I was told on this forum...

[Chaba.5410]

...That defense is dead.  Tonight we in TLC had a lot of fun defending against twice our numbers (2:1 is the proper defender's advantage ratio).  About 12 vs. 36 plus whatever pugs show up to help.  Maybe more like 20 vs 40..  We lost the tower, but that didn't matter because we were having a lot of fun doing stupid new things with the recent changes, especially trebs and trying new strategies.  Defense lasted about 15-20 minutes.  Tied up the other group so they were not simply ktraining.

[starhunter.6015]

Loved that fight tonight, got in a lot of practice sieging attackers with the trebe. Was so nice to be able to get counter siege up quickly for defense without requiring a small group per piece of siege. 

[CafPow.1542]

No you are not allowed to defend. Let alone to have fun! God forbid! 
score!!! Cele!!!! Auras!!! Willbender!!! Stealth!!!!!!

 

(add more buzzwords at will)

[TheGrimm.5624]

2 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

...That defense is dead.  Tonight we in TLC had a lot of fun defending against twice our numbers (2:1 is the proper defender's advantage ratio).  About 12 vs. 36 plus whatever pugs show up to help.  Maybe more like 20 vs 40..  We lost the tower, but that didn't matter because we were having a lot of fun doing stupid new things with the recent changes, especially trebs and trying new strategies.  Defense lasted about 15-20 minutes.  Tied up the other group so they were not simply ktraining.

Is this how you want to open this topic?

[Gop.8713]

So to be clear OP is suggesting that a 2:1 advantage should be more than adequate to flip a defended structure. Everyone is entitled to their own wrong opinion, but I think most ppls who enjoy defense would consider losing a defended structure at that ratio a colossal fail. I also think it's clear that the wvw playerbase is not interested in defense, so I'm fine with the fact that defense is not sustainable, just find it odd that someone would try to use this failure as an illustration of success . . .

[latlat.4516]

57 minutes ago, Gop.8713 said:

So to be clear OP is suggesting that a 2:1 advantage should be more than adequate to flip a defended structure. Everyone is entitled to their own wrong opinion, but I think most ppls who enjoy defense would consider losing a defended structure at that ratio a colossal fail

So, if you loose a structure while being 20 defenders against 40 attackers, you consider this a colossal fail ? Not just a fail, a colossal one !

 

No wonder anet is not too keen about listening every opinion on this forum lol. 

Edited July 21 by latlat.4516

[Codename T.2847]

2 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

No you are not allowed to defend. Let alone to have fun! God forbid! 
score!!! Cele!!!! Auras!!! Willbender!!! Stealth!!!!!!

 

(add more buzzwords at will)

HARBINGERS!! 

[Gop.8713]

27 minutes ago, latlat.4516 said:

So, if you loose a structure while being 20 defenders against 40 attackers, you consider this a colossal fail ? Not just a fail, a colossal one !

 

No wonder anet is not too keen about listening every opinion on this forum lol. 

Yep. If you're going to lose 2:1 may as well do it on the open field. What's the point of the structure if you can't leverage the advantage . . ?

[CafPow.1542]

39 minutes ago, Gop.8713 said:

Yep. If you're going to lose 2:1 may as well do it on the open field. What's the point of the structure if you can't leverage the advantage . . ?

I agree that a structure should give you some advantage. The ratio of attackers vs. defenders could be discussed but in order to take a keep one should kinda outnumber a bit the defenders. Imo.

[Mistwraithe.3106]

More information required.
 

If you held a tower with 12 defenders in squad + 8 pugs vs 40 attackers then presumably you were well organised and they were not a comped Zerg. Seems possible they didnt even have discord.
 

It’s impressive but suggests that your squad was running very well comped squads ie a mini boonball which if anything is supporting the point I and others have been making if 3 times numbers couldn’t break your boonball.

The argument isn’t that defender can’t win. It’s that boonballs are too strong and the fewbonuses which gave uncomped defenders a fighting chance against a comped attacker (eg repairing walls and guild objective bonuses) have been nerfed heavily (by a factor of 5 and 4 respectively, no piddling little 10% nerf, Anet went in with a chainsaw).

Edited July 21 by Mistwraithe.3106

[Chaba.5410]

2 hours ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

More information required.

Opponent: A mix of GONE/Foxy

Us: TLC is a casual late night WvW guild consisting of a mix of players, some who roam, scout, defend, and others who want more structured fights.

[Palikka.8249]

7 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

No you are not allowed to defend. Let alone to have fun! God forbid! 
score!!! Cele!!!! Auras!!! Willbender!!! Stealth!!!!!!

 

(add more buzzwords at will)

Dont forget to nerf ele!

[Chaba.5410]

6 hours ago, Gop.8713 said:

So to be clear OP is suggesting that a 2:1 advantage should be more than adequate to flip a defended structure. Everyone is entitled to their own wrong opinion, but I think most ppls who enjoy defense would consider losing a defended structure at that ratio a colossal fail.

Are you suggesting that defenders should have a higher advantage like 1 defender to 3 attackers?  How exactly would two map queues be able to bring enough players to take a structure defended by a single third map queue at that ratio?  A single map fits only 80 v 80 v 80 players, 80 v 160, 1:2.
 

6 hours ago, Gop.8713 said:

just find it odd that someone would try to use this failure as an illustration of success

You find it odd because you are using a different measure of success from us.  Or as I wrote: "We lost the tower, but that didn't matter because we were having a lot of fun doing stupid new things".  I could probably add losing the tower matters even less while scoring is bugged too.  A person could even use the currently bugged scoring as an opportunity to free themselves from demoralizing thought patterns tied to winning and losing.  Attackers had to come back at least three times.  Or maybe it was four times.

Edited July 21 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

7 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

No you are not allowed to defend. Let alone to have fun! God forbid! 

Games are serious business only and not about having fun.  😉

[Chaba.5410]

7 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

(add more buzzwords at will)

Open field trebs

[Gop.8713]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Are you suggesting that defenders should have a higher advantage like 1 defender to 3 attackers?  How exactly would two map queues be able to bring enough players to take a structure defended by a single third map queue at that ratio?  A single map fits only 80 v 80 v 80 players, 80 v 160, 1:2.

Perhaps they could do something wacky like starting another siege . . ?

[starhunter.6015]

1 hour ago, Gop.8713 said:

Perhaps they could do something wacky like starting another siege . . ?

Oh they did use siege and the first time they deployed the cata's with the shield gens a lil to far behind the cata's.  But we were able to counter siege the enemy by taking out the shield gens they failed to protect while doing splash damage to the cata's. 
Multiple times we forced them away from the tower making them resupply. Seems like the enemy was having a bit of fun themselves too. As they could have stopped any time and came back later.
They finally got the wall down after they learned a bit from their mistakes, and we learned too. They had brought golem this time and snuck in a couple of cata's that we missed seeing placed. 
But at the end it turned into a fun battle in the tower. Where the numbers slowly overtook us.  
Would I play in another fight like that in WvW again. Oh Heck ya I would. 

[Gop.8713]

Another siege objective . . .

[Leaa.2943]

15 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

...That defense is dead.  Tonight we in TLC had a lot of fun defending against twice our numbers (2:1 is the proper defender's advantage ratio).  About 12 vs. 36 plus whatever pugs show up to help.  Maybe more like 20 vs 40..  We lost the tower, but that didn't matter because we were having a lot of fun doing stupid new things with the recent changes, especially trebs and trying new strategies.  Defense lasted about 15-20 minutes.  Tied up the other group so they were not simply ktraining.

I had one hour last night where we where fighting and i had some fun. First time in six week. Awsome evening, but it do not say anything about the rest of the 6 weeks where litterally nothing happen at all. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

I mean nice that you're having fun, but they did make some significant improvements to defense this patch so it's a little unfair to use an anecdote after the patch to dismiss complaints that may have been coming from before.

So it is possible to say that defense was dead and it may not be after the patch-- these are not mutually exclusive.

It would be fine to say they ress'd it up a bit.

I also do want to say that ratios tend to break down the larger numbers get. For example, it's not very hard to defend 5 vs 10. A bit harder to defend 10 vs 20, and hard to defend 20 vs 40. But say 35 vs whatever a map queue tends to be a lot harder is  because there is greater punishment for not being together and sustain tends to make a certain critical mass where it is no longer breakable. 40 or so tends to be the upper limit of where fights are managable, though I suppose the servers are also an issue.

And of course not all players are built alike. Replace some of your pugs with bots or certain forum posters that still don't know how to not get pulled off a wall or most of my ex server mates (acutally why am I separating these-- these are all indistinguishable ) and you have no chance whatsoever of defending it, regardless of how well you play.

Edited July 21 by ArchonWing.9480

[Chaba.5410]

5 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

Awsome evening, but it do not say anything about the rest of the 6 weeks where litterally nothing happen at all. 

That's why I felt it worth highlighting when something fun does happen.  This forum is usually pretty negative about everything.  Take time to smell the roses in a field of weeds.
 

5 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

they did make some significant improvements to defense this patch so it's a little unfair to use an anecdote after the patch to dismiss complaints that may have been coming from before.

I'd rather this be an anecdote to illustrate that the patch did bring improvements to defense after the nerfs than to dismiss past complaints about those nerfs.  When there are improvements, it seems like they get ignored because they don't fit a certain narrative.

[Jobber.6348]

21 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

We lost the tower

So defense IS dead. You just had fun doing it, and that's fine!

But really, you should have just said "I loved this moment we had in WvW session last night" and detailed how you guys had fun. You've proven no points here other than that it's possible to have fun if everyone is invested in just having fun. 

[Mistwraithe.3106]

What were the defence improvements this patch?

[Sheff.4851]

1 hour ago, Jobber.6348 said:

So defense IS dead. You just had fun doing it, and that's fine!

But really, you should have just said "I loved this moment we had in WvW session last night" and detailed how you guys had fun. You've proven no points here other than that it's possible to have fun if everyone is invested in just having fun. 

It's a competitive gamemode. Showing up and playing well doesn't entitle a player to winning automatically, because the opponent is also allowed to show up and play well -- sometimes even better. PvE raid instances like fractals and raids are the place to go if an individual wants to be rewarded for playing well independent of other factors like an enemy player.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 7/21/2024 at 4:25 AM, CafPow.1542 said:

No you are not allowed to defend. Let alone to have fun! God forbid! 
score!!! Cele!!!! Auras!!! Willbender!!! Stealth!!!!!!

 

(add more buzzwords at will)

I don't know, had been asked a number of times last week to stop defending and stop attacking, it was kind of sad since not even in an Alliance when doing said activities. Kind of messed up that. Welcomed all DoT members to join Forum Wars 2 to share what was what and discuss.

Edited July 22 by TheGrimm.5624