Mirage Specialization Updates for the Path of Fire Launch

FaboBabo.3581 · September 22, 2017

@Ryouzanpaku.1273 said:@FaboBabo.3581well... You are either:TrollingDeliberately lyingAnnoyingly flexing
Neither of these will get you many friends.. But as you have stated you dont care... So good for you.

Or im right (:

Ryouzanpaku.1273 · September 22, 2017

That would be still option 3-Annoyingly Flexing.

FaboBabo.3581 · September 22, 2017

@Ryouzanpaku.1273 said:@FaboBabo.3581well... You are either:TrollingDeliberately lyingAnnoyingly flexing
Neither of these will get you many friends.. But as you have stated you dont care... So good for you.

Or im right (: > @Ryouzanpaku.1273 said:

That would be still option 3-Annoyingly Flexing.

Well i dont know the use of the word flexing so i googled ; A desperate attempt to win an argument. Something that one person accuses another of doing when the accused person makes a salient point that the accuser cannot refute.Bob just made a bunch of good points, but he can't be right. He must be flexing.

Ryouzanpaku.1273 · September 22, 2017

And? Do not worry I know meaning of flexing even though in this case you should reread my original post and then google word just before flexing to understand whole picture.Anyway this is my last post in the dialog with you as it has derailed original thread too much already.

FaboBabo.3581 · September 22, 2017

@Ryouzanpaku.1273 said:And? Do not worry I know meaning of flexing even though in this case you should reread my original post and then google word just before flexing to understand whole picture.Anyway this is my last post in the dialog with you as it has derailed original thread too much already.

Was more of a question then a statement. I still dont 100% know what u meant, which is my Problem in due to the Language barrier. Whatever i Think ur right on the point talking about the discussion itself.To summarize ; while i like the changes and i Think mirrage will be viable in all gamemodes , there are still Things which needs changes.

Skuzz.6580 · September 22, 2017

Just agree to disagree and be done with it already.Both (and others) that claim they know the outcome of what dps spec is going to be king, which one garbage, how much dps something is going to do.. is all just guesswork. You simply won't know for sure until it has been properly tested/benchmarked, which you can do tonight/tomorrow. Or you know, you could just enjoy PoF and leave the min-maxing till later, but that's just me.

FaboBabo.3581 · September 22, 2017

@Skuzz.6580 said:Just agree to disagree and be done with it already.Both (and others) that claim they know the outcome of what dps spec is going to be king, which one garbage, how much dps something is going to do.. is all just guesswork. You simply won't know for sure until it has been properly tested/benchmarked, which you can do tonight/tomorrow. Or you know, you could just enjoy PoF and leave the min-maxing till later, but that's just me.

Exactly what im going to do. Tbh i dont even care for max dps Output, since i will never Build a full dmg set etc. Still doing the right math will give a picture of the max dps output. There i wonder how several ppl get different numbers. The one side claims sonething arround 30 to 32k.The other side claims " numbers " like ; " only a bit more damage but this is meanigless"

Xyonon.3987 · September 22, 2017

@FaboBabo.3581 said:
@Skuzz.6580 said:Just agree to disagree and be done with it already.Both (and others) that claim they know the outcome of what dps spec is going to be king, which one garbage, how much dps something is going to do.. is all just guesswork. You simply won't know for sure until it has been properly tested/benchmarked, which you can do tonight/tomorrow. Or you know, you could just enjoy PoF and leave the min-maxing till later, but that's just me.

Exactly what im going to do. Tbh i dont even care for max dps Output, since i will never Build a full dmg set etc. Still doing the right math will give a picture of the max dps output. There i wonder how several ppl get different numbers. The one side claims sonething arround 30 to 32k.The other side claims " numbers " like ; " only a bit more damage but this is meanigless"

Thing is - condi Mes is already over 30k, but unfortunately the golem does not proc confusion nor torment. I've got a benchmark of 28.1k with my build (realistic ofc), that'd be estimated 32.8k against a target that moves 20% of the time and attack every 3.5s (Matthias Gabrel). Most people just aren't smart enough to consider the raid scenario rather than the golem benchmark.

Current condi Mes is fine, Mirage is a straight up buff and therefore will also be fine. It won't be top everywhere, it's rather a niche spec, and that's why it's balanced. The game would be horrible if you'd see only eles everywhere again, cuz it's the highest dps. Specs have to be niche to be played in different encounters, cuz that's healthy for the game. The only exception for this are support specs like the current Chrono, Druid and Wars, altho I can see one war being replaced with a Mirage soon eough...

Dondagora.9645 · September 22, 2017

@FaboBabo.3581 said:
@Dondagora.9645 said:@"FaboBabo.3581"
Look, this is the same thing with your original post in the old forums.
Give us a build or be quiet. kitten, give us a video if you can, or pics, or something. If you can't give us something along those lines to look at and say "huh, I can see that", then it's unreasonable to assume you can convince us. And if you're unwilling to convince us wholeheartedly (AKA you're just half-arsing it), then I don't understand why you're even attempting to argue when you're forgoing every possible avenue of being persuasive and valid.

Well im not the one who u Think i am.Am currently on my phone and won't do the math here again. Not even Sure if im going to do the math again Overall ( i should get home in the evening when pof is already launched )

Second Thing is that im not in the need to proof anything to u since tbh i dont care about u. Wait a few houres and look up for benchmark videos, or go ahead and say everyone is lying i dont care mate.( i never saved the math cause why should i ... )

All I'm saying is, from a perspective of logic and making claims, is that if you're not willing (or don't care) to provide anything to back up your claims, then what's the point of claiming it in the first place? Maybe we think you're just being a jerk (for lack of a better word because of forum censorship, though the word I'd use is more akin to a "donkey named jack"), which is fair for us to do because you're just claiming something and saying you don't have to prove it but that we're all dumb for not believing you (this is implied since you've argued "I can't believe nobody else figured it out" or something along those lines), and then maybe, just maybe, you'll make us look like jerks 'cause you're right and we were saying all this stuff but we're proved wrong. That still, in the end, is just you being a jerk to make us look like jerks.

So, stop being a jerk, and either show us some math or build or something, or stop making claims without being willing (or caring) enough to show your reasoning to us in some capacity (i.e. a build or math). Otherwise, as I've said, what's the point of saying anything in the first place?

FaboBabo.3581 · September 22, 2017

@Dondagora.9645 said:
@FaboBabo.3581 said:
@Dondagora.9645 said:@"FaboBabo.3581"
Look, this is the same thing with your original post in the old forums.
Give us a build or be quiet. kitten, give us a video if you can, or pics, or something. If you can't give us something along those lines to look at and say "huh, I can see that", then it's unreasonable to assume you can convince us. And if you're unwilling to convince us wholeheartedly (AKA you're just half-arsing it), then I don't understand why you're even attempting to argue when you're forgoing every possible avenue of being persuasive and valid.

Well im not the one who u Think i am.Am currently on my phone and won't do the math here again. Not even Sure if im going to do the math again Overall ( i should get home in the evening when pof is already launched )

Second Thing is that im not in the need to proof anything to u since tbh i dont care about u. Wait a few houres and look up for benchmark videos, or go ahead and say everyone is lying i dont care mate.( i never saved the math cause why should i ... )

All I'm saying is, from a perspective of logic and making claims, is that if you're not willing (or don't care) to provide anything to back up your claims, then what's the point of claiming it in the first place? Maybe we think you're just being a jerk (for lack of a better word because of forum censorship, though the word I'd use is more akin to a "donkey named jack"), which is fair for us to do because you're just claiming something and saying you don't have to prove it but that we're all kitten for not believing you (this is implied since you've argued "I can't believe nobody else figured it out" or something along those lines), and then maybe, just maybe, you'll make us look like jerks 'cause you're right and we were saying all this stuff but we're proved wrong. That still, in the end, is just you being a jerk to make us look like jerks.

So, stop being a jerk, and either show us some math or build or something, or stop making claims without being willing (or caring) enough to show your reasoning to us in some capacity (i.e. a build or math). Otherwise, as I've said, what's the point of saying anything in the first place?

Im just giving Informations. If u dont believe me its ok. And im not going to let them look as jerk if im right. They will be looked as jerks cause they said they did the math, while they a) didnt or b) did absolutely wrong.

Same with me ; if im wrong it shows that im either a) a lyer or b) really bad with math.

I stated why im not posting the math. I dont want to convince anyone, and additonal we're 3 houres left from PoF. In 4 houres we have Golem benchmarks. No need to put any effort in theorycrafting anymore.

And yeah my main Thing is that i dont like it when people do claims without thinking about it. Since i DID the math i KNOW that ppl who claim other numbers DID NOT do the math, but claim they did. They look at the skills and do em once vs a golem , have bad rng and then there testing is done.

Albert Rhymestein.8756 · September 22, 2017

Hey guys I know I'm late to the forum party, but I have an honest question about all of these changes: What does it mean for the power builds? I love playing power chrono, and personally am not a big fan of condi (which is clearly what mirage naturally leans towards), but there always has been a decent sense of viability for power builds in most cases, and I'm wondering how Mirage stacks up? Will it be on par with power chrono? If I can enjoy the spec playing a power build and not looking at my output thinking about "the good old chronomancer days" then I'll be fine. I'm speaking in terms of pvp obviously not raids and fractals.

Tseison.4659 · September 22, 2017

Okay enough is enough already. Can we please stay on topic or maybe argue in private message or in game? Thanks...

It’s already bad enough that I’m impatiently waiting for POF to hit live and I’m stuck here at work (till 4:00p EST) -_____-“

Levetty.1279 · September 22, 2017

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Pyroatheist.9031 said:
@FaboBabo.3581 said:
@Zenith.7301 said:
@Ojimaru.8970 said:I really don't agree with using the arguments of "because a Thief can do X, therefore Mirage must be able to do X." This Mirage is not a Thief and therefore doesn't need to be able to be able to
exactly
mimic a Thief's capabilities. A Mirage may be "a Thief as seen through a Mesmer," but again that doesn't mean it should have the exact same mobility, deception, or damage options as a Thief,
because the Mirage is not a Thief
.

You're right. Mirage is not a thief, just a worse version of one. What a wonderful thing to be the inferior unique snowflake. Nothing better than being uniquely bad in PvE.

Lucky pve is 1/3 of the Game.

Well, it's gonna be niche at best in instanced PvE. It'll be absolute trash in WvW group compositions still. It'll be usable in open world pve and roaming WvW, that's about it.

Can we stop saying stuff like "Usable in open world pve." as any metric of anything ever? _Everything _is usable in open world pve. Nomad Shout Heal warriors are usable in open world pve.

It's part of the game, it deserves to be mentioned. Don't get all up in arms about it unless open world pve is being used to justify changes or lack thereof.

The problem I have with people saying mirage is usable in open world is that a Nomad Shout Heal warrior will preform better then it.

Levetty.1279 · September 22, 2017

@Skuzz.6580 said:
@Zenith.7301 said:
@atlashugged.7642 said:
@Zenith.7301 said:Power mesmer is also a meme spec right in the middle of qT's benchmark, and it's niche because it has zero cleave, so it's a useless spec on fractals or anything that is not a single boss fight with no breaks

I'm not a PvE guy by any means, but isn't "right in the middle" of the benchmarks exactly where you want a balanced build's damage to be? I don't see the problem from what you've described of the mesmer PvE situation currently. It's got a great build, a good build, and an acceptable build.

Being comparatively in the middle doesn't help you when the delta is 6k DPS from the top.

Just imagine if there were no dps meters and benchmarks, how everyone then could just play whatever they like, wouldn't that be a nice thing?? Ooh wait you still can.People with there wow mindset are just ruining GW2 honestly, You don't bloody need a perfect group to clear content, you can do with 'average' builds and do just fine. Anet clearly designed it that way but people just want to nitpick because they don't want to put more effort in than is needed (as if a fight lasting 30seconds longer is much more effort..).

You mean like before raids when people were leaving out Rangers and Mesmers from dungeons and fractals because they could tell their DPS was shit?

Honestly this stupid 'just take whatever' argument is better aimed at Necros who are the biggest complainers about DPS in the game. Mesmers builds are mechanically flawed, it doesn't really matter what numbers they pump out till they fix the mechanics.

atlashugged.7642 · September 22, 2017

@"Albert Rhymestein.8756" said:Hey guys I know I'm late to the forum party, but I have an honest question about all of these changes: What does it mean for the power builds? I love playing power chrono, and personally am not a big fan of condi (which is clearly what mirage naturally leans towards), but there always has been a decent sense of viability for power builds in most cases, and I'm wondering how Mirage stacks up? Will it be on par with power chrono? If I can enjoy the spec playing a power build and not looking at my output thinking about "the good old chronomancer days" then I'll be fine. I'm speaking in terms of pvp obviously not raids and fractals.

Nobody knows for sure, but I am optimistic. You've got a lot more mobility skills to use, excellent clone generation, and can cast spells while evading. I think all three of those contribute to a very good power shatter or interrupt based build.

Levetty.1279 · September 22, 2017

While we are on the subject of mechanics, Mirage is only going to be worth while as a boost to Condi Mesmer in raids if it lets you swap out your pistol phantasms for axe clones as that will provide increased usability. Otherwise being a small dps boost for a terrible build thats only usable in 2 boss fights out of everything pve has to offer, let alone the rest of the game, is laughable.

Esplen.3940 · September 22, 2017

@Xyonon.3987 said:Thing is - condi Mes is already over 30k, but unfortunately the golem does not proc confusion nor torment. I've got a benchmark of 28.1k with my build (realistic ofc), that'd be estimated 32.8k against a target that moves 20% of the time and attack every 3.5s (Matthias Gabrel). Most people just aren't smart enough to consider the raid scenario rather than the golem benchmark.
Current condi Mes is fine, Mirage is a straight up buff and therefore will also be fine. It won't be top everywhere, it's rather a niche spec, and that's why it's balanced. The game would be horrible if you'd see only eles everywhere again, cuz it's the highest dps. Specs have to be niche to be played in different encounters, cuz that's healthy for the game. The only exception for this are support specs like the current Chrono, Druid and Wars, altho I can see one war being replaced with a Mirage soon eough...

So, benchmarks are not realistic outputs by any means. Anyone who has fought a raid boss with a DPS meter up can tell you right off the bat that you're not going to achieve benchmark DPS, even against golem fights like Mursaat Overseer. Condi Mesmer is almost always weaker than Power Mesmer except when it uses it's range because the Power variant cannot (see: Matthias or Cairn + Shared Agony). Against Matthias, it's most definitely not a golem fight so you're not going to be reaching the "ideal" 28-32k dps. You're looking at a realistic of around 13-18k depending on RNG (sacrifice, poison, corruption, zealous benediction, and more).If you insist that Mirage is a dps buff (compared to Condi Mes, not Power Mes), note that it's reliant on 3 factors: Melee, Vigor, and not having to move out of attacks, but being able to dodge them.

@Levetty.1279 said:You mean like before raids when people were leaving out Rangers and Mesmers from dungeons and fractals because they could tell their DPS was kitten?
Honestly this stupid 'just take whatever' argument is better aimed at Necros who are the biggest complainers about DPS in the game. Mesmers builds are mechanically flawed, it doesn't really matter what numbers they pump out till they fix the mechanics.

I would like to slightly disagree with the statement about dungeons and fractals. There were only 2 metas where Mesmer wasn't taken, 1 of them had no Quickness because of community shying away after the Quickness nerf, and the other where Guardians were borked and you ran 5 Hammer Guardians for maximum DPS + perma Quickness. Sure, during the dungeon meta, you might be hardpressed to find a group as a Mesmer, but they were technically ideal, it's just finding a good one wasn't easy (just like Chronos in raiding). I'm not saying that Chrono (or Dungeon Mesmer) is hard, just that many of the people attempting it didn't know what they were doing.

But yes, Necro has almost always had the shortest end of the stick, and so did Ranger until Druid gave it even more buffs on top of it's already large stack.

@"Albert Rhymestein.8756" said:Hey guys I know I'm late to the forum party, but I have an honest question about all of these changes: What does it mean for the power builds? I love playing power chrono, and personally am not a big fan of condi (which is clearly what mirage naturally leans towards), but there always has been a decent sense of viability for power builds in most cases, and I'm wondering how Mirage stacks up? Will it be on par with power chrono? If I can enjoy the spec playing a power build and not looking at my output thinking about "the good old chronomancer days" then I'll be fine. I'm speaking in terms of pvp obviously not raids and fractals.

You might be able to get away with a Power Mirage in PvP due to Infinite Horizons with Sword clones providing relief while you continue casting. It is both a shatter and a clone build, afaik. You'll have to get used to a lot of the new playstyle and how to properly bait your opponents, but I don't see it particularly shining in any category other than being something new to play.

Curunen.8729 · September 22, 2017

@Tseison.4659 said:Okay enough is enough already. Can we please stay on topic or maybe argue in private message or in game? Thanks...
It’s already bad enough that I’m impatiently waiting for POF to hit live and I’m stuck here at work (till 4:00p EST) -_____-“

Indeed.

Though I've managed to get out of work early so should be home in time for launch. ;)

EU perks xD

Zenith.7301 · September 22, 2017

Mesmers in fractal and dungeons were essentially only used for 2 things, reflect and portal. Most of the runs, the mesmer didn't even stay to fight the boss. Their DPS has always been abysmal on 5 man content because all your ramp up goes to hell with short lived mobs and bosses die shorty after you've finished ramping up anyways.

It's like saying mesmer is great in WvW because you are used for moa signet, portal, and veil (3 50+ sec cd's). In all these instances you might as well have played with nothing equipped but a focus because that's all you were good for. Mesmer weapons and utilities outside portal are all horrendously bad.

When was the last time anyone used the phantasm utilities? Mantras? People use pain because everything else is even worse. Wells were the first utility mesmers actually found use for in PvE, and those were locked behind an elite spec.

The sad thing is mesmer aoe wouldn't even be bad aoe or burst if we could actually use our shatters in PvE without gutting our sustained DPS that is phantasms.

Tseison.4659 · September 22, 2017

@Curunen.8729 said:
@Tseison.4659 said:Okay enough is enough already. Can we please stay on topic or maybe argue in private message or in game? Thanks...
It’s already bad enough that I’m impatiently waiting for POF to hit live and I’m stuck here at work (till 4:00p EST) -_____-“

Indeed.

Though I've managed to get out of work early so should be home in time for launch. ;)

EU perks xD

Hisssssssss Lucky >.>

Curunen.8729 · September 22, 2017

@Tseison.4659 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@Tseison.4659 said:Okay enough is enough already. Can we please stay on topic or maybe argue in private message or in game? Thanks...
It’s already bad enough that I’m impatiently waiting for POF to hit live and I’m stuck here at work (till 4:00p EST) -_____-“

Indeed.

Though I've managed to get out of work early so should be home in time for launch. ;)

EU perks xD

Hisssssssss

Lucky >.>

Actually I have a friend coming over shortly to stay the night and then I'm out most of the day tomorrow so between social obligation and an event I don't think I'll get that much time to play until tomorrow evening. :/

SugarCayne.3098 · September 23, 2017

Anyone else have the axe ability unlocked but not able to weild an axe?

Cyninja.2954 · September 23, 2017

@FaboBabo.3581 said:
@Dondagora.9645 said:
@FaboBabo.3581 said:
@Dondagora.9645 said:@"FaboBabo.3581"
Look, this is the same thing with your original post in the old forums.
Give us a build or be quiet. kitten, give us a video if you can, or pics, or something. If you can't give us something along those lines to look at and say "huh, I can see that", then it's unreasonable to assume you can convince us. And if you're unwilling to convince us wholeheartedly (AKA you're just half-arsing it), then I don't understand why you're even attempting to argue when you're forgoing every possible avenue of being persuasive and valid.