Invulnerability = ruin the game

[Flauvious.6195]

@plushiesoda.8150 said:in a world were over 800k healing on marauder gear, over 15 stacks of confusion in a 3s burst and AoE condition bombing are a thing, invulnerability ain't really much of an issue compared even to stability to me.

I bet over half of the people voting for removing it from pvp main a power build... probably holosmith

Well duh, considering it doesn't affect condi builds much at all while completely nullifying power.

[Flauvious.6195]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:The biggest problem I have with invuln is on warriors and specifically spell breakers. Not only do they have a passive traited invuln but an active as well. Then full counter which blocks an attack and then does insane damage and transfers conditions. If all that fails they can chain cc you if you manage to outlive their heavy damage, both invulns, constant interrupts, potential shield blocks, full counter block, and seemingly infinite gap closers. It’s just not fun fighting something that is constantly immune to damage, constantly had stability and cannot be stunned, and can passively avoid pretty much all damage for a good 2 minutes of a fight while their heath rapidly regenerates and they’re back to having their cool downs up again. Out of all the classes I hate playing against they are by far the worst, followed by push pull dragon hunter builds and evade spam condi thieves.

Rangers have two invulns now too but they at least have to be activated. And engineers double invulns aren’t TOO bad as long as you manage to kite them or stay away long enough for them to get photon forge on cool down.

Warriors still need some balance tuning though. Having some warrior stick to you an entire fight and just run around interrupting you or stunning you and everyone else amidst all the damage knowing they have a passive trait to keep them from dying if they screw up is just dumb.

Can’t really complain about any others because they at least take some skill, have some risk involved, and take you actually pushing a button or timing your abilities right. Holo being the exception but they at least have to rely on cool down management and take more effort for mobility.

Lol what? "Not only do they have traited invuln but an active as well"? You know engi and ranger are the exact same way right? Ranger signer is a utility which can be activated, and also traited to proc at a %hp. Engi elixer is a utility that can be activated and traited to proc at a %hp. Exactly the same as warrior, except warriors only lasts 2 seconds compared to 6 for ranger and 3 for engi.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

If you don't like the way the game plays find something else. All this forum does is complain about fundamental design elements.

[Rodzynald.5897]

Mmm no... invulnerabilities should either make you incapable of stomping, ressing OR make it so that it reduces the overall power and condition damage by 80% and rename it to something else.It's not that invulnerability itself bugs me, it's alright I guess. What really rustles my jimmies is, oh how many times, just the moment I want to deliver a killing blow, a passive invuln procs, making the target 100% impervious to any damage (considering that condi was not applied before the proc). Sometimes changing the outcome of a fight.Many holos are like kamikaze, bursting in with all their might, fearing not of death to power damage. Only condi can smack'em well.At first I thought it is a L2P issue, but when I find myself in situations when this passive little bugger changes the outcome of a fight so frequently (not only versus me), it really makes me wonder if this is how it really should be.Now being invulnerable through resistances and endure pain is a whole new level. Perhaps invulnerabilities won't get changed the way I described it, but I would gladly go with more endure pain for warriors, but as a powered up protection buff. Cannot be corrupted, so let it be as it is now, but instead of 100% power immunity, a 70% power damage immunity perhaps.

[Bast.7253]

@Flauvious.6195 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:The biggest problem I have with invuln is on warriors and specifically spell breakers. Not only do they have a passive traited invuln but an active as well. Then full counter which blocks an attack and then does insane damage and transfers conditions. If all that fails they can chain cc you if you manage to outlive their heavy damage, both invulns, constant interrupts, potential shield blocks, full counter block, and seemingly infinite gap closers. It’s just not fun fighting something that is constantly immune to damage, constantly had stability and cannot be stunned, and can passively avoid pretty much all damage for a good 2 minutes of a fight while their heath rapidly regenerates and they’re back to having their cool downs up again. Out of all the classes I hate playing against they are by far the worst, followed by push pull dragon hunter builds and evade spam condi thieves.

Rangers have two invulns now too but they at least have to be activated. And engineers double invulns aren’t TOO bad as long as you manage to kite them or stay away long enough for them to get photon forge on cool down.

Warriors still need some balance tuning though. Having some warrior stick to you an entire fight and just run around interrupting you or stunning you and everyone else amidst all the damage knowing they have a passive trait to keep them from dying if they screw up is just dumb.

Can’t really complain about any others because they at least take some skill, have some risk involved, and take you actually pushing a button or timing your abilities right. Holo being the exception but they at least have to rely on cool down management and take more effort for mobility.

Lol what? "Not only do they have traited invuln but an active as well"? You know engi and ranger are the exact same way right? Ranger signer is a utility which can be activated, and also traited to proc at a %hp. Engi elixer is a utility that can be activated and traited to proc at a %hp. Exactly the same as warrior, except warriors only lasts 2 seconds compared to 6 for ranger and 3 for engi.

Except engineers don’t have as easy access to stubs or an ability that blocks a full attack, deals high damage, and transfers all conditions, or for that matter as much mobility without rocket boots or rifle 5 and then you’re wasting abilities you could use for sustain via finishers.

I️ didn’t realize rangers had a traited invuln though and agree it lasts way too long. They’re just not as annoying unless they’re really skilled.

Warriors just have too much access to things that give them an immediate advantage to most classes with the other exception of necro, guardian, and sometimes Mesmer.

[Bast.7253]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:If you don't like the way the game plays find something else. All this forum does is complain about fundamental design elements.

If you don’t like the forums you should probably find some other forums.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:If you don't like the way the game plays find something else. All this forum does is complain about fundamental design elements.

If you don’t like the forums you should probably find some other forums.

The reddit is much better generally ;)

[Cobrakon.3108]

@"JVJD.4912" said:I don't see any issues with Invulnerability itself

However if you meant having unlimited stealth/dodges regardless of skill level like back in the day then yeah i would have signed on it :)

That's turning with A, D for ya. So many -DnD-card-game- poo poo heads dont want to play a dynamic game where POSITIONAL play is much more important than doing mindless rotations and letting u turn your keyboard with a/d and let all those passives proc. Why u fear the stealth baby? look at every other assasin character in every other game...... every other game has wayyyyy better assasins. U just fear he back stab because u cant positional play probably. When a backstabber is behind u ... you are like holding down "A" as you crab walk rotate 180 degrees for about 20 seconds. You fear the game being more like a fighting game where everyone has a fair shake and everyone can kill everyone with enough skill u love rock paper scissors. You hate the idea of duels.... you would never be caught playing games like street fighter. You love rng and all the junk abilities that pop up. You like build winnning other builds. You dont want it to be about timed dodges and counter attacks. You sir......are on THAT side of the gaming industry.

[shion.2084]

@Flauvious.6195 said:Passive traits need that make you invuln need to go. Engi elixer, ranger and warrior signet. Passive traits should just give you extra defenses, not be a straight get out of jail free card. Especially these ones are so easy to trait and are in every build of these classes.

I think there's a large difference between a Passive invuln that doesn't allow you to do any damage while invuln, and one that you can still wail away on your opponent whiel invulnerable. I actually find elixr S passive proc trait the most useful thing in helping me kill engineers (I play one and never take the trait). We'll be neck and neck, they'll proc, I'll get cap, then I simply count the 5 seconds while using my heals to buff my health.

I also don't take elixr S, (I run FT, EG, and Elix B). Now compare that to some of the other classes invulnerabilities and the Engi one is not even remotely in the same class. So careful who your painting with the same brush. I'd rather have the engi elix S in the game... lets me kill them much easier.

[Ario.8964]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@Flauvious.6195 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:The biggest problem I have with invuln is on warriors and specifically spell breakers. Not only do they have a passive traited invuln but an active as well. Then full counter which blocks an attack and then does insane damage and transfers conditions. If all that fails they can chain cc you if you manage to outlive their heavy damage, both invulns, constant interrupts, potential shield blocks, full counter block, and seemingly infinite gap closers. It’s just not fun fighting something that is constantly immune to damage, constantly had stability and cannot be stunned, and can passively avoid pretty much all damage for a good 2 minutes of a fight while their heath rapidly regenerates and they’re back to having their cool downs up again. Out of all the classes I hate playing against they are by far the worst, followed by push pull dragon hunter builds and evade spam condi thieves.

Rangers have two invulns now too but they at least have to be activated. And engineers double invulns aren’t TOO bad as long as you manage to kite them or stay away long enough for them to get photon forge on cool down.

Warriors still need some balance tuning though. Having some warrior stick to you an entire fight and just run around interrupting you or stunning you and everyone else amidst all the damage knowing they have a passive trait to keep them from dying if they screw up is just dumb.

Can’t really complain about any others because they at least take some skill, have some risk involved, and take you actually pushing a button or timing your abilities right. Holo being the exception but they at least have to rely on cool down management and take more effort for mobility.

Lol what? "Not only do they have traited invuln but an active as well"? You know engi and ranger are the exact same way right? Ranger signer is a utility which can be activated, and also traited to proc at a %hp. Engi elixer is a utility that can be activated and traited to proc at a %hp. Exactly the same as warrior, except warriors only lasts 2 seconds compared to 6 for ranger and 3 for engi.

Except engineers don’t have as easy access to stubs or an ability that blocks a full attack, deals high damage, and transfers all conditions, or for that matter as much mobility without rocket boots or rifle 5 and then you’re wasting abilities you could use for sustain via finishers.

I️ didn’t realize rangers had a traited invuln though and agree it lasts way too long. They’re just not as annoying unless they’re really skilled.

Warriors just have too much access to things that give them an immediate advantage to most classes with the other exception of necro, guardian, and sometimes Mesmer.

Nobody uses the ranger one cause it's in a line that would forego a ton of their other defensive and regenerative capability.

[Lazze.9870]

@"Flauvious.6195" said:Passive traits need that make you invuln need to go. Engi elixer, ranger and warrior signet. Passive traits should just give you extra defenses, not be a straight get out of jail free card. Especially these ones are so easy to trait and are in every build of these classes.

Easy to trait? Not only is the passive signet of stone a lesser version of the actual skill, it comes at the cost of taking one of the weakest ranger traitlines for pvp (I'd say the weakest until they make the minors not depedent on a grandmaster to have an effect mid-fights). As opposed to engineers that run alchemy in every build ever, or warriors that run defense in every build ever. But yeah, sure, the passive ranger trait is totaly comparable to those.

For the longest time, ranger had no such trait. They reworked an older trait that activated the old version of signet of the wild (which used to be somewhat useful when it was in the Nature Magic line). After it was moved to marksmanship, even after the rework to make it activate signet of stone instead, it only works as a small compensation for running a traitline that otherwise gives you no defensive utilities.

You can't possibly look at the ranger and say it got "too much" invuln. By definition it has none, the signet is just for power damage. Doesn't do anything with condis, doesn't break stun, remove condis or add boons, can't be traited for anything but fury and reduced cooldown. Druid doesn't have the damage to make that "invuln" op, soulbeast isn't even meta (and will never run marksmanship due to the elite spec line itself relying on a combination of WS, NM or BM to have any defenses and synergy at all).

[Loop.8106]

@shion.2084 said:

@Flauvious.6195 said:Passive traits need that make you invuln need to go. Engi elixer, ranger and warrior signet. Passive traits should just give you extra defenses, not be a straight get out of jail free card. Especially these ones are so easy to trait and are in every build of these classes.

I think there's a large difference between a Passive invuln that doesn't allow you to do any damage while invuln, and one that you can still wail away on your opponent whiel invulnerable. I actually find elixr S passive proc trait the most useful thing in helping me kill engineers (I play one and never take the trait). We'll be neck and neck, they'll proc, I'll get cap, then I simply count the 5 seconds while using my heals to buff my health.

I also don't take elixr S, (I run FT, EG, and Elix B). Now compare that to some of the other classes invulnerabilities and the Engi one is not even remotely in the same class. So careful who your painting with the same brush. I'd rather have the engi elix S in the game... lets me kill them much easier.

This was true until people started running Explosives and Holosmith with Minetrail + Vent Exhaust. This is bound / reckless dodger on steriods.

[Dreams.3128]

@Loop.8106 said:

@Lilyanna.9361 said:

but is it fair to take passives away from a class that can only get condi cleanse through weapon swap

This is false. You have Signet of Stamina which is a full clear. You have shouts which cleanse. (Shake it Off!) You have traits which additionally cleanse on shouts (warhorn skills included). You do have access to plenty of condition cleanse. You have just been to spoiled to ever use them since resistance became a thing.

???

Who uses any of those?Please tell me who uses shouts or Warhorn competitively.

I'll wait.

And before you continue, no, I'm not spoiled because I don't main warrior. So sorry to bust you bubble there bucko. I don't play any classes that play with free aegis or resistance like Guard or Warrior.

Some people just don't like classes that rely on such little skill rotation on guard and war. Especially when the little combos they have is so small I could macro it on four buttons and basically have the whole set up covered.

And if you person that also responded knew how to actually read, I said it was a strong class, not an OP class. A class that has hardly see the nerf bat that many times to others.

But sadly, you want to read things and assume things your way, so I'm going to let you since that's what people on these forums simply do these days. I'm going to enjoy my drinks for the new year while you praddle around and complain. Explains why Anet hardly pays attention to the PvP forums nowadays.?

But! Ciao for now!

[Vagrant.7206]

IMO, you shouldn't be able to perform attacks while invuln (IE Elixir S/Meditation). This is the most balanced I've seen invuln used in other MMOs.

[verskore.4312]

Im not necessarily against invu but too much is too much. I play holo and we have 2 times we can elixer s (1 passive) and that saves my hide quite often. Problem is if you remove that our sustainability would go down massively and it's allrdy not very high so removing invu would have to be compensated in other ways.

[Ithilwen.1529]

The "scholar" light armor classes depend on invulnerabilities to survive.

Mesmer in particular has already had it's defenses nerfed many times, in one case severely in the middle of a season.

The problem is that the heavies have it too, on top of armor and damage edges.

Before defenses are downgraded generally, two things need to happen:

The super attacks need to be backed way down. There are quite a few attack combinations out there that will literally kill me before my thumb can move on my gaming mouse to reply. To survive at all.. I have to guess and anticipate the attack. Reacting to a 0.25 second casting time nuke doesn't work most of the time. A good way to help this would be to back aoe way off and force players to choose targets.

Heavy and mid armor needs reduced defense as a separate category. The down grading of defenses would need to be weighted in favor of light armor.

[Wolfric.9380]

Well i main ele and even when using arcane i usually traited elemental contigency and this trait is realy not an issue its a triple block not an invul .. And on power warrior i always picked armored defence ... Stealth and evasion on mesmer/thief make more problems than some passive traits that sometimes avoide a spike damage kill.

[Dukotje.4382]

just don't be dumb and waste your shit while enemy is invuln.. it also prevents capping / contesting so its at a cost.