Humans Lore (Some Spoilers Ahead; New Players Are Warned!)

[Akisohida.8963]

I preface this by saying that I'm only near the end of the Icebrood Saga, so I don't know what happens in End of Dragons or Secrets of the Obscure yet. I don't own Janthir Wilds (I wish I did!)

To start; The lore states the Humans were lead to Tyria through the Mists by the human Gods. But that raises some questions:

1. From where? Will we ever see the Human home world?
2. Why were they fleeing? Was it an Elder Dragon destroying their world? Or something else? We know Humans are, to be honest, technologically stagnant. Even after centuries, they are still 'Medieval'. (Whereas Asura innovate magitechnology. And Charr are pretty much the forefront of nonmagical innovation; They even created the Engineer Profession!) So, it's doubtful they destroyed their own world through industry. Unless the Human Gods forced them into a kind of technological statis to prevent a repeat of their home world.
3. If they were fleeing a threat instead of something self-inflicted; Will it eventually follow them through the Mists?
4. As per #2 above; Could they just have fled over-industrializing their world? Have the Human Gods locked them in stasis, so to speak, to prevent a repeat? After all; They have Charr and Asura technology, but they don't seem to grow technologically. That seems odd, unless something is preventing them from doing so.
5. We also know the Human Gods left Tyria because they felt a war with the Elder Dragons would rip Tyria apart. They'd destroy the very thing they were trying to save. So... If all Elder Dragons die (Again; I'm not even fully through Icebrood Saga); Will the Human Gods return? What will happen if they do? Could it herald a new Profession based on the Human Gods? (Imagine an unarmed/Monk class who's abilities are flavored by the Human God chosen. Or maybe each attack embodies a different Human God aspect. It could work for other classes with the reasoning that these Professions are channeling the Gods. Not worshipping them. Even the Charr, who don't believe in 'False Gods' would admit the Human Gods exist if they came back. They just would not worship them.)
6. And lastly: If all the Elder Dragons are slain, and the Human Gods return...How would they view Aurene? Would the Human Gods become antagonists, believing she has to be killed? Or would they accept her as the Dragon of Balance and Healing she says she wants to be?

Edited September 15 by Akisohida.8963

[EDOTDOT.9265]

As far as I know, the origin of humans has never been explained beyond simply coming from another world.

[VaegaVic.6394]

1) We're never told. I hope one day we pick up the God arc again though.

2) We're not explicitly told they were fleeing, only that this new world (Tyria) was much more abundant in magic and better living conditions.

3) *shrugs*, I hope so! More mists more good!

4) Not a scooby, but I doubt over industrialisation was the cause, current tech levels would suggest something akin to pre-industrial revolution.

5) Good question, I won't spoil anything for you as you seem to enjoy lore, but suffice to say, we have seen no more gods since ol' Balthyboy. 

6) No idea, hopefully this might be an arc in future expansions.

[Danikat.8537]

We don't know anything about the origins of humans beyond what's in your post - they were lead to Tyria by their gods through the Mists. It happened thousands of years ago and there's no known records from that time so there's currently no way for us to get any more information. In real life there's been a lot of speculation over the years but in-game it's very rarely mentioned at all and doesn't seem to be something anyone is curious about.

It's always possible Anet will do more with the idea at some point in the future, whether they've already got more detailed work out or will need to create it, but until they do there's no way for us to know.

(Personally I'm fine with it remaining mysterious and if we ever do find out more I just hope the first Tyrian humans weren't from Earth in the modern day or near-future, that would be the most boring answer to me. Not only would it kill any need for curiosity about where they're from but it would also make it almost certain we'll never visit their world or meet anyone else from it. Also just in general I prefer high fantasy, with or without sci-fi elements, to portal fantasy.)

[Astralporing.1957]

Notice, that it's not even certain those are "human gods". GW1 suggested they had other "servitor races" before human, (last being Forgotten), and only pulled Humans from somewhere else when Forgotten ended up on the brink of extinction due to their population dwindling. Notice also, that there are some mentions to gods erasing most memories of humanity's previous world from them.

In short: it's not even sure humans were escaping anything, or that their arrival to Tyria was a willing one.

Sure, GW2 did some retcons on lore (and especially on gods and their origin), but it's interesting that, in GW2, when gods decided this world is going to be destroyed, they just fled, without pulling even their most faithful servants behind them. Which shows they never really cared about humanity at all. Which would be consitent with the GW1 lore i mentioned above.

[GeraldBC.4927]

During the prologue I thought this was where Janthir was going based on what Isgarren said about threats from the mists. But then nope, it's just

Spoiler

titans.

I hope we don't pick up the god arc. 

Frankly based on humans' treatment throughout gw2 lore wise I'd say the less anything human lore is touched, the better. All human-related lore added in the second game feels like it comes from a place of spite, especially with all the retcons at their expense. Just as an example, take what Kormir says in PoF. That the gods only make everything worse and that they acknowledge how bad and useless and harmful they are so they left. It was reaching such an extreme that it felt surreal. It didn't feel like this was something a goddess would actually say about herself. It had a too heavy side of self-loathing to it, as almost all things human lore do in this game, at least whenever it is written in the first person. The whole scene felt less like it was actually Kormir talking and more like someone else was venting their hatred for humans and the gods and merely using Kormir as a mouthpiece to give it legitimacy. Puppeteering her corpse like it's Weekend at Bernie's. 

Weekend at Kormir's.

Edited September 15 by GeraldBC.4927

[EDOTDOT.9265]

2 minutes ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

During the prologue I thought this was where Janthir was going based on what Isgarren said about threats from the mists. But then nope, it's just

  Hide contents

titans.

I hope we don't pick up the god arc. 

Frankly based on humans' treatment throughout gw2 lore wise I'd say the less anything human lore is touched, the better. All human-related lore added in the second game feels like it comes from a place of spite, especially with all the retcons at their expense. Just as an example, take what Kormir says in PoF. That the gods only make everything worse and that they acknowledge how bad and useless and harmful they are so they left. It was reaching such an extreme that it felt surreal. It didn't feel like this was something a goddess would actually say about herself. It had a too heavy side of self-loathing to it, as almost all things human lore do in this game, at least whenever it is written in the first person. The whole scene felt less like it was actually Kormir talking and more like someone else was venting their hatred for humans and the gods and merely using Kormir as a mouthpiece to give it legitimacy. Puppeteering her corpse like it's Weekend at Bernie's. 

Weekend at Kormir's.

Well, I do recall one of the devs stating that they weren't done with god arcs just yet so...?

[Dean Calaway.9718]

6 hours ago, Akisohida.8963 said:

From where?

Nobody knows...

6 hours ago, Akisohida.8963 said:

Why were they fleeing?

If I had to bet, taxes.

6 hours ago, Akisohida.8963 said:

Asura innovate magitechnology.

And still can't reach that top shelve.

6 hours ago, Akisohida.8963 said:

Charr are pretty much the forefront of nonmagical innovation

You mean like getting destroyers to go after the mean humans.

6 hours ago, Akisohida.8963 said:

Could they just have fled over-industrializing their world? Have the Human Gods locked them in stasis, so to speak, to prevent a repeat?

We only have about a billion preachy stories like that already, what's one more.

But I tell why humans destroying Tyria won't happen... Human leader in Kryta, woman. Human leader in Elona, woman. Human leader in Cantha, woman. With that much girlboss energy even carnivore animals will start vegan diets.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

7 hours ago, Akisohida.8963 said:

I preface this by saying that I'm only near the end of the Icebrood Saga, so I don't know what happens in End of Dragons or Secrets of the Obscure yet. I don't own Janthir Wilds (I wish I did!)

To start; The lore states the Humans were lead to Tyria through the Mists by the human Gods. But that raises some questions:

1. From where? Will we ever see the Human home world?
2. Why were they fleeing? Was it an Elder Dragon destroying their world? Or something else? We know Humans are, to be honest, technologically stagnant. Even after centuries, they are still 'Medieval'. (Whereas Asura innovate magitechnology. And Charr are pretty much the forefront of nonmagical innovation; They even created the Engineer Profession!) So, it's doubtful they destroyed their own world through industry. Unless the Human Gods forced them into a kind of technological statis to prevent a repeat of their home world.
3. If they were fleeing a threat instead of something self-inflicted; Will it eventually follow them through the Mists?
4. As per #2 above; Could they just have fled over-industrializing their world? Have the Human Gods locked them in stasis, so to speak, to prevent a repeat? After all; They have Charr and Asura technology, but they don't seem to grow technologically. That seems odd, unless something is preventing them from doing so.
5. We also know the Human Gods left Tyria because they felt a war with the Elder Dragons would rip Tyria apart. They'd destroy the very thing they were trying to save. So... If all Elder Dragons die (Again; I'm not even fully through Icebrood Saga); Will the Human Gods return? What will happen if they do? Could it herald a new Profession based on the Human Gods? (Imagine an unarmed/Monk class who's abilities are flavored by the Human God chosen. Or maybe each attack embodies a different Human God aspect. It could work for other classes with the reasoning that these Professions are channeling the Gods. Not worshipping them. Even the Charr, who don't believe in 'False Gods' would admit the Human Gods exist if they came back. They just would not worship them.)
6. And lastly: If all the Elder Dragons are slain, and the Human Gods return...How would they view Aurene? Would the Human Gods become antagonists, believing she has to be killed? Or would they accept her as the Dragon of Balance and Healing she says she wants to be?

1. Still unknown. All we know about the human homeworld is that it was low or completely lacking magic other than the gods'.
2. Nothing says they were fleeing. People believe that because the scrolls about Dwayna says she wished to bring her people to paradise, that Lyssa made "them" forget past troubles. This implies there were issues, but that doesn't mean they were fleeing or that the homeworld faced some cataclysmic event - for all we know the issues stemmed from simple overpopulation.
3. Theoretically plausible especially now that the Veil is damaged and Tyria is "blood in water" so to speak, but this is a big unknown if on top of a big uncertain if.
4. It's unlikely the gods "locked them in stasis" technologically because the gods have had a very hands off approach on humans for ~1100 years before leaving the planet. Charr technology came from dwarven technology, and humans weren't technologically inept as you claim - like asura, they had their own portal system and artificially mobile constructs, and like charr and dwarves they had black powder cannons and even massive mobile machinery (Luxon Leviathans). But the humans' technology was primarily focused on architecture - which both asura and charr lack - due to their constant state of war and needing defenses.
5. They may return, it's unclear. What will happen? Who knows, but knowing ANet's current (unjustified and self-inflicted) view of the gods they'll be villainized and we kill them in a single installment or something with half-assed motivations like Balthazar's which stemmed simply from "I'm bored". Monks, btw, still exist in the lore - it's just that combat monks evolved into Guardians. And charr know the Six Gods exist - they're not atheists, they're anti-theists, meaning they choose to oppose gods rather than worship gods. Double so for the Six Gods.
6. Under proper writing, I doubt the Six Gods would see Aurene as villainous or needing to be slain, double so since they believed killing the Elder Dragons would destroy Tyria (which is technically true). But as I mentioned, ANet writers since PoF have had a pretty solid kitten for villainizing the gods even through retroactive continuity, and certain current allies in SotO/JW hates the Six, so I don't expect the Six to return as allied forces, unfortunately.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Notice, that it's not even certain those are "human gods". GW1 suggested they had other "servitor races" before human, (last being Forgotten), and only pulled Humans from somewhere else when Forgotten ended up on the brink of extinction due to their population dwindling. Notice also, that there are some mentions to gods erasing most memories of humanity's previous world from them.

In short: it's not even sure humans were escaping anything, or that their arrival to Tyria was a willing one.

Sure, GW2 did some retcons on lore (and especially on gods and their origin), but it's interesting that, in GW2, when gods decided this world is going to be destroyed, they just fled, without pulling even their most faithful servants behind them. Which shows they never really cared about humanity at all. Which would be consitent with the GW1 lore i mentioned above.

Well the Six are humanoid at least. None of them are snake gods. But there does seem to be a consistent depiction of half of them as a winged humanoid species such as harpies or angels. Dwayna especially as she is always depicted with wings, but Melandru, Grenth, and Abaddon are also depicted with wings on occasion. Pre-Fall Abaddon is also described as having blue skin, just like Dwayna, which is interesting to note.

As to the gods abandoning their most faithful... Well, two things.

Firstly, original GW2 lore that got retconned with Path of Fire explained explicitly that the Six didn't abandon humanity but rather saw that they could manage on their own and that their own involvements only made things worse (i.e., Abaddon). Their departure was compared to parents seeing their kids off to live on their own after college. So just as a parent wouldn't stop caring about their children after living in different houses, the Six didn't stop caring about humanity either.

Secondly, even with the retcons of PoF and the Six's motivations for leaving going from "humans can handle themselves and we make things worse so we left before the Elder Dragons even began waking up" to "the Elder Dragons woke up but if we get involved the world will just be destroyed so we'll leave", it gets established in side content that the Six Gods are seeking a new place to bring their faithful to - after all, humans cannot survive for long periods of time in the Mists. We even saw what happens to humans (and charr, norn, and asura) after a mere 4 years in the Mists with the Aetherblades - they were stranded in the Mists in 1327 AE, and escaped in 1331 AE. But even in 1335 AE, they are still affected by the Mists and have strange glowing "smoke" coming off of them. Imagine what would happen if the Six were unable to find a new world for humans to live in after a dozen years or even longer. That wouldn't be healthy - it would be an easier risk to simply leave humans in Tyria while they search for a new homeworld.

This all said, the idea that the Six "never really cared about humanity at all" would NOT be consistent with GW1 lore. Especially given the very last piece of Balthazar lore was essentially "Tyria is going to be facing dangers soon, it's better to prepare humanity for it instead of slacking off enjoying festivities". Even if GW1 established other races followed the Six, and some did so even longer than humans, that doesn't imply the Six do not care about humanity.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

Just as an example, take what Kormir says in PoF. That the gods only make everything worse and that they acknowledge how bad and useless and harmful they are so they left. It was reaching such an extreme that it felt surreal. It didn't feel like this was something a goddess would actually say about herself. It had a too heavy side of self-loathing to it, as almost all things human lore do in this game, at least whenever it is written in the first person. The whole scene felt less like it was actually Kormir talking and more like someone else was venting their hatred for humans and the gods and merely using Kormir as a mouthpiece to give it legitimacy. Puppeteering her corpse like it's Weekend at Bernie's. 

Weekend at Kormir's.

That's... not what Kormir said.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, EDOTDOT.9265 said:

Well, I do recall one of the devs stating that they weren't done with god arcs just yet so...?

Granted this was said in 2017/2018 after PoF launched, and we've had two writer leadership changes since, so not exactly solid reason to believe we'll get more of the Six Gods still.

[EDOTDOT.9265]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Granted this was said in 2017/2018 after PoF launched, and we've had two writer leadership changes since, so not exactly solid reason to believe we'll get more of the Six Gods still.

This is true!  One can still speculate on whether or not there will be at least some level of closure in regards to the current situation with them because "bye Felicia" just seems so anticlimactic.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

I do think we're going to be seeing the gods again in a relatively short amount of time. The only question really is whether they'll be enemies or allies.

I'll personally drop the game entirely if they're the former, and that seems extreme but it's just my stance on it. Making the gods enemies would be to the human racial story and thematics like saying the Eternal Alchemy is a load of nonsense for the asura, or making Wolf, Bear, Snow Leopard and Raven evil for the norn. Massively and pointlessly upending, unsatisfying and with no pay off. To use the "parents" analogy given to the gods and the humans too, it would be like saying your parents never cared about you and were always using you as a means to an end. I do not think that is a lesson ANet wants to be teaching in their story.

It's right there in the human introduction cinematic. The humans have faith despite their silence. To go "haha you're wrong" to an entire playable race would be incredibly stupid and pretty spiteful. It's part of the reason why I dropped the game for a while due to the seemingly hostile stance of the writers to anything approaching religion. Despite the fact that religion IRL and religion in a fantasy world are VERY different things and shouldn't be conflated.

I do agree with Konig's observation however that it's very possible they'll be enemies given the current popular central character (Isgarren) seems hostile to them. But I will point out ANet have had Isgarren appear unflattering, bigoted or just plain wrong several times, and also blinded by emotion even, so I would like to see him be wrong about the gods. The gods were trusted enough by another seer to hand over powerful magical artifacts to their safekeeping. He might be bitter about that and that's colouring his perception.

Further to this, there are some oddities with the gods themselves and their relationship with Tyria - They are supremely powerful Mist beings yet they were able to enter Tyria when we are told that should have been impossible until after the death of Soo-Won. That implies they may well have been invited in, which may be why Isgarren is so bitter about them specifically. He claims they disrupted the balance of the world but they manifestly didn't, otherwise their arrival would have immediately triggered a dragon awakening, which it didn't.

Isgarren has lampshaded a far more powerful Mist entity that may now be able to see and interact with Tyria, and I think that's the other likely thing to happen - The gods getting worfed as a way to introduce this new threat and to tell us just how powerful it is. If this is the case and they're not killed but weakened, then they could safely be part of the story without overshadowing everything like Aurene did, and fill a position more similar to the Spirits of the Wild.

Given the latest reveals and developments, I theorise that the gods are currently either fighting this threat or still, as was revealed in Path of Fire, searching for a new world to take people to. Whether that's the humans or everyone on Tyria is another question, though I lean the latter given the previous characterisation that the gods do actually care about other races too. Furthermore, I think this threat from the Mists lampshaded by Isgarren could possibly be the thing that destroyed the human (and Forgotten?) homeworld. It provides a narrative throughline and connection to the current story.

Edited yesterday at 12:22 PM by ThatOddOne.4387

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

43 minutes ago, ThatOddOne.4387 said:

 or still, as was revealed in Path of Fire, searching for a new world to take people to.

To be clear, this wasn't "revealed" in PoF to be what the gods are doing.

PoF had one book, from a guy who claimed to have had a vision from Kormir, but provides no real proof that he did, saying this was the case. However, Kormir herself never mentions the Gods doing such a thing, and when the actual, literal, apocalypse began to happen with the Void crisis, the Gods were nowhere to be found.

The PoF lore books also make several false statements like Vlast fighting the branded in the desert for "generations" when they had only been around for like 10 years, and that the Order of Shadows was murdering Order of Whispers agents which is never brought up or hinted at anywhere else. There is really nothing to indicate the gods are doing diddly squat to find a new world for humans to live on.

43 minutes ago, ThatOddOne.4387 said:

 Further to this, there are some oddities with the gods themselves and their relationship with Tyria - They are supremely powerful Mist beings yet they were able to enter Tyria when we are told that should have been impossible until after the death of Soo-Won.

There is nothing indicating that the gods entering Tyria should've been impossible until the death of Soo-Won. Kryptis such as Kanaxai and the Oni, and even Eparch himself, were able to get past Isgarren and his World Spire's barrier multiple times throughout history. The Gods are several magnitudes more powerful, and would've had no issue to do so. The barrier was supposed to stop large scale invasions like what we saw in SoTO, not stop all travel from mist beings.

Edited yesterday at 12:52 PM by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Kulvar.1239]

What's extremely weird and suspicious is why are they humans gods and not just the gods.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

45 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

What's extremely weird and suspicious is why are they humans gods and not just the gods.

They WERE just "the gods" during GW1 time. It's only with the advent of GW2 they were referenced as 'the human gods'. It was a narrative way for ANet to move away from making them so prominent and giving the other races something "equal".

They've since moved away from that in more recent storytelling (IE, Isgarren saying "gods" and not "human gods"), and non-humans referring to them as just "the gods" instead of "the human gods".

Edited yesterday at 04:21 PM by ThatOddOne.4387

[Kalavier.1097]

7 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

 

PoF had one book, from a guy who claimed to have had a vision from Kormir, but provides no real proof that he did, saying this was the case. However, Kormir herself never mentions the Gods doing such a thing, and when the actual, literal, apocalypse began to happen with the Void crisis, the Gods were nowhere to be found.

T the Order of Shadows was murdering Order of Whispers agents which is never brought up or hinted at anywhere else. 

 

Just wanted to reply to these things. First off, the gods have rarely stepped in directly to actually be involved in things since abaddon was imprisoned, even when he was at risk of breaking out they basically shrugged and went "You got this guys, we'll be over here". The gods going "Hey we are trying to find a new world for you guys" would, at worst, encourage apathy and lack of action. Why really bother trying to solve the elder dragon issue when the gods are going to save us humans right? It also assumes that they have already found a world when the void crisis came, or had directly contact/way of knowing it was happening. IIRC, the whole Void crisis was a relatively short period of time.

Given how there aren't any Order of Whispers agents throughout the Elona core maps, and also "Spy organizations fighting in the background" wouldn't be very obvious anyway. It wasn't a major plot detail but a side one. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

10 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

What's extremely weird and suspicious is why are they humans gods and not just the gods.

Technically, they're NOT "the human gods".

They are The Six Gods. Calling them "the human gods" is an uncommon title that mostly exists in early out of universe promotions.

And in GW1, they were never called human gods. Because they were worshiped not just by humans, but either in whole or in part by Forgotten, dwarves, centaurs, and possibly nagas and harpies.

In GW2, the few times they're called "human god(s)" is because they're mostly worshiped by humans and most associated with bringing humans. But they are not "the human gods" by any real, reliable narrator, means. And as mentioned by @ThatOddOne.4387, the uncommon amount of using "human god(s)" has reduced even further in post-Elder Dragon Saga storytelling.

[draxynnic.3719]

And even when it is used, a norn, sylvari, charr, or asura calling them "the human gods" could be an accurate portrayal of how most members of those races view the gods since humans are the worshippers they'd have the most experience with by far. Forgotten, dwarfs, and naga weren't exactly prominent when the story started. There's also the ongoing question of whether Mellaggan is an aspect of Melandru or an independent entity.