Poll: New WvW vs Old WvW system

[jul.7602]

Just to evaluate where we are.

[Sheff.4851]

Certainly a better poll than the last attempt. 🙂

[CafPow.1542]

Yeah the other one was to pollemic.

… 😄 

Edited July 26 by CafPow.1542

[Wolfhound.4381]

This is the first relink since the start of this. It's bound to be a bit rough. Give it time, it'll get better once they get the bugs squashed.

[willow.8209]

my complaint is not even about the relink. It's that during off hours, there are even fewer tags than before. Anet said they had no intention of balancing off hours. However, with the server system your team would be more random so there was usually someone except during the few lowest population hours. Now we still have players during off hours but rarely any tags.

[Sheff.4851]

8 minutes ago, willow.8209 said:

my complaint is not even about the relink. It's that during off hours, there are even fewer tags than before. Anet said they had no intention of balancing off hours. However, with the server system your team would be more random so there was usually someone except during the few lowest population hours. Now we still have players during off hours but rarely any tags.

This is a tricky one to solve, because there's only so many people who are willing to tag in the first place. You can try and spread them out, which the Restructuring system purports to do, but commanding and tagging is inherently player-driven, not game-driven. If you don't see any tags around, you can always throw one up yourself, and it's an excellent opportunity to get involved with organizing the community and achieving some goals while making friends as well.

[Riba.3271]

11 minutes ago, Sheff.4851 said:

20 minutes ago, willow.8209 said:

my complaint is not even about the relink. It's that during off hours, there are even fewer tags than before. Anet said they had no intention of balancing off hours. However, with the server system your team would be more random so there was usually someone except during the few lowest population hours. Now we still have players during off hours but rarely any tags.

This is a tricky one to solve, because there's only so many people who are willing to tag in the first place. You can try and spread them out, which the Restructuring system purports to do, but commanding and tagging is inherently player-driven, not game-driven. If you don't see any tags around, you can always throw one up yourself, and it's an excellent opportunity to get involved with organizing the community and achieving some goals while making friends as well.

People don't tag off hours anymore because:

- If they were not leading on voice comm, they were most likely playing for points. Points don't matter with server system gone.

- If they were on voice comms, then it is impossible to get people to voice now unless you create a guild and set raiding times. Yes, you can build up some people willing to join in 4 weeks with hard effort, but then it will be reset again. I have done off-hour guild and we got strong... But lets be honest, it is not something you can setup a raid schedule for because often there are no enemies and you are forcing yourself to play the game for nothing... You can't even play for points anymore. And all you need are 3 people who can play the game, and some fodder, after that you can kill 99% of enemy groups at offhours, so its very boring to actually have a guild at offhours.

- Now on the off case that they were one of the lunatics that were tagging up for sake of leadership position and skipping the whole "actually having fun and facing challenge" part, maybe new system is fine. But who would want to follow such people during hours when there is very little going on anyways.

Edited July 27 by Riba.3271

[Sheff.4851]

Quote

If they were not leading on voice comm, they were most likely playing for points. Points don't matter with server system gone.

Points didn't matter when the server system was in place either, unless you were playing for pride, and I'm unclear why you'd have more pride for something called "Eredon Terrace" than you would for "Domain of Torment", especially after a decade of playing. Server pride has been dead for years now.

Quote

If they were on voice comms, then it is impossible to get people to voice now unless you create a guild and set raiding times. Yes, you can build up some people willing to join in 4 weeks with hard effort, but then it will be reset again.

True. This is why a lot of public tag culture died off when the relink system was introduced. All of a sudden you may have been training people from the link, who were going to leave in two months anyway. That's been an issue for a long time.

Quote

Now on the off case that they were one of the lunatics that were tagging up for sake of leadership position and skipping the whole "actually having fun and facing challenge" part, maybe new system is fine. But who would want to follow such people during hours when there is very little going on anyways.

The person above you, who said they couldn't find any tags during off-hours.

[Riba.3271]

4 minutes ago, Sheff.4851 said:

Quote

 

Points didn't matter when the server system was in place either, unless you were playing for pride,

Capturing mattered because your team still learnt things and you pushed peoples playhours up. If you want people to get used to eating lot of hamburgers, best way is to put hamburgers restaurants around the country. Same applies to providing WvW content: If you PPT at 2 pm, it will also lead to having more players and experience at 6 pm. Also there was actual competition regarding points, and it was no different than trying to clear PvE raids or winning sPVP games. Or are you saying people shouldn't try their best to win for their team?

4 minutes ago, Sheff.4851 said:

Quote

Now on the off case that they were one of the lunatics that were tagging up for sake of leadership position and skipping the whole "actually having fun and facing challenge" part, maybe new system is fine. But who would want to follow such people during hours when there is very little going on anyways.

The person above you, who said they couldn't find any tags during off-hours.

He didn't say he was tagging up and actually what he said was "I am not crazy enough to tag up myself".

Edited July 27 by Riba.3271

[Sheff.4851]

Quote

Capturing mattered because your team still learnt things and you pushed peoples playhours up. If you want people to get used to eating lot of hamburgers, best way is to put hamburgers restaurants around the country. Same applies to providing WvW content: If you PPT at 2 pm, it will also lead to having more players and experience at 6 pm. Also there was actual competition regarding points, and it was no different than trying to clear PvE raids or winning sPVP games. Or are you saying people shouldn't try their best to win for their team?

I'm saying most people didn't try their best to win for their team, yes. They mostly tried their best to have fun.

[Hesione.9412]

1 hour ago, Sheff.4851 said:

Points didn't matter when the server system was in place either, unless you were playing for pride, and I'm unclear why you'd have more pride for something called "Eredon Terrace" than you would for "Domain of Torment", especially after a decade of playing. Server pride has been dead for years now.

For some people. Your experience is different to that of others. Some players were proud they had always played on the same server, including guild leaders/comms. I wish you would stop assuming intentions/etc of other players.

[Chaba.5410]

42 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

For some people. Your experience is different to that of others. Some players were proud they had always played on the same server, including guild leaders/comms. I wish you would stop assuming intentions/etc of other players.

You and Sheff both used the word "pride".  He DID say the same thing you said - playing for pride.  He assumed there's some players who play for pride and you confirmed his assumption.

Edited July 27 by Chaba.5410

[H K.4057]

As a solo player, I'm starting to warm to this restructuring system. I was on DB for 12 years, and I really was stuck in a rut even if I didn't know it. I'm excited about relink now, and it's always cool to meet new people. I guess it helps that DB was horrible, so pretty much anything feels better now.

[willow.8209]

7 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

If they were on voice comms, then it is impossible to get people to voice now unless you create a guild and set raiding times.

my experience has always been with open tags that if they put a discord in their tag message, people will mostly join. Unless people are being bratty in voice or the commander is running down pugs, but then the pugs are likely to leave the tag.

If people aren't joining voice when a link is provided, it may be for reasons like:

• They're using their headset for something else. Some people for example like to listen to their own music while gaming. Other people like to chat with their partner while each playing different games. Some might need to listen for a pet/ baby/ other care responsibility.
• They have sensory gating issues. This will be magnified if comms are not clear, or the voice server is playing music, etc.
• They have a technical issue with headset
• They are Deaf or hard of hearing
• They speak a different language than the commander
• They have social anxiety

If a discord isn't listed, then yeah, no one is joining voice. As they don't know where to go or don't have an invite to the relevant server.

All bets are off if the listed voice server is a TeamSpeak.

Edited July 27 by willow.8209

[Mabi black.1824]

6 hours ago, Sheff.4851 said:

I'm saying most people didn't try their best to win for their team, yes. They mostly tried their best to have fun.

This way of fantasizing doesn't get you anywhere. WVW is a PvP mode, this alone brings you to that kind of player who likes to test himself through comparison and competition with other players like him. Having an environment, a game design, with clear rules, equal opportunities, on a spiral where winning or losing has even just a symbolic meaning because then what interests you is to participate, helps a lot to entertain the player. 

If you then make this environment, game design interesting, of the type in team format, with a season to play, with regular events in it, then you can also think of stimulating the interest and involvement of these players. make it sterile, flat, useless, where no one is interested in winning, because you manage to find fun alone in there. It's an unintelligent way of looking at the difficulties that WVW has today.

[Perplax.9704]

this new system totally sucks, we are a small guild who arent in any alliance and get randomly reshuffled now. The alliance who most of our old server are is not recruiting so we cant get in, just give back old servers its no fun at all, if this mess continues the game is dead for us.

 

[Gehenna.3625]

13 hours ago, jul.7602 said:

Just to evaluate where we are.

More specifically where the WvW forum visitors stand, which may very well not be representative of the player base.

[Mistwraithe.3106]

If I were to vote right now it would probably be for the old server system.

But, it’s too early. Far too early really. Anet need to work hard because problems abound but it will also take time for both players and the systems/Anet to evolve and see how much merit there is in the new WR.

[Sheff.4851]

12 hours ago, Hesione.9412 said:

For some people. Your experience is different to that of others. Some players were proud they had always played on the same server, including guild leaders/comms. I wish you would stop assuming intentions/etc of other players.

Yeah, that's why I explicitly said that "some people play for pride" in the post. You gotta read past the first few words before you type a reply.

[Sheff.4851]

6 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

This way of fantasizing doesn't get you anywhere. WVW is a PvP mode, this alone brings you to that kind of player who likes to test himself through comparison and competition with other players like him. Having an environment, a game design, with clear rules, equal opportunities, on a spiral where winning or losing has even just a symbolic meaning because then what interests you is to participate, helps a lot to entertain the player. 

If you then make this environment, game design interesting, of the type in team format, with a season to play, with regular events in it, then you can also think of stimulating the interest and involvement of these players. make it sterile, flat, useless, where no one is interested in winning, because you manage to find fun alone in there. It's an unintelligent way of looking at the difficulties that WVW has today.

You test yourself on whether you defeat another player or another group. It doesn't just have to be through who had the most points at the end of the match. That's an indication of how well your team played, but it's not an indication of how well you played. For that measure, it's better to defeat groups that are in front of you, flip objectives that are in front of you, and earn score that's in front of you. And for that, World vs. World enables that very well.

[TheIceman.1039]

11 hours ago, H K.4057 said:

As a solo player, I'm starting to warm to this restructuring system. I was on DB for 12 years, and I really was stuck in a rut even if I didn't know it. I'm excited about relink now, and it's always cool to meet new people. I guess it helps that DB was horrible, so pretty much anything feels better now.

Same here, the reason why we love the nomadic life now. Constantly changing circumstances, a leap into the unknown. New faces. Although, we do it with our whole little Guild. Full size "Alliances" have the same stagnation as the old servers.

[Mabi black.1824]

11 minutes ago, Sheff.4851 said:

You test yourself on whether you defeat another player or another group. It doesn't just have to be through who had the most points at the end of the match. That's an indication of how well your team played, but it's not an indication of how well you played. For that measure, it's better to defeat groups that are in front of you, flip objectives that are in front of you, and earn score that's in front of you. And for that, World vs. World enables that very well.

All true what you wrote here. however with the old server format. where any player had access to both participation and comparison and therefore scoring and ranking, gave a broader meaning to WVW, especially on a longer timeline.  Of course it is my personal opinion, but the previous system could have involved players better, and without exclusions, individual or group. Was it perfect? Of course not. But he could change and improve in many ways, you just had to want to. Was it boring? Of course yes in the perpetual format it was definitely boring, in an annual format it would have been much more dynamic and fun.

[Gop.8713]

We've seen some failures of the new system for a few weeks now. We saw the failures of the old system for years. I'd prefer to see if the failures of the new system can lead us to a better result than the failures of the old system managed . . .

[Cameirus.8407]

37 minutes ago, Gop.8713 said:

We've seen some failures of the new system for a few weeks now. We saw the failures of the old system for years. I'd prefer to see if the failures of the new system can lead us to a better result than the failures of the old system managed . . .

I'm still not sure what the positives of the new system are supposed to be, let alone what they actually are.

Servers had communities, had continuity, were stable, had at least partially balanced matches and the ability to collect decent data to balance them. servers also tended to congregate same languages etc in the EU.

[Sheff.4851]

5 hours ago, Cameirus.8407 said:

I'm still not sure what the positives of the new system are supposed to be, let alone what they actually are.

Servers had communities, had continuity, were stable, had at least partially balanced matches and the ability to collect decent data to balance them. servers also tended to congregate same languages etc in the EU.

We covered some of the issues with the server system in the recent developer interview that I did with Roy and Cecil. If you don't want to watch the video, basically, it boils down to the fact that the player base will always attempt to stack a server for easy wins, and the only way that ArenaNet can address that problem is by opening and closing servers, which is determined by activity relative to the highest pop server. As a result, activity gets focused into high pop servers and low pop servers, instead of getting distributed evenly across all servers available.