At this point, ranger will be just a better warrior AND a better thief

[Shagie.7612]

boy i sure didn't expect a 10 ele MAT okay cus difficult justification to be the way the forums go in 2024

[Sahne.6950]

14 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Sorry but this really is 101 good balance ethos,

It has been brought up numerous times. Generally speaking, you dont wanna balance the classes from Worst to best, depending on how hard they are to play.

 

No class should be objectively worse, simply because its easier to play. 

And no class should be constantly dominating hightier meta, just because its the hardest to play.

Thats a REALLY bad idea, and miles away from 101 good balance ethos.   

 

In a ideal game, all classes perform rouuughly in the same ballpark, and the player can then choose how big of challenge they seek.

 

with all due respect,i think its rather immature to lash at difficulty of play.  I dont really care how difficult the other persons build is.  i really dont.

All i care for is, if interacting with the mechanics of my enemy is fun or not.  

You need to build that level of maturity to be proud to beat other people altho your class is alot harder to play... not the other way around. 

You shouldnt get mad at people for playing the easy classes........ you should be proud of yourself.     Thats key here.   

Dont be angry... be proud.

Edited August 1 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

14 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Or look, are you saying core ele is the exact same mechanical difficulty as cata? That jade manedgement+additional combos don't up the mechanical difficulty?

No it doesnt up the difficulty whatsoever.    Infact, Cata is easier to play. And ill gladly explain why.

The fact you rofl a sphere under you feet, doesnt make it harder to play....  infact, the boonshower it provides makes the whole experience alot more forgiving, and overall gives easier access to the combofield you want.

But even when completly ignoring the sphere mechanic, the sole fact that you randomly procc stabi by just existing and performing skills makes it alot easier to play.  You can facetank so many CC´s that would otherwise interrupt your flow big time.  Staunch auras is literally autopiloting for you. Thats why its alot easier to play.

 

Your understanding of difficulty is too narrow here.  Its not more difficult to have one button more....

Sometimes, adding that one button, makes the whole class easier, simply because of the tools it provides, or simply because of some trait that is autopiloting for you in the background.

Spoiler

(btw, no you dont play cata diffrent to core because of additional combos. You wanna combo just as much on core as you do on cata.  you dont perfom a single combofinisher, withou laying down a field first, infact its more difficult the ready up those fields, where cata can just press a single button and poops a GIGANTIC waterfield, yet again showing that core is infact more difficult to play, altho having less buttons.

There is more layers to difficulty then the number of buttons you can press.  😃

Edited August 1 by Sahne.6950

[Flowki.7194]

5 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

It has been brought up numerous times. Generally speaking, you dont wanna balance the classes from Worst to best, depending on how hard they are to play.

 

No class should be objectively worse, simply because its easier to play. 

And no class should be constantly dominating hightier meta, just because its the hardest to play.

Thats a REALLY bad idea, and miles away from 101 good balance ethos.   

 

In a ideal game, all classes perform rouuughly in the same ballpark, and the player can then choose how big of challenge they seek.

 

with all due respect,i think its rather immature to lash at difficulty of play.  I dont really care how difficult the other persons build is.  i really dont.

All i care for is, if interacting with the mechanics of my enemy is fun or not.  

You need to build that level of maturity to be proud to beat other people altho your class is alot harder to play... not the other way around. 

You shouldnt get mad at people for playing the easy classes........ you should be proud of yourself.     Thats key here.   

Dont be angry... be proud.

 

You might be better at the game than me but I know a lot about psychology, and I'm telling you with absolute confidence that proportionately rewarding effort will hold onto a larger playerbase. It is found time and time again that where unfairness is percieved, engagement reduces, and resentment increases. Honeslty, you are wrong on this one.

 

5 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

No it doesnt up the difficulty whatsoever.    Infact, Cata is easier to play. And ill gladly explain why.

The fact you rofl a sphere under you feet, doesnt make it harder to play....  infact, the boonshower it provides makes the whole experience alot more forgiving, and overall gives easier access to the combofield you want.

But even when completly ignoring the sphere mechanic, the sole fact that you randomly procc stabi by just existing and performing skills makes it alot easier to play.  You can facetank so many CC´s that would otherwise interrupt your flow big time.  Staunch auras is literally autopiloting for you. Thats why its alot easier to play.

 

Your understanding of difficulty is too narrow here.  Its not more difficult to have one button more....

Sometimes, adding that one button, makes the whole class easier, simply because of the tools it provides, or simply because of some trait that is autopiloting for you in the background.

  Reveal hidden contents

(btw, no you dont play cata diffrent to core because of additional combos. You wanna combo just as much on core as you do on cata.  you dont perfom a single combofinisher, withou laying down a field first, infact its more difficult the ready up those fields, where cata can just press a single button and poops a GIGANTIC waterfield, yet again showing that core is infact more difficult to play, altho having less buttons.

There is more layers to difficulty then the number of buttons you can press.  😃

 

Cata is not easier to play why are you even saying this?, it is more effective, that is not the same as mechanical difficulty. Once you overcome the learning curve (higher mechanical difficulty) of cata, then yes, it becomes more forgiving than core ele, but that does not take away the fact it is mechanically harder to learn.. which is a proccess that the player has to go through, as in.. take all those deaths while learning. It also ups the potential error rate, so also requires higher consistancy, which entails more practice to maintain the level required to play cata and reap the benefits over core ele. Cmon man don't argue against this, you know what I am saying is right.

 

Again, respectfully, I think you are confusing effectiveness with difficulty when it comes to amount of abilitys.

 

I understand it is not all about mechanical difficulty, the fact that I state core rev/vindi feel around the same mechanical difficulty in their own roles shows that, becuase I then state that power vindi is more punishing. I see it in ratios basically:

1. How mechanically hard is a spec 1 = easy,10 = hard

2. How risky/punishing for mistakes is a spec 1 = less risky/punishing, 10 = more risky/punishing

3. How effective within its role is the spec 1 = not effective, 10 = very effective.

Those ratios can change with a players skill level, they are not fixed.

 

So keep that in mind, and ill give a "ballpark" example.

 

A low skilled DD thief is: 8/10 difficulty - 10/10 risk-punishment - 2/10 effective

A high skilled DD thief: 8/10 difficulty - 3/10 risk-punishment - 8/10 effective

This is just a rough example but the ratios are the important thing. As a thief gets better, the risk goes down, effectiveness goes up, but the difficulty is still the same. This decline in risk is what people complain about the most. At a certain skill level, thieves become nion untouchable to most specs, and the fact that it is "hard to play" no longer justifies it. Vindi is now the same. It is hard to play, and punishing for mistakes, but at a certain skill level those punishments are reduced, and the damage it can put out is no logner justifiable, yet it is still a difficult spec to play.

 

My argument is that DD/vindi should be performing well, becuase they are difficult.. but the issue is that getting near the master point negates the risk/punishment of those specs, so it is all win/win.. and that eleme is what needs to be changed. Lowered vindi damage, more risk for skilled thieves.

 

Again, these ratios matter, becuase if you can get thief/vindi level effectiveness with condi mech level effort? That aint a game any of us would play. You can all sit there and pretend otherwise.. but I know the literature behind all this. Lower skill specs that are as effective as higher skill specs will absolutely kill off the representation of higher skilled specs, it is already happening in GW2 as we speak. The only people defending it are people benefiting from it, or those who don't comprehend what it leads to /killing off of spec diversity.

There are lots of people over the years on these forums who have stated they stopped playing the game/or higher skilled/punishing specs becuase of these lopsided ratios, as in: 4/10 difficulty - 5/10 risk-punishment - 8/10 effective (Condi zerker at its prime)

 

Edited August 1 by Flowki.7194

[Sahne.6950]

25 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

You might be better at the game than me but I know a lot about psychology, and I'm telling you with absolute confidence that proportionately rewarding effort will hold onto a larger playerbase. It is found time and time again that where unfairness is percieved, engagement reduces, and resentment increases. Honeslty, you are wrong on this one.

 

 

Cata is not easier to play why are you even saying this?, it is more effective, that is not the same as mechanical difficulty. Once you overcome the learning curve (higher mechanical difficulty) of cata, then yes, it becomes more forgiving than core ele, but that does not take away the fact it is mechanically harder to learn.. which is a proccess that the player has to go through, as in.. take all those deaths while learning. It also ups the potential error rate, so also requires higher consistancy, which entails more practice to maintain the level required to play cata and reap the benefits over core ele. Cmon man don't argue against this, you know what I am saying is right.

 

Again, respectfully, I think you are confusing effectiveness with difficulty when it comes to amount of abilitys.

 

I understand it is not all about mechanical difficulty, the fact that I state core rev/vindi feel around the same mechanical difficulty in their own roles shows that, becuase I then state that power vindi is more punishing. I see it in ratios basically:

1. How mechanically hard is a spec 1 = easy,10 = hard

2. How risky/punishing for mistakes is a spec 1 = less risky/punishing, 10 = more risky/punishing

3. How effective within its role is the spec 1 = not effective, 10 = very effective.

Those ratios can change with a players skill level, they are not fixed.

 

So keep that in mind, and ill give a "ballpark" example.

 

A low skilled DD thief is: 8/10 difficulty - 10/10 risk-punishment - 2/10 effective

A high skilled DD thief: 8/10 difficulty - 3/10 risk-punishment - 8/10 effective

This is just a rough example but the ratios are the important thing. As a thief gets better, the risk goes down, effectiveness goes up, but the difficulty is still the same. This decline in risk is what people complain about the most. At a certain skill level, thieves become nion untouchable to most specs, and the fact that it is "hard to play" no longer justifies it. Vindi is now the same. It is hard to play, and punishing for mistakes, but at a certain skill level those punishments are reduced, and the damage it can put out is no logner justifiable, yet it is still a difficult spec to play.

 

My argument is that DD/vindi should be performing well, becuase they are difficult.. but the issue is that getting near the master point negates the risk/punishment of those specs, so it is all win/win.. and that eleme is what needs to be changed. Lowered vindi damage, more risk for skilled thieves.

 

Again, these ratios matter, becuase if you can get thief/vindi level effectiveness with condi mech level effort? That aint a game any of us would play. You can all sit there and pretend otherwise.. but I know the literature behind all this. Lower skill specs that are as effective as higher skill specs will absolutely kill off the representation of higher skilled specs, it is already happening in GW2 as we speak. The only people defending it are people benefiting from it, or those who don't comprehend what it leads to /killing off of spec diversity.

There are lots of people over the years on these forums who have stated they stopped playing the game/or higher skilled/punishing specs becuase of these lopsided ratios, as in: 4/10 difficulty - 5/10 risk-punishment - 8/10 effective (Condi zerker at its prime)

 

Cata is core with a extra button that vomits boons, and clears aegis and blinds at will.

There is exactly 0 learningcurve when transitioning from core d/d to  d/d cata.   You do the exact same skills you do on core. 

0 difference.

I mean it, the way i said it.

you are overthinking cata if you dont see that. ^_^

Edited August 1 by Sahne.6950

[Flowki.7194]

2 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Cata is core with a extra button that vomits boons, and clears aegis and blinds at will.

There is exactly 0 learningcurve when transitioning from core d/d to  d/d cata. 

I mean it, the way i said it. 

 

you are overthinking cata if you dont see that. ^_^

I main that profession... and cata is literally core+. 

The problem is youre a very good player, and you forgot what it was like going from core to cata, and have no comprehention of players who are still in that transition stage. You are basically being dismissive.

[Sahne.6950]

5 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The problem is youre a very good player, and you forgot what it was like going from core to cata, and have no comprehention of players who are still in that transition stage. You are basically being dismissive.

No i am not....   what gameplay difference is there between core d/d and cata d/d... 

What do you do diffrent....  exactly.. nothing.

You literally just press any sphere before your burst to ensure it lands.   Thats it... thats the difference. 

Bonuspoints if you combo your watersphere for sustain.

There is no gameplay difference, besides pressing your sphere if you have it.

 

Dont overthink cata. It literally is that simple.

Edited August 1 by Sahne.6950

[Flowki.7194]

12 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

No i am not....   what gameplay difference is there between core d/d and cata d/d... 

What do you do diffrent....  exactly.. nothing.

You literally just press any sphere before your burst to ensure it lands.   Thats it... thats the difference. 

Bonuspoints if you combo your watersphere for sustain.

 

There is an entire extra mechanic placed ontop, which opens up the manedgment of that mechanic for added sustain or dps. Obviously you are choosing to completely downplay that, which is fine. 

 

I could do the same on rev, and say "its only energy manedgement", yet I know very good players who tried rev, with the top complaing being that energy manedgment.

Edited August 1 by Flowki.7194

[Sahne.6950]

25 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

There is an entire extra mechanic placed ontop, which opens up the manedgment of that mechanic for added sustain or dps. Obviously you are choosing to completely downplay that, which is fine. 

 

I could do the same on rev, and say "its only energy manedgement", yet I know very good players who tried rev, with the top complaing being that energy manedgment.

You arw overthinking it hard. Just use the sphere before a burst. 

Sphere will be under you, and you naturally combo it, giving you stabi during your burst.

And watersphere if your are low. Self explanatory.

Thats the "managing" you are talking about...  that kind of gameplay will easily get you Gold.

 

I would agree if comboing was a new thing introduced with cata... but you are already comboing EVERY finisher you have. 

If anything its easier, cuz you can just use your finishers whenever and instancast a sphere below it.  Instead of comboin everything into burningspeed and icey burst.

Edited August 1 by Sahne.6950

[Flowki.7194]

3 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

You arw overthinking it hard. Just use the sphere before a burst. 

And watersphere if your are low. 

I am dead serious.

I say you are downplaying it, you say I am overthinking it, probably best to leave it at that.

[Vancho.8750]

This is so funny, so the thread is about Ranger stealing the identity of professions, but its so derailed that the the main subject is "easy" vs "hard" professions all the while there is some ego trip about playing Catalyst is "the hardest professions in the game" cause it has Energy and spheres and warrior is the easiest since it has adrenaline and bursts that "totally are not the same thing" .
@Sahne.6950 I like that you are trying to explain reason here but I think it its pointless.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

44 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

This is so funny, so the thread is about Ranger stealing the identity of professions, but its so derailed that the the main subject is "easy" vs "hard" professions all the while there is some ego trip about playing Catalyst is "the hardest professions in the game" cause it has Energy and spheres and warrior is the easiest since it has adrenaline and bursts that "totally are not the same thing" .
@Sahne.6950 I like that you are trying to explain reason here but I think it its pointless.

kitten you right mb

*clears throat*

Ranger has a pretty big kit and i still havent gotten over that suggestions made for weapon kits to reset cds on warrior got implemented through ranger while warrior weapons struggle to get meaningful reworks.

It's like the devs for ranger thumb through the warrior forums for design inspiration, and the devs for warrior wake up in a cold sweat the day before the group project to ship a mechanic. Staff is more populat than greatsword now, even after the nerfs, because pressing buttons on staff give you something useful immediately instead of stupid-checking your target and doing no damage or utility if they know to dodge "big sword swing" anims.

 I'm just trying to get the attention ranger gets ngl. Not trying to be rude.

There we go back on track ❤️

[Supernova Starr.2069]

On 7/29/2024 at 3:51 PM, Flowki.7194 said:

Ontop of that, WB/reaper/SPB combined are the most represented specs atm, by FAR. They are the current min/max, so to argue people are playing these "becuase they are fun" is absolute bs. They will move onto the next min/max, just like the p2s will move onto the next "vindi"

I can guarantee, most WBs are roleplayers

[arazoth.7290]

3 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

This is so funny, so the thread is about Ranger stealing the identity of professions, but its so derailed that the the main subject is "easy" vs "hard" professions all the while there is some ego trip about playing Catalyst is "the hardest professions in the game" cause it has Energy and spheres and warrior is the easiest since it has adrenaline and bursts that "totally are not the same thing" .
@Sahne.6950 I like that you are trying to explain reason here but I think it its pointless.

dooo not ruin my daily reading !

[Vancho.8750]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

kitten you right mb

*clears throat*

Ranger has a pretty big kit and i still havent gotten over that suggestions made for weapon kits to reset cds on warrior got implemented through ranger while warrior weapons struggle to get meaningful reworks.

It's like the devs for ranger thumb through the warrior forums for design inspiration, and the devs for warrior wake up in a cold sweat the day before the group project to ship a mechanic. Staff is more populat than greatsword now, even after the nerfs, because pressing buttons on staff give you something useful immediately instead of stupid-checking your target and doing no damage or utility if they know to dodge "big sword swing" anims.

 I'm just trying to get the attention ranger gets ngl. Not trying to be rude.

There we go back on track ❤️

Nah Ranger needs rebalance it doesn't follow the kitten show that the rest of the professions are, pumping 2 shot damage while face tanking kitten that. Some professions have to follow some kitten paradigm like thief, Warrior or necro and when they are meta together (which probably when the game is most balanced) everyone screams but Ranger 2 shots your kitten and facetnaks you, no problem. There is so much wrong with the coefficients on the buggers that you can run around with condi stats and deal more power damage then warrior or necro cause there so many stupid edge cases with pets or skills that it becomes stupid. Supposedly the damage is split between the pet and the ranger 75%/25% but most of the builds I see the Ranger doing way more damage then Any glass necro, warrior or even thief. This easily fixed with CD increase here , coefficient reduction there, but it doesn't fix the main issue with being great at everything all the while having no defined purpose in any of the elite specs.

"We leave the players decide what the direction is, nieh ni nieh " kittening Anet garbage throw kitten at the wall design based on feedback from lame kittens that give only kitten about numbers, some rule of cool is needed yesterday. 

The designer committed the grave sin of making all Ranger specs lame with not identity, well except if you consider fart clouds Identity, maybe it has one. 

@arazoth.7290 Nah you get only to read how grandpa yells at the GW2 lame clouds.

Edited August 1 by Vancho.8750

[arazoth.7290]

3 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

 

@arazoth.7290 Nah you get only to read how grandpa yells at the GW2 lame clouds.

🥺

[Vancho.8750]

1 minute ago, arazoth.7290 said:

🥺

Ah come now, cheer up, I bet mister flow will say something stupid just for you.

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Ah come now, cheer up, I bet mister flow will say something stupid just for you.

<ranger is too hard for the average warrior>

[bq pd.2148]

14 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

<ranger is too hard for the average warrior>

the character creation process has the same amount of steps for warrior and ranger

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Ah come now, cheer up, I bet mister flow will say something stupid just for you.

I am enjoying the entire thread 😁

[Vancho.8750]

7 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

<ranger is too hard for the average warrior>

Don't assume kitten, I might be Ranger main too or Necro main or got forbid Guardian.

For the average noob pictures on the forum mean too much.

Edited August 2 by Vancho.8750

[Hotride.2187]

9 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

<ranger is too hard for the average warrior>

Me, going on my ranger. "Woah... I press buttons and the dmg LANDS???? ... holy kitten ..."
Yeah... too hard. Laughed so hard at this one.

[Sahne.6950]

11 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Ah come now, cheer up, I bet mister flow will say something stupid just for you.

 

10 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

<ranger is too hard for the average warrior>

That kittening killed me XD   Comedy award of the day goes to @Flowki.7194! i literally spat out my morningcoffee at work.

Edited August 2 by Sahne.6950

[arazoth.7290]

31 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

 

That kittening killed me XD   Comedy award of the day goes to @Flowki.7194! i literally spat out my morningcoffee at work.

Let me do something ontop of this. I killed yesterday 1v1 an untamed ranger mace/mace + hammer with core rev 😉

[Endo.1652]

23 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I could do the same on rev, and say "its only energy manedgement", yet I know very good players who tried rev, with the top complaing being that energy manedgment.

Its because people dont grasp on when they should be pressing energy meld. Once you learn that, this class becomes 100% easier