JW Currencies

[AliamRationem.5172]

Just now, Ashen.2907 said:

Introducing the long term goal while people are still in the honeymoon phase with the content is counterproductive for ANet. People are going to play the content initially regardless of long term goals. Adding such as engagement with the content begins to wane means a longer total engagement window. Sounds cynical, but it is more effective to drip feed goals rather than front load them.

I hope you're right.  I guess we'll see what they do.

[Ashen.2907]

Just now, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I hope you're right.  I guess we'll see what they do.

I hope so too. Not because I want to be right but because I too fear a repeat of the hatched chili issue.

[Mithral.8516]

The unusual coins, for now, will only be useful in Janthir. However, as you were told via your mail when this expac released, unusual coins have a new system now, to keep them relevant and maintain value. When the next expac comes, your current unusual coins will become ancient coins. Then they'll be useful across JW, SotO, and EoD. Currently, the unusual coins from SotO and EoD have already become ancient coins.

 Also, as others have said, legendaries and other items coming in the future will likely need these currencies.

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 minutes ago, Mithral.8516 said:

The unusual coins, for now, will only be useful in Janthir. However, as you were told via your mail when this expac released, unusual coins have a new system now, to keep them relevant and maintain value. When the next expac comes, your current unusual coins will become ancient coins. Then they'll be useful across JW, SotO, and EoD. Currently, the unusual coins from SotO and EoD have already become ancient coins.

 Also, as others have said, legendaries and other items coming in the future will likely need these currencies.

But they never added anything beyond the initial recipe unlocks to consume ancient coins, so you purchase the available recipes and then you continue to accumulate this currency with no outlet for them.  Compare to something like LS4 currencies.  Once you've purchased everything of use you can still convert them to volatile magic and convert that into useful materials.

[Ashen.2907]

31 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

But they never added anything beyond the initial recipe unlocks to consume ancient coins, so you purchase the available recipes and then you continue to accumulate this currency with no outlet for them.  Compare to something like LS4 currencies.  Once you've purchased everything of use you can still convert them to volatile magic and convert that into useful materials.

This.

Converting a newer currency into an older one that has limited utility makes the matter worse not better.

[Zok.4956]

1 hour ago, Mithral.8516 said:

Currently, the unusual coins from SotO and EoD have already become ancient coins.

I haven't checked, so it's a real question: Were the vendor costs and receipes from SotO and EoD, that required unusual coins back then, also changed to require ancient coins?

Edited September 4 by Zok.4956

[Gop.8713]

Yes . . .

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

This.

Converting a newer currency into an older one that has limited utility makes the matter worse not better.

How does it make it worse? Latest expansions resetting the unusual coin counter makes sure you're playing through the new content instead of getting into the map, buying out everything the merchant has while not really interacting with the new content and instantly leaving.
Once you don't need those coins for anything, do you still go out of your way to keep opening the sources of those coins specifically FOR those coins? Or maybe you're opening those for the rest of the loot or even stop interacting with the chests altogether when you think the loot is not worth it? I don't think you're going out of your way to farm it once you have everything you needed from it and you don't really need to manage it in any way since it just sits in the wallet instead of taking up any space. So what exactly is so bad about that?

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

On 9/3/2024 at 4:10 AM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I'm glad you guys enjoy puttering around on maps that offer negligible rewards.  That's great.  But you almost seem to be suggesting anyone who doesn't see it your way is just playing the game wrong.  Yet as far as I can tell, what I'm suggesting wouldn't change much by your way of thinking.  So what's the problem?

If I want a daily checklist I go back to WoW, GTAO or Destiny or work overtime. God forbid people go to a map to HAVE FUN and not to grind something, it is totally understandable that some people need to do certain tasks in game each day on a regular basis by XX:XX, however, that isn't how everyone wants to play.

[AliamRationem.5172]

5 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

If I want a daily checklist I go back to WoW, GTAO or Destiny or work overtime. God forbid people go to a map to HAVE FUN and not to grind something, it is totally understandable that some people need to do certain tasks in game each day on a regular basis by XX:XX, however, that isn't how everyone wants to play.

So when you're out and about on a season 4 map just having fun, the fact that you are able to convert the currencies you get from farming nodes and killing mobs flips a switch in your brain that makes you feel like you need to do this every day such that you'd rather the currency just have nothing you can spend it on?  I have to say that doesn't make the slightest bit of sense to me.

[Sobx.1758]

Convert them to ancient coins and then dump them for insignias or runestones.

Edited September 4 by Sobx.1758

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

3 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

So when you're out and about on a season 4 map just having fun, the fact that you are able to convert the currencies you get from farming nodes and killing mobs flips a switch in your brain that makes you feel like you need to do this every day such that you'd rather the currency just have nothing you can spend it on?  I have to say that doesn't make the slightest bit of sense to me.

As I said, I play for fun, not to appease Excel sheets used as checklist for daily farming. There are things I do each day, like dailies for example, but I'm not going to throw a temper tantrum that I can't repeatedly do the same thing over and over. I find it boring personally.

You seem to be suggesting that the way I'm playing the game is wrong, because I don't see it your way.

[AliamRationem.5172]

22 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

As I said, I play for fun, not to appease Excel sheets used as checklist for daily farming. There are things I do each day, like dailies for example, but I'm not going to throw a temper tantrum that I can't repeatedly do the same thing over and over. I find it boring personally.

You seem to be suggesting that the way I'm playing the game is wrong, because I don't see it your way.

I was simply pointing out that currency sinks like volatile magic conversion that provide long term value to currencies that would otherwise become worthless are in no way similar to a daily activity that drives FOMO.

To my way of thinking, whether currencies have value or not shouldn't impact a person who is playing purely "for fun".  Hence my confusion at your reaction to this idea.

[Mistwraithe.3106]

In SOTO they added conversions for a number of old currencies. I imagine they will again when they think it is necessary.

[Logos.5603]

This whole game is a huge grind carefully camouflaged to look like you aren't really grinding. The so-called gameplay loop is a grind for rewards (this is pretty much all mid to end game). Rinse, and repeat, again, and again, and again. Complete the same set of quests for the 100th time, harvest the 1-millionth resource, capture the 1000th keep, kill the 1000 player or boss for some currency that you can trade for what is ultimately a bit of vertically in the power curve, some new aesthetic, or mechanic to help you do the grind slightly faster. The story is really just window dressing, a necessary component to paint over on an old loop (basically to keep you hooked). If this is still attractive to you, I can see why having nothing to spend the currency on can be quite annoying. I mean, you've gone through the loop, but you can't really collect on the rewards because there aren't any. And telling these folk that it might come doesn't really help.

IMO, the grind is not really meant to be fun, but addictive. The purpose of a game is to keep you playing it, and being fun is not necessary for this. It can help, but it might be easier to keep players hooked with more rudimentary strategies akin to that used in lottery machines and casinos (lots of really nasty psychological tricks to manipulate you into playing). Honestly, and I know this is going to be hugely controversial, but I don't believe that most players rly have fun interacting with most of this game's so-called "gameplay loop." Folks say that they do, but they really don't. It is mostly mindless repetition, stress and annoyance, and then the sweet enjoyment of crossing a goal on the excel sheet, or getting a reward. Companies like this one have tricked us into thinking that that feeling is "fun." That's not to say we can't have fun in the game, but that's not really looking like the game's intention as of late. It doesn't really facilitate that, and I don't think they know how. 

Edited September 6 by Logos.5603

[Mistwraithe.3106]

Heh. We meet again Logos of the "what is play" question.

There are a lot of game companies doing the extreme version of what you are saying. It is core to the Freemium model and it works on a surprising number of people. More importantly (and unfortunately) it works very well on a smaller number of people who will then spent a lot of money on the game, also known as whales.

GW2 has a cash shop and is free to play (to an extent - many players will buy an expansion I expect). So Anet are on this spectrum somewhere.

Where you and I part company is the extent to which we think Anet are doing this. IMO Anet are quite low on the exploitation scale. There is extremely little pay to win, in that you can get to full exotic equipment in a few weeks just with WV money and mostly full ascended probably within a WV season if you learn crafting, definitely two if you don't want to craft. There is fairly low pay to progress too, you could categorise some of the gem store quality of life items as being this given they reduce time spend doing things like managing inventory etc, but it's pretty mild and completely different from Freemium games which will usually ramp up the time sink to the point that the only rational option for an addicted player is to spend money to advance (obviously the true rational option on these Freemium games is to not play).

I do agree with you tho that GW2 has addictive elements which are designed to keep people playing. All MMOs have more of this than single player games because they want people to keep playing long term. And this is on that spectrum I was talking about (with Freemium games at the other end) so people do need to be aware of it. I certainly remind myself quite regularly as I am mildly addicted to GW2 right now in that I am keen to play it in my spare time. But I've also in the past been mildly addicted to EU4 and HoI campaigns, Civ 5 games, various RTS games, even briefly League of Legends. When I finish the story and feel like I've achieved what I wanted to achieve in terms of getting good enough at Fractals/Strikes/etc I'll put it aside for a while.

You should too.

[AliamRationem.5172]

7 hours ago, Logos.5603 said:

This whole game is a huge grind carefully camouflaged to look like you aren't really grinding. The so-called gameplay loop is a grind for rewards (this is pretty much all mid to end game). Rinse, and repeat, again, and again, and again. Complete the same set of quests for the 100th time, harvest the 1-millionth resource, capture the 1000th keep, kill the 1000 player or boss for some currency that you can trade for what is ultimately a bit of vertically in the power curve, some new aesthetic, or mechanic to help you do the grind slightly faster. The story is really just window dressing, a necessary component to paint over on an old loop (basically to keep you hooked). If this is still attractive to you, I can see why having nothing to spend the currency on can be quite annoying. I mean, you've gone through the loop, but you can't really collect on the rewards because there aren't any. And telling these folk that it might come doesn't really help.

IMO, the grind is not really meant to be fun, but addictive. The purpose of a game is to keep you playing it, and being fun is not necessary for this. It can help, but it might be easier to keep players hooked with more rudimentary strategies akin to that used in lottery machines and casinos (lots of really nasty psychological tricks to manipulate you into playing). Honestly, and I know this is going to be hugely controversial, but I don't believe that most players rly have fun interacting with most of this game's so-called "gameplay loop." Folks say that they do, but they really don't. It is mostly mindless repetition, stress and annoyance, and then the sweet enjoyment of crossing a goal on the excel sheet, or getting a reward. Companies like this one have tricked us into thinking that that feeling is "fun." That's not to say we can't have fun in the game, but that's not really looking like the game's intention as of late. It doesn't really facilitate that, and I don't think they know how. 

Any game that intends to keep players occupied on the scale of years is going to involve repetition, and while that word is not generally one we'd list under the category of "fun", they are not mutually exclusive terms.  For example, I've been playing Overwatch for years.  They introduce new heroes and skins, even a new game mode now and then.  But it's basically the same thing in repetition.  Does that mean it's not possible for such a game to be fun and I'm only fooling myself into believing that it is?

I do agree that rewards, achievements, collections, etc. are all essentially a psychological trick of game design.  They give players an excuse to play the game when perhaps otherwise they wouldn't.  But does that necessarily mean the gameplay itself isn't enjoyable?  I wouldn't go that far.  For instance, I enjoy raiding and CM fractals with my guildmates.  I've also felt motivated to do achievements, collections, etc. that require those things.  But even though there's nothing I really need or want from these activities anymore, I still get together with my guild and I'd say I have fun with it.

Maybe that's more that we're performing that activity together and joking around in discord than the game itself, but I notice we choose those tasks over other tasks we could do together.  Why are we playing Guild Wars 2 specifically and not Hello Kitty Island Adventure if it's only the excuse to get together and play something that matters?  It must be that we find something worthwhile about that particular aspect of gameplay that causes us to choose it over other tasks.  Call me crazy or deluded, but I think we might enjoy it?

 

[Tula.6021]

On 9/2/2024 at 8:29 PM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

But if there's no boss event with rewards that translate to gold on the regular and no farmable map currency with an appropriate outlet, what is keeping players coming back once the achievements and story are done?

The mursaat runes for me atm.

The the honey jp, the bee jp and some digging with my warclaw. It returns a sellable item.

[AliamRationem.5172]

18 minutes ago, Tula.6021 said:

The mursaat runes for me atm.

The the honey jp, the bee jp and some digging with my warclaw. It returns a sellable item.

Assuming those items retain value long term.  But that's not generally how it goes.

[Tula.6021]

33 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Assuming those items retain value long term.  But that's not generally how it goes.

Well I do sell them now.

Maybe when the legendary spear info gets released (I assume you'll need a ton of those mursaat token then) I may hoard them and not sell them anymore, but then the reason to come back to the maps is still there. But since it is all solostuff, it won't contribute much to the map activities (surely I do some events here and there too if they pop up and are convenient)

[Sobx.1758]

12 hours ago, Logos.5603 said:

This whole game is a huge grind carefully camouflaged to look like you aren't really grinding. The so-called gameplay loop is a grind for rewards (this is pretty much all mid to end game). Rinse, and repeat, again, and again, and again.

Not really. If anything, there's hardly any real grind (maybe unless you're trying to rush everything that just comes out, at which point... what isn't a grind?), let alone anything that's in any way obligatory. In case of this expansion, we know the next "content drop" comes in 3 months. But there we had players complaining that they didn't unlock everything during the first week. At some point it starts looking like a complaint about "having" to play the game at all.

12 hours ago, Logos.5603 said:

Complete the same set of quests for the 100th time, harvest the 1-millionth resource, capture the 1000th keep, kill the 1000 player or boss for some currency that you can trade for what is ultimately a bit of vertically in the power curve, some new aesthetic, or mechanic to help you do the grind slightly faster. The story is really just window dressing, a necessary component to paint over on an old loop (basically to keep you hooked). If this is still attractive to you, I can see why having nothing to spend the currency on can be quite annoying. I mean, you've gone through the loop, but you can't really collect on the rewards because there aren't any. And telling these folk that it might come doesn't really help.

Most of those repeatables give you just ap, rewards that can be acquired through other means or just skins. All of which are easy to skip if it's about "something you don't want to do". Don't want to repeat same "quest" (acheivement?) 100th time? Cool, don't. Don't want to capture 1000th keep? No problem, don't do it and you won't get some ap and a title or w/e it was rewarding you with. It only turns into "grind" if you decide rushing for rewards (even in the form of ap) is more important than anything else. I could understand that complaint about "grind" if any of it was needed for gear to keep up with other players -mostly in competitive modes- or even to be able to play through the content (which was the case with other mmos incorporating gear grind and level cap increase). But this is not what it is in this game at all.

Edited September 6 by Sobx.1758

[Logos.5603]

11 hours ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

Heh. We meet again Logos of the "what is play" question.

There are a lot of game companies doing the extreme version of what you are saying. It is core to the Freemium model and it works on a surprising number of people. More importantly (and unfortunately) it works very well on a smaller number of people who will then spent a lot of money on the game, also known as whales.

GW2 has a cash shop and is free to play (to an extent - many players will buy an expansion I expect). So Anet are on this spectrum somewhere.

Where you and I part company is the extent to which we think Anet are doing this. IMO Anet are quite low on the exploitation scale. There is extremely little pay to win, in that you can get to full exotic equipment in a few weeks just with WV money and mostly full ascended probably within a WV season if you learn crafting, definitely two if you don't want to craft. There is fairly low pay to progress too, you could categorise some of the gem store quality of life items as being this given they reduce time spend doing things like managing inventory etc, but it's pretty mild and completely different from Freemium games which will usually ramp up the time sink to the point that the only rational option for an addicted player is to spend money to advance (obviously the true rational option on these Freemium games is to not play).

I do agree with you tho that GW2 has addictive elements which are designed to keep people playing. All MMOs have more of this than single player games because they want people to keep playing long term. And this is on that spectrum I was talking about (with Freemium games at the other end) so people do need to be aware of it. I certainly remind myself quite regularly as I am mildly addicted to GW2 right now in that I am keen to play it in my spare time. But I've also in the past been mildly addicted to EU4 and HoI campaigns, Civ 5 games, various RTS games, even briefly League of Legends. When I finish the story and feel like I've achieved what I wanted to achieve in terms of getting good enough at Fractals/Strikes/etc I'll put it aside for a while.

You should too.

I guess the concern is a distant cousin of the "what is play?" question.

I don't think pay-to-win is a good measure of what I'm discussing.  I think that the so-called gameplay loop in GW2 relies primarily on psychological exploitation, and not really on any sort of creative activities that allow a different and healthier kind of engagement with the game (although the homestead could've been that if it wasn't also made part of the grinding that is GW2). I guess, my concern is really about the grinding which I take to be GW2 primary mid to late game "gameplay" and the psychological exploitation of grinding.

Like you, I'm aware of my engagement with this game. I don't really play it to have fun. Frankly it is hard to have fun in GW2. The grinding gets in the way of fun. I thought maybe the housing system might alleviate this, but you have to pay the grind-tax before you can engage with the fun of decorating.

I play because my real life demands a lot of focus and meticulous thinking, and I can mostly shut my brain off when I play this game (so it relaxing, though not fun). And, like anyone, I can also fall victim to the psychological tricks they use to keep you hooked. If I want fun I play D&D, or something whose goal is engaging in a communal activity with the goal of having fun with others (as opposed of grinding "content" with others for some tokens). Again, ppl can have fun in GW2, I'm not disputing that. It is just that the game isn't really interested in fun, but keeping you hooked. That's why a lot of the game is the way it is.

To connect back to the topic, GW2 is having some real difficulties trying to do both--provide avenues for fun, and grindy content--partly because they don't know how (maybe there isn't a way). That's why you get content like what the OP describes: basically a confused "gameplay" that fails at satisfying the griding players, and those that are looking for fun.

[Logos.5603]

35 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Not really. If anything, there's hardly any real grind (unless you're trying to rush everything that just comes out, at which point... what isn't a grind?), let alone anything that's in any way obligatory.

Most of those repeatables give you just ap, rewards that can be acquired in other means or just skins. All of which are easy to skip if it's about "something you don't want to do". Don't want to repeat same "quest" (acheivement?) 100th time? Cool, don't. Don't want to capture 1000th keep? No problem, don't do it and you won't get some ap and a title or w/e it was rewarding you with. It only turns into "grind" if you decide rushing for rewards (even in the form of ap) is more important than anything else. I could understand that complaint about "grind" if any of it was needed for gear to keep up with other players -mostly in competitive modes- or even to be able to play through the content (which was the case with other mmos incorporating gear grind and level cap increase). But this is not what it is in this game at all.

But by this measure nothing can be grinding since you don't have to do it. I mean you don't have to engage in any grinding content at all in any game because you don't have to play any game. But that's not how grinding is characterized.

You counterargument amounts to this:

1) X requires griding. ("Most of those [repeatables] give you just ap, rewards that can be acquired in other means or just skins." (I would clarify here that those other means require lots of repetition/grinding as well.))

2) If you don't want to grind, then stop wanting X. (All of which are easy to skip if it's about "something you don't want to do.")

3) Therefore, there isn't any grinding. ("If anything, there's hardly any real grind.")

But this isn't a good argument. It tacitly presupposes that there is grinding, it is just that you can "skip it" if you don't want the reward. But that's what grinding is. It is a kind of activity that one needs to do (is obligatory) if one want the reward. The activity doesn't become grinding simply because I want the reward. It also doesn't stop being grinding if I don't do it back-to-back over in a short period of time (some grinding is done over years. For example, legendary items). Rather, I have to engage in griding because I want the reward, and that's the problem. Most of GW2 is designed this way. Most rewards require (obligate) engaging in some form of grinding.

Edited September 6 by Logos.5603

[DeanBB.4268]

49 minutes ago, Logos.5603 said:

Most of GW2  computer games is designed this way

Fixed that for you. Aren't Tetris, Solitaire and Mine Sweeper grindy as heck, also?

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

If there's anything this thread shows it's not the game doing one thing or the other, it's the people who play it. GW2 isn't designed to grind or not to grind. It isn't designed to collect rewards vs. not collecting rewards. It's become apparent you can play the game one way or the other and it's not the game that decides this for us, it's us who decide it for ourselves. It gives us options but it's the players who decide to take those options or leave it and focus on other things. Any individual admission of having fun or not playing GW2 is purely subjective and says nothing about the game itself. Only when those numbers pile up  and you can set them against each other can you use that as an argument for or against the game itself. 

Useless currencies don't bother me at all. As long as they're true currencies (i.e. they go in the wallet) and not items you exchange for other items (hatched chili) it affects nothing as far as I'm concerned. It would be nice to have something to keep spending Ursus Obliges on, like trophy/material crates as in the case of volatile magic, but if there won't be such a thing it will just be invisibly piling up in my wallet, which is limitless, meaning it is inconsequential to me playing the game.

There are 3 games modes, so many maps, metas, instances. If a useless currency becomes such an insurmountable problem that it sucks the fun out of the game, that none of the other things the game offers are any fun anymore, it might be time to take a break, at the least. I'm not saying the complaint is unreasonable. I'm just saying that the response seems a bit disproportionate.