty tight

[Tokizo.8917]

3 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I don't really understand where it's supposed to fit in currently.
Even if they increase it to 900 and it replaces shortbow, what did it add to condi builds? Condi rev builds are clearly suffering and have been for a very long time.
You'd still function exactly the same as currently, just with a large pokey stick instead of something that flings smaller pokey sticks? I mean I guess that's cool if you don't enjoy bows and arrows, but it's not really helping with what condi rev lacks.

I think it's also going to be a troublesome weapon when it comes to the energy costs required to maintain the ramped up buff, and the usage of utilities or upkeep.
I don't think energy lends itself well to having what should be an elite specialization mechanic on the weapons, in the way that it works on something like Ranger maces.

I think they maybe wanted to go full ranged condi with weapon swap

[Shagie.7612]

6 minutes ago, Tokizo.8917 said:

I think they maybe wanted to go full ranged condi with weapon swap

Maybe? But with no projectile denial, no defensive capabilities like blinds, blocks/aegis, or cleanses, one very small dash, and 900 range at best, you'll just die if you play spear/shortbow to both range and any decently mobile melee.

Which is exactly what happens if you try to play condi dps currently in any competitive mode. Especially condi ren. That's WITH shield or staff, too.

[Tokizo.8917]

33 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Maybe? But with no projectile denial, no defensive capabilities like blinds, blocks/aegis, or cleanses, one very small dash, and 900 range at best, you'll just die if you play spear/shortbow to both range and any decently mobile melee.

Which is exactly what happens if you try to play condi dps currently in any competitive mode. Especially condi ren. That's WITH shield or staff, too.

Oh sry. I forgot to add: For full condi ranged pve builds. Except for the mine skill, which i don't know if it is any good, i don't see them thinking about this weapon as pvp at all. it really has nothing for PVP

[Spudzie.5486]

 

[Vekaiel.8493]

It looks as slow or slower then hammer without the range, damage and defensive capabilities. Ramp up is bad on revenant, unless you exclusively use that weapon 90% of the time but even then it as to be worth it. Mace + axe is quicker and require less energy and probably do more damage. Shortbow has more condition, longer range and more reliable cc.

In the current state from what I see from the tooltips, they will need to reduce the energy cost AND the cooldown by half to even be considered as a viable weapon. In a rotation you won't have enough energy to ramp this up to his full strength. #4 need to pulse immobilize if it even wants a chance to land that cc at the end. #5 should add more damaging conditions as it ramp up like confusion and burning instead of more torment. #5 could have and evade while casting to justify the long casting time.

If they want this to be hybrid weapon, add vulnerability to autoattack and the melee attack chain should add another damaging condition.

It is a cosplay weapon, not actually useful comparing the the other alternatives and animations so slow you are just a sitting duck if you are attempting to use it outside pve.

Edited June 22 by Vekaiel.8493
adding suggestion

[Angesombre.4630]

So, having taken the time to look at all the competencies and compare them to the revenant, I'm going to make a little summary and try to pick up the main lines of the stream. The slow Revenant seen by many on the stream is an observation (3 skills out of 5 with a cast of 1s or more). Still too much torment, the skills have almost the same CD as the other classes with the exception of 5 so we pay more energy which is not valid when the other classes have almost the same CD as us and no other blow with often better skills. Short range and low damage)

So a weapon below the mace/axe, the bow and all other revenant weapons except the scepter, which isn't so bad, but the spear is almost at its level. 2 extension 2 crappy weapons for the revenant.

So to get us to accept the spear, they risk nerfing yet more weapons unless they finally modify this abomination.

Yes, all the budget is spent on animations, compared to the elem which has pretty animations and a real spear.

Edited June 22 by Angesombre.4630

[frazazel.7501]

The animations are really pretty, though.

[Tobias.4975]

1 hour ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

 Still too much torment, the skills have almost the same CD as the other classes with the exception of 5 so we pay more energy which is not valid when the other classes have almost the same CD as us and no other blow with often better skills. Short range and low damage)

Thats the point, wasn't the design of revenant ment to have short CD for the energy-cost?

[Yasai.3549]

I'm convinced after watching the showcase that the devs design and balance based on the DPS golem.

[Angesombre.4630]

29 minutes ago, Tobias.4975 said:

Thats the point, wasn't the design of revenant ment to have short CD for the energy-cost?

Yes, at first, but in the end, we're moving more and more towards CDs, especially for weapons that have almost the same duration as other professions, so we could ask ourselves the question: if the CD is equivalent to other profession weapons, is it still doing its job at the beginning? On the spear stream, skill 2 has a CD of 6s, skill 3 (10s), skill 4 (15s) and skill 5 (15s).

[Yasai.3549]

2 hours ago, frazazel.7501 said:

The animations are really pretty, though.

Oh they're very pretty alright, but it looks like the character has a permanent Slow condition affecting it. 🫠
Imagine if this went live and got hit by an actual Slow condition lol. 

Other than animation needing speed ups, I think the super long lag after each Spear 5 cast is largely unneeded. They should have made it a quick animation but leave the marked area to detonate after a delay, like how Scourges summon their Shades. Would be excellent for Spear users to kite while leaving areas which detonate after a delay to cover their tracks. 

[Ephyr.2175]

Does anyone see using Spear with Vindicator (Spear of Archemorus also applies torment only) or with Legendary Dwarf Stance, Legendary Assassin Stance? Why do we need another weapon that only works with 1 build? Wouldn't a better solution be to remake Traits in such a way that they affect the type of damage a weapon deals?

[Yasai.3549]

15 minutes ago, Ephyr.2175 said:

Does anyone see using Spear with Vindicator (Spear of Archemorus also applies torment only) or with Legendary Dwarf Stance, Legendary Assassin Stance? Why do we need another weapon that only works with 1 build? Wouldn't a better solution be to remake Traits in such a way that they affect the type of damage a weapon deals?

Realistically it's supposed to be a Condi+Power hybrid weapon, meaning you can build it either way. 

And no, relying on  traits to affect weapons just makes weapons bad or traits useless without a weapon. The weapon just has to be improved. 

Edited June 22 by Yasai.3549

[Kydar Schattendolch.6879]

I think, everything is said to this weapon....

[Polar.8634]

I don't like slowness and having only torment for damage, but ground targeting can be very strong, especially if animations are faster. 

As it is now it is PvE exclusive weapon just like scepter. 

[AllNightPlayer.1286]

17 hours ago, Spudzie.5486 said:

2. 600 range is awful. They did mention adjusting it to maybe 900 which is fine for a hybrid.

It was the same with necromancer’s axe. 600 was so useless for ranged combat, yet it took them years to go to 900 at least.
Though, I’m still surprised, they’re doing the same mistake again.

Edited June 22 by AllNightPlayer.1286

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

Considering it only has one damaging condi, honestly, might as well just remove the torment and make it a pure power weapon.

HOWEVER. My actual biggest concern with this weapon (other than numbers cause those can be adjusted and tuned):

The bread-and-butter skill being on skill 5 AND ground targetted will also make this incredibly unergonomic to use. Assuming the default controls, which a lot of people use, you most likely have to let go of the D key to reach over to 5, which heavily impairs your movement. Now, normally this isn't much of an issue on other weapons / classes since a quick dip is usually not an issue, but considering the mechanics of this skill, it means your finger is gonna be on that key a lot, severely limiting your ability to strafe correctly. One of the reasons most spammable skills are usually on the 2 and 3 keys is that they're easier to reach with the same finger you use for forward movement, which can be covered by either autorunning or holding both mouse buttons.

I feel like the order of skills should be changed, similar to how Guardian's Greatsword was shuffled very early on in the game:

Skill 2 should be Abyssal Raze. Full stop. If this is our bread-and-butter and we're gonna be recharging it constantly it should be front and center. I know revenant skills are ordered by Cooldown / Energy cost, but that just goes into how much energy this skill is costing already (10 energy is insane for a spammable skill).

Skills 3 / 4 Should be Abyssal Force and Abyssal Blitz, can go in either position depending on the flow of the kit.

Skill 5 should be Abyssal Blot. If you're sticking with Torment, this skill should apply Inmobilize in some way.

[Nero.7369]

Stands and falls with numbers: cast time, energy cost, power coefficient, delay time of skill 5. 

Mechanics seems okayish.

I see the higher cd on the skills could be necessary because of cd reduction effects for skill 5.

Would be interesting if you can cast skill 5 behind you.

If it goes really wrong it could be another engi shortbow disaster.