I really do enjoy these new Firebrand changes but...

[Falseprophet.1502]

CAN WE PLEASE GET ANOTHER CORE GUARDIAN WEAPON THAT DOES CONDITION DAMAGE!?! I really would love to see (I'm going to get flack for this) scepter or even sword be turned into a condition based weapon with torment, bleed or burn!

[RabbitUp.8294]

Scepter can easily become condi with minor changes.

Skill 1: New attack chain (3 attacks)→ Same as live→ Same as live→ Does burningSkill 2: Symbol same as live, but the projectiles pierce enemies, instead of being absorbed. Maybe reduce impacts from 8 to 6.Skill 3: Cooldown reduced from 20s to 15s, also does 2 stacks of burning

[LetoII.3782]

A> @RabbitUp.8294 said:

Scepter can easily become condi with minor changes.

Skill 1: New attack chain (3 attacks)→ Same as live→ Same as live→ Does burningSkill 2: Symbol same as live, but the projectiles pierce enemies, instead of being absorbed. Maybe reduce impacts from 8 to 6.Skill 3: Cooldown reduced from 20s to 15s, also does 2 stacks of burningScepter does seem lagging since sword buff. But mace needs love more

[RabbitUp.8294]

Mace needs to be a proper defensive/support weapon. Mace #3 changed to a channeled block, instead of a one-time block.

[Ghotistyx.6942]

Every weapon can be a condi weapon with Permeating Wrath. Works better with high attack rate or aoe.Mace has the benefit of synergy with Guardian runes and Amplified Wrath as a counterpoint to PW. All symbols can contribute to condi both from vuln and a few burn stacks.

Now, could those be better? Sure, but I don't think they need to be. Sword and Scepter in particular were already good at applying burn in dueling situations, and Staff has the aoe down. Defensive Mace is also decent dueling. I don't think Axe drastically outperforms the rest of the weapons, but it is designed to be better. It would be interesting to see what a ranged condi weapon might look like, both at a 900 and 1200 range.

[Tormod the Fox.2368]

I agree with original poster. One or two of the base weapons need updating to help condi Firebrand. Mace is severely lacking outsdie of support-PvP, and they could change it only for PvE...

[Yannir.4132]

@Tormod the Fox.2368 said:I agree with original poster. One or two of the base weapons need updating to help condi Firebrand. Mace is severely lacking outsdie of support-PvP, and they could change it only for PvE...

ANet won't change the entire functions of skills like that. All splits are number changes, nothing more.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@Ghotistyx.6942 said:Every weapon can be a condi weapon with Permeating Wrath. Works better with high attack rate or aoe.Mace has the benefit of synergy with Guardian runes and Amplified Wrath as a counterpoint to PW. All symbols can contribute to condi both from vuln and a few burn stacks.

Now, could those be better? Sure, but I don't think they need to be. Sword and Scepter in particular were already good at applying burn in dueling situations, and Staff has the aoe down. Defensive Mace is also decent dueling. I don't think Axe drastically outperforms the rest of the weapons, but it is designed to be better. It would be interesting to see what a ranged condi weapon might look like, both at a 900 and 1200 range.

No, not every weapon is a condi weapon, only axe is. You can do condi damage with power weapons, sure, but that's no different from a thief using a power weapon and venoms.

Axe was designed to abuse Permeating Wrath, by having a 6-hit auto chain, on top of the built-in conditions. So, saying that PW works with high attack rate is moot when axe is the weapon with one of the highest attack rates.

The truth remains that axe has no counterpart.

[Justine.6351]

Erm I plan on using sword/shield/gs with my Firebrand.All guardian weapons are condition weapons when build around permeating wrath, some more than others. Sword AA and GS 2 rack up alot of strikes.

[PaperBishop.1574]

Also, the symbols can be traited to deal burning. Also, I think the shattered aegis damage procs count towards justice's passive? Symbol ticks might, too.

[Noah.4756]

I think sword would be a nice candidate to receive conditions. After all, the trait for sword is placed in Radiance which is mostly a specialization focused on conditions. A ranged condition weapon like scepter would make more sense for diversity though. The scepter currently already works well in power builds so any changes to the scepter might negatively impact power builds.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@Noah.4756 said:I think sword would be a nice candidate to receive conditions. After all, the trait for sword is placed in Radiance which is mostly a specialization focused on conditions. A ranged condition weapon like scepter would make more sense for diversity though. The scepter currently already works well in power builds so any changes to the scepter might negatively impact power builds.

Power builds don't use the skill 3 of scepter, so that's free space for condition builds. Then, with the change I proposed, adding a burn every 3 autoattacks, it will barely increase power dps, but it will make it a solid condi weapon.

@PaperBishop.1574 said:Also, the symbols can be traited to deal burning. Also, I think the shattered aegis damage procs count towards justice's passive? Symbol ticks might, too.

Axe has a symbol, too, so that doesn't make any particular weapon more appealing. The point is not that guardian doesn't have other sources of conditions. It does, all class have traits and skills that inflict conditions. But when it comes to weapons, only axe deals conditions. All outside sources of burning remain the same between weapons, so it's just a clear and significant advantage that axe has.

[phor.7952]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:The point is not that guardian doesn't have other sources of conditions. It does, all class have traits and skills that inflict conditions. But when it comes to weapons, only axe deals conditions. All outside sources of burning remain the same between weapons, so it's just a clear and significant advantage that axe has.

There are only two ways that the other weapons could keep up:1) If they attacked significantly faster (to apply far more burning stacks with permeating wrath) than axe does.2) If they granted a buff or debuff that affects damage such as might or vuln in a significant amount.

But you're correct. Neither of those things are true.

In fact, #1 is the exact opposite. Axe attacks far faster than any other weapon.

So I agree. For Condi-DPS FB, it seems like every other weapon is going to be behind Axe. And not by a small amount either. So it would be nice to see a couple tweaks to give at least a secondary weapon option.

[LetoII.3782]

Axe does have disadvantages inherent. Scepter has range and sword has gap closers, mace... Well that's it's own thing.I'm fairly comfortable with axe having a damage lead on other weapon choices, as that's literally all it's offering.

[Tormod the Fox.2368]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Ghotistyx.6942 said:Every weapon can be a condi weapon with Permeating Wrath. Works better with high attack rate or aoe.Mace has the benefit of synergy with Guardian runes and Amplified Wrath as a counterpoint to PW. All symbols can contribute to condi both from vuln and a few burn stacks.

Now, could those be better? Sure, but I don't think they need to be. Sword and Scepter in particular were already good at applying burn in dueling situations, and Staff has the aoe down. Defensive Mace is also decent dueling. I don't think Axe drastically outperforms the rest of the weapons, but it is designed to be better. It would be interesting to see what a ranged condi weapon might look like, both at a 900 and 1200 range.

No, not every weapon is a condi weapon, only axe is. You can do condi damage with power weapons, sure, but that's no different from a thief using a power weapon and venoms.

Axe was designed to abuse Permeating Wrath, by having a 6-hit auto chain, on top of the built-in conditions. So, saying that PW works with high attack rate is moot when axe is the weapon with one of the highest attack rates.

The truth remains that axe has no counterpart.

You do know that going off Wiki data, and tooltip info that Axe and Sword both have the same exact attack speed on Auto-Attack? Axe Auto-Attack does have one extra hit which is a total of 6x instead of 5x sword AA. But, you are right about the Axe being only condi wpn available to Guards since Axe is the only one applying conditions directly. By the way I am on your side of the argument, I just needed to correct that misinformation there.

[Tormod the Fox.2368]

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Tormod the Fox.2368 said:I agree with original poster. One or two of the base weapons need updating to help condi Firebrand. Mace is severely lacking outsdie of support-PvP, and they could change it only for PvE...

Anet won't change the entire functions of skills like that. All splits are number changes, nothing more.

No, they probably will not change weapons like I suggested, but they should.

**edit: What I don't understand since beginning of GW2, is that weapons pigeon-hole us into certain archetypes. I want to play Guard Mace, but it is too slow and can only be considered for PvP bunker builds. Why can I not choose Guard Mace and do decent condi damage in the process? If Anet really wants to progress, they should make weapon skills select-able like utility skills. They've been trying to do this with traits (i.g. DareDevil grand-master trait choice changes how dodge works with each having it's own game play choice), but it's just not enough choice power for the players.

[draxynnic.3719]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Noah.4756 said:I think sword would be a nice candidate to receive conditions. After all, the trait for sword is placed in Radiance which is mostly a specialization focused on conditions. A ranged condition weapon like scepter would make more sense for diversity though. The scepter currently already works well in power builds so any changes to the scepter might negatively impact power builds.

Power builds don't use the skill 3 of scepter, so that's free space for condition builds. Then, with the change I proposed, adding a burn every 3 autoattacks, it will barely increase power dps, but it will make it a solid condi weapon.

They don't? Maybe not as part of a standard rotation in PvE, unless for a breakbar or there is some other reason to want immobilise, but immobilise is definitely useful in any situation where your target might actually try to get out of that symbol you just dropped at their feet.

[otto.5684]

I do not see any reason for either sword or scepter to change. Neither is a condi weapon and they do not need to be. We do not want to screw with already working weapons skills just cuz FB does not work great with power builds.

[Tormod the Fox.2368]

@otto.5684 said:I do not see any reason for either sword or scepter to change. Neither is a condi weapon and they do not need to be. We do not want to screw with already working weapons skills just cuz FB does not work great with power builds.

Yes, but do you see how anything but axe on a firebrand is a dps loss? I say they rework one of the old weapons; mace would be best suited for change in my opinion since they already have 1 support weapon the staff.

[Fipmip.7219]

If hammer and greatsword are supposed to be the heavy hitters, then hammer should be the condi version of greatsword

[Ghotistyx.6942]

@Fipmip.7219 said:If hammer and greatsword are supposed to be the heavy hitters, then hammer should be the condi version of greatsword

Glacial Heart renamed to Frostburn."Burn foes you Chill. Chill foes you disable. Hammer skills have 20% cooldown. "

But Hammer won't easily be able to best GS as a two handed condition dealer. VoJ is the main source of burning between the two and GS can proc it much more easily by nature of its attacks. I'd rather see GS improved a but in that category than Hammer since its already so close. Binding Blade could stand to add some ticks in addition to its current condition damage scaling. Maybe a few on both BB and the Pull.

[Kuya.6495]

Noah's comment is the best comment. Sword makes the most sense since its traits are in the radiance line but axe is already a good melee condi weapon, so i agree scepter is a good candidate. The zeal line already offers condi buffs so i imagine the only thing left to do would be to add condi to either aa or the symbol and change the vulnerability on immobilize trait to offer something like bleeds on immobilize.

[Fipmip.7219]

@Ghotistyx.6942 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:If hammer and greatsword are supposed to be the heavy hitters, then hammer should be the condi version of greatsword

Glacial Heart renamed to Frostburn."Burn foes you Chill. Chill foes you disable. Hammer skills have 20% cooldown. "

But Hammer won't easily be able to best GS as a two handed condition dealer. VoJ is the main source of burning between the two and GS can proc it much more easily by nature of its attacks. I'd rather see GS improved a but in that category than Hammer since its already so close. Binding Blade could stand to add some ticks in addition to its current condition damage scaling. Maybe a few on both BB and the Pull.

That's true, but as it stands hammer is kind of left in the dust when it comes to damage or utility. I'd like to see burn stacks on the hammer autos like with axe, to bring it up to par. GS users are usually power anyway and gain minimal benefit from the virtue, whereas a hammer with burning autos would synergize well, especially with firebrands. It would definitely be helpful when out of ToJ pages

[Ghotistyx.6942]

@Fipmip.7219 said:That's true, but as it stands hammer is kind of left in the dust when it comes to damage or utility. I'd like to see burn stacks on the hammer autos like with axe, to bring it up to par. GS users are usually power anyway and gain minimal benefit from the virtue, whereas a hammer with burning autos would synergize well, especially with firebrands. It would definitely be helpful when out of ToJ pages

It doesn't matter what usually happens. Hammer and Mace (class wide weapons) were both usually power until HoT which brought the option to run condi if you were warrior or revenant. Putting burn on an auto attack doesn't create any synergy, it just adds more burn stacks. However, Guardian's GS does synergize with with VoJ because of its multi strike nature. WW can hit 42 times, which can get you 14 stacks from VoJ. With GS, you're looking at max 10.6 stacks per second between aa, WW, and traited symbol. Hammer is looking at 9.19 per second (I averaged stacks granted by each skill and divided it by chain completion time for aa, or skill recharge otherwise). Symbolic Power is where Hammer synergizes with burning, getting an additional 1.8 (11 total) stacks while GS gets 0.58 (11.2). However, in order to maximize burning you'll need Zeal, Radiance, and Virtues which leaves no room for Honor to get Writ of Persistence, and that significantly affects Hammer (-1.79) more than GS (-0.58) because you're losing stacks from both the symbol and Symbolic Power. Quickness from Firebrand would change things in favor of Hammer when solo, but you have to invest both in the Firebrand traitline (dropping yet another traitline) and boon duration. GS isn't nearly as affected by quickness uptime. Against a single target you're looking at 1.89 for Hammer vs 1.47-1.72 for GS depending on WW projectiles (yes Symb pow, no Writ).

[otto.5684]

@Tormod the Fox.2368 said:

@otto.5684 said:I do not see any reason for either sword or scepter to change. Neither is a condi weapon and they do not need to be. We do not want to screw with already working weapons skills just cuz FB does not work great with power builds.

Yes, but do you see how anything but axe on a firebrand is a dps loss? I say they rework one of the old weapons; mace would be best suited for change in my opinion since they already have 1 support weapon the staff.

A better solution in my opinion is to change Stoic Demeanor, FB grand master, to something supporting power builds. I think that will be easier, work with variety more weapons. Overall better than trying to re-create the wheel on sword or scepter, with a strong possibility of ruining other functional builds.