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People trying to justify scourge as balanced.

Razor.6392

By Razor.6392
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ReaverKane.7598

ReaverKane.7598

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@MithranArkanere.8957 said:People always try to justify their sources of free or low effort currency and shinnies.

They are only fools who do not realize ANet has their own metrics and can see these broken builds being too effective too often. So when those get finally fixed despite all their efforts to prevent the fixes by antagonizing anyone speaking from reason, they whine and cry in frustration, which only shows their immaturity. Their immaturity to admit they know the build is too effective too often, and their immaturity to cope with the changes that rightfully have to be done to address the problem.

I'll throw that back at you... So far scourge saw no changes? That means they aren't that OP? I mean they had a patch where if it was that broken they could have easily lowered some damage or increased cast times, or cooldowns.

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Durzlla.6295

Durzlla.6295

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@arenta.2953 said:

@arenta.2953 said:don't forget "they don't have range or mobility. so just range them to death" as if thats actually possible <.<

It is.

if they just stay there. and its 1 on 1. sure.

but be realistic. in a fight, they going to try to get to you. and use terrain or ranged skills with cripple or immoblize to do it.

and if its a group zerg. may god have mercy cause that scourge is going to stampede on you. and no armor will save you. no condition cleanse will be enough. and any boon will just kitten you over.

You're makign some wrong assumptions here...A Ranger/Druid won't be a high priority target for a group, a scourge, will... So what's more likely in a group fight? The whole enemy focusing a ranger sniping a scourge, or the ranger's team focusing the scourge, thus allowing him to obliterate the scourge?

how long will it take for a single ranger to kill a scourge thats in a zerg, and which benefits from zerg heals. (not to mention shots beign obstructed, or hitting wrong enemy)

and good luck targeting a single scourge in a zerg. its called a zerg for a reason.

and if you've done wvw. you'll know why people spam AoES rather than single target.

Depends on the build, if we’re talking a Soulbeast LB ranger that’s going straight up glassy Assassin style of play, just a rapid fire and a handful of autos, all of which are unblockable and pierce. And given that the current meta seems to have a significant lack of thieves and mesmers the ranger should feel pretty safe while doing so.

I’d imagine a deadeye could also fulfill the same purpose, I had a deadeye in a few of my games last night and a few seconds after I’d call out the scourge the poor bastard would just drop to the floor.

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aceofbass.2163

aceofbass.2163

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@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@aceofbass.2163 said:funny how only ranger mains defend this.

Defend what?

read whole thread

I did, there's at least two different positions being defended.

that scourges are not broken because rangers can shoot them down.

dude not everyone wants to play ranger nor play an all out range for that matter. If you want to play as a melee class in pvp well git gud.

I don't play FB in pvp before but now I am using it exclusively because it's the only one that can survive the condi bomb in close quarters.

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MithranArkanere.8957

MithranArkanere.8957

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@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:People always try to justify their sources of free or low effort currency and shinnies.

They are only fools who do not realize ANet has their own metrics and can see these broken builds being too effective too often. So when those get finally fixed despite all their efforts to prevent the fixes by antagonizing anyone speaking from reason, they whine and cry in frustration, which only shows their immaturity. Their immaturity to admit they know the build is too effective too often, and their immaturity to cope with the changes that rightfully have to be done to address the problem.

I'll throw that back at you... So far scourge saw no changes? That means they aren't that OP? I mean they had a patch where if it was that broken they could have easily lowered some damage or increased cast times, or cooldowns.

ANet's balance is slow. Too slow many would say. But it eventually happens. Just because we don't have weekly or biweekly balance udpates like Blizzard can do for their games that doesn't mean it won't happen. It may seem easy for some to do some hotfix to tweak things, but if it was that easy, it would be done more often. Just the localization of the update notes alone takes way more time than people think.

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ReaverKane.7598

ReaverKane.7598

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@aceofbass.2163 said:

@aceofbass.2163 said:funny how only ranger mains defend this.

Defend what?

read whole thread

I did, there's at least two different positions being defended.

that scourges are not broken because rangers can shoot them down.

dude not everyone wants to play ranger nor play an all out range for that matter. If you want to play as a melee class in pvp well git gud.

I don't play FB in pvp before but now I am using it exclusively because it's the only one that can survive the condi bomb in close quarters.

1) Actually i'm a scourge main, and there's a lot of people out there that play other classes, like ele, that say the same. And if ranger mains say that, then there is a counter. You wanting to use it or not doesn't invalidate the fact that it can be countered.

2) If you want to play melee exclusively. Well, it's a 5v5, pick a non-scourge target, or wait till yu guys are enough that you can bust them down.

3) I love how you complain about broken classes just to state you play one. And btw, scourge is one of the only counters to broken FB. I'm guessing your lobbying to get rid of the only build that can kill your choice of class easily?

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:People always try to justify their sources of free or low effort currency and shinnies.

They are only fools who do not realize ANet has their own metrics and can see these broken builds being too effective too often. So when those get finally fixed despite all their efforts to prevent the fixes by antagonizing anyone speaking from reason, they whine and cry in frustration, which only shows their immaturity. Their immaturity to admit they know the build is too effective too often, and their immaturity to cope with the changes that rightfully have to be done to address the problem.

I'll throw that back at you... So far scourge saw no changes? That means they aren't that OP? I mean they had a patch where if it was that broken they could have easily lowered some damage or increased cast times, or cooldowns.

ANet's balance is slow. Too slow many would say. But it eventually happens. Just because we don't have weekly or biweekly balance udpates like Blizzard can do for their games that doesn't mean it won't happen. It may seem easy for some to do some hotfix to tweak things, but if it was that easy, it would be done more often. Just the localization of the update notes alone takes way more time than people think.Yes its slow, too slow.And it happened
twice
since Scourge was released, thus kind of putting your whole theory to rest.It doesn't happen more often, not because it's easy or hard, but because they adopted the wrong approach. They do huge changes every 3 months, and then let them fester for another 3 months before changing anything. And that's on a good patch, because a lot of the time their changes have barely any impact. Like the two previous balance patches.If instead of doing big changes they'd release minor ones every week or 2 weeks, by the time they reach the 3 months line they'd have done 6 different iterations, which allows them to see what's working and what isn't faster and address that faster.

And i love how you managed to be ridiculous about translating patch notes, that part was hilarious.I've translated all the skills in a MMORPG from English to Portuguese, plus a big chunk of the quest and NPC dialogue in a week, 4 hours a day.A forum's Patch notes? 20 minutes and done.Tool-tips on an update? 90% of that is just numbers, so don't need translating. What little usually changes in terms of actual balance patches, should be done quite fast.

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aceofbass.2163

aceofbass.2163

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@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@aceofbass.2163 said:funny how only ranger mains defend this.

Defend what?

read whole thread

I did, there's at least two different positions being defended.

that scourges are not broken because rangers can shoot them down.

dude not everyone wants to play ranger nor play an all out range for that matter. If you want to play as a melee class in pvp well git gud.

I don't play FB in pvp before but now I am using it exclusively because it's the only one that can survive the condi bomb in close quarters.

1) Actually i'm a scourge main, and there's a lot of people out there that play other classes, like ele, that say the same. And if ranger mains say that, then
there is a counter
. You wanting to use it or not doesn't invalidate the fact that it can be countered.

2) If you want to play melee exclusively. Well, it's a 5v5, pick a non-scourge target, or wait till yu guys are enough that you can bust them down.

3) I love how you complain about broken classes just to state you play one. And btw, scourge is one of the only counters to broken FB. I'm guessing your lobbying to get rid of the only build that can kill your choice of class easily?

  1. I never said there is absolutely zero counter to scourge. Right now I am countering it with support FB. It's just sad so many builds have been invalidated because of one spec.

  2. Even on 4v2 I see teammates dropping dead on 2 scourge spam. This is not even low rank. I know they should play better but damn.

  3. It's the other way around. FB is one of the only counters to broken scourge. Also, I stated that because I was forced to changed to it because of the scourge meta. No I am not trying to get "rid" of scourge. I am trying to voice out on how to reduce the insane amount of condi applied in a single button click.

Maybe it's not the scourge's fault, maybe it's Anet's implementation of condis. At least the balance team should have a look.

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ReaverKane.7598

ReaverKane.7598

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@aceofbass.2163 said:

@aceofbass.2163 said:funny how only ranger mains defend this.

Defend what?

read whole thread

I did, there's at least two different positions being defended.

that scourges are not broken because rangers can shoot them down.

dude not everyone wants to play ranger nor play an all out range for that matter. If you want to play as a melee class in pvp well git gud.

I don't play FB in pvp before but now I am using it exclusively because it's the only one that can survive the condi bomb in close quarters.

1) Actually i'm a scourge main, and there's a lot of people out there that play other classes, like ele, that say the same. And if ranger mains say that, then
there is a counter
. You wanting to use it or not doesn't invalidate the fact that it can be countered.

2) If you want to play melee exclusively. Well, it's a 5v5, pick a non-scourge target, or wait till yu guys are enough that you can bust them down.

3) I love how you complain about broken classes just to state you play one. And btw, scourge is one of the only counters to broken FB. I'm guessing your lobbying to get rid of the only build that can kill your choice of class easily?

  1. I never said there is absolutely zero counter to scourge. Right now I am countering it with support FB. It's just sad so many builds have been invalidated because of one spec.

  2. Even on 4v2 I see teammates dropping dead on 2 scourge spam. This is not even low rank. I know they should play better but kitten.

  3. It's the other way around. FB is one of the only counters to broken scourge. Also, I stated that because I was forced to changed to it because of the scourge meta. No I am not trying to get "rid" of scourge. I am trying to voice out on how to reduce the insane amount of condi applied in a single button click.

Maybe it's not the scourge's fault, maybe it's Anet's implementation of condis. At least the balance team should have a look.

Ok, lets do an exercise:Count the number of condis you get on a given exchange.Now exclude Cripple, torment and burns.Whatever you got left is not scourge, but core necro (or other classes).Scourge just plays better with corruption traits because it has punishment skills pushing out a bit more condis.And i'm guessing that the future changes to the corruption tables will address that, hopefully without nerfing Reaper and core necro too much.Other than that, giving some counter-play to shades should tone down scourge enough so it's not overbearing.

Because, lets face it, compared to Mirage killing you straight out of stealth, scourge is a meek class. For a scourge to really kill you they'll have to spend most of their life force on a "shade bomb", and you only die to that if you are standing still.

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aceofbass.2163

aceofbass.2163

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@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@aceofbass.2163 said:funny how only ranger mains defend this.

Defend what?

read whole thread

I did, there's at least two different positions being defended.

that scourges are not broken because rangers can shoot them down.

dude not everyone wants to play ranger nor play an all out range for that matter. If you want to play as a melee class in pvp well git gud.

I don't play FB in pvp before but now I am using it exclusively because it's the only one that can survive the condi bomb in close quarters.

1) Actually i'm a scourge main, and there's a lot of people out there that play other classes, like ele, that say the same. And if ranger mains say that, then
there is a counter
. You wanting to use it or not doesn't invalidate the fact that it can be countered.

2) If you want to play melee exclusively. Well, it's a 5v5, pick a non-scourge target, or wait till yu guys are enough that you can bust them down.

3) I love how you complain about broken classes just to state you play one. And btw, scourge is one of the only counters to broken FB. I'm guessing your lobbying to get rid of the only build that can kill your choice of class easily?

  1. I never said there is absolutely zero counter to scourge. Right now I am countering it with support FB. It's just sad so many builds have been invalidated because of one spec.

  2. Even on 4v2 I see teammates dropping dead on 2 scourge spam. This is not even low rank. I know they should play better but kitten.

  3. It's the other way around. FB is one of the only counters to broken scourge. Also, I stated that because I was forced to changed to it because of the scourge meta. No I am not trying to get "rid" of scourge. I am trying to voice out on how to reduce the insane amount of condi applied in a single button click.

Maybe it's not the scourge's fault, maybe it's Anet's implementation of condis. At least the balance team should have a look.

Ok, lets do an exercise:Count the number of condis you get on a given exchange.Now exclude Cripple, torment and burns.Whatever you got left is not scourge, but core necro (or other classes).Scourge just plays better with corruption traits because it has punishment skills pushing out a bit more condis.And i'm guessing that the future changes to the corruption tables will address that, hopefully without nerfing Reaper and core necro too much.Other than that, giving some counter-play to shades should tone down scourge enough so it's not overbearing.

Because, lets face it, compared to Mirage killing you straight out of stealth, scourge is a meek class. For a scourge to really kill you they'll have to spend most of their life force on a "shade bomb", and you only die to that if you are standing still.

Not all classes have condi cleanses that can cleanse all types of condis applied by scourge.For example you have been bombed by cripple chill weakness bleed torment burnAnd you have a skill that cleanses 3 condis. And so lucky of you the ones cleansed were cripple chill weakness. Which leaves you to have the damaging conditions. Not only that, in a very short time the same 6 original conditions can be placed up again with little effort.

At least mirage can put up 3 condis ( torment confusion bleeding ) at most times albeit being a fuck ton of stacks at a time. And no, do not do that. You are doing "if he can get away with it, why can't I" argument.

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Majirah.5089

Majirah.5089

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@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"arenta.2953" said:don't forget "they don't have range or mobility. so just range them to death" as if thats actually possible <.<

It is.

@Egorum.9506 said:Why then were there only a handful of scourge in the top 100 last season?Because scourge is mostly a problem for low tier players (which are the majority).

@Egorum.9506 said:You guys know you can easily LoS shades right? or am i breaking the forums with this knowledge? That kitten bugs out all the kitten time, any small obstruction renders them completely unable to attack you, including being on higher groundGood players know this, but often good players don't go to the forums and complain.

Another guy coming here thinking he knows what he's talking about. Top 20 players have literally quit because of the atrocious balance attributed mostly to scourge and firebrand. Why the firebrand pairing with scourge and not any other class though? It's almost like scourge is the biggest threat in the game if left unattended? Surely speaks a lot about their overall power.

But apparently, this AT professional player knows for a fact that scourge isn't a problem. Got it.Not saying it isn't a problem, just saying there's ways to address that problem, and that the problem is blown out of proportion by people that don't even know what their problem actually is (apart that they die a lot).Top 20 players have quit before, and they'll keep on quitting, that doesn't mean its not because of a particular class.Anything that does a lot of damage is dangerous if paired with something that does a lot of healing... It doesn't mean that it's broken, just that it shouldn't be getting that much healing?

Edit:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:1) Actually i'm a scourge main

Nevermind, forget I even took the time to interact with you.Yeah, see that's why no one listens to you.Scourge can, and is often countered, i know this because i've been on the receiving end of it. The fact that most people don't bother trying, and resort to forum wars. "Trying to win on the courts what they can't win on the pitch" doesn't invalidate that there are ways to counter the build.Are there things that need change? Yes, and i've pointed them out a number of times in a number of posts like this that seem to pop out.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon Hunter had this exact same problem. People that wandered happily into DH traps and then complained they were dying too much. And unlike Scourge, DH can chase you all over the place, good luck running away from a guardian class.

Dragon hunter traps could be dodged, cannot be placed at range, do not have functionality that allows them to deal additional damage with no cast or animation after the trap itself went off, does not have charges that allows you to immediately replace it if the first trap failed. Nor did was the dragon hunter able to have a trap go off near itself at the same time it went off where it placed it.

They are different. Sand shades are far far far more powerful. Not to mention the F powers occur around the scourge as well.

I like how everyone thinks that the scourge is this stationary being that cant move or place shades elsewhere, has no barrier, weapon skills, or utility skills. They have all of those on top of their obscene profession mechanic.

If the scourge just stands there, doesn’t move it’s shade, or use any other ability and gets nuked by a glass ranger then it is absolutely awful and would be instagibbed on any other class as well.

All of the bring range, don’t stand in circles, learn to kite arguments all predicate on scourges being brain dead idiots who don’t move, don’t know what their abilities do, and don’t use them. If the scourge is even halfway competent these almighty ranged classes become what they actually are - a liability to their team.

Edit: changed can to can’t in first sentence of 3rd paragrpah. Was a typo in unedited post.

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ReaverKane.7598

ReaverKane.7598

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@Majirah.5089 said:

@"arenta.2953" said:don't forget "they don't have range or mobility. so just range them to death" as if thats actually possible <.<

It is.

@Egorum.9506 said:Why then were there only a handful of scourge in the top 100 last season?Because scourge is mostly a problem for low tier players (which are the majority).

@Egorum.9506 said:You guys know you can easily LoS shades right? or am i breaking the forums with this knowledge? That kitten bugs out all the kitten time, any small obstruction renders them completely unable to attack you, including being on higher groundGood players know this, but often good players don't go to the forums and complain.

Another guy coming here thinking he knows what he's talking about. Top 20 players have literally quit because of the atrocious balance attributed mostly to scourge and firebrand. Why the firebrand pairing with scourge and not any other class though? It's almost like scourge is the biggest threat in the game if left unattended? Surely speaks a lot about their overall power.

But apparently, this AT professional player knows for a fact that scourge isn't a problem. Got it.Not saying it isn't a problem, just saying there's ways to address that problem, and that the problem is blown out of proportion by people that don't even know what their problem actually is (apart that they die a lot).Top 20 players have quit before, and they'll keep on quitting, that doesn't mean its not because of a particular class.Anything that does a lot of damage is dangerous if paired with something that does a lot of healing... It doesn't mean that it's broken, just that it shouldn't be getting that much healing?

Edit:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:1) Actually i'm a scourge main

Nevermind, forget I even took the time to interact with you.Yeah, see that's why no one listens to you.Scourge can, and is often countered, i know this because i've been on the receiving end of it. The fact that most people don't bother trying, and resort to forum wars. "Trying to win on the courts what they can't win on the pitch" doesn't invalidate that there are ways to counter the build.Are there things that need change? Yes, and i've pointed them out a number of times in a number of posts like this that seem to pop out.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon Hunter had this exact same problem. People that wandered happily into DH traps and then complained they were dying too much. And unlike Scourge, DH can chase you all over the place, good luck running away from a guardian class.

Dragon hunter traps could be dodged, cannot be placed at range, do not have functionality that allows them to deal additional damage with no cast or animation after the trap itself went off, does not have charges that allows you to immediately replace it if the first trap failed. Nor did was the dragon hunter able to have a trap go off near itself at the same time it went off where it placed it.

They are different. Sand shades are far far far more powerful. Not to mention the F powers occur around the scourge as well.

I like how everyone thinks that the scourge is this stationary being that can move or place shades elsewhere, has no barrier, weapon skills, or utility skills. They have all of those on top of their obscene profession mechanic.

If the scourge just stands there, doesn’t move it’s shade, or use any other ability and gets nuked by a glass ranger then it is absolutely awful and would be instagibbed on any other class as well.

All of the bring range, don’t stand in circles, learn to kite arguments all predicate on scourges being brain dead idiots who don’t move, don’t know what their abilities do, and don’t use them. If the scourge is even halfway competent these almighty ranged classes become what they actually are - a liability to their team.

I play scourge (and pretty well, if i say so myself), and i know what it can and can't do, and yes, it's not exactly the same as DH, i'm just saying DH had the same sort of reputation for being OP at the lower ranks, while it was pretty much unused at higher ones.And while i agree that there's stuff that needs working on scourge, like the way that shades work, adding a animation/cast time on shade skills for example, reworking them so that people can clear them off points, whatever, just some actual counter that isn't stay away.I'll have to say that otherwise, scourge isn't as broken as people claim. Overall conditions and boons have become a bit ridiculous, and since Scourge takes advantage of both, it seems disproportionately op, but the fault doesn't lie on the class mechanics directly, but the overall state of the game.That's why people can counter it, and quite easily, if it was actually that broken, counters wouldn't exist (like post-HoT Chronomancers for example).

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shadowpass.4236

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@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"arenta.2953" said:don't forget "they don't have range or mobility. so just range them to death" as if thats actually possible <.<

It is.

@Egorum.9506 said:Why then were there only a handful of scourge in the top 100 last season?Because scourge is mostly a problem for low tier players (which are the majority).

@Egorum.9506 said:You guys know you can easily LoS shades right? or am i breaking the forums with this knowledge? That kitten bugs out all the kitten time, any small obstruction renders them completely unable to attack you, including being on higher groundGood players know this, but often good players don't go to the forums and complain.

Another guy coming here thinking he knows what he's talking about. Top 20 players have literally quit because of the atrocious balance attributed mostly to scourge and firebrand. Why the firebrand pairing with scourge and not any other class though? It's almost like scourge is the biggest threat in the game if left unattended? Surely speaks a lot about their overall power.

But apparently, this AT professional player knows for a fact that scourge isn't a problem. Got it.Not saying it isn't a problem, just saying there's ways to address that problem, and that the problem is blown out of proportion by people that don't even know what their problem actually is (apart that they die a lot).Top 20 players have quit before, and they'll keep on quitting, that doesn't mean its not because of a particular class.Anything that does a lot of damage is dangerous if paired with something that does a lot of healing... It doesn't mean that it's broken, just that it shouldn't be getting that much healing?

Edit:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:1) Actually i'm a scourge main

Nevermind, forget I even took the time to interact with you.Yeah, see that's why no one listens to you.Scourge can, and is often countered, i know this because i've been on the receiving end of it. The fact that most people don't bother trying, and resort to forum wars. "Trying to win on the courts what they can't win on the pitch" doesn't invalidate that there are ways to counter the build.Are there things that need change? Yes, and i've pointed them out a number of times in a number of posts like this that seem to pop out.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon Hunter had this exact same problem. People that wandered happily into DH traps and then complained they were dying too much. And unlike Scourge, DH can chase you all over the place, good luck running away from a guardian class.

Dragon hunter traps could be dodged, cannot be placed at range, do not have functionality that allows them to deal additional damage with no cast or animation after the trap itself went off, does not have charges that allows you to immediately replace it if the first trap failed. Nor did was the dragon hunter able to have a trap go off near itself at the same time it went off where it placed it.

They are different. Sand shades are far far far more powerful. Not to mention the F powers occur around the scourge as well.

I like how everyone thinks that the scourge is this stationary being that can move or place shades elsewhere, has no barrier, weapon skills, or utility skills. They have all of those on top of their obscene profession mechanic.

If the scourge just stands there, doesn’t move it’s shade, or use any other ability and gets nuked by a glass ranger then it is absolutely awful and would be instagibbed on any other class as well.

All of the bring range, don’t stand in circles, learn to kite arguments all predicate on scourges being brain dead idiots who don’t move, don’t know what their abilities do, and don’t use them. If the scourge is even halfway competent these almighty ranged classes become what they actually are - a liability to their team.

I play scourge (and pretty well, if i say so myself), and i know what it can and can't do, and yes, it's not
exactly
the same as DH, i'm just saying DH had the same sort of reputation for being OP at the lower ranks, while it was pretty much unused at higher ones.And while i agree that there's stuff that needs working on scourge, like the way that shades work, adding a animation/cast time on shade skills for example, reworking them so that people can clear them off points, whatever, just some actual counter that isn't stay away.I'll have to say that otherwise, scourge isn't as broken as people claim. Overall conditions and boons have become a bit ridiculous, and since Scourge takes advantage of both, it seems disproportionately op, but the fault doesn't lie on the class mechanics directly, but the overall state of the game.That's why people can counter it, and quite easily, if it was actually that broken, counters wouldn't exist (like post-HoT Chronomancers for example).

So DH is similar to Scourge because they are both OP at the lower ranks while being almost unused at the higher ones? Are you kidding me? Literally every single team in every tier has 1-2 Scourges. If you don't have a Scourge, you lose.

Imagine if Dragon Hunter traps could be placed onto you from 900 range, instantly proccing at 1200 range, pulsing 3 times, each applying every single condition in the game while removing your boons and the cooldown was only 6 seconds.

Its fucking overpowered as shit and idc what you say. Literally everyone knows that specs like Scourge, Mirage, and Firebrand are blantantly broken and if they were part of core GW2, they'd literally be able to faceroll a zerg.

Scourge has enough damage output to completely nuke down 10 players on its own, and after 2 hours spent during the beta weekend for PoF, I did just that. Several times. Whatever nerfs it has received have not been enough and the only way for it to ever be balanced is to be completely reworked and almost all of its condition application aspects removed.

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Majirah.5089

Majirah.5089

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@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"arenta.2953" said:don't forget "they don't have range or mobility. so just range them to death" as if thats actually possible <.<

It is.

@Egorum.9506 said:Why then were there only a handful of scourge in the top 100 last season?Because scourge is mostly a problem for low tier players (which are the majority).

@Egorum.9506 said:You guys know you can easily LoS shades right? or am i breaking the forums with this knowledge? That kitten bugs out all the kitten time, any small obstruction renders them completely unable to attack you, including being on higher groundGood players know this, but often good players don't go to the forums and complain.

Another guy coming here thinking he knows what he's talking about. Top 20 players have literally quit because of the atrocious balance attributed mostly to scourge and firebrand. Why the firebrand pairing with scourge and not any other class though? It's almost like scourge is the biggest threat in the game if left unattended? Surely speaks a lot about their overall power.

But apparently, this AT professional player knows for a fact that scourge isn't a problem. Got it.Not saying it isn't a problem, just saying there's ways to address that problem, and that the problem is blown out of proportion by people that don't even know what their problem actually is (apart that they die a lot).Top 20 players have quit before, and they'll keep on quitting, that doesn't mean its not because of a particular class.Anything that does a lot of damage is dangerous if paired with something that does a lot of healing... It doesn't mean that it's broken, just that it shouldn't be getting that much healing?

Edit:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:1) Actually i'm a scourge main

Nevermind, forget I even took the time to interact with you.Yeah, see that's why no one listens to you.Scourge can, and is often countered, i know this because i've been on the receiving end of it. The fact that most people don't bother trying, and resort to forum wars. "Trying to win on the courts what they can't win on the pitch" doesn't invalidate that there are ways to counter the build.Are there things that need change? Yes, and i've pointed them out a number of times in a number of posts like this that seem to pop out.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon Hunter had this exact same problem. People that wandered happily into DH traps and then complained they were dying too much. And unlike Scourge, DH can chase you all over the place, good luck running away from a guardian class.

Dragon hunter traps could be dodged, cannot be placed at range, do not have functionality that allows them to deal additional damage with no cast or animation after the trap itself went off, does not have charges that allows you to immediately replace it if the first trap failed. Nor did was the dragon hunter able to have a trap go off near itself at the same time it went off where it placed it.

They are different. Sand shades are far far far more powerful. Not to mention the F powers occur around the scourge as well.

I like how everyone thinks that the scourge is this stationary being that can move or place shades elsewhere, has no barrier, weapon skills, or utility skills. They have all of those on top of their obscene profession mechanic.

If the scourge just stands there, doesn’t move it’s shade, or use any other ability and gets nuked by a glass ranger then it is absolutely awful and would be instagibbed on any other class as well.

All of the bring range, don’t stand in circles, learn to kite arguments all predicate on scourges being brain dead idiots who don’t move, don’t know what their abilities do, and don’t use them. If the scourge is even halfway competent these almighty ranged classes become what they actually are - a liability to their team.

I play scourge (and pretty well, if i say so myself), and i know what it can and can't do, and yes, it's not
exactly
the same as DH, i'm just saying DH had the same sort of reputation for being OP at the lower ranks, while it was pretty much unused at higher ones.And while i agree that there's stuff that needs working on scourge, like the way that shades work, adding a animation/cast time on shade skills for example, reworking them so that people can clear them off points, whatever, just some actual counter that isn't stay away.I'll have to say that otherwise, scourge isn't as broken as people claim. Overall conditions and boons have become a bit ridiculous, and since Scourge takes advantage of both, it seems disproportionately op, but the fault doesn't lie on the class mechanics directly, but the overall state of the game.That's why people can counter it, and quite easily, if it was actually that broken, counters wouldn't exist (like post-HoT Chronomancers for example).

I don’t want scourge to be nuked. I want it to remain viable, but the way it’s designed it is difficult for it to remain viable without being op. Many suggestions would outright destroy scourge, which would make many people happy. But something has to change. I agree adding cast times and animations to the F skills would go a long way. I also personally don’t like the corruption mechanic. I think boon stripping as opposed to corruption is a lot better mechanic. Ease of aoe corruption is one of the things that is so dumb about scourge.

Either way I do believe the complaints about scourge are justified. Wanting to tar and feather scourge probably isn’t. But something has to change.

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arenta.2953

arenta.2953

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@Majirah.5089 said:

@"arenta.2953" said:don't forget "they don't have range or mobility. so just range them to death" as if thats actually possible <.<

It is.

@Egorum.9506 said:Why then were there only a handful of scourge in the top 100 last season?Because scourge is mostly a problem for low tier players (which are the majority).

@Egorum.9506 said:You guys know you can easily LoS shades right? or am i breaking the forums with this knowledge? That kitten bugs out all the kitten time, any small obstruction renders them completely unable to attack you, including being on higher groundGood players know this, but often good players don't go to the forums and complain.

Another guy coming here thinking he knows what he's talking about. Top 20 players have literally quit because of the atrocious balance attributed mostly to scourge and firebrand. Why the firebrand pairing with scourge and not any other class though? It's almost like scourge is the biggest threat in the game if left unattended? Surely speaks a lot about their overall power.

But apparently, this AT professional player knows for a fact that scourge isn't a problem. Got it.Not saying it isn't a problem, just saying there's ways to address that problem, and that the problem is blown out of proportion by people that don't even know what their problem actually is (apart that they die a lot).Top 20 players have quit before, and they'll keep on quitting, that doesn't mean its not because of a particular class.Anything that does a lot of damage is dangerous if paired with something that does a lot of healing... It doesn't mean that it's broken, just that it shouldn't be getting that much healing?

Edit:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:1) Actually i'm a scourge main

Nevermind, forget I even took the time to interact with you.Yeah, see that's why no one listens to you.Scourge can, and is often countered, i know this because i've been on the receiving end of it. The fact that most people don't bother trying, and resort to forum wars. "Trying to win on the courts what they can't win on the pitch" doesn't invalidate that there are ways to counter the build.Are there things that need change? Yes, and i've pointed them out a number of times in a number of posts like this that seem to pop out.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon Hunter had this exact same problem. People that wandered happily into DH traps and then complained they were dying too much. And unlike Scourge, DH can chase you all over the place, good luck running away from a guardian class.

Dragon hunter traps could be dodged, cannot be placed at range, do not have functionality that allows them to deal additional damage with no cast or animation after the trap itself went off, does not have charges that allows you to immediately replace it if the first trap failed. Nor did was the dragon hunter able to have a trap go off near itself at the same time it went off where it placed it.

They are different. Sand shades are far far far more powerful. Not to mention the F powers occur around the scourge as well.

I like how everyone thinks that the scourge is this stationary being that can move or place shades elsewhere, has no barrier, weapon skills, or utility skills. They have all of those on top of their obscene profession mechanic.

If the scourge just stands there, doesn’t move it’s shade, or use any other ability and gets nuked by a glass ranger then it is absolutely awful and would be instagibbed on any other class as well.

All of the bring range, don’t stand in circles, learn to kite arguments all predicate on scourges being brain dead idiots who don’t move, don’t know what their abilities do, and don’t use them. If the scourge is even halfway competent these almighty ranged classes become what they actually are - a liability to their team.

I play scourge (and pretty well, if i say so myself), and i know what it can and can't do, and yes, it's not
exactly
the same as DH, i'm just saying DH had the same sort of reputation for being OP at the lower ranks, while it was pretty much unused at higher ones.And while i agree that there's stuff that needs working on scourge, like the way that shades work, adding a animation/cast time on shade skills for example, reworking them so that people can clear them off points, whatever, just some actual counter that isn't stay away.I'll have to say that otherwise, scourge isn't as broken as people claim. Overall conditions and boons have become a bit ridiculous, and since Scourge takes advantage of both, it seems disproportionately op, but the fault doesn't lie on the class mechanics directly, but the overall state of the game.That's why people can counter it, and quite easily, if it was actually that broken, counters wouldn't exist (like post-HoT Chronomancers for example).

I don’t want scourge to be nuked. I want it to remain viable, but the way it’s designed it is difficult for it to remain viable without being op. Many suggestions would outright destroy scourge, which would make many people happy. But something has to change. I agree adding cast times and animations to the F skills would go a long way. I also personally don’t like the corruption mechanic. I think boon stripping as opposed to corruption is a lot better mechanic. Ease of aoe corruption is one of the things that is so dumb about scourge.

Either way I do believe the complaints about scourge are justified. Wanting to tar and feather scourge probably isn’t. But something has to change.

just make it so some stat like healing power (so little used) reduces condition dmg like armor does.or a stat like expertise (i'd say toughness...but that might be a bit overkill....not sure up for debate)

and the 2nd chance, nerf the skills that turn boons into torment and cripple, from 10 sec torment, down to (lets say 20% to 30% to be conservative) as most builds for it focus on maximizing the condition time and dmg. so reducing the base time wont destroy the skill, but it will cool it down.

or we could focus on giving more condition cleanse skills to classes that lack them (ironically....including necro)

personally, i think giving a stat the ability to reduce condition dmg (like toughness and armor does to physcial) will fix everything...provided its a stat people don't spam with already. which is why healing power is a nice option(how many builds do you see with it)

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Majirah.5089

Majirah.5089

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@arenta.2953 said:

@arenta.2953 said:don't forget "they don't have range or mobility. so just range them to death" as if thats actually possible <.<

It is.

@Egorum.9506 said:Why then were there only a handful of scourge in the top 100 last season?Because scourge is mostly a problem for low tier players (which are the majority).

@Egorum.9506 said:You guys know you can easily LoS shades right? or am i breaking the forums with this knowledge? That kitten bugs out all the kitten time, any small obstruction renders them completely unable to attack you, including being on higher groundGood players know this, but often good players don't go to the forums and complain.

Another guy coming here thinking he knows what he's talking about. Top 20 players have literally quit because of the atrocious balance attributed mostly to scourge and firebrand. Why the firebrand pairing with scourge and not any other class though? It's almost like scourge is the biggest threat in the game if left unattended? Surely speaks a lot about their overall power.

But apparently, this AT professional player knows for a fact that scourge isn't a problem. Got it.Not saying it isn't a problem, just saying there's ways to address that problem, and that the problem is blown out of proportion by people that don't even know what their problem actually is (apart that they die a lot).Top 20 players have quit before, and they'll keep on quitting, that doesn't mean its not because of a particular class.Anything that does a lot of damage is dangerous if paired with something that does a lot of healing... It doesn't mean that it's broken, just that it shouldn't be getting that much healing?

Edit:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:1) Actually i'm a scourge main

Nevermind, forget I even took the time to interact with you.Yeah, see that's why no one listens to you.Scourge can, and is often countered, i know this because i've been on the receiving end of it. The fact that most people don't bother trying, and resort to forum wars. "Trying to win on the courts what they can't win on the pitch" doesn't invalidate that there are ways to counter the build.Are there things that need change? Yes, and i've pointed them out a number of times in a number of posts like this that seem to pop out.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon Hunter had this exact same problem. People that wandered happily into DH traps and then complained they were dying too much. And unlike Scourge, DH can chase you all over the place, good luck running away from a guardian class.

Dragon hunter traps could be dodged, cannot be placed at range, do not have functionality that allows them to deal additional damage with no cast or animation after the trap itself went off, does not have charges that allows you to immediately replace it if the first trap failed. Nor did was the dragon hunter able to have a trap go off near itself at the same time it went off where it placed it.

They are different. Sand shades are far far far more powerful. Not to mention the F powers occur around the scourge as well.

I like how everyone thinks that the scourge is this stationary being that can move or place shades elsewhere, has no barrier, weapon skills, or utility skills. They have all of those on top of their obscene profession mechanic.

If the scourge just stands there, doesn’t move it’s shade, or use any other ability and gets nuked by a glass ranger then it is absolutely awful and would be instagibbed on any other class as well.

All of the bring range, don’t stand in circles, learn to kite arguments all predicate on scourges being brain dead idiots who don’t move, don’t know what their abilities do, and don’t use them. If the scourge is even halfway competent these almighty ranged classes become what they actually are - a liability to their team.

I play scourge (and pretty well, if i say so myself), and i know what it can and can't do, and yes, it's not
exactly
the same as DH, i'm just saying DH had the same sort of reputation for being OP at the lower ranks, while it was pretty much unused at higher ones.And while i agree that there's stuff that needs working on scourge, like the way that shades work, adding a animation/cast time on shade skills for example, reworking them so that people can clear them off points, whatever, just some actual counter that isn't stay away.I'll have to say that otherwise, scourge isn't as broken as people claim. Overall conditions and boons have become a bit ridiculous, and since Scourge takes advantage of both, it seems disproportionately op, but the fault doesn't lie on the class mechanics directly, but the overall state of the game.That's why people can counter it, and quite easily, if it was actually that broken, counters wouldn't exist (like post-HoT Chronomancers for example).

I don’t want scourge to be nuked. I want it to remain viable, but the way it’s designed it is difficult for it to remain viable without being op. Many suggestions would outright destroy scourge, which would make many people happy. But something has to change. I agree adding cast times and animations to the F skills would go a long way. I also personally don’t like the corruption mechanic. I think boon stripping as opposed to corruption is a lot better mechanic. Ease of aoe corruption is one of the things that is so dumb about scourge.

Either way I do believe the complaints about scourge are justified. Wanting to tar and feather scourge probably isn’t. But something has to change.

just make it so some stat like healing power (so little used) reduces condition dmg like armor does.or a stat like expertise (i'd say toughness...but that might be a bit overkill....not sure up for debate)

and the 2nd chance, nerf the skills that turn boons into torment and cripple, from 10 sec torment, down to (lets say 20% to 30% to be conservative) as most builds for it focus on maximizing the condition time and dmg. so reducing the base time wont destroy the skill, but it will cool it down.

or we could focus on giving more condition cleanse skills to classes that lack them (ironically....including necro)

personally, i think giving a stat the ability to reduce condition dmg (like toughness and armor does to physcial) will fix everything...provided its a stat people don't spam with already. which is why healing power is a nice option(how many builds do you see with it)

This would affect all condition builds though. Not just problem ones like scourge or mirage. Scourge needs targeted adjustments that bring it down in relation to other classes. A flat condition nerf via stats really wouldnt fix it in relation to other classes.

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arenta.2953

arenta.2953

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@Majirah.5089 said:

@arenta.2953 said:don't forget "they don't have range or mobility. so just range them to death" as if thats actually possible <.<

It is.

@Egorum.9506 said:Why then were there only a handful of scourge in the top 100 last season?Because scourge is mostly a problem for low tier players (which are the majority).

@Egorum.9506 said:You guys know you can easily LoS shades right? or am i breaking the forums with this knowledge? That kitten bugs out all the kitten time, any small obstruction renders them completely unable to attack you, including being on higher groundGood players know this, but often good players don't go to the forums and complain.

Another guy coming here thinking he knows what he's talking about. Top 20 players have literally quit because of the atrocious balance attributed mostly to scourge and firebrand. Why the firebrand pairing with scourge and not any other class though? It's almost like scourge is the biggest threat in the game if left unattended? Surely speaks a lot about their overall power.

But apparently, this AT professional player knows for a fact that scourge isn't a problem. Got it.Not saying it isn't a problem, just saying there's ways to address that problem, and that the problem is blown out of proportion by people that don't even know what their problem actually is (apart that they die a lot).Top 20 players have quit before, and they'll keep on quitting, that doesn't mean its not because of a particular class.Anything that does a lot of damage is dangerous if paired with something that does a lot of healing... It doesn't mean that it's broken, just that it shouldn't be getting that much healing?

Edit:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:1) Actually i'm a scourge main

Nevermind, forget I even took the time to interact with you.Yeah, see that's why no one listens to you.Scourge can, and is often countered, i know this because i've been on the receiving end of it. The fact that most people don't bother trying, and resort to forum wars. "Trying to win on the courts what they can't win on the pitch" doesn't invalidate that there are ways to counter the build.Are there things that need change? Yes, and i've pointed them out a number of times in a number of posts like this that seem to pop out.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon Hunter had this exact same problem. People that wandered happily into DH traps and then complained they were dying too much. And unlike Scourge, DH can chase you all over the place, good luck running away from a guardian class.

Dragon hunter traps could be dodged, cannot be placed at range, do not have functionality that allows them to deal additional damage with no cast or animation after the trap itself went off, does not have charges that allows you to immediately replace it if the first trap failed. Nor did was the dragon hunter able to have a trap go off near itself at the same time it went off where it placed it.

They are different. Sand shades are far far far more powerful. Not to mention the F powers occur around the scourge as well.

I like how everyone thinks that the scourge is this stationary being that can move or place shades elsewhere, has no barrier, weapon skills, or utility skills. They have all of those on top of their obscene profession mechanic.

If the scourge just stands there, doesn’t move it’s shade, or use any other ability and gets nuked by a glass ranger then it is absolutely awful and would be instagibbed on any other class as well.

All of the bring range, don’t stand in circles, learn to kite arguments all predicate on scourges being brain dead idiots who don’t move, don’t know what their abilities do, and don’t use them. If the scourge is even halfway competent these almighty ranged classes become what they actually are - a liability to their team.

I play scourge (and pretty well, if i say so myself), and i know what it can and can't do, and yes, it's not
exactly
the same as DH, i'm just saying DH had the same sort of reputation for being OP at the lower ranks, while it was pretty much unused at higher ones.And while i agree that there's stuff that needs working on scourge, like the way that shades work, adding a animation/cast time on shade skills for example, reworking them so that people can clear them off points, whatever, just some actual counter that isn't stay away.I'll have to say that otherwise, scourge isn't as broken as people claim. Overall conditions and boons have become a bit ridiculous, and since Scourge takes advantage of both, it seems disproportionately op, but the fault doesn't lie on the class mechanics directly, but the overall state of the game.That's why people can counter it, and quite easily, if it was actually that broken, counters wouldn't exist (like post-HoT Chronomancers for example).

I don’t want scourge to be nuked. I want it to remain viable, but the way it’s designed it is difficult for it to remain viable without being op. Many suggestions would outright destroy scourge, which would make many people happy. But something has to change. I agree adding cast times and animations to the F skills would go a long way. I also personally don’t like the corruption mechanic. I think boon stripping as opposed to corruption is a lot better mechanic. Ease of aoe corruption is one of the things that is so dumb about scourge.

Either way I do believe the complaints about scourge are justified. Wanting to tar and feather scourge probably isn’t. But something has to change.

just make it so some stat like healing power (so little used) reduces condition dmg like armor does.or a stat like expertise (i'd say toughness...but that might be a bit overkill....not sure up for debate)

and the 2nd chance, nerf the skills that turn boons into torment and cripple, from 10 sec torment, down to (lets say 20% to 30% to be conservative) as most builds for it focus on maximizing the condition time and dmg. so reducing the base time wont destroy the skill, but it will cool it down.

or we could focus on giving more condition cleanse skills to classes that lack them (ironically....including necro)

personally, i think giving a stat the ability to reduce condition dmg (like toughness and armor does to physcial) will fix everything...provided its a stat people don't spam with already. which is why healing power is a nice option(how many builds do you see with it)

This would affect all condition builds though. Not just problem ones like scourge or mirage. Scourge needs targeted adjustments that bring it down in relation to other classes. A flat condition nerf via stats really wouldnt fix it in relation to other classes.

which is why i said a little used stat. if you go for that stat, you'll have to give up toughness ,vit, power, or condition.

healing power isn't very forgiving in what stat combos it has

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Majirah.5089

Majirah.5089

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@arenta.2953 said:

@arenta.2953 said:don't forget "they don't have range or mobility. so just range them to death" as if thats actually possible <.<

It is.

@Egorum.9506 said:Why then were there only a handful of scourge in the top 100 last season?Because scourge is mostly a problem for low tier players (which are the majority).

@Egorum.9506 said:You guys know you can easily LoS shades right? or am i breaking the forums with this knowledge? That kitten bugs out all the kitten time, any small obstruction renders them completely unable to attack you, including being on higher groundGood players know this, but often good players don't go to the forums and complain.

Another guy coming here thinking he knows what he's talking about. Top 20 players have literally quit because of the atrocious balance attributed mostly to scourge and firebrand. Why the firebrand pairing with scourge and not any other class though? It's almost like scourge is the biggest threat in the game if left unattended? Surely speaks a lot about their overall power.

But apparently, this AT professional player knows for a fact that scourge isn't a problem. Got it.Not saying it isn't a problem, just saying there's ways to address that problem, and that the problem is blown out of proportion by people that don't even know what their problem actually is (apart that they die a lot).Top 20 players have quit before, and they'll keep on quitting, that doesn't mean its not because of a particular class.Anything that does a lot of damage is dangerous if paired with something that does a lot of healing... It doesn't mean that it's broken, just that it shouldn't be getting that much healing?

Edit:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:1) Actually i'm a scourge main

Nevermind, forget I even took the time to interact with you.Yeah, see that's why no one listens to you.Scourge can, and is often countered, i know this because i've been on the receiving end of it. The fact that most people don't bother trying, and resort to forum wars. "Trying to win on the courts what they can't win on the pitch" doesn't invalidate that there are ways to counter the build.Are there things that need change? Yes, and i've pointed them out a number of times in a number of posts like this that seem to pop out.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon Hunter had this exact same problem. People that wandered happily into DH traps and then complained they were dying too much. And unlike Scourge, DH can chase you all over the place, good luck running away from a guardian class.

Dragon hunter traps could be dodged, cannot be placed at range, do not have functionality that allows them to deal additional damage with no cast or animation after the trap itself went off, does not have charges that allows you to immediately replace it if the first trap failed. Nor did was the dragon hunter able to have a trap go off near itself at the same time it went off where it placed it.

They are different. Sand shades are far far far more powerful. Not to mention the F powers occur around the scourge as well.

I like how everyone thinks that the scourge is this stationary being that can move or place shades elsewhere, has no barrier, weapon skills, or utility skills. They have all of those on top of their obscene profession mechanic.

If the scourge just stands there, doesn’t move it’s shade, or use any other ability and gets nuked by a glass ranger then it is absolutely awful and would be instagibbed on any other class as well.

All of the bring range, don’t stand in circles, learn to kite arguments all predicate on scourges being brain dead idiots who don’t move, don’t know what their abilities do, and don’t use them. If the scourge is even halfway competent these almighty ranged classes become what they actually are - a liability to their team.

I play scourge (and pretty well, if i say so myself), and i know what it can and can't do, and yes, it's not
exactly
the same as DH, i'm just saying DH had the same sort of reputation for being OP at the lower ranks, while it was pretty much unused at higher ones.And while i agree that there's stuff that needs working on scourge, like the way that shades work, adding a animation/cast time on shade skills for example, reworking them so that people can clear them off points, whatever, just some actual counter that isn't stay away.I'll have to say that otherwise, scourge isn't as broken as people claim. Overall conditions and boons have become a bit ridiculous, and since Scourge takes advantage of both, it seems disproportionately op, but the fault doesn't lie on the class mechanics directly, but the overall state of the game.That's why people can counter it, and quite easily, if it was actually that broken, counters wouldn't exist (like post-HoT Chronomancers for example).

I don’t want scourge to be nuked. I want it to remain viable, but the way it’s designed it is difficult for it to remain viable without being op. Many suggestions would outright destroy scourge, which would make many people happy. But something has to change. I agree adding cast times and animations to the F skills would go a long way. I also personally don’t like the corruption mechanic. I think boon stripping as opposed to corruption is a lot better mechanic. Ease of aoe corruption is one of the things that is so dumb about scourge.

Either way I do believe the complaints about scourge are justified. Wanting to tar and feather scourge probably isn’t. But something has to change.

just make it so some stat like healing power (so little used) reduces condition dmg like armor does.or a stat like expertise (i'd say toughness...but that might be a bit overkill....not sure up for debate)

and the 2nd chance, nerf the skills that turn boons into torment and cripple, from 10 sec torment, down to (lets say 20% to 30% to be conservative) as most builds for it focus on maximizing the condition time and dmg. so reducing the base time wont destroy the skill, but it will cool it down.

or we could focus on giving more condition cleanse skills to classes that lack them (ironically....including necro)

personally, i think giving a stat the ability to reduce condition dmg (like toughness and armor does to physcial) will fix everything...provided its a stat people don't spam with already. which is why healing power is a nice option(how many builds do you see with it)

This would affect all condition builds though. Not just problem ones like scourge or mirage. Scourge needs targeted adjustments that bring it down in relation to other classes. A flat condition nerf via stats really wouldnt fix it in relation to other classes.

which is why i said a little used stat. if you go for that stat, you'll have to give up toughness ,vit, power, or condition.

healing power isn't very forgiving in what stat combos it has

This would also likely affect all builds because they would go for that stat just to defend themselves against scourge. They would likely become either less offensively or less defensively powerful as a result of giving up their normal stat to get the stat that would defend against scourge. Meanwhile scourge wouldn’t have to change anything. Nerfing scourge by potentially nerfing all others wanting to defend themselves against it doesn’t really make sense.

Scourge itself is a problem. Therefore scourge is the thing that needs changed.

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ReaverKane.7598

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@Majirah.5089 said:

@arenta.2953 said:don't forget "they don't have range or mobility. so just range them to death" as if thats actually possible <.<

It is.

@Egorum.9506 said:Why then were there only a handful of scourge in the top 100 last season?Because scourge is mostly a problem for low tier players (which are the majority).

@Egorum.9506 said:You guys know you can easily LoS shades right? or am i breaking the forums with this knowledge? That kitten bugs out all the kitten time, any small obstruction renders them completely unable to attack you, including being on higher groundGood players know this, but often good players don't go to the forums and complain.

Another guy coming here thinking he knows what he's talking about. Top 20 players have literally quit because of the atrocious balance attributed mostly to scourge and firebrand. Why the firebrand pairing with scourge and not any other class though? It's almost like scourge is the biggest threat in the game if left unattended? Surely speaks a lot about their overall power.

But apparently, this AT professional player knows for a fact that scourge isn't a problem. Got it.Not saying it isn't a problem, just saying there's ways to address that problem, and that the problem is blown out of proportion by people that don't even know what their problem actually is (apart that they die a lot).Top 20 players have quit before, and they'll keep on quitting, that doesn't mean its not because of a particular class.Anything that does a lot of damage is dangerous if paired with something that does a lot of healing... It doesn't mean that it's broken, just that it shouldn't be getting that much healing?

Edit:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:1) Actually i'm a scourge main

Nevermind, forget I even took the time to interact with you.Yeah, see that's why no one listens to you.Scourge can, and is often countered, i know this because i've been on the receiving end of it. The fact that most people don't bother trying, and resort to forum wars. "Trying to win on the courts what they can't win on the pitch" doesn't invalidate that there are ways to counter the build.Are there things that need change? Yes, and i've pointed them out a number of times in a number of posts like this that seem to pop out.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon Hunter had this exact same problem. People that wandered happily into DH traps and then complained they were dying too much. And unlike Scourge, DH can chase you all over the place, good luck running away from a guardian class.

Dragon hunter traps could be dodged, cannot be placed at range, do not have functionality that allows them to deal additional damage with no cast or animation after the trap itself went off, does not have charges that allows you to immediately replace it if the first trap failed. Nor did was the dragon hunter able to have a trap go off near itself at the same time it went off where it placed it.

They are different. Sand shades are far far far more powerful. Not to mention the F powers occur around the scourge as well.

I like how everyone thinks that the scourge is this stationary being that can move or place shades elsewhere, has no barrier, weapon skills, or utility skills. They have all of those on top of their obscene profession mechanic.

If the scourge just stands there, doesn’t move it’s shade, or use any other ability and gets nuked by a glass ranger then it is absolutely awful and would be instagibbed on any other class as well.

All of the bring range, don’t stand in circles, learn to kite arguments all predicate on scourges being brain dead idiots who don’t move, don’t know what their abilities do, and don’t use them. If the scourge is even halfway competent these almighty ranged classes become what they actually are - a liability to their team.

I play scourge (and pretty well, if i say so myself), and i know what it can and can't do, and yes, it's not
exactly
the same as DH, i'm just saying DH had the same sort of reputation for being OP at the lower ranks, while it was pretty much unused at higher ones.And while i agree that there's stuff that needs working on scourge, like the way that shades work, adding a animation/cast time on shade skills for example, reworking them so that people can clear them off points, whatever, just some actual counter that isn't stay away.I'll have to say that otherwise, scourge isn't as broken as people claim. Overall conditions and boons have become a bit ridiculous, and since Scourge takes advantage of both, it seems disproportionately op, but the fault doesn't lie on the class mechanics directly, but the overall state of the game.That's why people can counter it, and quite easily, if it was actually that broken, counters wouldn't exist (like post-HoT Chronomancers for example).

I don’t want scourge to be nuked. I want it to remain viable, but the way it’s designed it is difficult for it to remain viable without being op. Many suggestions would outright destroy scourge, which would make many people happy. But something has to change. I agree adding cast times and animations to the F skills would go a long way. I also personally don’t like the corruption mechanic. I think boon stripping as opposed to corruption is a lot better mechanic. Ease of aoe corruption is one of the things that is so dumb about scourge.

Either way I do believe the complaints about scourge are justified. Wanting to tar and feather scourge probably isn’t. But something has to change.

just make it so some stat like healing power (so little used) reduces condition dmg like armor does.or a stat like expertise (i'd say toughness...but that might be a bit overkill....not sure up for debate)

and the 2nd chance, nerf the skills that turn boons into torment and cripple, from 10 sec torment, down to (lets say 20% to 30% to be conservative) as most builds for it focus on maximizing the condition time and dmg. so reducing the base time wont destroy the skill, but it will cool it down.

or we could focus on giving more condition cleanse skills to classes that lack them (ironically....including necro)

personally, i think giving a stat the ability to reduce condition dmg (like toughness and armor does to physcial) will fix everything...provided its a stat people don't spam with already. which is why healing power is a nice option(how many builds do you see with it)

This would affect all condition builds though. Not just problem ones like scourge or mirage. Scourge needs targeted adjustments that bring it down in relation to other classes. A flat condition nerf via stats really wouldnt fix it in relation to other classes.

which is why i said a little used stat. if you go for that stat, you'll have to give up toughness ,vit, power, or condition.

healing power isn't very forgiving in what stat combos it has

This would also likely affect all builds because they would go for that stat just to defend themselves against scourge. They would likely become either less offensively or less defensively powerful as a result of giving up their normal stat to get the stat that would defend against scourge. Meanwhile scourge wouldn’t have to change anything. Nerfing scourge by potentially nerfing all others wanting to defend themselves against it doesn’t really make sense.

Scourge itself is a problem. Therefore scourge is the thing that needs changed.

But scourge by itself isn't a problem. If you don't run around with 25 stacks of might plus fury, quickness, retaliation, protection, etc Scourge has the same, or less condi potential than Renegade of example.The problem is excess boon availability being punished too hard because condis are too strong.Which is why i think the solution they seem to be pushing for (revising the corruption tables) might be enough to level it out, if they also address the lack of counter play for shades it will probably make it just right.

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arenta.2953

arenta.2953

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@Majirah.5089 said:

@arenta.2953 said:don't forget "they don't have range or mobility. so just range them to death" as if thats actually possible <.<

It is.

@Egorum.9506 said:Why then were there only a handful of scourge in the top 100 last season?Because scourge is mostly a problem for low tier players (which are the majority).

@Egorum.9506 said:You guys know you can easily LoS shades right? or am i breaking the forums with this knowledge? That kitten bugs out all the kitten time, any small obstruction renders them completely unable to attack you, including being on higher groundGood players know this, but often good players don't go to the forums and complain.

Another guy coming here thinking he knows what he's talking about. Top 20 players have literally quit because of the atrocious balance attributed mostly to scourge and firebrand. Why the firebrand pairing with scourge and not any other class though? It's almost like scourge is the biggest threat in the game if left unattended? Surely speaks a lot about their overall power.

But apparently, this AT professional player knows for a fact that scourge isn't a problem. Got it.Not saying it isn't a problem, just saying there's ways to address that problem, and that the problem is blown out of proportion by people that don't even know what their problem actually is (apart that they die a lot).Top 20 players have quit before, and they'll keep on quitting, that doesn't mean its not because of a particular class.Anything that does a lot of damage is dangerous if paired with something that does a lot of healing... It doesn't mean that it's broken, just that it shouldn't be getting that much healing?

Edit:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:1) Actually i'm a scourge main

Nevermind, forget I even took the time to interact with you.Yeah, see that's why no one listens to you.Scourge can, and is often countered, i know this because i've been on the receiving end of it. The fact that most people don't bother trying, and resort to forum wars. "Trying to win on the courts what they can't win on the pitch" doesn't invalidate that there are ways to counter the build.Are there things that need change? Yes, and i've pointed them out a number of times in a number of posts like this that seem to pop out.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon Hunter had this exact same problem. People that wandered happily into DH traps and then complained they were dying too much. And unlike Scourge, DH can chase you all over the place, good luck running away from a guardian class.

Dragon hunter traps could be dodged, cannot be placed at range, do not have functionality that allows them to deal additional damage with no cast or animation after the trap itself went off, does not have charges that allows you to immediately replace it if the first trap failed. Nor did was the dragon hunter able to have a trap go off near itself at the same time it went off where it placed it.

They are different. Sand shades are far far far more powerful. Not to mention the F powers occur around the scourge as well.

I like how everyone thinks that the scourge is this stationary being that can move or place shades elsewhere, has no barrier, weapon skills, or utility skills. They have all of those on top of their obscene profession mechanic.

If the scourge just stands there, doesn’t move it’s shade, or use any other ability and gets nuked by a glass ranger then it is absolutely awful and would be instagibbed on any other class as well.

All of the bring range, don’t stand in circles, learn to kite arguments all predicate on scourges being brain dead idiots who don’t move, don’t know what their abilities do, and don’t use them. If the scourge is even halfway competent these almighty ranged classes become what they actually are - a liability to their team.

I play scourge (and pretty well, if i say so myself), and i know what it can and can't do, and yes, it's not
exactly
the same as DH, i'm just saying DH had the same sort of reputation for being OP at the lower ranks, while it was pretty much unused at higher ones.And while i agree that there's stuff that needs working on scourge, like the way that shades work, adding a animation/cast time on shade skills for example, reworking them so that people can clear them off points, whatever, just some actual counter that isn't stay away.I'll have to say that otherwise, scourge isn't as broken as people claim. Overall conditions and boons have become a bit ridiculous, and since Scourge takes advantage of both, it seems disproportionately op, but the fault doesn't lie on the class mechanics directly, but the overall state of the game.That's why people can counter it, and quite easily, if it was actually that broken, counters wouldn't exist (like post-HoT Chronomancers for example).

I don’t want scourge to be nuked. I want it to remain viable, but the way it’s designed it is difficult for it to remain viable without being op. Many suggestions would outright destroy scourge, which would make many people happy. But something has to change. I agree adding cast times and animations to the F skills would go a long way. I also personally don’t like the corruption mechanic. I think boon stripping as opposed to corruption is a lot better mechanic. Ease of aoe corruption is one of the things that is so dumb about scourge.

Either way I do believe the complaints about scourge are justified. Wanting to tar and feather scourge probably isn’t. But something has to change.

just make it so some stat like healing power (so little used) reduces condition dmg like armor does.or a stat like expertise (i'd say toughness...but that might be a bit overkill....not sure up for debate)

and the 2nd chance, nerf the skills that turn boons into torment and cripple, from 10 sec torment, down to (lets say 20% to 30% to be conservative) as most builds for it focus on maximizing the condition time and dmg. so reducing the base time wont destroy the skill, but it will cool it down.

or we could focus on giving more condition cleanse skills to classes that lack them (ironically....including necro)

personally, i think giving a stat the ability to reduce condition dmg (like toughness and armor does to physcial) will fix everything...provided its a stat people don't spam with already. which is why healing power is a nice option(how many builds do you see with it)

This would affect all condition builds though. Not just problem ones like scourge or mirage. Scourge needs targeted adjustments that bring it down in relation to other classes. A flat condition nerf via stats really wouldnt fix it in relation to other classes.

which is why i said a little used stat. if you go for that stat, you'll have to give up toughness ,vit, power, or condition.

healing power isn't very forgiving in what stat combos it has

This would also likely affect all builds because they would go for that stat just to defend themselves against scourge. They would likely become either less offensively or less defensively powerful as a result of giving up their normal stat to get the stat that would defend against scourge. Meanwhile scourge wouldn’t have to change anything. Nerfing scourge by potentially nerfing all others wanting to defend themselves against it doesn’t really make sense.

Scourge itself is a problem. Therefore scourge is the thing that needs changed.

@arenta.2953 said:don't forget "they don't have range or mobility. so just range them to death" as if thats actually possible <.<

It is.

@Egorum.9506 said:Why then were there only a handful of scourge in the top 100 last season?Because scourge is mostly a problem for low tier players (which are the majority).

@Egorum.9506 said:You guys know you can easily LoS shades right? or am i breaking the forums with this knowledge? That kitten bugs out all the kitten time, any small obstruction renders them completely unable to attack you, including being on higher groundGood players know this, but often good players don't go to the forums and complain.

Another guy coming here thinking he knows what he's talking about. Top 20 players have literally quit because of the atrocious balance attributed mostly to scourge and firebrand. Why the firebrand pairing with scourge and not any other class though? It's almost like scourge is the biggest threat in the game if left unattended? Surely speaks a lot about their overall power.

But apparently, this AT professional player knows for a fact that scourge isn't a problem. Got it.Not saying it isn't a problem, just saying there's ways to address that problem, and that the problem is blown out of proportion by people that don't even know what their problem actually is (apart that they die a lot).Top 20 players have quit before, and they'll keep on quitting, that doesn't mean its not because of a particular class.Anything that does a lot of damage is dangerous if paired with something that does a lot of healing... It doesn't mean that it's broken, just that it shouldn't be getting that much healing?

Edit:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:1) Actually i'm a scourge main

Nevermind, forget I even took the time to interact with you.Yeah, see that's why no one listens to you.Scourge can, and is often countered, i know this because i've been on the receiving end of it. The fact that most people don't bother trying, and resort to forum wars. "Trying to win on the courts what they can't win on the pitch" doesn't invalidate that there are ways to counter the build.Are there things that need change? Yes, and i've pointed them out a number of times in a number of posts like this that seem to pop out.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon Hunter had this exact same problem. People that wandered happily into DH traps and then complained they were dying too much. And unlike Scourge, DH can chase you all over the place, good luck running away from a guardian class.

Dragon hunter traps could be dodged, cannot be placed at range, do not have functionality that allows them to deal additional damage with no cast or animation after the trap itself went off, does not have charges that allows you to immediately replace it if the first trap failed. Nor did was the dragon hunter able to have a trap go off near itself at the same time it went off where it placed it.

They are different. Sand shades are far far far more powerful. Not to mention the F powers occur around the scourge as well.

I like how everyone thinks that the scourge is this stationary being that can move or place shades elsewhere, has no barrier, weapon skills, or utility skills. They have all of those on top of their obscene profession mechanic.

If the scourge just stands there, doesn’t move it’s shade, or use any other ability and gets nuked by a glass ranger then it is absolutely awful and would be instagibbed on any other class as well.

All of the bring range, don’t stand in circles, learn to kite arguments all predicate on scourges being brain dead idiots who don’t move, don’t know what their abilities do, and don’t use them. If the scourge is even halfway competent these almighty ranged classes become what they actually are - a liability to their team.

I play scourge (and pretty well, if i say so myself), and i know what it can and can't do, and yes, it's not
exactly
the same as DH, i'm just saying DH had the same sort of reputation for being OP at the lower ranks, while it was pretty much unused at higher ones.And while i agree that there's stuff that needs working on scourge, like the way that shades work, adding a animation/cast time on shade skills for example, reworking them so that people can clear them off points, whatever, just some actual counter that isn't stay away.I'll have to say that otherwise, scourge isn't as broken as people claim. Overall conditions and boons have become a bit ridiculous, and since Scourge takes advantage of both, it seems disproportionately op, but the fault doesn't lie on the class mechanics directly, but the overall state of the game.That's why people can counter it, and quite easily, if it was actually that broken, counters wouldn't exist (like post-HoT Chronomancers for example).

I don’t want scourge to be nuked. I want it to remain viable, but the way it’s designed it is difficult for it to remain viable without being op. Many suggestions would outright destroy scourge, which would make many people happy. But something has to change. I agree adding cast times and animations to the F skills would go a long way. I also personally don’t like the corruption mechanic. I think boon stripping as opposed to corruption is a lot better mechanic. Ease of aoe corruption is one of the things that is so dumb about scourge.

Either way I do believe the complaints about scourge are justified. Wanting to tar and feather scourge probably isn’t. But something has to change.

just make it so some stat like healing power (so little used) reduces condition dmg like armor does.or a stat like expertise (i'd say toughness...but that might be a bit overkill....not sure up for debate)

and the 2nd chance, nerf the skills that turn boons into torment and cripple, from 10 sec torment, down to (lets say 20% to 30% to be conservative) as most builds for it focus on maximizing the condition time and dmg. so reducing the base time wont destroy the skill, but it will cool it down.

or we could focus on giving more condition cleanse skills to classes that lack them (ironically....including necro)

personally, i think giving a stat the ability to reduce condition dmg (like toughness and armor does to physcial) will fix everything...provided its a stat people don't spam with already. which is why healing power is a nice option(how many builds do you see with it)

This would affect all condition builds though. Not just problem ones like scourge or mirage. Scourge needs targeted adjustments that bring it down in relation to other classes. A flat condition nerf via stats really wouldnt fix it in relation to other classes.

which is why i said a little used stat. if you go for that stat, you'll have to give up toughness ,vit, power, or condition.

healing power isn't very forgiving in what stat combos it has

This would also likely affect all builds because they would go for that stat just to defend themselves against scourge. They would likely become either less offensively or less defensively powerful as a result of giving up their normal stat to get the stat that would defend against scourge. Meanwhile scourge wouldn’t have to change anything. Nerfing scourge by potentially nerfing all others wanting to defend themselves against it doesn’t really make sense.

Scourge itself is a problem. Therefore scourge is the thing that needs changed.

thing is, scourge isn't the only problem

Mesmer can get some pretty insane confusion stacks.

and the condition thing in general shows theres a hole in the game, where theres no counter to condi spam. so even if we fix just scourge and mesmer, any future classes or builds that are heavy condi (and rangers got potential in the future if it gets a propper condi weapon), then we'd have this same issue all over again.

the better idea is to address the issue now to avoid the future repeat.

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Majirah.5089

Majirah.5089

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@arenta.2953 said:

@arenta.2953 said:don't forget "they don't have range or mobility. so just range them to death" as if thats actually possible <.<

It is.

@Egorum.9506 said:Why then were there only a handful of scourge in the top 100 last season?Because scourge is mostly a problem for low tier players (which are the majority).

@Egorum.9506 said:You guys know you can easily LoS shades right? or am i breaking the forums with this knowledge? That kitten bugs out all the kitten time, any small obstruction renders them completely unable to attack you, including being on higher groundGood players know this, but often good players don't go to the forums and complain.

Another guy coming here thinking he knows what he's talking about. Top 20 players have literally quit because of the atrocious balance attributed mostly to scourge and firebrand. Why the firebrand pairing with scourge and not any other class though? It's almost like scourge is the biggest threat in the game if left unattended? Surely speaks a lot about their overall power.

But apparently, this AT professional player knows for a fact that scourge isn't a problem. Got it.Not saying it isn't a problem, just saying there's ways to address that problem, and that the problem is blown out of proportion by people that don't even know what their problem actually is (apart that they die a lot).Top 20 players have quit before, and they'll keep on quitting, that doesn't mean its not because of a particular class.Anything that does a lot of damage is dangerous if paired with something that does a lot of healing... It doesn't mean that it's broken, just that it shouldn't be getting that much healing?

Edit:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:1) Actually i'm a scourge main

Nevermind, forget I even took the time to interact with you.Yeah, see that's why no one listens to you.Scourge can, and is often countered, i know this because i've been on the receiving end of it. The fact that most people don't bother trying, and resort to forum wars. "Trying to win on the courts what they can't win on the pitch" doesn't invalidate that there are ways to counter the build.Are there things that need change? Yes, and i've pointed them out a number of times in a number of posts like this that seem to pop out.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon Hunter had this exact same problem. People that wandered happily into DH traps and then complained they were dying too much. And unlike Scourge, DH can chase you all over the place, good luck running away from a guardian class.

Dragon hunter traps could be dodged, cannot be placed at range, do not have functionality that allows them to deal additional damage with no cast or animation after the trap itself went off, does not have charges that allows you to immediately replace it if the first trap failed. Nor did was the dragon hunter able to have a trap go off near itself at the same time it went off where it placed it.

They are different. Sand shades are far far far more powerful. Not to mention the F powers occur around the scourge as well.

I like how everyone thinks that the scourge is this stationary being that can move or place shades elsewhere, has no barrier, weapon skills, or utility skills. They have all of those on top of their obscene profession mechanic.

If the scourge just stands there, doesn’t move it’s shade, or use any other ability and gets nuked by a glass ranger then it is absolutely awful and would be instagibbed on any other class as well.

All of the bring range, don’t stand in circles, learn to kite arguments all predicate on scourges being brain dead idiots who don’t move, don’t know what their abilities do, and don’t use them. If the scourge is even halfway competent these almighty ranged classes become what they actually are - a liability to their team.

I play scourge (and pretty well, if i say so myself), and i know what it can and can't do, and yes, it's not
exactly
the same as DH, i'm just saying DH had the same sort of reputation for being OP at the lower ranks, while it was pretty much unused at higher ones.And while i agree that there's stuff that needs working on scourge, like the way that shades work, adding a animation/cast time on shade skills for example, reworking them so that people can clear them off points, whatever, just some actual counter that isn't stay away.I'll have to say that otherwise, scourge isn't as broken as people claim. Overall conditions and boons have become a bit ridiculous, and since Scourge takes advantage of both, it seems disproportionately op, but the fault doesn't lie on the class mechanics directly, but the overall state of the game.That's why people can counter it, and quite easily, if it was actually that broken, counters wouldn't exist (like post-HoT Chronomancers for example).

I don’t want scourge to be nuked. I want it to remain viable, but the way it’s designed it is difficult for it to remain viable without being op. Many suggestions would outright destroy scourge, which would make many people happy. But something has to change. I agree adding cast times and animations to the F skills would go a long way. I also personally don’t like the corruption mechanic. I think boon stripping as opposed to corruption is a lot better mechanic. Ease of aoe corruption is one of the things that is so dumb about scourge.

Either way I do believe the complaints about scourge are justified. Wanting to tar and feather scourge probably isn’t. But something has to change.

just make it so some stat like healing power (so little used) reduces condition dmg like armor does.or a stat like expertise (i'd say toughness...but that might be a bit overkill....not sure up for debate)

and the 2nd chance, nerf the skills that turn boons into torment and cripple, from 10 sec torment, down to (lets say 20% to 30% to be conservative) as most builds for it focus on maximizing the condition time and dmg. so reducing the base time wont destroy the skill, but it will cool it down.

or we could focus on giving more condition cleanse skills to classes that lack them (ironically....including necro)

personally, i think giving a stat the ability to reduce condition dmg (like toughness and armor does to physcial) will fix everything...provided its a stat people don't spam with already. which is why healing power is a nice option(how many builds do you see with it)

This would affect all condition builds though. Not just problem ones like scourge or mirage. Scourge needs targeted adjustments that bring it down in relation to other classes. A flat condition nerf via stats really wouldnt fix it in relation to other classes.

which is why i said a little used stat. if you go for that stat, you'll have to give up toughness ,vit, power, or condition.

healing power isn't very forgiving in what stat combos it has

This would also likely affect all builds because they would go for that stat just to defend themselves against scourge. They would likely become either less offensively or less defensively powerful as a result of giving up their normal stat to get the stat that would defend against scourge. Meanwhile scourge wouldn’t have to change anything. Nerfing scourge by potentially nerfing all others wanting to defend themselves against it doesn’t really make sense.

Scourge itself is a problem. Therefore scourge is the thing that needs changed.

@arenta.2953 said:don't forget "they don't have range or mobility. so just range them to death" as if thats actually possible <.<

It is.

@Egorum.9506 said:Why then were there only a handful of scourge in the top 100 last season?Because scourge is mostly a problem for low tier players (which are the majority).

@Egorum.9506 said:You guys know you can easily LoS shades right? or am i breaking the forums with this knowledge? That kitten bugs out all the kitten time, any small obstruction renders them completely unable to attack you, including being on higher groundGood players know this, but often good players don't go to the forums and complain.

Another guy coming here thinking he knows what he's talking about. Top 20 players have literally quit because of the atrocious balance attributed mostly to scourge and firebrand. Why the firebrand pairing with scourge and not any other class though? It's almost like scourge is the biggest threat in the game if left unattended? Surely speaks a lot about their overall power.

But apparently, this AT professional player knows for a fact that scourge isn't a problem. Got it.Not saying it isn't a problem, just saying there's ways to address that problem, and that the problem is blown out of proportion by people that don't even know what their problem actually is (apart that they die a lot).Top 20 players have quit before, and they'll keep on quitting, that doesn't mean its not because of a particular class.Anything that does a lot of damage is dangerous if paired with something that does a lot of healing... It doesn't mean that it's broken, just that it shouldn't be getting that much healing?

Edit:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:1) Actually i'm a scourge main

Nevermind, forget I even took the time to interact with you.Yeah, see that's why no one listens to you.Scourge can, and is often countered, i know this because i've been on the receiving end of it. The fact that most people don't bother trying, and resort to forum wars. "Trying to win on the courts what they can't win on the pitch" doesn't invalidate that there are ways to counter the build.Are there things that need change? Yes, and i've pointed them out a number of times in a number of posts like this that seem to pop out.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon Hunter had this exact same problem. People that wandered happily into DH traps and then complained they were dying too much. And unlike Scourge, DH can chase you all over the place, good luck running away from a guardian class.

Dragon hunter traps could be dodged, cannot be placed at range, do not have functionality that allows them to deal additional damage with no cast or animation after the trap itself went off, does not have charges that allows you to immediately replace it if the first trap failed. Nor did was the dragon hunter able to have a trap go off near itself at the same time it went off where it placed it.

They are different. Sand shades are far far far more powerful. Not to mention the F powers occur around the scourge as well.

I like how everyone thinks that the scourge is this stationary being that can move or place shades elsewhere, has no barrier, weapon skills, or utility skills. They have all of those on top of their obscene profession mechanic.

If the scourge just stands there, doesn’t move it’s shade, or use any other ability and gets nuked by a glass ranger then it is absolutely awful and would be instagibbed on any other class as well.

All of the bring range, don’t stand in circles, learn to kite arguments all predicate on scourges being brain dead idiots who don’t move, don’t know what their abilities do, and don’t use them. If the scourge is even halfway competent these almighty ranged classes become what they actually are - a liability to their team.

I play scourge (and pretty well, if i say so myself), and i know what it can and can't do, and yes, it's not
exactly
the same as DH, i'm just saying DH had the same sort of reputation for being OP at the lower ranks, while it was pretty much unused at higher ones.And while i agree that there's stuff that needs working on scourge, like the way that shades work, adding a animation/cast time on shade skills for example, reworking them so that people can clear them off points, whatever, just some actual counter that isn't stay away.I'll have to say that otherwise, scourge isn't as broken as people claim. Overall conditions and boons have become a bit ridiculous, and since Scourge takes advantage of both, it seems disproportionately op, but the fault doesn't lie on the class mechanics directly, but the overall state of the game.That's why people can counter it, and quite easily, if it was actually that broken, counters wouldn't exist (like post-HoT Chronomancers for example).

I don’t want scourge to be nuked. I want it to remain viable, but the way it’s designed it is difficult for it to remain viable without being op. Many suggestions would outright destroy scourge, which would make many people happy. But something has to change. I agree adding cast times and animations to the F skills would go a long way. I also personally don’t like the corruption mechanic. I think boon stripping as opposed to corruption is a lot better mechanic. Ease of aoe corruption is one of the things that is so dumb about scourge.

Either way I do believe the complaints about scourge are justified. Wanting to tar and feather scourge probably isn’t. But something has to change.

just make it so some stat like healing power (so little used) reduces condition dmg like armor does.or a stat like expertise (i'd say toughness...but that might be a bit overkill....not sure up for debate)

and the 2nd chance, nerf the skills that turn boons into torment and cripple, from 10 sec torment, down to (lets say 20% to 30% to be conservative) as most builds for it focus on maximizing the condition time and dmg. so reducing the base time wont destroy the skill, but it will cool it down.

or we could focus on giving more condition cleanse skills to classes that lack them (ironically....including necro)

personally, i think giving a stat the ability to reduce condition dmg (like toughness and armor does to physcial) will fix everything...provided its a stat people don't spam with already. which is why healing power is a nice option(how many builds do you see with it)

This would affect all condition builds though. Not just problem ones like scourge or mirage. Scourge needs targeted adjustments that bring it down in relation to other classes. A flat condition nerf via stats really wouldnt fix it in relation to other classes.

which is why i said a little used stat. if you go for that stat, you'll have to give up toughness ,vit, power, or condition.

healing power isn't very forgiving in what stat combos it has

This would also likely affect all builds because they would go for that stat just to defend themselves against scourge. They would likely become either less offensively or less defensively powerful as a result of giving up their normal stat to get the stat that would defend against scourge. Meanwhile scourge wouldn’t have to change anything. Nerfing scourge by potentially nerfing all others wanting to defend themselves against it doesn’t really make sense.

Scourge itself is a problem. Therefore scourge is the thing that needs changed.

thing is, scourge isn't the only problem

Mesmer can get some pretty insane confusion stacks.

and the condition thing in general shows theres a hole in the game, where theres no counter to condi spam. so even if we fix just scourge and mesmer, any future classes or builds that are heavy condi (and rangers got potential in the future if it gets a propper condi weapon), then we'd have this same issue all over again.

the better idea is to address the issue now to avoid the future repeat.

@arenta.2953 said:don't forget "they don't have range or mobility. so just range them to death" as if thats actually possible <.<

It is.

@Egorum.9506 said:Why then were there only a handful of scourge in the top 100 last season?Because scourge is mostly a problem for low tier players (which are the majority).

@Egorum.9506 said:You guys know you can easily LoS shades right? or am i breaking the forums with this knowledge? That kitten bugs out all the kitten time, any small obstruction renders them completely unable to attack you, including being on higher groundGood players know this, but often good players don't go to the forums and complain.

Another guy coming here thinking he knows what he's talking about. Top 20 players have literally quit because of the atrocious balance attributed mostly to scourge and firebrand. Why the firebrand pairing with scourge and not any other class though? It's almost like scourge is the biggest threat in the game if left unattended? Surely speaks a lot about their overall power.

But apparently, this AT professional player knows for a fact that scourge isn't a problem. Got it.Not saying it isn't a problem, just saying there's ways to address that problem, and that the problem is blown out of proportion by people that don't even know what their problem actually is (apart that they die a lot).Top 20 players have quit before, and they'll keep on quitting, that doesn't mean its not because of a particular class.Anything that does a lot of damage is dangerous if paired with something that does a lot of healing... It doesn't mean that it's broken, just that it shouldn't be getting that much healing?

Edit:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:1) Actually i'm a scourge main

Nevermind, forget I even took the time to interact with you.Yeah, see that's why no one listens to you.Scourge can, and is often countered, i know this because i've been on the receiving end of it. The fact that most people don't bother trying, and resort to forum wars. "Trying to win on the courts what they can't win on the pitch" doesn't invalidate that there are ways to counter the build.Are there things that need change? Yes, and i've pointed them out a number of times in a number of posts like this that seem to pop out.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon Hunter had this exact same problem. People that wandered happily into DH traps and then complained they were dying too much. And unlike Scourge, DH can chase you all over the place, good luck running away from a guardian class.

Dragon hunter traps could be dodged, cannot be placed at range, do not have functionality that allows them to deal additional damage with no cast or animation after the trap itself went off, does not have charges that allows you to immediately replace it if the first trap failed. Nor did was the dragon hunter able to have a trap go off near itself at the same time it went off where it placed it.

They are different. Sand shades are far far far more powerful. Not to mention the F powers occur around the scourge as well.

I like how everyone thinks that the scourge is this stationary being that can move or place shades elsewhere, has no barrier, weapon skills, or utility skills. They have all of those on top of their obscene profession mechanic.

If the scourge just stands there, doesn’t move it’s shade, or use any other ability and gets nuked by a glass ranger then it is absolutely awful and would be instagibbed on any other class as well.

All of the bring range, don’t stand in circles, learn to kite arguments all predicate on scourges being brain dead idiots who don’t move, don’t know what their abilities do, and don’t use them. If the scourge is even halfway competent these almighty ranged classes become what they actually are - a liability to their team.

I play scourge (and pretty well, if i say so myself), and i know what it can and can't do, and yes, it's not
exactly
the same as DH, i'm just saying DH had the same sort of reputation for being OP at the lower ranks, while it was pretty much unused at higher ones.And while i agree that there's stuff that needs working on scourge, like the way that shades work, adding a animation/cast time on shade skills for example, reworking them so that people can clear them off points, whatever, just some actual counter that isn't stay away.I'll have to say that otherwise, scourge isn't as broken as people claim. Overall conditions and boons have become a bit ridiculous, and since Scourge takes advantage of both, it seems disproportionately op, but the fault doesn't lie on the class mechanics directly, but the overall state of the game.That's why people can counter it, and quite easily, if it was actually that broken, counters wouldn't exist (like post-HoT Chronomancers for example).

I don’t want scourge to be nuked. I want it to remain viable, but the way it’s designed it is difficult for it to remain viable without being op. Many suggestions would outright destroy scourge, which would make many people happy. But something has to change. I agree adding cast times and animations to the F skills would go a long way. I also personally don’t like the corruption mechanic. I think boon stripping as opposed to corruption is a lot better mechanic. Ease of aoe corruption is one of the things that is so dumb about scourge.

Either way I do believe the complaints about scourge are justified. Wanting to tar and feather scourge probably isn’t. But something has to change.

just make it so some stat like healing power (so little used) reduces condition dmg like armor does.or a stat like expertise (i'd say toughness...but that might be a bit overkill....not sure up for debate)

and the 2nd chance, nerf the skills that turn boons into torment and cripple, from 10 sec torment, down to (lets say 20% to 30% to be conservative) as most builds for it focus on maximizing the condition time and dmg. so reducing the base time wont destroy the skill, but it will cool it down.

or we could focus on giving more condition cleanse skills to classes that lack them (ironically....including necro)

personally, i think giving a stat the ability to reduce condition dmg (like toughness and armor does to physcial) will fix everything...provided its a stat people don't spam with already. which is why healing power is a nice option(how many builds do you see with it)

This would affect all condition builds though. Not just problem ones like scourge or mirage. Scourge needs targeted adjustments that bring it down in relation to other classes. A flat condition nerf via stats really wouldnt fix it in relation to other classes.

which is why i said a little used stat. if you go for that stat, you'll have to give up toughness ,vit, power, or condition.

healing power isn't very forgiving in what stat combos it has

This would also likely affect all builds because they would go for that stat just to defend themselves against scourge. They would likely become either less offensively or less defensively powerful as a result of giving up their normal stat to get the stat that would defend against scourge. Meanwhile scourge wouldn’t have to change anything. Nerfing scourge by potentially nerfing all others wanting to defend themselves against it doesn’t really make sense.

Scourge itself is a problem. Therefore scourge is the thing that needs changed.

@arenta.2953 said:don't forget "they don't have range or mobility. so just range them to death" as if thats actually possible <.<

It is.

@Egorum.9506 said:Why then were there only a handful of scourge in the top 100 last season?Because scourge is mostly a problem for low tier players (which are the majority).

@Egorum.9506 said:You guys know you can easily LoS shades right? or am i breaking the forums with this knowledge? That kitten bugs out all the kitten time, any small obstruction renders them completely unable to attack you, including being on higher groundGood players know this, but often good players don't go to the forums and complain.

Another guy coming here thinking he knows what he's talking about. Top 20 players have literally quit because of the atrocious balance attributed mostly to scourge and firebrand. Why the firebrand pairing with scourge and not any other class though? It's almost like scourge is the biggest threat in the game if left unattended? Surely speaks a lot about their overall power.

But apparently, this AT professional player knows for a fact that scourge isn't a problem. Got it.Not saying it isn't a problem, just saying there's ways to address that problem, and that the problem is blown out of proportion by people that don't even know what their problem actually is (apart that they die a lot).Top 20 players have quit before, and they'll keep on quitting, that doesn't mean its not because of a particular class.Anything that does a lot of damage is dangerous if paired with something that does a lot of healing... It doesn't mean that it's broken, just that it shouldn't be getting that much healing?

Edit:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:1) Actually i'm a scourge main

Nevermind, forget I even took the time to interact with you.Yeah, see that's why no one listens to you.Scourge can, and is often countered, i know this because i've been on the receiving end of it. The fact that most people don't bother trying, and resort to forum wars. "Trying to win on the courts what they can't win on the pitch" doesn't invalidate that there are ways to counter the build.Are there things that need change? Yes, and i've pointed them out a number of times in a number of posts like this that seem to pop out.

I'd also like to point out that Dragon Hunter had this exact same problem. People that wandered happily into DH traps and then complained they were dying too much. And unlike Scourge, DH can chase you all over the place, good luck running away from a guardian class.

Dragon hunter traps could be dodged, cannot be placed at range, do not have functionality that allows them to deal additional damage with no cast or animation after the trap itself went off, does not have charges that allows you to immediately replace it if the first trap failed. Nor did was the dragon hunter able to have a trap go off near itself at the same time it went off where it placed it.

They are different. Sand shades are far far far more powerful. Not to mention the F powers occur around the scourge as well.

I like how everyone thinks that the scourge is this stationary being that can move or place shades elsewhere, has no barrier, weapon skills, or utility skills. They have all of those on top of their obscene profession mechanic.

If the scourge just stands there, doesn’t move it’s shade, or use any other ability and gets nuked by a glass ranger then it is absolutely awful and would be instagibbed on any other class as well.

All of the bring range, don’t stand in circles, learn to kite arguments all predicate on scourges being brain dead idiots who don’t move, don’t know what their abilities do, and don’t use them. If the scourge is even halfway competent these almighty ranged classes become what they actually are - a liability to their team.

I play scourge (and pretty well, if i say so myself), and i know what it can and can't do, and yes, it's not
exactly
the same as DH, i'm just saying DH had the same sort of reputation for being OP at the lower ranks, while it was pretty much unused at higher ones.And while i agree that there's stuff that needs working on scourge, like the way that shades work, adding a animation/cast time on shade skills for example, reworking them so that people can clear them off points, whatever, just some actual counter that isn't stay away.I'll have to say that otherwise, scourge isn't as broken as people claim. Overall conditions and boons have become a bit ridiculous, and since Scourge takes advantage of both, it seems disproportionately op, but the fault doesn't lie on the class mechanics directly, but the overall state of the game.That's why people can counter it, and quite easily, if it was actually that broken, counters wouldn't exist (like post-HoT Chronomancers for example).

I don’t want scourge to be nuked. I want it to remain viable, but the way it’s designed it is difficult for it to remain viable without being op. Many suggestions would outright destroy scourge, which would make many people happy. But something has to change. I agree adding cast times and animations to the F skills would go a long way. I also personally don’t like the corruption mechanic. I think boon stripping as opposed to corruption is a lot better mechanic. Ease of aoe corruption is one of the things that is so dumb about scourge.

Either way I do believe the complaints about scourge are justified. Wanting to tar and feather scourge probably isn’t. But something has to change.

just make it so some stat like healing power (so little used) reduces condition dmg like armor does.or a stat like expertise (i'd say toughness...but that might be a bit overkill....not sure up for debate)

and the 2nd chance, nerf the skills that turn boons into torment and cripple, from 10 sec torment, down to (lets say 20% to 30% to be conservative) as most builds for it focus on maximizing the condition time and dmg. so reducing the base time wont destroy the skill, but it will cool it down.

or we could focus on giving more condition cleanse skills to classes that lack them (ironically....including necro)

personally, i think giving a stat the ability to reduce condition dmg (like toughness and armor does to physcial) will fix everything...provided its a stat people don't spam with already. which is why healing power is a nice option(how many builds do you see with it)

This would affect all condition builds though. Not just problem ones like scourge or mirage. Scourge needs targeted adjustments that bring it down in relation to other classes. A flat condition nerf via stats really wouldnt fix it in relation to other classes.

which is why i said a little used stat. if you go for that stat, you'll have to give up toughness ,vit, power, or condition.

healing power isn't very forgiving in what stat combos it has

This would also likely affect all builds because they would go for that stat just to defend themselves against scourge. They would likely become either less offensively or less defensively powerful as a result of giving up their normal stat to get the stat that would defend against scourge. Meanwhile scourge wouldn’t have to change anything. Nerfing scourge by potentially nerfing all others wanting to defend themselves against it doesn’t really make sense.

Scourge itself is a problem. Therefore scourge is the thing that needs changed.

thing is, scourge isn't the only problem

Mesmer can get some pretty insane confusion stacks.

and the condition thing in general shows theres a hole in the game, where theres no counter to condi spam. so even if we fix just scourge and mesmer, any future classes or builds that are heavy condi (and rangers got potential in the future if it gets a propper condi weapon), then we'd have this same issue all over again.

the better idea is to address the issue now to avoid the future repeat.

Conditions in general may need tweaking, but that fix should be separate from a targeted fix for scourge and mirage. You stated they are both a problem. And they are. Therefore they need individual attention regardless of any changes to conditions overall.

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Master Ketsu.4569

Master Ketsu.4569

Posted
Posted

This is always a thing in any PvP game whenever a broken instant cast Area of Effect spammer is introduced.

Instant cast AoE by its very nature is non-punishing and extremely easy to play. This means unskilled players are able to use it to rise through the ranks. Those same players will then defend their mindless spam build because they don't want to admit that they are being carried.

Scourge players don't want to accept the reality that they wont be able to compete without their crutch. It's nothing special. Just standard human psychology. If reality is unpleasant then just deny it.

I've seen it in League of Legends. I've seen it in Tera. I've seen it in SMITE. I've seen it everywhere. The same story always pans out.

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