Spear Feedback Response

[Loboling.5293]

Hey everyone, 

We just got a response to the feedback on Ele Spear. I didn't get a chance to try it, but I'd love to hear how you feel these changes will affect the weapon.

 

Quote

Elementalist

Spear-wielding elementalists sought to harness the power of natural disasters to bring calamity to their enemies. It is the most visually ambitious weapon we have created, and we couldn’t be prouder of the Art Team’s work. However, in the beta, the damage wasn’t as impressive as the visuals were. We agree with the feedback that the weapon’s power level landed too low, and you can expect to see damage increases for all game modes, especially for the capstone etching skills.

Alongside damage enhancements, we’ll be making the following quality-of-life adjustments to the weapon. Etching durations will be increased by a few seconds, while Ripple’s distance is now controllable through a ground target. Seethe and Energize will not affect autoattacks, and the visual noise of etchings has been reduced. We’ve also added a strike-damage component to Fulgor and rebalanced some of its effectiveness away from the damage over time in PvE for a more immediate effect. We’re hoping these changes result in a smoother experience with greater impact.

 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Nothing much changed then, it'll still be uber gimmick weapon even worse than Hammer. Out of all things to change on that weapon they focused on things that can be done in 1 workday...

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

These changes are welcome, sadly I find them quite obvious ... and minor.  No word on dual attacks/weaver, or AA and #2 between each elements.
They seem to be sticking with their gimmick of Etching + the same filler skills in all elements, without paying too much attention to the details or viability in all game modes.
Even though it would be easier to play, I'm not a fan at all.

I guess we'll see a lot of elementalist first days trying the new fancy animations, then they will mysteriously disappear in favor of mesmer.

Edited August 7 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Rittsu.5698]

5 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

These changes are welcome, sadly I find them quite obvious ... and minor.  No word on dual attacks/weaver, or AA and #2 between each elements.
They seem to be sticking with their gimmick of Etching + the same filler skills in all elements, without paying too much attention to the details or viability in all game modes.
Even though it would be easier to play, I'm not a fan at all.

I guess we'll see a lot of elementalist first days trying the new fancy animations, then they will mysteriously disappear in favor of mesmer.

I Just would like the autos counting like physical projects and some chill into water. Whats the sense in be able to create a combo field if i cant enchant my autos there.

[rwknoll.7824]

I, for one, am very excited and encouraged. All of the changes they have shared were repeatedly and vocally requested and will greatly improve quality of life with the weapon for all Ele players. I withhold judgment about Weaver and concerns about dual attacks until we see the patch notes. But I am way more excited to use the spear again now and hope that it will be one of the weapons I enjoy on my main character. 

[DaKillaOfHell.5907]

They responded to the most obvious problems where I'd say that is great.

 

However, I don't think that will change something about the not-so obvious problem and that is the integration with class or rather elite spec mechanics.

This will probably still feel lackluster.

Up to now I see no reason to even consider changing for a tempest or weaver on the spear because other options are in every way far better.

If it is a viable choice for Catalyst, that remains to be seen.

[draxynnic.3719]

It pretty much hits the main pain points apart from the "just which elite specialisation is this for" one. Tempests and catalysts want to be in close, at least in PvE, and it does feel like they did... more than the absolute minimum for weaver, but not by much.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I think everyone understood : rather than creating new specializations with weapons tied to the whole concept, they wanted to make themed weapons with their own mechanics ... yet it often looks like they forgot or didn't care about previous mechanics.
But on already complex or overwhelmed specs, like for example ... elementalist, with no weapon swap, 4 elements, dual attacks, energy management etc ... it's starting to become burdensome.

It seems they don't want to change their approach. Pistol is crazy enough, and now landspear with 5 4 3 2 5 rotation regardless e-spec, role .. I'm a little disappointed.

[Dadnir.5038]

11 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

I think everyone understood : rather than creating new specializations with weapons tied to the whole concept, they wanted to make themed weapons with their own mechanics ... yet it often looks like they forgot or didn't care about previous mechanics.

I wouldn't say that it's the real issue, after all, they didn't forget auras on pistol...

I'd say that the main issue is more that they are affraid of stepping outside of the boundaries of some kind of "template" that they've defined for each profession. And the elementalist's template boundaries seem especially rigid. Fire can only do damage, Air is for CC and mobility, Earth is defensive, Water is for sustain, a weapon's elements skills can't vary in range, Auras belong to elementalist, somehow elementalist can't have access to some conditions like poison, torment or confusion (which doesn't make sense)... etc.

Because they don't want to overstep those imaginary boundaries, they just focus on a thematical aspect that will tickle the RP player's fantasy and add a layer of mechanic that just make thing worse for the players with a more competitive mindset.

[Twilightmage.8309]

I'm still not even sure what elite spec this weapon is for. Tempest is melee due to overloads, weaver got shafted with the dual skills not even doing damage, maybe cata but it still seems pretty underwhelming.

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I wouldn't say that it's the real issue, after all, they didn't forget auras on pistol...

I'd say that the main issue is more that they are affraid of stepping outside of the boundaries of some kind of "template" that they've defined for each profession. And the elementalist's template boundaries seem especially rigid. Fire can only do damage, Air is for CC and mobility, Earth is defensive, Water is for sustain, a weapon's elements skills can't vary in range, Auras belong to elementalist, somehow elementalist can't have access to some conditions like poison, torment or confusion (which doesn't make sense)... etc.

Because they don't want to overstep those imaginary boundaries, they just focus on a thematical aspect that will tickle the RP player's fantasy and add a layer of mechanic that just make thing worse for the players with a more competitive mindset.

Some of this is due to what's in the elemental trait lines... but yeah, they could probably stand to loosen some of those boundaries. GW1 allowed you to take many different approaches with a given element, being able to vary things up with a weapon rather than being just "pistol is a condition weapon so air isn't a damage attunement on pistol" would make things a bit more interesting.

In this case, though, it does feel more like they've just made the profession to complicated to really work with, so they've just been coasting on the bare minimum since Weaver. Especially when it comes to making the new weapons actually work with Weaver... which is tragic when Weaver would otherwise be the best elite specialisation for going full ranged with.

[Panda.1967]

On 8/7/2024 at 3:52 PM, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

These changes are welcome, sadly I find them quite obvious ... and minor.  No word on dual attacks/weaver,

Yeah… very obvious and simple fixes…

regarding the dual attacks however… spear has some of the better designed dual attacks that I’ve seen lately… though their attunement CD gimmick is honestly a bit insulting… it either needs to be added to ALL dual attacks on ALL weapons, or they just need to change how the CD works for weaver in general to just allow full Attunement on double tap period…

[Dadnir.5038]

38 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Some of this is due to what's in the elemental trait lines... but yeah, they could probably stand to loosen some of those boundaries. GW1 allowed you to take many different approaches with a given element, being able to vary things up with a weapon rather than being just "pistol is a condition weapon so air isn't a damage attunement on pistol" would make things a bit more interesting.

Oh, come on, the elementalist's player base have been begging the devs to give them a water skill set that's not plagued with some crapy healing since 2012. Even with the spear, that they specifically said would be damage oriented, they couldn't help trashing the water attunment and kicking it right into the healing hole. And I think the worse is that even frostbow is crippled with their narrowmindset about "water" on elementalist.

49 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Especially when it comes to making the new weapons actually work with Weaver... which is tragic when Weaver would otherwise be the best elite specialisation for going full ranged with.

Is it? Let's be fair, the game's dynamic does not favor ranged gameplay. If anything, pure ranged weapons are detrimental to the elementalist as a whole since the elementalist can't weapon swap in combat.

Weaver have access to a pure ranged weapon since PoF release and, except for very niche opportunities, it has never been greater than what the other specs offer.

Isn't it more some kind of longing you have and a bit of unwillingness to see a bit of potential lost to mechanics that lead you to this statement?

[Jski.6180]

I am hoping the etching are doable duration but 1/2 pules effect. They may end up being to powerful if they are 8 sec but still have there base pules effect for more effect.

Dmg is the most important thing they need to buff on spear in wvw and spvp (pve only aimed weapons die out fast.)

[rabbitofharmony.6943]

I'm happy to see a lot of shared opinions with mine, my fixation being on weaver.

I've played weaver with staff for so long just for the sake of how it thematically feels, and I feel like spear has SO much potential to allow one to fall deeper into that theme.

The feeling of positioning yourself away from the enemy to channel powerful destructive magic while your golem or friend keep foes off of you. The feeling of being a squishy mage

Weaver for this weapon seems like a no brainer, it would have awesome flow and feel, but without the dual attacks doing a tick of damage, Superior Elements is null.

And that  leaves you with taking the "Elemental Pursuit" or "Masters Fortitude" which i feel doesn't match with this weapon at all.
Superspeed on a chance condition? Extra vitality when we are making a dark pact to replace our bones with glass?

The weapon for me personally is a dream come true, i will use it regardless, but without that tick on the dual attacks. or some change to weavers t1 trait selection, it will be bitter sweet.

[Juniper.8197]

10 hours ago, Twilightmage.8309 said:

I'm still not even sure what elite spec this weapon is for. Tempest is melee due to overloads, weaver got shafted with the dual skills not even doing damage, maybe cata but it still seems pretty underwhelming.

That's for you, the player, to figure out and not for the devs to worry about. /s

I'm only half joking, but these new weapons are just "new" ways to play the game, now that new elite specs are no longer a viable model.

[Twilightmage.8309]

6 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Oh, come on, the elementalist's player base have been begging the devs to give them a water skill set that's not plagued with some crapy healing since 2012. Even with the spear, that they specifically said would be damage oriented, they couldn't help trashing the water attunment and kicking it right into the healing hole. And I think the worse is that even frostbow is crippled with their narrowmindset about "water" on elementalist.

Is it? Let's be fair, the game's dynamic does not favor ranged gameplay. If anything, pure ranged weapons are detrimental to the elementalist as a whole since the elementalist can't weapon swap in combat.

Weaver have access to a pure ranged weapon since PoF release and, except for very niche opportunities, it has never been greater than what the other specs offer.

Isn't it more some kind of longing you have and a bit of unwillingness to see a bit of potential lost to mechanics that lead you to this statement?

Also been begging for an ele wep that focuses on lightning as the damaging attunement, but its been some weird hybrid of strike and cc forever outside of some specific uses like fresh air tempest in pve, and even then you spend a lot of time in fire as well.

[Gorani.7205]

Getting more time to charge up the Etching is good and we might be able to escape the "5-2-3-4-5" rotation and franticly hitting skills to make #5 useful/damaging and not just enjoing a light/particle show.
I still don't see Ele on spear being "good at range", when combat and damage is supposed to happen beyond the 600/900 range. Way too many mechanics (like Tempest overloads as one example need to happen in melee to 600 range).

[Twilightmage.8309]

yeah and people have been begging for tempest overloads to get a trait or option to be ranged aoe skills too.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 8/9/2024 at 11:32 PM, Panda.1967 said:

Yeah… very obvious and simple fixes…

regarding the dual attacks however… spear has some of the better designed dual attacks that I’ve seen lately… though their attunement CD gimmick is honestly a bit insulting… it either needs to be added to ALL dual attacks on ALL weapons, or they just need to change how the CD works for weaver in general to just allow full Attunement on double tap period…

I think the logic there is that spear's theme is so heavily built around skill 5 that they want you to be able to switch to dropping the next etching ASAP, so that's a means of getting around that. Most weapon sets don't have too much of their identity built around the 4 or 5 skills, so the deliberate weakness of Weaver taking a bit of forethought to access those skills was reasonable. Spear is different in this respect, so it gets a shortcut.

Doesn't excuse skimping on the dual skills in a way that means they don't work with a weaver trait, but I can see the logic there.

On 8/9/2024 at 11:35 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Oh, come on, the elementalist's player base have been begging the devs to give them a water skill set that's not plagued with some crapy healing since 2012. Even with the spear, that they specifically said would be damage oriented, they couldn't help trashing the water attunment and kicking it right into the healing hole. And I think the worse is that even frostbow is crippled with their narrowmindset about "water" on elementalist.

Not sure what your argument here is, given my whole point is to acknowledge that the traitlines have an effect but that as more weapons are introduced, it would be nice to see more feasible ways to use an element. The Snowcrows power tempest build shows that having water, both the attunement and the traitline, be part of a DPS loop is possible, although that specific example is a fresh air build so it's mostly in air attunement.

On 8/9/2024 at 11:35 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Is it? Let's be fair, the game's dynamic does not favor ranged gameplay. If anything, pure ranged weapons are detrimental to the elementalist as a whole since the elementalist can't weapon swap in combat.

Weaver have access to a pure ranged weapon since PoF release and, except for very niche opportunities, it has never been greater than what the other specs offer.

Isn't it more some kind of longing you have and a bit of unwillingness to see a bit of potential lost to mechanics that lead you to this statement?

Dude, even in the classic raidboss boonball structure, virtuoso is regarded as one of the best pure DPS builds in part because it can keep firing away at range with minimal loss of output, at least until and unless the boons start dropping off if it's left the boonball. And other situations like open world (particularly bounties with anti-melee effects like phasing), competitive modes, specific strikes that punish attempting to remain in melee range all the time like OLC, and so on create circumstances where you really want a ranged capability. One of the biggest problems I have with playing elementalist nowadays is that in zones of open world where going full melee isn't practical (and there are quite a few), full ranged is pretty much the only viable option, and that immediately hits with two problems: first, every elite specialisation except Weaver is pushing you into melee, and second, scepter is the only ranged weapon that really works with that and using scepter all the time gets boring.

Elementalist's history in GW1 and with comparable classes in the general fantasy genre is as a primary ranged class. Elementalist is still advertised as a primary ranged class ingame and on the new player facing part of the website (the skill videos are way out of date now, of course, but with the exception of Churning Earth they still portray elementalist as a profession that's doing its damage from a distance). I think it's reasonable for people to expect for that to be a supported option. Instead, we have three elite specialisations that were all designed for melee, and two of which have mechanics that force you to go into melee, or at least close enough that you're not going to be able to avoid melee if the enemy wants to close, in order to get the full benefit from them. Sure, options to go full melee when called for are good to have, but the full ranged option should not feel like an afterthought.

In that context, I think it is fair to be disappointed that a weapon that has been advertised as catering to that... is set up in such a manner that it doesn't play nicely with the one elite specialisation that is suitable for that, and where it feels like the reason for that is that the developers are... let's be polite and say being frugal with development resources.

[Santo.2419]

Regardless of dual skills, the main problem for weaver is going to be that you're locked into an attunement to set off your skill 5 on the flip. How in the hell are you supposed to play a weaver with that problem. 

Just making the etchings build up over time (and release) without the need of skill use to empower makes the spear a heap more flexible and you wouldn't need to increase the duration. This might not be the solution, but there has to be one other than being locked into an attunement.

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Santo.2419 said:

Regardless of dual skills, the main problem for weaver is going to be that you're locked into an attunement to set off your skill 5 on the flip. How in the hell are you supposed to play a weaver with that problem. 

Just making the etchings build up over time (and release) without the need of skill use to empower makes the spear a heap more flexible and you wouldn't need to increase the duration. This might not be the solution, but there has to be one other than being locked into an attunement.

I think the intended answer is to etch, build, release, attune, dual skill, double attune, repeat. If you do that, you're probably not extending the time between attunement swaps by too much.

It is pretty much an exercise of how to play Weaver without actually playing Weaver, though.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

They just need to make it function like a glyph, whichever one you etch sticks to the bar while you swap attunements. You etch fire, you can swap to whatever attunement while it's etched and charge it up, then fire it off no matter what attunement you're in and you get the volcano.

you can't let it build up over time and release on it's own because how are you going to aim it. The glyph solution would also ease up on the rotation so you aren't stuck using skills just to feed the etch and wasting cooldowns, you can use whatever skill on whatever attunement you want to use that would be most useful for the situation.

[Twilightmage.8309]

weaver with no cool dual skills is sadge.

[Jski.6180]

22 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think the intended answer is to etch, build, release, attune, dual skill, double attune, repeat. If you do that, you're probably not extending the time between attunement swaps by too much.

It is pretty much an exercise of how to play Weaver without actually playing Weaver, though.

The duel skill seem to have low cast time as well so they can some what interact with etch BUT your always going to have an issue with etch as they are on your 5 skill something that is a bit harder for weaver to control then the other eles. (I still think weaver should be able to chose what 1/2 atument swap it gets to go so you can go with the front back as we have now or back front to make etching a LOT better for weaver.)

It will work well with FA builds for sure though how is the air etch? Any thing that lets you get back into your 5th skill for the start etch and lets you atument swap for the dule skill will be key for weaver.

We may end up finding that core ele can use spear better then weaver for raw dmg though cata may do it better as well. I do not seem tempest getting that much from spear for dmg.