Janthir Wilds Spear Beta Event Feedback: Necromancer

[Rubi Bayer.8493]

The beta event for spears has begun and is open to all players with an account in good standing! The event runs from June 27 at 9:00 a.m. Pacific Time until June 30 at 10:00 p.m. Pacific Time and we'd love to hear your feedback. Let us know what you think of the new weapon for necromancers in this thread!

[DragonFury.6243]

Spear don't have a role or identity poor usage in PvP because of the range (130) i though arena net devs like the multiplier of 60 why 130 and in PvE cant beat the sword or the great sword in damage

[Asum.4960]

LF generation seems too low. Skills and CD's don't flow well in my experience.

For PvE especially I'm not too keen on more carpal tunnel syndrome inducing flip over skills like 4*2 to reset the 2 every couple seconds - just make this one skill which teleports, generates shards and resets 2's CD on use.

Besides that, I don't really know what to do with it tbh. It's a clunkier Dagger, lower damage GS, lower mobility Sword without range - I honestly struggle to imagine when/where I'd like to use this, granted it doesn't turn out/gets tuned to be just mathematically far superior in damage to one or all of the existing options, invalidating those instead. 

How many mediocre to bad power weapons do you want to give Necro? If GS and Spear are the melee Power weapons and Sword the ranged Power option, at least completely rework things like Dagger, Axe, Staff, Focus and Warhorn to fill in the lacking Condi and Support landscape. 

With 7 Power Weapons, 2 Condi Weapons, 1 Hybrid Weapon, 0 Support weapons and a tooting Fear Horn, the class who's primary themes were Curses, (aka the games "Master of Conditions"), Minions and Blood Magic, is looking real strange these days.

Edited Friday at 12:55 PM by Asum.4960

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

In PVE with 25 stacks of might, Awaken the Pain, and full Ascended Berserker, Soul Shards hit for 1844 above 50% health and 2765 under 50% health.  Have not yet determined self-healing portion.

[Asum.4960]

9 minutes ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

In PVE with 25 stacks of might, Awaken the Pain, and full Ascended Berserker, Soul Shards hit for 1844 above 50% health and 2765 under 50% health.  Have not yet determined self-healing portion.

You can check the Soul Shard Tooltip in the combat log. Default healing seems to be ~860 (doubled at <50% HP). Damage is supposed to double against targets <50%, but as you experienced as well, it outputs less than that. Idk if the healing is similarly affected though.

E:

And as feared, it's classified as Siphon, so it can't Critically Strike, nor does it scale with any Strike Damage multipliers.

Edited Thursday at 05:43 PM by Asum.4960

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

13 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

You can check the Soul Shard Tooltip in the combat log. Default healing seems to be ~860 (doubled at <50% HP). Damage is supposed to double against targets <50%, but as you experienced as well, it outputs less than that. Idk if the healing is similarly affected though.

E:

And yes, it's called a Siphon, so it can't Critically Strike, nor does it scale with any Strike Damage multipliers.

1291 healing when under 50%.  Honestly, not a bad heal.  Healing power ratio above 50% is 15% per shard (860 with zero healing power, 905 with 300).  1392 when under 50% health with 450 healing power, so 22.5% per shard then.

But in both cases, it is NOT a 100% increase in effectiveness under 50%.

Edited Thursday at 05:53 PM by Drarnor Kunoram.5180

[felincyriac.5981]

may as well copy/paste swords feedback, "weak, clunky and slow", but now with a very limited range. 

[XECOR.2814]

where are the people who were on massive copium lmao.
Tell me im right about every single point. XDDDD

[DarkLancer.1902]

This kit is unreasonably powerful. Attack speed is well above average, and damage is obscenely high. My only complaint would be the lack of a ranged version of the auto-attack, but all the lack of such a thing does is mean that one cannot snap from one foe to the next instantly after killing the first. This should probably be trimmed down a bit.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

There is some awkwardness with cooldowns and alacrity.  If you do Perforate-Isolate/Distress-Perforate, then Isolate comes up off cooldown about 2 seconds before Perforate does.

[FalsePromises.6398]

I think spear is a very neat and fresh set, but the resource management and ranges could stand a little fine tuning. This is speaking from a strictly PvE perspective: I haven't tested in PvP or WvW, but I do feel like these points are worth saying. 

The spear ranges/area effects are the biggest pain point, since they clash in application. Spear 3, 4, 5 (Addle, Isolate/Distress, Extirpate) are very much up-in-your-face skills with short/melee ranges, but that clashes with skill 2 (Perforate), a semi-mid-range frontal cone. This makes for a clunky playstyle when you use 3, 4, and 5 while in the thick of it right in an enemy's face, but you need to back up to cast Perforate effectively, since it's a longer range poking cone attack that you need to line enemies up inside instead of a point blank area effect or melee strike like the rest. I think Addle could definitely be expanded into a bit of a poking wave attack to help build on that just-out-of-melee-range poke style, and maybe a slight range increase on Extirpate (maybe from 240 -> 300) so you don't have to position AS tightly to get the most of it, allowing you to worry more about how you position for Perforate. Isolate and Distress are hard ones to touch on range-wise though, being a teleport sequence. Don't know if there's a good answer for that one unless it becomes something that isn't a teleport any more. 

I also think soul shards could stand an uptick in generation and a downtick in being conditional. Distress (flip of Isolate, skill 4) is the only one that feels like a reliable soul shard generator because it generates all six immediately, but that could stand to be less up and down. Maybe changing Distress from (3 guaranteed on teleport and 3 more when isolated) to (4 guaranteed on teleport and 2 more when isolated) would make the skill a little less flakey, and to make sure this doesn't make Addle's bonus effects above four soul shards too strong or guaranteed, Addle could have its bonus effect threshold increased to five soul shards. Also, the soul shards generated from Addle and Extirpate could stand to be increased by one at least. As it stands, soul shards feel like they only come from Distress. If Extirpate granted 2 per target, it'd make it much easier to get more from the skill and increase its value as a soul shard generator, and Addle could stand to generate one more soul shard on the initial hit maybe just to top off Distress when a target isn't isolated. 

Soul shards also feel a little too short duration. Being 10 second duration when they can only be expelled via an 8 second cooldown skill seems a bit tight. Expanding that duration to 12 or 15 seconds would make soul shards feel way more comfortable, especially when you can't guarantee you'll be in melee range at the right moment before they expire. 

All that said, I'm definitely enjoying using spear as a faster paced alternative to greatsword that doesn't strictly put me directly in the thick of combat. I like the idea, and look forward to its future use. Props to the designers and everyone involved with it. 

[StraightPath.3972]

After some testing I feel spear needs some more time in the oven.
There are parts of it's kit which are a definite hits, but also parts which are misses.

The Good:

• Soul Shard numbers feel solid both healing and damage
• As does their scaling with either you or enemy get low
• Perforate animation and sound feel sick!
• The "tag" and then "port on demand" functionality of Isolate

The Bad:

• with sole exception of Isolate, Shard generation is a struggle in 1v1 which should be spear's forte
• Perforate Reset (+Shards) should be on Isolate(the spear throw & mark) not Distress (the port)
  If an enemy is right in front of me, chances are I just want a quick reset + Shards without wasting time on the port.
  Also with reset on Isolate I would get more options. I could tag a faraway mob while fighting in melee and then
  decide for myself what happens next - continue the fight I'm in, or port to next target in hopes of quick heal and a kill.
• no reset mechanics on a kill. The weapon is begging for Perforate cd reduction and Shards on scoring a kill!
• auto chain feels very, very basic. Very little going on here.

Overall the promise of spear is enticing, but the weapon really struggles generating it's own resource,
which for a bossing weapon should be rock solid even in most arid scenarios (said 1v1).

Edited Friday at 02:16 AM by StraightPath.3972

[Kydar Schattendolch.6879]

I am at least missing a tool top for the soul shards, how many life is siphoned per shard or the dmg thad is done bye consuming them. There's just the information, that u recieve shards and comsume them by using spear 2..

AA could use some little speed up.

Dmg wise ok'ish here. 

[Brujeria.7536]

I did test it mostly in WVW and so far im not really impressed.

- LF via weaponskills is way too low for a melee weapon.

- The damage overall feels lacking and especially for skill 2 (thats basicly the burst the entire weaponkit resolves around) the damage feels way too low. Like a regular gravedigger feels stronger or a DH LB 2 does more damage with 1500 range on a lower cooldown and with basicly no setup. Also given how easily necro is being ragdolled due to low stability makes landing the burst even harder

- The weapon feels too similar to GS, as they both have a burst skill and a couple of other weaponskills that support that aspect in making sure that it lands, as well as a focus on chill and vulnerability. For this weapon it would make much more sense to go for different conditions. I feel like poison / cripple / slow would be a way better choice. Especially for chasing down targets poison to cut healing and slow to increase pressure. Maybe with cripple as a weaker effect compared to chill to be able to keep up. 

- Soulshard duration seems to be too tight. You basicly want to get shards before you use skill 2 and the way to get these shards is kinda hard for necro without any easy access to stability , topping it off with a 1 second casttime burstskill? I feel like the duration should be increased or all shards should be refreshed if you get new one.

- The range for the AA and skill 3 is very odd. I feel like that should be at least 240 or 300 like skill 2. Spears are supposed to be long, and its extremely irritating that these skills basicly work on the same range as a dagger. That would also help to further differentiate the weapon from GS

- Skill 3 feels not good. The range is very short, the effects are also not really potent. I mean getting the maximum effect for this skill you need to be above a certain shard number, and you need to interrupt a skill, ideally you want to do that before hitting your burst so it cant be easily dodged, the problem is 1. short range that can easily be kited, 2. you basicly need to hit two skills beforehand to get the required amount of shards which expire quickly and you need to time, when to use it in order to interrupt a skill else you get no immob. Which really is not easy given you are on a timer for shards and you dont want to let them expire before hitting your burst. The effects then are not potent at all. Most single target CC skills / immobs have a much bigger duration / effect. I mean for example warrior spear 4 gets a flat 2 sec immob with 1200 range and no strings attached, and as an additional reward an daze if he interrupts a skill, and on the necro weapon kit you need to hit 2 requirements for a way lower, short ranged effect? I think the skill should be a 2 second immob baseline with a 2 second daze on interrupt and some kind of condition when used above the stack count.

- Skill 4 feels good. In the best scenarios and combined with reaper shroud 2 and the CD reset on leaving shroud it feels like the first time i can actually stick to a target and to be able to do combos (like charging CTTB before porting, or precasting spear 5)

- Skill 5 feels also good to use.

I would gladly take skill 4 and 5 for an offhand weapon, but the rest needs some tuning. 

I also think the animations are unfinished? The only real animations i could easily notice where for skill 2 and 5. For skill 3 i honestly wouldnt know i used it unless i would see the CD recharge.

With the current damage numbers you could add a damaging condition on every skill, turning the weapon into a hybrid one and it wouldnt really be op.

 

 

[Echostorm.9143]

We're up to our necks in power weapons.  This should have been a support weapon and swords could have been refactored a bit.

[felincyriac.5981]

- why are the autos so slow and weak? Barely stronger than sword autos, but at least sword autos are ranged and heals. Difficult to maintain shards whilst in melee.

- LF generation, where is it?

- skill 2 payoff, where is it? Coz its not the damage

- skill 5 should probably give more soul shards for the first hit

- skill 3, why is the range so short? You are literally lunging your spear at someone...

[Batalix.2873]

14 hours ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

may as well copy/paste swords feedback, "weak, clunky and slow", but now with a very limited range. 

Necro is the slow and tanky mage. Sorry if you don't like that, play another class, not all of us need to be on a bunch of stimulants to have fun.

I agree with @Brujeria.7536 to an extent. I'm fine with the melee range differentiating from Mesmer, but I think mayyyyybe Necro deserves the ranged/melee AA hybrid like we have on Ranger and Thief. Iunno, I haven't invested much thought into the implications but it seems like it would fit its "assassin" vibe better than only being able to port once every 12 seconds.

EDIT: I take it back, I don't think Necro spear needs a ranged AA. It needs a little something extra, but that's not it.

Edited Friday at 08:44 AM by Batalix.2873

[felincyriac.5981]

31 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Necro is the slow and tanky mage. Sorry if you don't like that, play another class, not all of us need to be on a bunch of stimulants to have fun.

I agree with @Brujeria.7536 to an extent. I'm fine with the melee range differentiating from Mesmer, but I think mayyyyybe Necro deserves the ranged/melee AA hybrid like we have on Ranger and Thief. Iunno, I haven't invested much thought into the implications but it seems like it would fit its "assassin" vibe better than only being able to port once every 12 seconds.

You are right about slow.  

 

Though I am curious where you got this definition for necro?

Edited Thursday at 09:10 PM by felincyriac.5981

[Xei Han.8736]

The biggest problem I have is the accumulation of soul shards, especially with the 10-second window being per individual shard.  Too often I'd hit the threshold needed for a skill buff, then lose a shard before it triggered.  One idea (I'm sure there are many here) is to shorten their lifespan but refresh it every time you gain a shard.  For example, even if they only lasted 4 seconds, if the timer reset to 4 each time you complete a skill-1 attack chain, you'd still eventually accrue all of your shards.

Also, what effect do the soul shards have with skill 2?  It says that it consumes all active shards, but it doesn't indicate what that does for you.  I feel like I should avoid skill 2 if it doesn't give any benefit.

Edited Thursday at 10:21 PM by Xei Han.8736
numeric typo

[felincyriac.5981]

surely they can add some lf to the 2 when you pop shards?

Edited Thursday at 09:12 PM by felincyriac.5981

[felincyriac.5981]

1 minute ago, Xei Han.8736 said:

The biggest problem I have is the accumulation of soul shards, especially with the 10-second window being per individual shard.  Too often I'd hit the threshold needed for a skill buff, then lose a shard before it triggered.  One idea (I'm sure there are many here) is to shorten their lifespan but refresh it every time you gain a shard.  For example, even if they only lasted 4 seconds, if the timer reset to 3 each time you complete a skill-1 attack chain, you'd still eventually accrue all of your shards.

Also, what effect do the soul shards have with skill 2?  It says that it consumes all active shards, but it doesn't indicate what that does for you.  I feel like I should avoid skill 2 if it doesn't give any benefit.

check the damage log when you use your two, its the only benefit of the soul shards

[Xei Han.8736]

1 minute ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

check the damage log when you use your two, its the only benefit of the soul shards

Not the only benefit.  Skill 3: "If you have a number of soul shards above the threshold ..."

[borisslav.9026]

I tried spears on a few professions where it felt great and brought interesting play. Necro seems to have gotten the short end of the spear, though. It's just another greatsword with worse damage, weaker LF generation, and an unnecessary mechanic tacked on, just so there's a mechanic. It seems like necro was a bit of an afterthought when you developed spears for this expansion. Not impressed at all. Unless it starts pulling numbers significantly higher than great sword, or unless it starts feeling at least a little bit less like the great sword, I see no reason to be using spear at all. 

With that said, all we wanted was the support weapon we're still missing, not another power weapon. 

[XECOR.2814]

Many problems and its missing few baseline components to even make it work. Extremely under tuned in terms of effects to facilitate gameplay.
No Qol or thought aside from 1 dimensional burst combo on golems.

1. To survive on power necromancer builds, you need a lot of life force on reliable skills.
2. The follow up port after latch on needs to provide some kind of defense like blind/immob and/or slow/chill.
3. The range on the skills u need to the most in a pinch and the lack of boons and conditions makes this weapon unplayable in all competitive modes no matter what damage numbers u put in there.
4. It feels bad to play because it doesn't burst. The 'more damage to low enemies' is not reliable and still does less damage then expected. That should be the baseline damage and then should provide high stacks of vulnerability or might to facilitate higher burst.

• Make Spear#3 300range. Daze 2sec baseline, Stun 2sec on higher soul shards.
  Stun to lock down enemies instead of immob on higher soul shards.
  The 1sec daze or immob is not stopping anyone and is highly under-powered for 130range single target skill on necromancer.
• Spear#4 Flip over port skill can have either 2s immob on port or (chill+slow) to lock down enemies to set up for perforate. Also needs to have higher time interval to allow port.
  Increase the allowed FOV where the Spear#4 initial cast can be used without getting cancelled.
• Auto attacks need to have vulnerability or might, any kind of boon to reward landing super slow autos in 130range that do nothing outside of damage.
• Life force on perforate Spear#2.

The healing is just an afterthought for most players, nobody cares about, nobody likes life siphon.
Its just tacked on to consume the power budget while not giving anything worthwhile.

Edited Thursday at 10:52 PM by XECOR.2814

[Batalix.2873]

1 hour ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

You are right about slow.  

 

Though I am curious where you got this definition for necro?

It started like that when the professions actually had more differentiated identities. Necro was designed to have a tankier playstyle. It had lower mobility, but also more survivability with shroud and lifesteal, and could make up for that to some extent with ranged attacks and minions.