Stop Treating WvW like a GvG environment

[Charall.4710]

5 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

Anet has decided and you can't do anything about it.

And this is part of the problem, Anet needs to look at the overall feel and go "WOAH hold on a second! We gotta address this!" and actually talk to us about how we feel. Cause if they f-over the community and ignore us for long enough its gonna end badly.

Edit: I wonder if this can make it past 12 pages which would make it go way past the feedback for the restructuring beta lmao.

Edited September 6 by Charall.4710

[Chaba.5410]

19 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

how in a team game, eliminating the concept of teams is a good solution.

To have such a discussion, you'll have to go through the whole process of convincing another why these teams do not fit the concept of teams.  Because they certainly look like teams, act like teams, and function like teams.

Edited September 6 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

3 hours ago, OtherBarry.4175 said:

Does K+D account for the same players stats? Is it just the same squads killing the same squads? My t1 shard doesn't seem to have many new faces and changing maps with a squad of 30 puts an instant que up for a map. Even when the map has "heavily outnumbered" buff up. Really seems like its just the same small amount of people killing the same small amount of people.

It is just same players killing each other, which is fine.

If one team is running around with a larger squad and is just crushing the other two servers, total K+D is going to be lower in that skirmish than in skirmishes where the other two servers have people.  There's less people online to gain kills/PPK off of.  The same happens when there's just a small amount of people killing the same small amount of people.

This turns it into a proxy stat for estimating population.  When total K+D is high, we can say there's more players overall having more engagements to PvP with each other.
 

Edited September 6 by Chaba.5410

[Mabi black.1824]

26 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

To have such a discussion, you'll have to go through the whole process of convincing another why these teams do not fit the concept of teams.  Because they certainly look like teams, act like teams, and function like teams.

I personally do not perceive it in the slightest as ''my'' team. It is a team, built randomly and continuously every few weeks, where no one cares what result this team gets, and where I do not see a common and shared action, much less a ''common'' team goal. while I see that each small group looks only at itself. But this is just my very personal perception of what WVW has become. 

[Zyreva.1078]

8 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

I personally do not perceive it in the slightest as ''my'' team. It is a team, built randomly and continuously every few weeks, where no one cares what result this team gets, and where I do not see a common and shared action, much less a ''common'' team goal. while I see that each small group looks only at itself. But this is just my very personal perception of what WVW has become. 

And it was exactly the same before WR. The vast majority of players did not care about match results and did not share a common goal.

[Mabi black.1824]

4 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

And it was exactly the same before WR. The vast majority of players did not care about match results and did not share a common goal.

is exactly a portion of what I have been writing for a long time here. even if for some of us it was already a meaningless mode. for others of us, however, it had a meaning. That's why I say that this update actually cuts out a portion of players. That's why I don't like it, that's why I've often wondered, even on this forum, if this idea was really the only one to follow. Also because I don't have the feeling that he has changed anything in terms of ''balanced'' teams.

[Mabi black.1824]

12 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

And it was exactly the same before WR. The vast majority of players did not care about match results and did not share a common goal.

before, at least, it was a free choice. Don't give a kitty about game design? Come up with a way to play it and make sense of how you play it. Now we are forcing/forcing it on everyone as it is the same development of Anet that makes the team/server useless and therefore you can no longer choose to play as the game design provides.

[Cyninja.2954]

Here are the number for this week on EU (from 15 minutes ago):

T1 104923K 108333D   K/D  1/1.24/0.67
T2 101411K 104756D    K/D  1.15/0.97/0.78
T3 129183K 132605D    K/D 1.28/1.16/0.58
T4 115876K 119634D    K/D 1.33/0.88/0.8
T5 90089K 92838D        K/D 1.16/1.04/0.7

Total: 544,482K  558,166D
K/D average: 14.74/15: 0.9826
K/D median: 1  (0.58, 0.67, 0.7, 0.78, 0.8, 0.88, 0.97, 1, 1.04, 1.15, 1.16, 1.16, 1.24, 1.28, 1.33)

Small reminder since these numbers are significantly up from last week. We did have a partial anniversary buff running from Friday reset until Tuesday (I am not online atm to double check if the buff has actually expired, I am relying on the wiki atm. If I am incorrect please correct me) as well as a WvW unique armor set. Both will boost participation and activity.

Overall with some exceptions the matches have been pretty even (this is not as true for NA, K/D was far more spread there this week, I just didn't feel like doing all the numbers for there too).

I feel as though there is some improvements to be made to the algorithm (anything below a K/D of 0.8 is usually VERY un-fun and seems to be the extreme scenario of very few commanders in on the shard I believe), more importantly I still think we need better tools overall for players to manage guilds and shards (I have mentioned this in the past).

Edited September 6 by Cyninja.2954

[Zyreva.1078]

18 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

before, at least, it was a free choice. Don't give a kitty about game design? Come up with a way to play it and make sense of how you play it. Now we are forcing/forcing it on everyone as it is the same development of Anet that makes the team/server useless and therefore you can no longer choose to play as the game design provides.

You aren't forced to "not care". You can still try to win matches if that's what you want to do. Nothing has changed about that. The only thing preventing you from caring now is your own perception of how meaningful or meaningless those match result are when in reality absolutely nothing has changed in this regard. They were always meaningless.

[Charall.4710]

11 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

You aren't forced to "not care". You can still try to win matches if that's what you want to do.

First off that profile picture is still making me chuckle, second.. I actually believe to revitalize WvW they need to bring back the competitive nature to it.

[One more for the road.8950]

7 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I feel as though there is some improvements to be made to the algorithm (anything below a K/D of 0.8 is usually VERY un-fun and seems to be the extreme scenario of very few commanders in on the shard I believe), more importantly I still think we need better tools overall for players to manage guilds and shards (I have mentioned this in the past).

This can also happen when you have commanders or guilds that only PPT and end up with an entire squad that doesn't even try or can't fight back, or unsuccessfully tries to flee when seeing enemies even if they are half their own numbers. Not a new thing, and when it goes on for hours, it can tank the k/d significantly. Considering the boost and new armor this might have happened, but also that it's first week after reshuffle. Tiers are all whack again, nobody went up or down yet.

[Isopod.4156]

I like running with my guild, we hang Out and chat except fights where the com is driving, we aren't the greatest but it's fun. I dont really play wvw outside it cause it's just not very fun for me to endlessly capture camps. I do think one team is seemingly always destined to get the short end of the stick due to how the mode works.

[Leaa.2943]

On 9/4/2024 at 11:58 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

What I have not been very critical of is World Restructuring, at least not in the way others whine about it (I have mentioned the issues I see with it which need addressing).

Oh so you are critical but when others write about it we are whining. Ok....

 

I been writing about this topic over the years, I been saying this things here and on reddit over and over and over and over. I been called out a whiner many times and also told that i need to give Arena Net time which i nearly always do, but in the end i am not going to give them a full 5 years before they react and give us something that worls. It s not whining reagardless if it is you or me or anyone else talking about it. It is us expressing feeling or info or anything else about a game mode most of us here have played for years and years and years and years. 

On another note now when i am writing IF Arena Net talked to us about the world restructions in some good manner, like hearing our concern about how it feels to play WvW right now. How excluded many players feels and how devatasting this is. And then talk about how they see it and what their plans are to make it work. Reverse or otherwise? 

And then there is the ballance which with the spears just brought it to another level of obnoxious gameplay. And yet again noone talk to us. None is saying yeah we can see that this are not good numbers, we going to have to tweak it a bit, or if not that at least explain why they feel it is or is not good to have the whole wvw running around with 500 pulls a sec, one shotbuilds that is dumb as hell and then again as usual boons. Why do Arena Net feel that this is something that WvW need. Why are they not changing. Why can they not explain this to us, there must be some thoughts, somthing....

Anyway i don't seem to be able to write a post without pooring my frustration out, but i need to hear the thoughts it can not possibly just be meh just let it be and lets focus on the new PvP map. I mean new pvp map might be great, but could we fix WvW too?

[Leaa.2943]

4 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I feel as though there is some improvements to be made to the algorithm (anything below a K/D of 0.8 is usually VERY un-fun and seems to be the extreme scenario of very few commanders in on the shard I believe), more importantly I still think we need better tools overall for players to manage guilds and shards (I have mentioned this in the past).

https://gw2mists.com/matches/eu What planet are you playing on? 

[Cyninja.2954]

6 minutes ago, Leaa.2943 said:

https://gw2mists.com/matches/eu What planet are you playing on? 

The one where I know when the weekly reset is.

It's almost as though I made a tally for the last match-up close to its end. Funny how that works huh?

Edited September 6 by Cyninja.2954

[Leaa.2943]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The one where I know when the weekly reset is.

It's almost as though I made a tally for the last match-up close to its end. Funny how that works huh?

What does it matter if this is reset numbers? It is 1 server having a blast during reset and 2 that do not in each matchup. Which means they log off yet again due to uneven matches and feel they skip this week too. That is good for WvW?

[Cyninja.2954]

1 minute ago, Leaa.2943 said:

What does it matter if this is reset numbers? It is 1 server having a blast during reset and 2 that do not in each matchup. Which means they log off yet again due to uneven matches and feel they skip this week too. That is good for WvW?

That's not what those numbers showed.

Also I hope you are NOT sincerely calling reset evening/night the best example of a weekly match-up.

Most groups don't even care about ppt on reset.

Edited September 6 by Cyninja.2954

[Leaa.2943]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

That's not what those numbers showed.

Also I hope you are NOT sincerely calling reset evening/night the best example of a weekly match-up.

Most groups don't even care about ppt on reset.

You make zero sense right now. Where is PPT comming in? My point was the K/D. The whole reason to why Alliances came up was to get more even matches, then they removed that and made world restruction which are not even matches and clearly Arena Net have no possibillity to make even matchups except for maybe the first one after reshuffle. After that it is still 1 up/1 down.

[Cyninja.2954]

14 minutes ago, Leaa.2943 said:

You make zero sense right now. Where is PPT comming in? My point was the K/D. The whole reason to why Alliances came up was to get more even matches, then they removed that and made world restruction which are not even matches and clearly Arena Net have no possibillity to make even matchups except for maybe the first one after reshuffle. After that it is still 1 up/1 down.

I am saying looking at a week long match-up score makes far more sense than a distorted reset which has some very own rules to it.

PPT is something which decides significantly how a server/shard will perform. So much so that shards/servers with weak K/D ratios can move up (and in some cases some servers/shards don't care and focus on fighting even while losing PPT. Reset night traditionally puts PPT on the low-burn and has a lot of players join for fights, which distorts the statistic tremendously. That's why I brought it up.

I gave the total numbers of LAST WEEKS match-up because those numbers are the best sign for ACTIVITY we have to compare in-between weeks. I also gave the K/D ratios, which evened out significantly towards the end of the week.

Alliances was always PART of the world restructuring design (and it blows my mind how some players to this day to not understand this). World Restructuring, aka the reinvention of servers into shards, aka creating shards around alliances, guilds and solo players WAS always the primary goal (and NOOOOOOO, an alliance was NEVER intended to be it's own shard. It was always meant to be paired with other alliances, guilds and individual players).

The fact that they removed the concept of guilds banding together via offering an additional guild slots which can full-fill this purpose is unfortunate but was NEVER the primary goal. That additional guild slot functions in almost the same way as creating an alliance between different guilds and it's subject to the same rules alliances would have been subject to (a player cap of 500).

Edited September 6 by Cyninja.2954

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

Overall we do want to see MORE total kills AND deaths to gauge some actual close competition. Some matches are doing better than others as always but we want to see it across all tiers if possible, the big problem most everybody has is some tiers are too skewed for one team or two teams and the third is just trying to pick up scraps. Anet actually did WvW a favor with this expansion having the Woad armor only be available through pvp and wvw, not to mention the reward track also being an easier way to unlock some of the new relics compared to how quickly you can unlock them in pve. This expansion has been great for that and helps keep the mode relevant unlike what happened with heart of thorns where everything had to be acquired through pve. Hopefully things will keep looking up but there definitely are matches in primetime that feel like you're playing hide and seek instead of wvw, or duck duck goose going around a map or multiple maps finding enemies.

[Charall.4710]

10 hours ago, Isopod.4156 said:

I like running with my guild, we hang Out and chat except fights where the com is driving, we aren't the greatest but it's fun.

I do too, but we were able to do that in normal WvW so I don't see why they had to make alliances.

[Charall.4710]

Honestly just bring seasons back, ditch alliances, and provide buffs to servers with lower populations so they can compete against the other servers in their bracket. Make it so you have a one time transfer available per season and from then on it locks you to your selection for that season.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Charall.4710 said:

Honestly just bring seasons back, ditch alliances, and provide buffs to servers with lower populations so they can compete against the other servers in their bracket. Make it so you have a one time transfer available per season and from then on it locks you to your selection for that season.

What’s the point with competetive seasons if you’re giving specific worlds advantages so they won’t loose?

[Charall.4710]

32 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

What’s the point with competetive seasons if you’re giving specific worlds advantages so they won’t loose?

You dont give them world advantages so that they don't lose, you give them a scaling stat bonus to help lower population servers fight.

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

12 minutes ago, Charall.4710 said:

You dont give them world advantages so that they don't lose, you give them a scaling stat bonus to help lower population servers fight.

Thats the same argument as giving Outnumbered Map Instances buffs, and this is STILL prone to Alt matchmaking manipulations.
A big guild cud just randomly decide they wanted THIS outnumbered world to play on, stomp everybody, then hop to another Outnumbered Server next day/week.
And before you claim about "checking every 2 hrs", look at WR and tell me how much you trust them to implement new systems.