Tyrian Alliance and the story forward

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

we had a greater bad guy since the start of the game, the dragons. it certainly didnt feel the way you described. there were many villains, and they were all mostly related to the dragons that were established early on. what they should do is set up a new backdrop, and a new path towards an eventual goal. with that established, the story has a foundation on which to march forwards.

I think, for the time being at least, they've made a conscious decision not to do that. Because, as a few people have said - sometimes it's more realistic that not everything ties into the big overarching plot.

At the moment, though, we seem to be in a "the conclusion of the dragon arc still had consequences" phase. Maybe at some stage it will turn out that some of the things that happen in this phase are linked to something happening behind the scenes. But not everything has to be that way. Many of the personal story arcs were not dragon-related, and at least some of the events we've seen in the living story probably would have happened, if not in quite the same way, without the dragons being a factor.

[Fipmip.7219]

3 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think, for the time being at least, they've made a conscious decision not to do that. Because, as a few people have said - sometimes it's more realistic that not everything ties into the big overarching plot.

At the moment, though, we seem to be in a "the conclusion of the dragon arc still had consequences" phase. Maybe at some stage it will turn out that some of the things that happen in this phase are linked to something happening behind the scenes. But not everything has to be that way. Many of the personal story arcs were not dragon-related, and at least some of the events we've seen in the living story probably would have happened, if not in quite the same way, without the dragons being a factor.

as i said, there's nothing realistic about having one guy deal with every problem. so they can either just ignore that and do it anyway, or they can get a new overarc. As i also said, not every villain has to be demons, and there's even room for side stuff like the white mantle. but 90% of it was related.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 minute ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

as i said, there's nothing realistic about having one guy deal with every problem. so they can either just ignore that and do it anyway, or they can get a new overarc. As i also said, not every villain has to be demons, and there's even room for side stuff like the white mantle. but 90% of it was related.

And people were getting tired of that all the way back in Season 1 where everything was Scarlet (except the karka stuff, I guess). Tyria is ultimately a world, and not everything is going to come from the same source.

Part of the complexity, of course, is that when you have this big thing happening, other groups are going to respond to it, so they kind of get interwoven with the main story. The White Mantle would have attempted to resurrect Lazarus and take over Kryta at some point - the events of HoT may simply have precipitated things to happen at the precise time they did. There would likely have eventually been a showdown with Joko, Balthazar wanting to kill dragons just made it happen now. Bangar would probably have made a power grab even if he didn't believe he could get the backing of an Elder Dragon, especially since a large part of the reason he seemed to want it was to have an ace in his own hand against Aurene. If it wasn't for the effects of the rising of Zhaitan, the Purists might still be in power in Cantha... but they're still there, and we might have to deal with them and their monster in the ruins of Raisu (which might or might not be a Risen) sometime. Heck, even the Kryptis chose to strike now because of the dragons, but would still likely have been a threat.

But there are other things bubbling beneath the surface, and in the wake of the dragon situation being resolved, not everything needs to be linked to some overarching plot. Some of it can be a range of problems that spring up after the dragons, or which were present beforehand but now there's the wherewithal to do something. Some of it could be pursuing personal goals of the PC or allies of the PC. And maybe some of it could be part of some overall plot... but we won't find out until later, and even when we do, it shouldn't turn out that everything was related.

One could look at post-EoD as starting off another series in an existing universe. Think of, say, the early parts of Deep Space Nine - they probably knew what they were going for, but not everything was ultimately building up to the Dominion War, some of it was just stuff that happened on or around a space station in a politically unstable region. Or the early parts of the GW2 personal story - some of it, to be sure, was dragon-related (especially if you're norn and the primary antagonist is Sons of Svanir), but a lot of it is just... stuff that happens in the world. A few assassinations by subverted butler golems or an attempt by the dredge to kill Ogden weren't ultimately linked to the dragons, they were just things that happened. And we're in a similar stage in the narrative now.

[Fipmip.7219]

31 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

And people were getting tired of that all the way back in Season 1 where everything was Scarlet (except the karka stuff, I guess). Tyria is ultimately a world, and not everything is going to come from the same source.

Part of the complexity, of course, is that when you have this big thing happening, other groups are going to respond to it, so they kind of get interwoven with the main story. The White Mantle would have attempted to resurrect Lazarus and take over Kryta at some point - the events of HoT may simply have precipitated things to happen at the precise time they did. There would likely have eventually been a showdown with Joko, Balthazar wanting to kill dragons just made it happen now. Bangar would probably have made a power grab even if he didn't believe he could get the backing of an Elder Dragon, especially since a large part of the reason he seemed to want it was to have an ace in his own hand against Aurene. If it wasn't for the effects of the rising of Zhaitan, the Purists might still be in power in Cantha... but they're still there, and we might have to deal with them and their monster in the ruins of Raisu (which might or might not be a Risen) sometime. Heck, even the Kryptis chose to strike now because of the dragons, but would still likely have been a threat.

But there are other things bubbling beneath the surface, and in the wake of the dragon situation being resolved, not everything needs to be linked to some overarching plot. Some of it can be a range of problems that spring up after the dragons, or which were present beforehand but now there's the wherewithal to do something. Some of it could be pursuing personal goals of the PC or allies of the PC. And maybe some of it could be part of some overall plot... but we won't find out until later, and even when we do, it shouldn't turn out that everything was related.

One could look at post-EoD as starting off another series in an existing universe. Think of, say, the early parts of Deep Space Nine - they probably knew what they were going for, but not everything was ultimately building up to the Dominion War, some of it was just stuff that happened on or around a space station in a politically unstable region. Or the early parts of the GW2 personal story - some of it, to be sure, was dragon-related (especially if you're norn and the primary antagonist is Sons of Svanir), but a lot of it is just... stuff that happens in the world. A few assassinations by subverted butler golems or an attempt by the dredge to kill Ogden weren't ultimately linked to the dragons, they were just things that happened. And we're in a similar stage in the narrative now.

and what was it that brought the commander and those villains together? the dragons and the pact. the commander was always after the dragons and ran into them along the way. without a unifying force, they just appear one after the other and some guy apparently plays whack-a-mole with them. it was the dragons that gave the commander the motivation to be there in the first place, and by default be the one to stop them. without that, the commander has no cause, which is literally the name of one of the story chapters. without that, the hero is just the guy they call anytime anyone has a problem and apparently no one else can deal with them.

Edited July 15 by Fipmip.7219

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

It feels bad when there's nothing that ties them together. all the villians you put on that list, 5 are the dragons themselves and three are in service to them. and balthazar's motivations were to destroy the dragons. now they're gone, something needs to remain in the background to fill that void in order to have a story. otherwise they are disconnected. hence feeling like whack a mole with various villains springing from nowhere.

That being said, i didnt know about the demon tie into janthir so if that pans out, then maybe we've got something.

Who says nothing ties them together? We literally don't even know who the big bad of Janthir Wilds is or what the plot around them will be. For all we know, it's going to be a remnant Kryptis force that escaped Nayos after Eparch's death, like maybe Vanda who was mentioned in SotO but never seen in Nayos, or Nourys who's still alive out there (at least I didn't see anything in part 3 to imply it got killed off-screen).

And honestly, people hated how everything constantly tied back into the Elder Dragons - which is why we had antagonists like Caudecus and Palawa Joko who didn't tie into the Elder Dragons at all. And even Balthazar's tie in to the Elder Dragons is rudimentary at best - you can replace Kralkatorrik with literally any "gives power to bad guy at risk of destroying the world" mcguffin, like a larger bloodstone, and the plot runs the exact same with only some minor vocabulary changes.

And you're acting like all demons are somehow tied together when that is fundamentally untrue - it's about as accurate as saying ancient romans and ancient atzec empires were tied together because they were both human empires in the history of Earth.

4 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

as for peitha, her involvement overthrowing eparch builds up to... what exactly? they'll be an ally from now on? or just never get mentioned again? characters can develop their motivations and beliefs over time. it's called character development. maybe not right away, but if written well, it would be good storytelling. in any case, demons dont need to be the enemy every time, much like the dragons and their minions weren't the subject of every expansion - they were the backdrop of the story, and now the demons can be that.

As for Almorra, her involvement in getting rid of Blightghast builds up to... what exactly? they'll be an ally from now on? or just never get mentioned again?

As for Ruka, his involvement in getting rid of Mordremoth builds up to... what exactly? they'll be an ally from now on? or just never get mentioned again?

As for Bottica, her involvement in getting rid of Kralkatorrik builds up to... what exactly? they'll be an ally from now on? or just never get mentioned again?

As for Zaeim, his involvement in getting rid of Palawa Joko builds up to... what exactly? they'll be an ally from now on? or just never get mentioned again?

As for Joon, her involvement in getting rid of the Dragonvoid builds up to... what exactly? they'll be an ally from now on? or just never get mentioned again?

 

I think you get the idea. Sometimes, allies for a single plot are just that - allies for a single plot. If ArenaNet feels they would make sense getting involved in future plots, and can pull in the voice actor and have budget for all that, then they'll bring the NPC back.

But just as Bottica, Zaiem, Zafirah, Utumishi, and Sianna haven't been seen after LWS4 with two cameo excepts in EoD, NPCs in SotO may or may not return for future plots. In an MMO that has literally hundreds of thousands of NPCs, and even a secondary main cast easily over 100 NPCs, it isn't going to be realistic to constantly pull in the same NPCs for every plotline.

Peitha or other kryptis may return for Janthir Wilds. But equally so, they may not. They may show up in a future storyline, but equally so, they may not. Just as outside of the main cast of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch, the appearance of major characters in prior storylines may or may not get involved.

4 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

I called the demon realm a parallel reality because that's a quote from the game. your point about there being other realms within it is exactly what I had in mind - so we agree on that.

A neat little factoid about Guild Wars 2 is that it uses - arguably overuses - Unreliable Narrator. Nayos is only a parallel reality in that it is a realm of existence that is not part of Tyria. But the terminology implies the same concepts as parallel universe, split timeline, or alternate reality - that it is "the same but different".

Edited July 15 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't think this is entirely true... or if it is it's only true in a semantic sense. Razah was essentially a demon that we got to before he turned from evil, just to give one example. The semantic sense is that in GW1, it was fairly clear that creatures from the Mists could be both good and evil (although the latter seemed to outnumber the former) and that the label 'demon' was specifically applied to those that were considered to be evil. In that sense, the idea of "good guy demons" is contradictory to GW1 worldbuilding, but not in a way that makes the Kryptis shifting their attitude contradictory - instead, according to the GW1 terminology, Kryptis that have reformed would no longer be demons. 

The thing is Razah is explicitly stated to be a very rare entity among demons. Granted, "rare entities" can pop up quite a lot over the span of 3,000 years. But to have an entire civilization makes them... not very rare.

And as you say - "demon" was specifically applied to creatures born from malicious energy in the Mists that have an innate hatred for mortals. So then we call kryptis demons and oni are kryptis and they.... aren't anything what the definition of demon is? Except oni are because sure, except they're not creatures born from the Mists just transformed humans.

Which means Kryptis are not demons, based on the definition, but everyone calls them demons - they even call themselves demons - which means they are demons but do not fit the definition of demon...?

This is why it's contradictory. They do not fit the definition of demon, but everyone agrees they are demons. So either everyone is wrong and they are simply Mists beings, or the definition has been changed (read: retconned).

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

4 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

You mean the real world? the real world where every bad guy is dealt with by one guy? Having an overarching plot gives focus to our character. the villains we defeat along the way are in service to resolving that plot. and you can do that without doing whatever wow does. you say its more realistic to have unrelated issues all over the place, but there's nothing to suggest that isnt the case. they are just dealt with by other people.

Well, at basically no point in GW2 has everything been dealt with by one guy. The commander has always had armies working behind them. The Commander just deals the final blow(and not even that in several cases)

[EdwinLi.1284]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Who says nothing ties them together? We literally don't even know who the big bad of Janthir Wilds is or what the plot around them will be. For all we know, it's going to be a remnant Kryptis force that escaped Nayos after Eparch's death, like maybe Vanda who was mentioned in SotO but never seen in Nayos, or Nourys who's still alive out there (at least I didn't see anything in part 3 to imply it got killed off-screen).

 

At this point the only thing we can be certain about the whole "ties together" aspect is mostly that they appear to be all Mist related anyways.

Heck the side plot they built up in SotO with the Shadow Army is just a Mist related thing but we still do not know much about their "Master's" plans for attempting to invade Tyria but that is most likely going to be explained in a future expansion. 

SotO currently only establish that there is a rather strange growing threat from almost every known dangerous Mist thing for either their own personal goals or something else maybe going on deep in the Mists. We won't anything until later anyways since right now it seems they are focusing on how the current known governments in Tyria will react to the sudden reveal that new threats from the mists have always been constant along side Elder Dragons and this Secret Organization been the only forces that kept them contained until recently.

If we follow a pattern with plot progress from my guess then SotO is basically introduction to the Astral Ward then Janthir Wilds focus on "them going public and how the world handles the reveal of what they know" stage of the plot while not revealing much about what is going on deep in the mist but just enough for this expansion's antagonist. Then they may have the next expansion probably provide some real hints into something in the Mist driving all these Mist origin threats by some lore with the 3rd expansion antagonists and finally end it with the 4th expansion revealing this threat as this expansion's antagonist and stopping them or it within this expansion.


That aside....

I cannot help but think about how Eparch acted before dying. His behavior seems almost desperate to give the Kryptis someone strong enough to defend them from a threat. He knew he is going to die but something does seem off but I guess that is just going to need time to confirm if it really means something or was just a act of someone who knows he lost.

Edited July 15 by EdwinLi.1284

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The thing is Razah is explicitly stated to be a very rare entity among demons. Granted, "rare entities" can pop up quite a lot over the span of 3,000 years. But to have an entire civilization makes them... not very rare.

And as you say - "demon" was specifically applied to creatures born from malicious energy in the Mists that have an innate hatred for mortals. So then we call kryptis demons and oni are kryptis and they.... aren't anything what the definition of demon is? Except oni are because sure, except they're not creatures born from the Mists just transformed humans.

Which means Kryptis are not demons, based on the definition, but everyone calls them demons - they even call themselves demons - which means they are demons but do not fit the definition of demon...?

This is why it's contradictory. They do not fit the definition of demon, but everyone agrees they are demons. So either everyone is wrong and they are simply Mists beings, or the definition has been changed (read: retconned).

The actual text doesn't specify that they start off as malicious energy, just that at some point they "gain malicious sentience and power". And we've seen Mists entities that aren't inherently inimical, they just usually aren't called demons, but something else. Spirits. Gods, perhaps. Whatever Viirastra is doesn't even have a name. Heck, pretty much everything in a fractal was basically created in the same manner as spontaneously formed demons (artificially formed demons like titans and those formed by the Dreadspawn Maw are another case). Fundamentally, the difference between "demon" and "creature of the Mists" seems to be attitude, but the entities we typically interact with from the Mists are those with an interest in Tyria, with demons being likely overrepresented because indifferent Mist entities don't have an incentive to invade other worlds. Razah was unusual because he was clearly intended to be a demon, but we reached him when he was still a fairly blank slate.

The Kryptis in particular seem to primarily feed on emotion. Eparch encouraged them to feed on negative emotions, probably because intense negative emotions are easy to generate through violence and intimidation, and probably in part because they also benefit from, and perhaps require, physical sustenance as well and they can get both at the same time by tormenting and finally murdering and eating sapient beings. That behaviour caused them to be labelled as demons. If whatever Eparch did to somehow stop dreams from reaching Nayos naturally has ended, though, it might well be practical for them to just remain in Nayos making a living there, turning them into one of an unknown number of societies of beings from the Mists that... just don't need to interact with Tyria in a manner that Tyrians are aware of. Or, like the Monsters Inc plot, they might figure out ways to get the sustenance they need from generating positive emotions, making them essentially the opposite of demons.

1 hour ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

and what was it that brought the commander and those villains together? the dragons and the pact. the commander was always after the dragons and ran into them along the way. without a unifying force, they just appear one after the other and some guy apparently plays whack-a-mole with them. it was the dragons that gave the commander the motivation to be there in the first place, and by default be the one to stop them. without that, the commander has no cause, which is literally the name of one of the story chapters. without that, the hero is just the guy they call anytime anyone has a problem and apparently no one else can deal with them.

Only in the sense that the dragons are always in the background so it's hard for anything to happen without the dragons being involved somewhat. But there are certainly some cases where the dragons are pretty much only present in the background. Consider the White Mantle, for instance: when we do the raids, that has nothing to do with dragons except that a couple of the bosses (and none of the ones that precipitated the crisis in the first place) were created with the surge when Mordremoth died (background!). We investigate the buildup of magic at the bloodstone because at that stage we know enough for that to be concerning, but it turns out to have nothing to do with dragons (and Balthazar-as-Lazarus showing up actually defused that situation somewhat). Stopping Caudecus has an impact on the dragon campaign (the united front would surely be significantly weakened if Caudecus did usurp the throne), but at no point did I get the impression that was the primary motivation for the hero getting involved. It's largely coincidental to that arc that Balthazar chose to disguise himself as Lazarus, and that Balthazar was going after dragons.

Or to give a real-world example, consider the Cold War. That obviously had a big impact on global politics at the time, and everyone else that wanted to do anything of significance had to consider how the superpowers would respond, and might take advantage of the actions of the superpowers for their own ends. That does not mean, however, that every conflict that occurred between 1950 and 1990 happened because of the Cold War, even though the Cold War likely had an impact on all of them. Many of those conflicts would have happened anyway, it's just that the Cold War might have suppressed some while inflaming others. And after 1990, some conflicts were continuations of conflicts that started during the Cold War but would likely have happened anyway, some were continuations of conflicts that predated the Cold War, some were conflicts precipitated by the end of the Cold War, some were entirely new... and some, in hindsight, were the seeds of what is shaping up to be a second Cold War.

The dragons are similar in that respect. They were big enough that everything was touched by them... but there were other things going on as well, even if those things were influenced by the dragons. Now we're in the equivalent of a post-Cold War stage - the things that crop up now are not necessarily related to one another. Perhaps some of them eventually will be, but if a GW3 is being developed we might not find out until then: what we're seeing now is likely planting seeds that might or might not come to bloom later.

[Fipmip.7219]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

As for Almorra, her involvement in getting rid of Blightghast builds up to... what exactly? they'll be an ally from now on? or just never get mentioned again?

As for Ruka, his involvement in getting rid of Mordremoth builds up to... what exactly? they'll be an ally from now on? or just never get mentioned again?

As for Bottica, her involvement in getting rid of Kralkatorrik builds up to... what exactly? they'll be an ally from now on? or just never get mentioned again?

As for Zaeim, his involvement in getting rid of Palawa Joko builds up to... what exactly? they'll be an ally from now on? or just never get mentioned again?

As for Joon, her involvement in getting rid of the Dragonvoid builds up to... what exactly? they'll be an ally from now on? or just never get mentioned again?

 

I think you get the idea. Sometimes, allies for a single plot are just that - allies for a single plot. If ArenaNet feels they would make sense getting involved in future plots, and can pull in the voice actor and have budget for all that, then they'll bring the NPC back.

 alright so you are ignoring the context of the argument: whether the demons should be used as an ongoing plot device. If that's a given, then peitha is a likely candidate for a recurring character. and so it follows, you are the one who said she was built up to.. something. why not keep building?

 

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Who says nothing ties them together? We literally don't even know who the big bad of Janthir Wilds is or what the plot around them will be. For all we know, it's going to be a remnant Kryptis force that escaped Nayos after Eparch's death, like maybe Vanda who was mentioned in SotO but never seen in Nayos, or Nourys who's still alive out there (at least I didn't see anything in part 3 to imply it got killed off-screen).

And honestly, people hated how everything constantly tied back into the Elder Dragons - which is why we had antagonists like Caudecus and Palawa Joko who didn't tie into the Elder Dragons at all. And even Balthazar's tie in to the Elder Dragons is rudimentary at best - you can replace Kralkatorrik with literally any "gives power to bad guy at risk of destroying the world" mcguffin, like a larger bloodstone, and the plot runs the exact same with only some minor vocabulary changes.

And you're acting like all demons are somehow tied together when that is fundamentally untrue - it's about as accurate as saying ancient romans and ancient atzec empires were tied together because they were both human empires in the history of Earth.

I mean, do you have the stats on that? or are you just remembering a few lore forum threads? because I certainly didnt feel that way. If anything, my experience with franchise communities is that they actually dislike filler episodes. And here's the important distinction: they are filler episodes. if there's no overarching plot, then they aren't filler episodes, they are just episodes: directionless and endless. Imo a few filler episodes are fine, which is why i didnt mind joko or balthazar. and balthazars connection to the dragons is a moderate one, but appreciated nonetheless.

I'm not sure what lore forbids demons working together. you can go ahead and educate me on that one. but presumably, if peitha turned she could work with other demon realms, and unite them against tyria much like the races of tyria united themselves.  as far as i know the structure of these realities are not fleshed out entirely, but they could work similarly to the dragons, with there being x number of them, and needing to be dealt with one or some at a time.

Ultimately I'm conceding that im just speculating on what arenanet intends to do with the story. but consider this my argument on why it would be a good idea to find a new overarching thread.

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The actual text doesn't specify that they start off as malicious energy, just that at some point they "gain malicious sentience and power". And we've seen Mists entities that aren't inherently inimical, they just usually aren't called demons, but something else. Spirits. Gods, perhaps. Whatever Viirastra is doesn't even have a name. Heck, pretty much everything in a fractal was basically created in the same manner as spontaneously formed demons (artificially formed demons like titans and those formed by the Dreadspawn Maw are another case). Fundamentally, the difference between "demon" and "creature of the Mists" seems to be attitude, but the entities we typically interact with from the Mists are those with an interest in Tyria, with demons being likely overrepresented because indifferent Mist entities don't have an incentive to invade other worlds. Razah was unusual because he was clearly intended to be a demon, but we reached him when he was still a fairly blank slate.

The Kryptis in particular seem to primarily feed on emotion. Eparch encouraged them to feed on negative emotions, probably because intense negative emotions are easy to generate through violence and intimidation, and probably in part because they also benefit from, and perhaps require, physical sustenance as well and they can get both at the same time by tormenting and finally murdering and eating sapient beings. That behaviour caused them to be labelled as demons. If whatever Eparch did to somehow stop dreams from reaching Nayos naturally has ended, though, it might well be practical for them to just remain in Nayos making a living there, turning them into one of an unknown number of societies of beings from the Mists that... just don't need to interact with Tyria in a manner that Tyrians are aware of. Or, like the Monsters Inc plot, they might figure out ways to get the sustenance they need from generating positive emotions, making them essentially the opposite of demons.

Only in the sense that the dragons are always in the background so it's hard for anything to happen without the dragons being involved somewhat. But there are certainly some cases where the dragons are pretty much only present in the background. Consider the White Mantle, for instance: when we do the raids, that has nothing to do with dragons except that a couple of the bosses (and none of the ones that precipitated the crisis in the first place) were created with the surge when Mordremoth died (background!). We investigate the buildup of magic at the bloodstone because at that stage we know enough for that to be concerning, but it turns out to have nothing to do with dragons (and Balthazar-as-Lazarus showing up actually defused that situation somewhat). Stopping Caudecus has an impact on the dragon campaign (the united front would surely be significantly weakened if Caudecus did usurp the throne), but at no point did I get the impression that was the primary motivation for the hero getting involved. It's largely coincidental to that arc that Balthazar chose to disguise himself as Lazarus, and that Balthazar was going after dragons.

Or to give a real-world example, consider the Cold War. That obviously had a big impact on global politics at the time, and everyone else that wanted to do anything of significance had to consider how the superpowers would respond, and might take advantage of the actions of the superpowers for their own ends. That does not mean, however, that every conflict that occurred between 1950 and 1990 happened because of the Cold War, even though the Cold War likely had an impact on all of them. Many of those conflicts would have happened anyway, it's just that the Cold War might have suppressed some while inflaming others. And after 1990, some conflicts were continuations of conflicts that started during the Cold War but would likely have happened anyway, some were continuations of conflicts that predated the Cold War, some were conflicts precipitated by the end of the Cold War, some were entirely new... and some, in hindsight, were the seeds of what is shaping up to be a second Cold War.

The dragons are similar in that respect. They were big enough that everything was touched by them... but there were other things going on as well, even if those things were influenced by the dragons. Now we're in the equivalent of a post-Cold War stage - the things that crop up now are not necessarily related to one another. Perhaps some of them eventually will be, but if a GW3 is being developed we might not find out until then: what we're seeing now is likely planting seeds that might or might not come to bloom later.

again these are filler episodes which imo are fine every so often. but ultimately there was a thread that justified the commander's involvement each time. caudecus being from the core story before zhaitan, balthazar following on from caudecus and stealing the primordus slaying device, joko being kind of unavoidable as the lich ruler of elona. SotO was just... getting involved with something that had completely nothing to do with you at first. If that's the setup for each new expansion, then it feels directionless and your involvement is arbitrary. that's why common threads are easier to work with.

[Invidia.9074]

Just gonna pop up and say we have multiple viable threads that can be easily explored in the upcoming expansions in the next years and they don't need to be specifically related to each other:

- Lyssa possibly returning back to avenge Balthazar (would be even spicier if she involved herself with Menzies, whose fate is still ambiguous)
- Deep Sea monster, or whatever it was that spooked all the races of the ocean
- Secret of Raisu Palace and what lies beyond the Jade Expanse while we're still in Cantha

That's just a few, and not even all of them need to involve the Astral Ward
 

[EdwinLi.1284]

5 hours ago, Invidia.9074 said:

Just gonna pop up and say we have multiple viable threads that can be easily explored in the upcoming expansions in the next years and they don't need to be specifically related to each other:

- Lyssa possibly returning back to avenge Balthazar (would be even spicier if she involved herself with Menzies, whose fate is still ambiguous)
- Deep Sea monster, or whatever it was that spooked all the races of the ocean
- Secret of Raisu Palace and what lies beyond the Jade Expanse while we're still in Cantha

That's just a few, and not even all of them need to involve the Astral Ward
 

Maybe we can finally get a expansion that explains Doern Velazquez and his Secret Origin side plot since they obviously intented for him to be from a country that was not part of GW1 but somewhere beyond in lands we have not explored yet.

The major lore reason why we never got the chance to expand beyond GW1 locations was mostly because the Elder Dragon War preventing them from going Beyond what is already known since GW1. Now with Elder Dragons gone, it should be no surprise if the Tyrian Alliance decided to begin expeditions to regions beyond.

Edited July 15 by EdwinLi.1284

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

5 hours ago, Invidia.9074 said:

Just gonna pop up and say we have multiple viable threads that can be easily explored in the upcoming expansions in the next years and they don't need to be specifically related to each other:

- Lyssa possibly returning back to avenge Balthazar (would be even spicier if she involved herself with Menzies, whose fate is still ambiguous)
- Deep Sea monster, or whatever it was that spooked all the races of the ocean
- Secret of Raisu Palace and what lies beyond the Jade Expanse while we're still in Cantha

That's just a few, and not even all of them need to involve the Astral Ward
 

1. Return to Cantha: Deals with the Purists, their attempts to manipulate the Risen into attacking New Kaineng, the celestial blessing, the monster in Raisu Palace, Xun Rao. Maybe have the Speakers help us as a post EoD "what are they doing" like we got with the Jade Brotherhood in Gyala.
2. Deep Sea Monster: Centered around the Battle Isles, deals with the monster in the depths, Largos, Quaggan, and Krait. Possibly have Zafirah and the Zaishen return to reclaim the temple of Balthazar.
3. Lyssa: What is Lyssa up to/her plan, why did humanity flee their original homeworld, where have the gods gone/are they actually preparing a new world? Menzies as main villian? Maybe set in Dzalana or location in idea 4 below.
4. New World: We got to the far off lands to the west, which are implied to have a 4th human homeland. Not sure about the plot for this one beyond just seeing whats up over there.
5. Charr: Khan-Ur election, Bangar, cleaning up the last of the Separatists/Renegades, working with humanity to finally dispel the Ghosts of Ascalon. Magdaer reforged.
6. Sylvari: Malyck, his tree, what are the Nightmare court doing, origin of Dream/Nightmare. Possibly set in the Maguuma Wastes, north of the Brisban Wildlands Bandit bridge/origin of the Maguuma Wastes.
7. Norn: Return to the Far Shvierpeaks. Clean up the last of the Icebrood/Svanir. More Kodan lore. see how the Spirits/Braham are doing. What is in the giant pit maybe?
8. Asura: Underground expansion dealing with Asura reclaiming one of their lost cities, and finishing off the Inquest once and for all.
9. Kryta: Queen Jennah tries to deal with threats/make peace with peoples on the borders of Kryta(Centaurs, Tengu in Dominion of Winds, Pirates at D'ellessio Seaboard) while dealing with remnants of anti-queen groups stirring up trouble.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

 alright so you are ignoring the context of the argument: whether the demons should be used as an ongoing plot device. If that's a given, then peitha is a likely candidate for a recurring character. and so it follows, you are the one who said she was built up to.. something. why not keep building?

To me "demons should be used as an ongoing plot device" is completely irrelevant to "peitha is a likely candidate for a recurring character". I was not ignoring any context - the context you think are directly related are in fact simply two completely separate topics. Because as I said, the term "demon" incorporates a VERY WIDE spread of beings across a VERY WIDE spread of locations. It's the same as "human" in Tyria. Just because we're dealing with Elona and Cantha, doesn't mean characters from Kryta or Ascalon are going to be present or relevant.

And that's what my point was about - major characters in Plot A may not be recurring characters in Plot B or C, but could make a camero in Plot D.

13 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

I mean, do you have the stats on that? or are you just remembering a few lore forum threads? because I certainly didnt feel that way. If anything, my experience with franchise communities is that they actually dislike filler episodes. And here's the important distinction: they are filler episodes. if there's no overarching plot, then they aren't filler episodes, they are just episodes: directionless and endless. Imo a few filler episodes are fine, which is why i didnt mind joko or balthazar. and balthazars connection to the dragons is a moderate one, but appreciated nonetheless.

I could go digging for hours and get posts but yes, I am remembering a multitude of reddit threads, general forum threads, and discord server discussions. Not merely "a few lore forum threads" (in fact, lore discussions are often lacking any whining about the current plot other than "not long enough" or "not enough lore" in each storybeat).

By the halfway point of Season 1, people wanted more Elder Dragons because the game's very first storyline after Zhaitan seemed unrelated to Elder Dragons entirely. By Season 3, people wanted fewer Elder Dragons and we got White Mantle focus and Balthazar focus and Joko focus back to back; by the time of Joko, though, people were tired of non-Elder Dragons and enjoyed going back to that topic. But by End of Dragons, vocal people were tired of the Elder Dragon plot in general and wanted fresh breath and were looking forward to a new storyline unrelated to Elder Dragons or Aurene.

13 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

I'm not sure what lore forbids demons working together. you can go ahead and educate me on that one. but presumably, if peitha turned she could work with other demon realms, and unite them against tyria much like the races of tyria united themselves.  as far as i know the structure of these realities are not fleshed out entirely, but they could work similarly to the dragons, with there being x number of them, and needing to be dealt with one or some at a time.

Ultimately I'm conceding that im just speculating on what arenanet intends to do with the story. but consider this my argument on why it would be a good idea to find a new overarching thread.

Nothing forbids an alliance between demons, but by the lore, demons have - with exception of Kryptis - shown little to no signs of any society or hierarchy beyond a crude rudimentary form of kratocracy in small groups, and the only alliances demons have been seen to form are those which created a direct personal benefit - and at that, only with the Big Three of GW1: Dhuum, Abaddon, and Menzies. Eparch making the newest example and sole exception to former gods / demigods.

This isn't like the Elder Dragons that are vaguely tied together even though not allied - going from Demon Ethnicity A to Demon Ethnicity B (i.e., Kryptis to Titans) would be as related as going from Caudecus and the White Mantle to Minister Li and the Purists - both are xenophobic human groups dressed in white, but they hold zero relations to each other.

13 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

again these are filler episodes which imo are fine every so often. but ultimately there was a thread that justified the commander's involvement each time. caudecus being from the core story before zhaitan, balthazar following on from caudecus and stealing the primordus slaying device, joko being kind of unavoidable as the lich ruler of elona. SotO was just... getting involved with something that had completely nothing to do with you at first. If that's the setup for each new expansion, then it feels directionless and your involvement is arbitrary. that's why common threads are easier to work with.

And there's still a threat justifying the Commander's involvement?

It's not like the Commander got involved with Scarlet, Caudecus, Balthazar, Bangar, and Ankka because dragons - they got involved because either they got involved with the Commander (e.g., Scarlet, Balthazar, Bangar, and Ankka), or the Commander got pulled in by an ally (e.g., Kudu, Caudecus, Ryland). Hell - the same is true for the Elder Dragons. And the same is happening here - the Commander got pulled into SotO because an ally (Gorrik and Ivan) asked them to investigate something that landed them on Cerus' lap and into the incursion mess. In Janthir Wilds, it sounds like either the world leaders are pulling the Commander in, or the Astral Ward is. The bridging connection between SotO and JW is the Astral Ward, not demons with no relation to each other besides being demons.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, Invidia.9074 said:

Just gonna pop up and say we have multiple viable threads that can be easily explored in the upcoming expansions in the next years and they don't need to be specifically related to each other:

- Lyssa possibly returning back to avenge Balthazar (would be even spicier if she involved herself with Menzies, whose fate is still ambiguous)
- Deep Sea monster, or whatever it was that spooked all the races of the ocean
- Secret of Raisu Palace and what lies beyond the Jade Expanse while we're still in Cantha

That's just a few, and not even all of them need to involve the Astral Ward
 

And that's just the three most popular prior to SotO. SotO alone adds in:

• "Good guy" mursaat with female leader
• Menzies is apparently out there still and planing something
• Unknown Mists entities drawn to Tyria "like sharks to blood in water" after the World Spire fractured.
• Some major villain Kryptis leaders are still unaccounted for including Vanda and Nourys.
• The mystery of Frode's past and what happened to his village
• Hints of Janthir, of course
• Charr Khan-Ur "elections" (bleh) from the blog post

And there were others prior to SotO too besides those big three, like Malyck's tree and the remnant Nightmare Court post-Mordremoth, IBS established that Separatists have recovered from the loss of Caudecus' financial backing, etc.

[Fipmip.7219]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

To me "demons should be used as an ongoing plot device" is completely irrelevant to "peitha is a likely candidate for a recurring character". I was not ignoring any context - the context you think are directly related are in fact simply two completely separate topics. Because as I said, the term "demon" incorporates a VERY WIDE spread of beings across a VERY WIDE spread of locations. It's the same as "human" in Tyria. Just because we're dealing with Elona and Cantha, doesn't mean characters from Kryta or Ascalon are going to be present or relevant.

And that's what my point was about - major characters in Plot A may not be recurring characters in Plot B or C, but could make a camero in Plot D.

I could go digging for hours and get posts but yes, I am remembering a multitude of reddit threads, general forum threads, and discord server discussions. Not merely "a few lore forum threads" (in fact, lore discussions are often lacking any whining about the current plot other than "not long enough" or "not enough lore" in each storybeat).

By the halfway point of Season 1, people wanted more Elder Dragons because the game's very first storyline after Zhaitan seemed unrelated to Elder Dragons entirely. By Season 3, people wanted fewer Elder Dragons and we got White Mantle focus and Balthazar focus and Joko focus back to back; by the time of Joko, though, people were tired of non-Elder Dragons and enjoyed going back to that topic. But by End of Dragons, vocal people were tired of the Elder Dragon plot in general and wanted fresh breath and were looking forward to a new storyline unrelated to Elder Dragons or Aurene.

Nothing forbids an alliance between demons, but by the lore, demons have - with exception of Kryptis - shown little to no signs of any society or hierarchy beyond a crude rudimentary form of kratocracy in small groups, and the only alliances demons have been seen to form are those which created a direct personal benefit - and at that, only with the Big Three of GW1: Dhuum, Abaddon, and Menzies. Eparch making the newest example and sole exception to former gods / demigods.

This isn't like the Elder Dragons that are vaguely tied together even though not allied - going from Demon Ethnicity A to Demon Ethnicity B (i.e., Kryptis to Titans) would be as related as going from Caudecus and the White Mantle to Minister Li and the Purists - both are xenophobic human groups dressed in white, but they hold zero relations to each other.

And there's still a threat justifying the Commander's involvement?

It's not like the Commander got involved with Scarlet, Caudecus, Balthazar, Bangar, and Ankka because dragons - they got involved because either they got involved with the Commander (e.g., Scarlet, Balthazar, Bangar, and Ankka), or the Commander got pulled in by an ally (e.g., Kudu, Caudecus, Ryland). Hell - the same is true for the Elder Dragons. And the same is happening here - the Commander got pulled into SotO because an ally (Gorrik and Ivan) asked them to investigate something that landed them on Cerus' lap and into the incursion mess. In Janthir Wilds, it sounds like either the world leaders are pulling the Commander in, or the Astral Ward is. The bridging connection between SotO and JW is the Astral Ward, not demons with no relation to each other besides being demons.

you are ignoring it because you think listing a bunch of characters that we havent returned to somehow supports your argument when it's got nothing to do with it. You say peitha should be one and done because... she was built that way or something. I'm saying that's not true and she can continue to develop. I'm also saying that anet could use a new thread and perhaps they could use demons. if they did, then peitha would be a good candidate for an ongoing character. according to you, they shouldnt because... well im not sure anymore.

continuing on that hypothetical, peitha's intentions are to take the throne and be a king. so it seems likely she will maintain the kryptis organization. and with that, she may recruit other realms. if the white mantle and purists had a common goal, they would ally as well.

The beginning of many story chapters starts with a call to investigation or a letter. the same is true for SotO. but the difference lies in the wider context. with no eventual goal, the wayfinder is just a superhero fighting a weekly cartoon villain. Like i said, filler episodes are fine for variety. you said yourself people wanted to move away from dragons, then return. because there is something to return to. but now there's nothing. and without that, there's no song, just a rythmic beat of one episode, one problem and no final crescendo.

Also I'd like to point out that many threads that were left open were also resolved during the dragon conflict. similarly, if a new main plot is established, that does not summarily push aside all other plot threads. they can be resolved as well, the same way we visited open threads during our dragon adventures.

[EdwinLi.1284]

2 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

you are ignoring it because you think listing a bunch of characters that we havent returned to somehow supports your argument when it's got nothing to do with it. You say peitha should be one and done because... she was built that way or something. I'm saying that's not true and she can continue to develop. I'm also saying that anet could use a new thread and perhaps they could use demons. if they did, then peitha would be a good candidate for an ongoing character. according to you, they shouldnt because... well im not sure anymore.

continuing on that hypothetical, peitha's intentions are to take the throne and be a king. so it seems likely she will maintain the kryptis organization. and with that, she may recruit other realms. if the white mantle and purists had a common goal, they would ally as well.

The beginning of many story chapters starts with a call to investigation or a letter. the same is true for SotO. but the difference lies in the wider context. with no eventual goal, the wayfinder is just a superhero fighting a weekly cartoon villain. Like i said, filler episodes are fine for variety. you said yourself people wanted to move away from dragons, then return. because there is something to return to. but now there's nothing. and without that, there's no song, just a rythmic beat of one episode, one problem and no final crescendo.

Also I'd like to point out that many threads that were left open were also resolved during the dragon conflict. similarly, if a new main plot is established, that does not summarily push aside all other plot threads. they can be resolved as well, the same way we visited open threads during our dragon adventures.

Long term antagonist is fine even for a sequel storyline but not everything need to be resolved as a result of indirect or direct long term antagonists. Not to mention it is not always best to just establish them right away when the world is literally just recovering.

The current events going through Post-Elder Dragon storyline is that we are literally at the beginning of it. 

Establishing a long term antagonist right away may not be ideal because there are certain things that need to be established first such as a long term organization for such plot, build up to the antagonist, and showing how the world is dealing with the aftermath of the previous storyline.

So far if the Astral Ward ends up a long term organization for the Commander, we established the long term organization and through SotO and also Janthir Wilds, we are establishing the aftermath about how the world is dealing with the aftermath of the Elder Dragon War with the Tyrian Alliance being part of the effects.

The Elder Dragon storyline has the benefits of dealing with all these build up aspect since GW1 and books set before GW2 so they did not need to cover these things in the game. Only establish the Main character being our own and the NPCs who are going to be main characters along side the Commander.

There is also a possibility a long term antagonist may already be planned as well considering what Eparch said before he died since he was oddly certain there is a threat on its way but was not clear about what he means. They maybe going the Nightfall scenario route where each expansion appears disconnected from each other but then reveal everything is connected with each other once they are ready to reveal the long term antagonists while leaving small hints within each expansion for those who can pick up the small hints. 

 

Considering the Mist is so large that we still know little about it, there are probably many things we have not seen that may contradict what the people of Tyria originally believed since their interaction with the Mist was always limited to specific places.

Edited July 16 by EdwinLi.1284

[Kalavier.1097]

There is a difference between "We have our big bad now" (faction or character) and simply letting events happen that have already been built up or could spawn from previous actions.

IF this is the start of a new arc (though they've mentioned wanting to deal with some Tyria stuff that is there, like Sylvari/Norn/Charr rebuilding and moving foward) we are in chapter 1. It's hard to say "There is nothing linking things together or a reason for the commander to go places!" when... we haven't even gone that far.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

15 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Maybe we can finally get a expansion that explains Doern Velazquez and his Secret Origin side plot since they obviously intented for him to be from a country that was not part of GW1 but somewhere beyond in lands we have not explored yet.

The major lore reason why we never got the chance to expand beyond GW1 locations was mostly because the Elder Dragon War preventing them from going Beyond what is already known since GW1. Now with Elder Dragons gone, it should be no surprise if the Tyrian Alliance decided to begin expeditions to regions beyond.

One start to explore new locations is the place Aurene flew to, to nap. 

No way she chose some random place. She must have found a special place, one that gives the best connection to the ley line system. 

Could totally see this happening in a few expansion. (She will most likely be still asleep tho) 

[Fipmip.7219]

6 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Establishing a long term antagonist right away may not be ideal because there are certain things that need to be established first such as a long term organization for such plot, build up to the antagonist, and showing how the world is dealing with the aftermath of the previous storyline.

So far if the Astral Ward ends up a long term organization for the Commander, we established the long term organization and through SotO and also Janthir Wilds, we are establishing the aftermath about how the world is dealing with the aftermath of the Elder Dragon War with the Tyrian Alliance being part of the effects.

The Elder Dragon storyline has the benefits of dealing with all these build up aspect since GW1 and books set before GW2 so they did not need to cover these things in the game. Only establish the Main character being our own and the NPCs who are going to be main characters along side the Commander.

There is also a possibility a long term antagonist may already be planned as well considering what Eparch said before he died since he was oddly certain there is a threat on its way but was not clear about what he means. They maybe going the Nightfall scenario route where each expansion appears disconnected from each other but then reveal everything is connected with each other once they are ready to reveal the long term antagonists while leaving small hints within each expansion for those who can pick up the small hints. 

 

Considering the Mist is so large that we still know little about it, there are probably many things we have not seen that may contradict what the people of Tyria originally believed since their interaction with the Mist was always limited to specific places.

Personally I would have had a 'cooldown expansion' before SotO. One where you visit various odd places on the map like some of the coasts or the isles. The commander is travelling with old comrades, reminiscing on past adventures, and getting into a bunch of mini adventures. maybe you could even choose the order you do the first three maps in. then on the final forth map, a hint of demons would occur and then we'd get into the next main thread. probably would have been a better point to put the homestead feature as well. so in essence, I agree that it should be some time before something new is established. but with SotO, we kind of launched into another world ending crisis straight away, which makes the pacing a bit awkward. The timing so far sort of seems to imply things are either just gonna be episodic crises from now on, or they just did what you said they shouldnt do, which is set up the new arc immediately. In any case, I've already said that I'm just speculating on what anet intends to do.

 

6 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Long term antagonist is fine even for a sequel storyline but not everything need to be resolved as a result of indirect or direct long term antagonists. Not to mention it is not always best to just establish them right away when the world is literally just recovering.

yes it's fine to have filler episodes to vary the pacing. I didnt say they needed to be.

[EdwinLi.1284]

3 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

Personally I would have had a 'cooldown expansion' before SotO. One where you visit various odd places on the map like some of the coasts or the isles. The commander is travelling with old comrades, reminiscing on past adventures, and getting into a bunch of mini adventures. maybe you could even choose the order you do the first three maps in. then on the final forth map, a hint of demons would occur and then we'd get into the next main thread. probably would have been a better point to put the homestead feature as well. so in essence, I agree that it should be some time before something new is established. but with SotO, we kind of launched into another world ending crisis straight away, which makes the pacing a bit awkward. The timing so far sort of seems to imply things are either just gonna be episodic crises from now on, or they just did what you said they shouldnt do, which is set up the new arc immediately. In any case, I've already said that I'm just speculating on what anet intends to do.

 

yes it's fine to have filler episodes to vary the pacing. I didnt say they needed to be.

I think they are just taking the quote from Ankka back in EoD before she died and just making it clear she is right about it.

The talk she gave about how even IF the Commander and his/her allies end the Elder Dragons, there is always another world ending threat just right around the corner that will take their place right after they are gone.
 

"You've never stopped the Apocalypse, you just kept trading up. And now it's time to pay the bill"

 

 

Edited July 16 by EdwinLi.1284

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

16 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

you are ignoring it because you think listing a bunch of characters that we havent returned to somehow supports your argument when it's got nothing to do with it. You say peitha should be one and done because... she was built that way or something. I'm saying that's not true and she can continue to develop. I'm also saying that anet could use a new thread and perhaps they could use demons. if they did, then peitha would be a good candidate for an ongoing character. according to you, they shouldnt because... well im not sure anymore.

It has everything to do with it, but it seems you're either missing or misunderstanding my main point and that may be why you think it's irrelevant.

I am not saying Peitha should be anything. I'm saying that there have been major NPCs - like Peitha's position - who were one and done, just as there have been major NPCs - again, like Peitha's position - that have been brought back once the plot merits their return. Peitha is not a new Dragon's Watch member. She's a major figure tied to a specific geographic location and storyline. The only major NPCs that are constantly involved in plots, are our Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch members. Every other NPC will come and go as the plot demands - Jennah hasn't been involved since Season 3, but didn't just vanish from the game forever, as she's returning for Janthir Wilds.

This was why I used the characters I did - and if you actually read them, you'd note Almorra did return after the core storyline - she returned for a moment in Season 3, she returned for the entire Kralkatorrik arc in Season 4 that was directly tied to her, and she was even part of Icebrood Saga. The very fact you didn't catch this, despite Almorra being the first example I used, shows that you didn't even properly read my response let alone understand what I was saying.

My point is: Currently, we have literally absolutely no idea whether Peitha will return for Janthir Wilds - or the subsequent expansion - or not. You're acting like she absolutely won't and will never return ever again, and acting like I think this is okay, but neither is true. But it's also fine if she doesn't - because not all major NPCs of Plot A will return, and if they do, they only will because it makes sense in the plot.

16 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

continuing on that hypothetical, peitha's intentions are to take the throne and be a king. so it seems likely she will maintain the kryptis organization. and with that, she may recruit other realms. if the white mantle and purists had a common goal, they would ally as well.

What?

Both statements here make no sense. Kryptis are the only organization among demons as I said, and they've never been involved with other realms - and recruiting other realms makes no sense no matter how you spin it, because they are not Kryptis. You're vastly oversimplifying the situation, and basically treating everything "demon" as some amorphous blob of the same thing when it isn't - kryptis are fundamentally different from other demons in two key features - first that they feed off of emotions and dreams; second in that they're not blatantly and completely evil and hostile to mortals - which I had brought up is one of the key definitions of the word "demon" and why kryptis being demons is a massive contradiction.

And it's not like one can simply walk from Nayos to the Underworld or something, even if the demons there that only hold interest in consuming mortal souls would ally with the benevolent Kryptis.

And I won't even bother with the White Mantle and Purists thing - there's very little reason for two xenophobic supremacist groups of opposite ethnicities to ally when they literally view the other group as inferior and not worth dealing with. That's like having the KKK allying with a black supremacist group...

Edited July 16 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And I won't even bother with the White Mantle and Purists thing - there's very little reason for two xenophobic supremacist groups of opposite ethnicities to ally when they literally view the other group as inferior and not worth dealing with. That's like having the KKK allying with a black supremacist group...

Also once faction is destroyed with no resources or numbers left, and the other is in hiding.

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 7/14/2024 at 9:17 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

and tons of other issues Anet can make up, none of which are world ending.

This is my greatest hope for GW2 moving forward, and it's one that Anet essentially promised.

My fear is that the studio will continue to struggle at writing more compelling story, and will repeatedly resort to exaggerating/inflating the scale of the threat in a weak bid to get players to care at all about the narrative.

I think SotO actually succeeded at avoiding this, but I feel like the cryptic stuff Eparch says near the end of the story shows the threat-inflation temptation runs very close to the surface at Anet. Although it would mean Anet will continue to just open new interesting threads and never deliver on them, I'd prefer for them to keep taking this "dying villain says something kinda mysterious" route instead of going back to "OMG we're all gonna die, unless we use the Power of Friendship."

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

14 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

There is a difference between "We have our big bad now" (faction or character) and simply letting events happen that have already been built up or could spawn from previous actions.

IF this is the start of a new arc (though they've mentioned wanting to deal with some Tyria stuff that is there, like Sylvari/Norn/Charr rebuilding and moving foward) we are in chapter 1. It's hard to say "There is nothing linking things together or a reason for the commander to go places!" when... we haven't even gone that far.

Its not even really an IF. Anet has said Janthir Wilds is a continuation of the Astral Ward story, so we know SoTO is a chapter 1 of a larger, multi-xpack, plot.

22 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

This is my greatest hope for GW2 moving forward, and it's one that Anet essentially promised.

My fear is that the studio will continue to struggle at writing more compelling story, and will repeatedly resort to exaggerating/inflating the scale of the threat in a weak bid to get players to care at all about the narrative.

I think SotO actually succeeded at avoiding this, but I feel like the cryptic stuff Eparch says near the end of the story shows the threat-inflation temptation runs very close to the surface at Anet. Although it would mean Anet will continue to just open new interesting threads and never deliver on them, I'd prefer for them to keep taking this "dying villain says something kinda mysterious" route instead of going back to "OMG we're all gonna die, unless we use the Power of Friendship."

Basically everything Eparch says at the end of SoTO is a reflection of his fear from what happened to him during the last dragon rise when he somehow found his was to Tyria, and got ruthlessly chased by Mordremoth and its minions, almost dying in the process, until Isgarren saved him. Its not really threat inflation/exaggerating.

And like, out of the 9 expansion Ideas I posted above, like 7-8 of them(depending on how you view the Deep Sea Monster issue) aren't world ending threats.

Edited July 16 by Sajuuk Khar.1509