Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 Just now, Obtena.7952 said: You must be fishing for fools to desperately make some point here because only a fool would argue with you about such a nonsensical scenario. How about .. just make your point or don't because it's clearly that not that good. The fact is that nothing was removed, so the complaint and the 'theoretical' request of the OP is nonsense. Not sure why you try to continue to support that ruse with arguments with people ... it's a non-winning position. the point is i totally agree with you, they should definitely just reduce all of our gold to 1. That way the content WAS NOT removed. its still there! you can use your 1 gold as you see fit! its just a simple balancing as you all suggested which is what mmo's do and they have a history of doing this, so as a veteran player I'm ready for it, and I totally agree with it! Im sure anet loves that suggestion too, according to the forums there is nothing stopping them from doing this, so they should do it on a monthly.... NO weekly schedule, a weekly "balancing" of our gold. That way we can whip out our credit cards once a week and re-stock or play the game for a week 24/7 and then blow it all before the "balancing" occurs. 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: the point is i totally agree with you, they should definitely just reduce all of our gold to 1. What are you talking about? That makes no sense. I never claimed one way or the other Anet should reduce our gold to 1. Again, nonsensical hypothetical scenarios do NOT make whatever point you are trying to make. The thread isn't about Anet reducing gold to 1 so ... what are you rambling on about? It's simple: Anet making balancing changes is not removing content. Edited September 14 by Obtena.7952 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenKeriti.5176 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: What are you talking about? That makes no sense. I never claimed one way or the other Anet should reduce our gold to 1. Again, nonsensical hypothetical scenarios do NOT make whatever point you are trying to make. The thread isn't about Anet reducing gold to 1 so ... what are you rambling on about? It's simple: Anet making balancing changes is not removing content. You're trying to argue with a teenager who is absolutely desperately fishing for attention. 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted September 14 Author Share Posted September 14 (edited) 5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said: Yup I am. not even trying to hide it because again, whether I think it's OK or not for some hypothetical situation to exist is irrelevant to the thread. OK. They can be upset all they like ... but content was NOT removed. The OP is just being knowingly dishonest about the fact they don't like the balance change by saying content is removed. Why? Probably because the OP knows he's got no case (or if they do, they don't know how to express it reasonably). He's on a fishing trip. He's going home empty handed. Obtena! Hi ❤️ Long time no see~ A lot of people are referring to this as fishing or the like, but I would like to bring a couple things to attention: I -am- indeed a veteran, so I have some reasonable expectation of balance, and a track record of how Anet balances. With that context in mind, I found something particularly disagreeable about the way this balance patch affected spears for this particular patch. This is not a habit for me. Of course, weapon skills should be fair. I don't think that requires making them significantly less usable though. I do not think I am entitled to any particular balance state, but I do think that I should be able to purchase things I like, and return those things if a change to the product makes them unsuitable to use within reasonable circumstances. I'm not upset, but an item I purchased changed wildly, and the result of that change resembles the state of the weapon when I did not consider it worth spending on. Functionality of skills is content. Functionality of skills was removed. I've accepted Anet has a right to change the content however they like. I already got a refund. I meant what I said, I literally am no longer satisfied with the weapons state. Edited September 14 by Azure The Heartless.3261 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said: I do not think I am entitled to any particular balance state, but I do think that I should be able to purchase things I like, and return those things if a change to the product makes them unsuitable to use within reasonable circumstances. The product is not unsuitable to use within reasonable circumstances because it's not reasonable for you to think the 'product' (in this case, a weapon) should have a specific performance in PVP. It's absurd to think a refund is in order because you don't like the performance of a weapon in PVP. Edited September 14 by Obtena.7952 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted September 14 Author Share Posted September 14 (edited) 1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said: The product is not unsuitable to use within reasonable circumstances. You can tell yourself that if you'd like, but I beg to differ. Quote it's absurd to think a refund is in order because you don't like the performance of a weapon in PVP. I'm fine with being called absurd~ Edited September 14 by Azure The Heartless.3261 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said: You can tell yourself that if you'd like, but I beg to differ. It's not a matter of begging to differ. It's about the unreasonable expectation that you expect a certain performance from a weapon in a specific game mode. Never in the history of this game has Anet ever set an expectation for ANY weapon to perform at any level in any game mode. Based on that history, no matter how much you 'beg to differ', the reasonable circumstance here is that there should be NO expectation for any weapon to have specific performance in specific game modes. That's why the issue is absurd. You've simply imposed a standard that does not exist. It's typically the problem when anyone complains about balance because they think they get to set the standards. The worst part is trying to pass off your complaint as 'removal of content'. That's just not honest. Edited September 14 by Obtena.7952 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 1 hour ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: so i guess if they balanced the gold in everyones account to1 gold its still just a balancing right? I mean if you have one gold, they didnt remove the content its still there, its just not at an amount that you're happy with, but what can you do right? mmos balance things all the time, always do and always will. you paid money for your gold? oh well its a balance, this is what mmos do. You're unhappy, well post it on the forums see what reaction you get lol. the fact that you didnt anticipate a balance like this, well maybe its just not the game for you. Not a valid comparison. Not particularly relevant to my post either (and certainly not bait and switch) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted September 14 Author Share Posted September 14 24 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: Based on that history, no matter how much you 'beg to differ', the reasonable circumstance here is that there should be NO expectation for any weapon to have specific performance in specific game modes. That's why the issue is absurd. We've never agreed on this, not going to start now c:> Quote You've simply imposed a standard that does not exist. It's typically the problem when anyone complains about balance because they think they get to set the standards. I haven't imposed anything, nor can I. Anet sets the standards, and I choose whether or not I think those standards are worth supporting, yes? That is what I did. Quote The worst part is trying to pass off your complaint as 'removal of content'. That's just not honest. I explained this above ❤️ 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said: Not a valid comparison. Not particularly relevant to my post either (and certainly not bait and switch) its valid, and it is relevant to your post, it also goes back to my original point. Gacha communities psychologically do not tolerate things that dissatisfy them and they let the developer know it. MMo communities are divided and complacent and I would imagine the majority of players who don't like this simply quit quietly and are not vocal about it and they dont bother to let anyone on the forums know, and judging from the reception the OP got on here, why would they. This explains why MMO populations are down across the board for all MMO's whereas gacha games are latest greatest trend in videogaming so there's a lot more energy and focus placed on them by their communities. Edited September 14 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said: We've never agreed on this, not going to start now That's fine, because it's irrelevant if you agree or not. If you are going to talk about what is 'reasonable' or not, then what is NOT reasonable is that you impose your own expectations on how things work in the game to claim they don't function "under reasonable circumstances". Again, if you want a valid standard for what reasonable circumstances are, it's simply a matter of looking at how the game has worked for 11 years. Never has there been Anet setting an expectation for any weapon to perform at any level in any game mode. So to put plainly, the reasonable circumstance for a weapon to function is going to be as simple as being able to equip and use it. That says nothing of performance and if there ever will be some expectation for performance, it definitely WON'T come from players. You can try to explain it all you like, but that doesn't mean you are right. There simply isn't any way you are going to sell changes to weapon skills as 'removed content'. That's dishonest. Edited September 14 by Obtena.7952 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted September 14 Author Share Posted September 14 (edited) On 9/11/2024 at 3:56 AM, Manpag.6421 said: For that example to be relevant though, they would have had to have specifically advertised the expansion on the premise "Get warrior spear and dominate your foes in PvP!". Spears in general are a selling point, and OP got what they paid for. To expect anything to remain totally unchanged in a MMORPG, much less something that's dominating a competitive mode, is lunacy, and OP should've 100% known better. If they bought an entire expansion solely on an overpowered weapon for a single profession, that was a poor financial decision on their part. I didn't buy the expansion solely on an overpowered weapon for a single profession. In fact, I bought the weapon before I even knew what the damage numbers were, because the functionality changes of the weapon were thoughtful, well balanced and allowed it to appropriately fill a niche in my gameplay. The fact that it blew people up was an unfortunate side effect, and I do not play the spec that it blew people up on, so I did not benefit from it being overpowered or rely on it being so. They can and should have stopped it from blowing people up. However. In addition to the damage corrections, the balance patch undid the functionality of the skills that held the weapon together on the specs that were not being supercharged by spear. I did not expect the weapon to go from useful to useless immediately after I paid for it, and I don't think anyone that buys anything would expect or accept that either. They can stop the weapon from blowing people up without making it resemble the weapon that got all of the critique before Janthir Wilds released. I've seen them do much more complicated and intelligent reworks. Edited September 14 by Azure The Heartless.3261 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said: In addition to the damage corrections, the balance patch undid the functionality of the skills that held the weapon together on the specs that were not being supercharged by spear. I did not expect the weapon to go from useful to useless immediately after I paid for it, and I don't think anyone that buys anything would expect or accept that either. That goes right to my point ... you simply didn't like the balance changes. You simply don't want to admit that what Anet did was actually entirely within reason, standard and typical when you take into account the history of the game and other examples of how they make changes. The shameful part is the flamebait describing this as 'removed content', pretending something you paid for was taken away from you and not replaced with something else. Edited September 14 by Obtena.7952 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted September 14 Author Share Posted September 14 Just now, Obtena.7952 said: That goes right to my point ... you simply didn't like the balance changes. You simply don't want to admit that what Anet did was actually entirely within reason when you take into account the history of the game and other examples of how they make changes. Again, I don't know why you're trying to argue me out of the fact that I'm dissatisfied, and that I would like to relinquish access to the content because I'm dissatisfied. Nothing else matters. It's kind of strange. You probably shouldn't be trying to do that. 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Eater of Peeps.9062 said: I don't know why you keep going off on a tangent and derailing this thread. He is not the one going off on a tangent, derailing the thread. He is, however, responding to someone who is doing just that. Edited September 14 by Ashen.2907 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said: He is not the one going off on a tangent, derailing the thread. He is, however, responding to someone who is doing just that. lol how did i derail the thread everything i have said on here is apt and completely on point. Edited September 14 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 Just now, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said: lol how did i derail the thread everything i have said on here is apt and completely on point. Where in the OP are gacha games referenced? In a thread asking whether or not others know if a refund is possible references to monetization of a completely different genre of games are irrelevant. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 Just now, Ashen.2907 said: Where in the OP are gacha games referenced? In a thread asking whether or not others know if a refund is possible references to monetization of a completely different genre of games are irrelevant. thats a comparison not a derailment, i was directly referencing the OPs complaint and showing a comparison to how gamers behave in other gaming genres under similar circumstances. So ill take that apology now. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladestrom.6425 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 5 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said: Obtena! Hi ❤️ Long time no see~ A lot of people are referring to this as fishing or the like, but I would like to bring a couple things to attention: I -am- indeed a veteran, so I have some reasonable expectation of balance, and a track record of how Anet balances. With that context in mind, I found something particularly disagreeable about the way this balance patch affected spears for this particular patch. This is not a habit for me. Of course, weapon skills should be fair. I don't think that requires making them significantly less usable though. I do not think I am entitled to any particular balance state, but I do think that I should be able to purchase things I like, and return those things if a change to the product makes them unsuitable to use within reasonable circumstances. I'm not upset, but an item I purchased changed wildly, and the result of that change resembles the state of the weapon when I did not consider it worth spending on. Functionality of skills is content. Functionality of skills was removed. I've accepted Anet has a right to change the content however they like. I already got a refund. I meant what I said, I literally am no longer satisfied with the weapons state. This kind of self entitled attitude and inability to take responsibility for your own decisions is the bane of society, your lucky Anet gave you a refund quite frankly, very generous of them. With this attitude I could demand a refund because ele Spear doesn't actually work with Weaver, or pistol doesn't work in pvp, or hammer before this, or staff before that ..or I expected housing to be just so. It goes on and on. If you are buying/demanding refunds for a game where dps is not the core USP and the numbers are too low for you, then you are the problem. 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 7 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said: Functionality of skills is content. Functionality of skills was removed. No. That's not how that works. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loboling.5293 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 On 9/10/2024 at 1:53 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said: It's kind of like ordering a steak and they replace the steak with tofu one bite in but Yknow Go off It's more like you've been going to the same restaurant every day for a month and enjoying steak. One day they serve you tofu and tell you they don't serve steak anymore. You ask for a refund and they tell you to pay you back would require they ban you from the store. They need to consider some kind of compensation. But I doubt op would be satisfied. The reality is you enjoyed your build for a month. But no more than that. It goes with the territory in MMOs. Things change and with a sub game you can just cancel your sub. But GW2 makes money on microtransactions and expansion sales. So there is no sub. Only the choice to not buy future content. So give feedback and don't support anet if you feel like they tricked you. I personally get bummed sometimes too when my favorite build is changed. I miss my old meteor shower ele.build. But I still got to play it. They didn't trick me, they are just adjusting the game as they want to. Over time, things will come and go. So enjoy it while you can and accept all things end eventually. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cernoch.8524 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 (edited) 10 hours ago, Eater of Peeps.9062 said: It's not? I'm confused. Content that is altered, changed, omitted, buffed, etc., means the original form of that content is no longer accessible and therefore it was removed. Why argue semantics and confuse the main point? Especially when your characterization as to the generally accepted meaning of a word (i.e. - "removed") is not correct. Also, Anet has repeatedly removed content permanently or for long periods of time for numerous reasons (i.e. - Think "Scarlet"-based content), so I'm not sure why removal of content is a point of argument as the content of the spear build and its strength, damage, power have been obliterated or "removed." Also, why didn't it work? Didn't they test it before release? I suspect they did. Or was there a deliberate attempt to beef it up to make it more attractive than it's ultimate intended relative level of strength vis-a-vis other players for the remainder of the game? Or is the point to perpetually rotate, ok, now this class has the most dps, now this build does, now this class is not playable anymore against any other players in pvp or wvw, etc. Keep us on our toes I guess. What are you even talking about? Balance patches happens in EVERY online game since day one, all the time, no, it is not removing "content". Removing content would be if they completely removed the spear after a week or two. In that case yes, it is a valid reason for a refund. Just changing something that was OP is not, they did not even change its mechanic, how the skill works (for example range auto attack would become melee) or anything like that, they only changed the damage and the fact that you have to hit the enemy with skill 4 which is not a big change. Changes like this happens every 3 months. Let me say it this way, if anet changed the skills completely but it would be more OP than it already was (and still is btw) OP would never come with this idea of refund. His issue is only that the skills got a bit nerfed. Did anet ever showed the numbers and stats before JW release and said they will stay like this forever? No. Do they change and balance things almost every patch? Yes. And they will keep doing it until this game die. Transfusion just got nerfed a lot, more than any of those warrior skills, so did heal scourge, does people want refund for PoF? No lol You really have to be completely crazy or naive to think from now on they will not balance or change anything tied to JW. They keep doing it for 12 years, just like every other online game. Edited September 14 by Cernoch.8524 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 (edited) 10 hours ago, Eater of Peeps.9062 said: Why is it whenever a person asks a legitimate question that others might not like, or people complain about any feature of the game play, there is always someone complaining in return that the person shouldn't complain and they should just lump it. When did it become okay to chastise people for complaining to the extent we shut them down, rather than trying to change, help, readjust or re-educate them or ourselves? When did this culture become so passively abusive and in favor of shunning, berating or censoring? Is this the friendly gaming community everyone always touts, because I'm confused. Where did I say he shouldn't complain? He didn't even make an actual complaint btw (otherwise people wouldn't need to keep asking him what exactly he's talking about for a few pages), he started asking about refunds and those questions aren't for the community to answer, they're for the support. Why are you making up this nonsense instead of commenting on what you actually quoted and what OP actually wrote? 10 hours ago, Eater of Peeps.9062 said: Now I'm really confused! What is the point of the forum? Why have it at all? Should we all bombard mother anet with every question we ever have about any/every feature of the gameplay? Telling someone if they want a refund they should contact support because only they have an actual answer to the asked question in no way means you will be "bombarding anet with every question you ever have about any/every feature of the gameplay" nor that "the forum might as well be closed". Once again, you quote one thing and then respond with an irrelevant, completely made up strawman. And with that said, what you wrote here is extremely ironic: 10 hours ago, Eater of Peeps.9062 said: Why are you confusing/trolling the issue Are you doing it on purpose or do you actually not understand what the posts you quoted said? Edited September 14 by Sobx.1758 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted September 14 Share Posted September 14 (edited) 9 hours ago, Eater of Peeps.9062 said: And your refusal to educate yourself, when you've been pointed in the direction of material that will help you educate yourself only proves you have no desire to enlighten yourself at all on the issue at hand None of what he -intentionally vaguely- linked contains anything that makes balance patches against the law/regulations. It's not "my refusal to educate myself about law!" that makes his attempted argument (or rather accusation) false, it's the fact he's guessing when no laws are being broken here. Your idea -if it's even an honest one- that someone is free to scream "this breaks the law!" and whoever he talks to is supposed to make a basis for that claim for him is a ridiculous nonsense. That's simply not how any of that works, whether you like it or not. 9 hours ago, Eater of Peeps.9062 said: Unable and unwilling are two different things. They're also not mutually exclusive and in this case it's clear he's unable to provide anything for a long time now. Edited September 14 by Sobx.1758 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted September 14 Author Share Posted September 14 6 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said: No. That's not how that works. Thought experiment. Lets say you're looking at the cosmetic shop of another game. There's a really cool blue jacket with some blue particle trails on it that you like, as blue is your favorite color. You buy it. The next day, there's a change note that says that due to some issues with how that jacket renders on a certain subset of machines, some changes had to be made to the jacket. The jacket is now yellow, with yellow particle trails. You still have access to the jacket, but it is markedly different from the one you bought and has features you did not consider or expect when making your purchase. Is this a content loss? The item you wanted and bought is technically still in the game, it just is not the one your purchased. More importantly, are you entitled to a refund of the jacket? 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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