Alliance System vs Server

[Java Jim.4675]

Well, we have now seen that it was not a good idea to integrate the alliance system. What do you think it would look like in the NFL if the players were shuffled every 8 weeks and played for different teams? Would they still be as passionate about winning the game? WvW is a team game and you can't reshuffle the teams. I think it's time for new developers for Anet. 

 

[Chaba.5410]

This isn't the NFL and the average WvW player is not as skilled.  They wouldn't qualify for any pro team, that's for sure.

Edited June 30 by Chaba.5410

[Dawdler.8521]

What do you think NFL would look like if one team have 5 people on the field, the other team have 35 people and the third team have 15 people just waiting for those 35 to leave?

Comparing a highly organized and rule based game to WvW remain pretty awkward.

[neven.7528]

It definately needs tweaking but its better than the old server system with constant transfers.  Even if the first matchups started like this:

Week 1 : Tier A through E completely random. (for now)
Week 2 :

• A1 vs B1 vs C1
• D1 vs E1 vs A2  
• B2 vs C2 vs D2  
• E2 vs A3 vs B3
• C3 vs D3 vs E3

Week 3 : 1up 1dwn
Week 4: 1up 1dwn

Down the road they can assign a glico value to each wvw player based on their set wvw guild at time of matchmaking.   The players value gets adjusted at the end of week for based on the servers performance, not the individuals.  When a new reshuffle happens, the glico of the entire new servers player base is averaged out and tier placements happen for the next Week 1.  The reason for player glico instead of guild glico is because so many people make new alliance guilds and the score would be reset otherwise.  This glico system only works for VP based scoring though and is still blind to a worlds population distribution

Edited July 3 by neven.7528

[One more for the road.8950]

Ppl keep saying they got the alliance system, I feel left out.

[TheIceman.1039]

6 hours ago, Java Jim.4675 said:

Well, we have now seen that it was not a good idea to integrate the alliance system. What do you think it would look like in the NFL if the players were shuffled every 8 weeks and played for different teams? Would they still be as passionate about winning the game? WvW is a team game and you can't reshuffle the teams. I think it's time for new developers for Anet. 

 

This is beta, everything is still changing as needed.

[XenesisII.1540]

I think it's fair game to compare it to sports teams if they're going to use the same type of system(points scoring) to determine a winner of a match. The failure is on anet for not providing a consistent team size on the playing field for all teams, something that is needed for such a system.

And watch, the scoring changes coming up will probably be done to try and course correct this imbalance that they can't fix with WR, but I'm sure will again favor the stackers. Which in a way it totally fine to help send them to the highest tiers instead of slumming it in the low tiers for less challenge, only problem is it's only 4 weeks a season in which 1u1d hampers, which isn't even enough time to send worlds to their rightful tiers for long if at all. But hey you all wanted 4 weeks or less for shuffles, so enjoy that.

Here's World Restructuring in a nutshell, free transfers for all the bandwagoners(less money for anet), random transfers for everyone else that didn't want it, a system that once again favors the stackers. Where the usual excuse still applies, if you want to enjoy the WR system, WvW, Boon Ball combat, then stack harder. Anet spent 6 years working on taking money away from themselves. 😏

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

I think it's fair game to compare it to sports teams if they're going to use the same type of system(points scoring) to determine a winner of a match. The failure is on anet for not providing a consistent team size on the playing field for all teams, something that is needed for such a system.

No, it's really not fair game. WvW is not a sports game. Sports games are as mentioned, highly organized and based on rules. Organisation and rules that WvW completely lack because it's a 24/7 causal hotjoin mode.

If you want to compare with something basic, you can go back to simple team shooters instead, like Battlefield. Two teams, equal sides at the start of a match, right? 

Except... well... there is something that developers figured out was needed to provide a consistent team size... autobalance shuffling people between teams to make those numbers equal...

[Dopamine.6324]

idk about NFL, but when it comes to NHL and how players there get traded left and right off/mid season and being replaced by other from lower league...
only ones that stay in roster are the core group aka guild in this case? seems pretty much same to me

[XenesisII.1540]

59 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

No, it's really not fair game. WvW is not a sports game. Sports games are as mentioned, highly organized and based on rules. Organisation and rules that WvW completely lack because it's a 24/7 causal hotjoin mode.

If you want to compare with something basic, you can go back to simple team shooters instead, like Battlefield. Two teams, equal sides at the start of a match, right? 

Except... well... there is something that developers figured out was needed to provide a consistent team size... autobalance shuffling people between teams to make those numbers equal...

They both come down to the same road, any use of "scoring" requires even teams for a fair match. They tried to use scoring much like sport, but failed to keep up team sizes after the first couple months. WvW will never have that, not even in the slightest with WR either. I know you're all for WR, but you honestly are not delulu enough to think WR solved the population problems do you?

As for the OP I think they were more suggesting that the WR system has turned wvw into a nameless soulless system that you don't care about/have attachments to what world you're on, who's on your team, defending your stuff, shuffled every 4 weeks, we're still suppose to give a kitten about winning in a game mode about scoring? There is no real attachment to wvw anymore other than your guild name, with the constant reshuffles that will happen, and everyone is just basically green blue red now, and the developers making sure the attacking stackers are the only ones "feeling good" about the mode.

 

P.S If wvw is suppose to just be some casual hot join mode then maybe it's time they got rid of scoring. it really serves no purpose these days, there's other metrics they can use instead for "winning".

Edited June 30 by XenesisII.1540

[CafPow.1542]

25 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

it really serves no purpose these days

Did it ever besides balancing servers out?

i mean how much can a single player influence the overall rating really? I always felt like this is just an info for me to know „how thibgs are going“ but really i can’t do much, only do my thing.

[Malak.7108]

13 hours ago, Java Jim.4675 said:

Well, we have now seen that it was not a good idea to integrate the alliance system. What do you think it would look like in the NFL if the players were shuffled every 8 weeks and played for different teams? Would they still be as passionate about winning the game? WvW is a team game and you can't reshuffle the teams. I think it's time for new developers for Anet. 

 

Yes I agree with you and hope Anet might yet return to servers with some new ideas.

Its about camaraderie which the Anet devs in control don't seem to appreciate. We have many players who have been loyal to the the same server since they started WvW and to them their server was their home. In a way it is like sports teams - just because you get relegated doesn't mean you abandon your team as a team is lifelong.

Of course servers often were difficult for balance but many of us still showed up even when things were tough going. Why - we felt we were on the same side and were in it together.

Its great that Anet tried hard to balance servers but with all these different time zone populations its simply impossible to get good balance ALL the time, and Alliances still have the same problems. 

On servers we just had to do the best - sometimes we were the dominant side that made that made things too easy, yet in a few hours we could be the underdogs getting hammered. However, there are so many things to do in server WvW that tough going could still be fun.

Yes I know that many players liked to switch servers for new experiences but they had the choice whereas our server homes are gone.

[XenesisII.1540]

1 hour ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Did it ever besides balancing servers out?

Well besides determining how many green bags to hand out every week long ago, and who won the tournaments...

 

1 hour ago, CafPow.1542 said:

i mean how much can a single player influence the overall rating really? I always felt like this is just an info for me to know „how thibgs are going“ but really i can’t do much, only do my thing.

A commander running long amount of hours per week. Like say... a certain ocx com from sos did. And all those roamers that backcap stuff like camps and towers quickly, it all adds up over time. I suppose if you're playing a support and only running around with a zerg you wouldn't feel much more than another cog in the machine. 🤷‍♂️

[CafPow.1542]

You can’t do nothing without other players.

and you can only play a few hours per week, if you have some form of jo mb / family / life in general.

not saying you have no influence at all but realistically 1 person alone is never the reason for a rating. 

[Ronin.4501]

9 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

They both come down to the same road, any use of "scoring" requires even teams for a fair match. They tried to use scoring much like sport, but failed to keep up team sizes after the first couple months. WvW will never have that, not even in the slightest with WR either. I know you're all for WR, but you honestly are not delulu enough to think WR solved the population problems do you?

As for the OP I think they were more suggesting that the WR system has turned wvw into a nameless soulless system that you don't care about/have attachments to what world you're on, who's on your team, defending your stuff, shuffled every 4 weeks, we're still suppose to give a kitten about winning in a game mode about scoring? There is no real attachment to wvw anymore other than your guild name, with the constant reshuffles that will happen, and everyone is just basically green blue red now, and the developers making sure the attacking stackers are the only ones "feeling good" about the mode.

 

P.S If wvw is suppose to just be some casual hot join mode then maybe it's time they got rid of scoring. it really serves no purpose these days, there's other metrics they can use instead for "winning".

You're exactly right. Server pride still existed for some, but for most of us it died long ago. If you were on a stacked server it was great, but for everyone else it sucked. Personally I'm slightly enjoying the new system over the old because we've managed to put together a competent alliance, but with the current scoring system we're still losing because we we built our alliance around guilds who want fights, not ppt. And tbh most of the fights are 1-pushes because our 40v40s are against alliances that have numbers but no skill/comp. But the reality is until Anet changes 1) scoring that makes kills move valuable and captures less valuable and 2) adds a timezone differentiation into the algorithm there will never be any real balance.

Let the fight guild-based servers face off against the fight-guild based servers, and let the ppt-based servers face off against the ppt-based servers, taking time zone populations into accordance, and you'd probably have a much happier player base.

[XenesisII.1540]

1 hour ago, Ronin.4501 said:

Let the fight guild-based servers face off against the fight-guild based servers, and let the ppt-based servers face off against the ppt-based servers, taking time zone populations into accordance, and you'd probably have a much happier player base.

This is the way wvw has operated for the most part already. PPT servers floated to t1, and fight servers floated down because of less ppting, or purposely tanking for easier fights. But with the way the system is setup now, resetting worlds every 4 weeks so everything is remixed, and 1u1d, you're never going to find that pure fight vs fight, ppt vs ppt, again. Maybe the new pvp mode will be some sort of gvg mode and finally give those fight guilds a reason to go somewhere else to find constant fights, and not have to deal with the wvw yoyo.

[CafPow.1542]

I think it’s silly tho to focus only on ppt or ppk. It should be like you lose if you avoid every fight but also lose if you only tunnelvision kills.

but that’s just my opinion.

[TheGrimm.5624]

21 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

I think it’s silly tho to focus only on ppt or ppk. It should be like you lose if you avoid every fight but also lose if you only tunnelvision kills.

but that’s just my opinion.

No its not just IYO, the point of having both PPK and PPT is you need to do both. If you focus one over the other, you deserve to lose. Game mode is about not doing one thing but many, even while there is no reason to win. So we can hope scoring changes encourages more to focus those in first versus misbalancing PPK and PPT balance. 

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

But with the way the system is setup now, resetting worlds every 4 weeks so everything is remixed, and 1u1d, you're never going to find that pure fight vs fight, ppt vs ppt, again. 

The horror of having variation instead of dreading that world ending up in your matchup.

[joneirikb.7506]

22 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

No its not just IYO, the point of having both PPK and PPT is you need to do both. If you focus one over the other, you deserve to lose. Game mode is about not doing one thing but many, even while there is no reason to win. So we can hope scoring changes encourages more to focus those in first versus misbalancing PPK and PPT balance. 

Kind of depends on what the goal is. I don't think it's possible to get players interested in points/score, most weren't that interested in the first place. So there is a valid argument to just killing off the system entirely, and just make it something else. Like for example eotm's 2 hours skirmishes. but then it wouldn't be a 24/7 mode any longer, and it would fundamentally change all the designs around the mode. Basically turning it more into a WOW-battleground style map rather than the 24/7 mode we have.

The questions to ask would be: What percentage of the player-base would love/hate that, and how much work would it be for ANet to do so?

If ANet intend/want to keep WvW a 24/7 mode, as it is, then they need to figure out a way to make points/score work "in some way or manner". And I don't think trying to get players to care about points/score by itself is going to work, so it's going to have to be some kind of hack. Either linking up rewards and score/points in some way that getting personal reward also increases score/points. Or just making so that ANY action in WvW increases points/score, so practically speaking player-hours = points.

Naturally will be a bunch of issues with any of those. But the main thing is that it would link up the things that players does = points. There would be no way to NOT get points, unless you AFK'ed in spawn or something.

[CafPow.1542]

2 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

No its not just IYO, the point of having both PPK and PPT is you need to do both. If you focus one over the other, you deserve to lose. Game mode is about not doing one thing but many, even while there is no reason to win. So we can hope scoring changes encourages more to focus those in first versus misbalancing PPK and PPT balance. 

I dunno tbh if it’s balanced or how jt could balance cause nerf one automatically buffs the other.

also if one had 2 guilds on a map, one focusing on ppt and one on ppk it also would work.

i think -personally- as a player i shouldn’t focus on 1 thing and just play the game and have fun. Just do everything. Turn a tower if it’s convenient, join a fight if it happens, and don’t think about „most efficient score“.

but of course i can’t (and don’t want to) force other players to play like i think is „right“.

[Mabi black.1824]

11 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

You can’t do nothing without other players.

and you can only play a few hours per week, if you have some form of jo mb / family / life in general.

not saying you have no influence at all but realistically 1 person alone is never the reason for a rating. 

That's why it's called a team. The rating, scoring, and comparison are determined by the team. It is exactly as it should be and as it is intended to be. That's why expressions like ''team spirit'' are usually used. Someone called wvw ''magical'' for this very reason. Because all players, no one excluded (single player rather than group of players) has the opportunity to feel an active part of their team. The key word is ''participation'' which leads you directly to 'motivation'' because when you participate you will feel involved and make all your content available. 1 hour of gameplay as 10 hours of gameplay. It doesn't matter, because you're part of a great team.

I've tried so many times to explain this stuff here on this section of the forum, that I've almost lost the urge to do so. Only a blind man cannot see all this.

P.S. In a 24/7 points system between teams as big as our original servers, you'll find a lot of variables that affect the final score. This kind of thing is solved with math. Mathematical coefficients are used to refine a final result. You can have more than one as well. you just have to choose what and how. I've already explained these things.

Edited July 1 by Mabi black.1824

[TheGrimm.5624]

9 hours ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

Kind of depends on what the goal is. I don't think it's possible to get players interested in points/score, most weren't that interested in the first place. So there is a valid argument to just killing off the system entirely, and just make it something else. Like for example eotm's 2 hours skirmishes. but then it wouldn't be a 24/7 mode any longer, and it would fundamentally change all the designs around the mode. Basically turning it more into a WOW-battleground style map rather than the 24/7 mode we have.

The questions to ask would be: What percentage of the player-base would love/hate that, and how much work would it be for ANet to do so?

If ANet intend/want to keep WvW a 24/7 mode, as it is, then they need to figure out a way to make points/score work "in some way or manner". And I don't think trying to get players to care about points/score by itself is going to work, so it's going to have to be some kind of hack. Either linking up rewards and score/points in some way that getting personal reward also increases score/points. Or just making so that ANY action in WvW increases points/score, so practically speaking player-hours = points.

Naturally will be a bunch of issues with any of those. But the main thing is that it would link up the things that players does = points. There would be no way to NOT get points, unless you AFK'ed in spawn or something.

Its going to vary from player to player. They have given us no reason to win for such along time that I think we might have been boiled down to people that aren't going to care at all about winning and those that will care even though you win, nothing. We probably don't have many left in the middle. Along the way with WR was reasons to win, in whatever form that is in. Are the scoring changes meant to get more of those middle players back into play? Could be.

Right now we have 24x7 week long game. I hope they aren't thinking about breaking that since that's what drew some of us in. And if they go EotM, why remove the servers since it wouldn't have mattered. Does that means its a rebalance of PPK to PPT to address? That has it own issues. Personally I can hope that they are looking to address the number 1 & 2 servers jumping on the weakest link and instead encouraging scoring against the side in first place in various forms that keeps a good balance in PPK and PPT play. But I admit as I said in the past over time you need to play to the PPK, PPT across the 24x7 time frame. If you are only going to pay attention to 1 element then that's on the side that ignores the other 2 sides.

If scoring is meant to lead to reasons to win, it doesn't mean that there can't be a hybrid to it, reasons to win the skirmish period and reasons to win the week. That would encourage players to think about both. Encouragement now and encouragement over time. They already said they were considering wall runners and that would tie into this as well so....maybe linked in same topic. 

Wouldn't mind that blog post sooner rather than later so we players have time to pass it to non forums goers and there can be feedback on what this looks like.

[One more for the road.8950]

10 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

That's why it's called a team. The rating, scoring, and comparison are determined by the team. It is exactly as it should be and as it is intended to be. That's why expressions like ''team spirit'' are usually used. Someone called wvw ''magical'' for this very reason. Because all players, no one excluded (single player rather than group of players) has the opportunity to feel an active part of their team. The key word is ''participation'' which leads you directly to 'motivation'' because when you participate you will feel involved and make all your content available. 1 hour of gameplay as 10 hours of gameplay. It doesn't matter, because you're part of a great team.

I've tried so many times to explain this stuff here on this section of the forum, that I've almost lost the urge to do so. Only a blind man cannot see all this.

P.S. In a 24/7 points system between teams as big as our original servers, you'll find a lot of variables that affect the final score. This kind of thing is solved with math. Mathematical coefficients are used to refine a final result. You can have more than one as well. you just have to choose what and how. I've already explained these things.

Well, other ppl tried so many times to explain to you that most servers lost their "team spirit" long ago, some have been dead on and off for ages, and have almost lost the urge to do so. Guess we're equally blind then.

[Mabi black.1824]

3 hours ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

and have almost lost the urge to do so

The point is that the player doesn't have to do anything, it's something that's dictated by the game design. it is simply server-based. Just ask Anet to complete the job and move what was the previous reference (server) to the new reference (guild).