Revenant upcoming changes civil discussion

[arnitheking.8427]

I fully understand the hammer nerf(s), but I think the kalla buffs are again not in the right direction :/ sure eventually by buffing numbers kalla will be useful in pvp, but in wvw it's STILL not useful due to the summons getting destroyed all the time

EDIT: I really like the jalis /mallyx changes though

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Sorry, I've been out of the loop. First, HOW DARE YOU DEMAND CIVIL DISCUSSION!!! DEMANDING SUCH INSINUATES THAT I AM NORMALLY NOT CIVIL!!!

But seriously, I have no clue what this threads is in reference to.

[arnitheking.8427]

oh sry it's about the new proposed pvp/wvw changes (it's in the pvp subforum)

[Doctor.1384]

This is copy and pasted from the post in the pvp forum

PvP/WvW Skill SplitHi folks! The Competitive team and the Skills & Balance team have been working together closely on a future balance release that focuses almost entirely on PvP and WvW skill splits. As part of this, we wanted to switch things up and approach this release similar to how we approached the PvP sigil changes we did a while back, when we released our first draft of the proposed changes.

With this set of proposed changes, we'd like to get your thoughts and ideas on both our high level goals and how we're going about accomplishing them. You guys may bring up concerns or thoughts we didn't consider. While reviewing these changes, please consider them as a whole rather than focusing on individual classes.

We're looking forward to a productive discussion!

High Level Goals

Reduce influence of passive traits. (PvP not WvW)

Passive skills make the game less skillful.The prevalence of passives is a common competitive player complaint. (PvP only)Increase build diversity

By decreasing the power of some of the more dominant builds, we hope to give increased viability to builds that previously were pushed out by these dominant specs. We're also increasing power levels in some targeted areas that previously were underperforming.Reduce effectiveness of offensive instant cast skills/traits

Instant cast spells don't give players an opportunity to respond. While we don't want to remove combos utilizing instant cast abilities, we wanted to reduce the impact they have.General

Rune of Surging has been removed from the PvP build panelMagi Amulet has been removed from the PvP build panel

Revenant

Skills

Coalescence of Ruin: Reduced the power coefficient of the second impact from 1.75 to 1.5 (-14%) in WvW only. Reduced the power coefficient of the third impact from 2.25 to 1.75 (-22%) in WvW only.Razorclaw's Rage: Increased the Bleeding duration from 2 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP and WvWIcerazor's Ire: Increased the Power coefficient from 3.7 to 4.6 (+24%) in PvP and WvWSoothing Stone: Increased the number of conditions cleansed from 3 to 5 in PvP and WvWVengeful Hammers: Reduced the upkeep cost from 7 to 6 in PvP and WvWForced Engagement: Reduced the energy cost from 25 to 10. Increased the cooldown from 10 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvWEmbrace the Darkness: Increased the attribute bonus from 10% to 15% in PvP and WvWBanish Enchantments: Increased the number of boons removed from 2 to 3 in PvP and WvWPain Absorption: Reduced the energy cost from 35 to 30 in PvP and WvWTraits

Eye for an Eye: Increased the cooldown from 45 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP onlyVersed in Stone: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP onlySoothing Bastion: Increased the cooldown from 25 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP only

[Doctor.1384]

Most of these are good changes, however I dont like the changes to forced engagement, legend skills need as few and as low cooldowns as possible if any. Mallyx and shiro are good examples of this. The prior forced engagement was better and would have been balanced if there was no energy cost at all.

These changes are trying to make the dwarf/demon frontline rev build more viable. this is good since as a soldier profession we should be able to hold our own in front lines in wvw.

[narcx.3570]

They could make all the Jalis skills cost zero energy and I probably still wouldn't use it because you'd still be leaving yourself super vulnerable to being completely shutdown and annihilated by all the immob spam out there.

[arnitheking.8427]

@narcx.3570 said:They could make all the Jalis skills cost zero energy and I probably still wouldn't use it because you'd still be leaving yourself super vulnerable to being completely shutdown and annihilated by all the immob spam out there.

if you're talking about pvp idk, but in wvw EVERY team oriented rev build now uses jalis, either jalis/mallyx renegade or Jalis/glint herald, look at the top eu gvg guilds and wherever else, jalis is more or less hard meta, mostly because of the elite

[ArthurDent.9538]

Kind of disappointing that there wasn't any attempt to try to compensate the retribution nerfs considering the line is already pretty bad. Regardless this patch will help rev quite a bit in pvp as most meta builds are going to receive significant nerfs (except mesmer for some reason XD) while we only had non meta things nerfed and no more surging runes which makes me sad.

Also have to echo Doctor's opinion on forced engagement it goes in the opposite direction of how rev utilities should go where they are short cd but gated by energy. It is like reducing thief initiative cost for a skill but giving it a cooldown, it just goes against what is unique about the class and makes it feel homogenized. Forced engagement isn't worth the current 25 energy, but that is because it is just a really weak utility compared to the alternatives.

[arnitheking.8427]

I agree with you on the forced engagement part, it's ok in pvp on points I guess but in wvw it's not that strong, since the stab applied has a low duration and zergs are usually very mobile, so I dislike the cd increase tbh

EDIT: mistook it for the road lol, hate when they dont add skill pictures, and yeah it this case it sucks

[narcx.3570]

Clipped...

[narcx.3570]

@arnitheking.8427 said:if you're talking about pvp idk, but in wvw EVERY team oriented rev build now uses jalis, either jalis/mallyx renegade or Jalis/glint herald, look at the top eu gvg guilds and wherever else, jalis is more or less hard meta, mostly because of the elite

I was talking sPvP... or I guess WvW Roaming.

Zerg wars and the pirate ship meta never really appealed to me.

@arnitheking.8427 said:I agree with you on the forced engagement part, it's ok in pvp on points I guess but in wvw it's not that strong, since the stab applied has a low duration and zergs are usually very mobile, so I dislike the cd increase tbh

Forced Engagement is the Taunt, Inspiring Reinforcements is the stab road.... So now it's a more usable cc (being only 10 energy), but you can only realistically use it once per Jalis rotation instead of twice with that 20sec cooldown. Unless yer camping Jalis for 20 seconds or something.--but then you have much bigger problems going on.

[arnitheking.8427]

yeah playing jalis in pvp leaves you too vulnerable to thieves and mesmers, and for roaming you lack the mobility anyways

[Buran.3796]

@Doctor.1384 said:This is copy and pasted from the post in the pvp forum

Coalescence of Ruin: Reduced the power coefficient of the second impact from 1.75 to 1.5 (-14%) in WvW only. Reduced the power coefficient of the third impact from 2.25 to 1.75 (-22%) in WvW only.

All the other changes I don't care about because are from traits and skills I'll never use, but this one makes me angry becase it basically nullifies Swift Termination (so you need to use the trait to have the same damage that you had without the trait). The Impossible Odds nerf, the nerf in vulnerability procs which also nerfed the procs of fury an therefore both our damage and our survability and now this? ANet: if you're so unhappy with Rev in WvW just erase the class, don't slowly dismantle Rev piece by piece.

Also, condition Rev is trash: I tried it for a while before Retribution traitline was butchered in October 2016 and was mediocre; after PoF is just crap. None of those changes would make condi Rev stand a chance vs competitive builds in PvP/WvW. Seriously, if they touch CoR I won't step in WvW again.

[Echoherb.6528]

Most people don't pvp and have no clue what changes are happening, maybe link the topic here?

[Buran.3796]

Here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29690/pvp-wvw-skill-split-release#latest

[arnitheking.8427]

condi rev is actually ok for small scale roaming in wvw mostly because trailblazer/dire exist there lul. But in pvp it's fodder for any ganking build

[Buran.3796]

@arnitheking.8427 said:condi rev is actually ok for small scale roaming in wvw mostly because trailblazer/dire exist there lul. But in pvp it's fodder for any ganking build

Any class is ok for small scale roaming as long is surrounded by Guardians providing stab, cleansing and support of all kind and you have another teammates doing the ranged damage and/or cc. But when you roam alone with a class with no stab, barely any cleanses and mobility linked to the spent of energy on top of cooldowns and you get your only ranged weapon nerfed several times in a row the chances is that as species you will fade.

Rev already is not wanted in PvP, and if the CoR nerfs become real will dissapear from WvW guilds and small scale roaming. Or at least as a commander I won't want a Rev wasting a slot in my raid under the landscape of that patch.

[Clownmug.8357]

@arnitheking.8427 said:condi rev is actually ok for small scale roaming in wvw mostly because trailblazer/dire exist there lul. But in pvp it's fodder for any ganking build

The trailblazer/dire gear doesn't mean much when they're limited to melee range attacks. I've killed a few by just auto-ing them with a shortbow. So even in wvw it's probably not that good if a renegade of all things can beat it.

[Vyrulisse.1246]

Sevenshot still exists and it's still garbage. I hope that's civil... :\

[arnitheking.8427]

but renegade is a revenanttho. when I wrote condi rev, I meant condi anything that has to do with rev. currently I'm playing corru 2-2-3 invo 3-1-1 rene 2-2-2 sb / mace/axe with tb/dire mix and viper weapons with 10% dmg reduction food etc. in wvw and it works rather well (shiro/mallyx when solo, mallyx/jalis sometimes when with some allies)

[Clownmug.8357]

Oh, I was thinking of mace + axe / staff and glint/mallyx as the typical condi rev.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

"Soothing Stone: Increased the number of conditions cleansed from 3 to 5 in PvP and WvW"This is really a nice change. However, like many other said before, jallis is food for any roaming build.

[Rym.1469]

A bunch of acceptable changes, but nothing that will impact PvP in a major way, apart from the rune loss (other classes do lose more though).

Jalis will probably need a third elite specialization to see the light or a miracle of core revenant being able to rival Herald. Apart from stunbreak being in the wrong place it's not bad, but Glint has a full hp heal, convenient stunbreak, poke damage, burst damage and burst damage with CC that also stops rezzes. Other legends don't compare with this amount of utility.Mallyx thrives in a meta with little boon corruption and a lot of condition damage. While the first part might come true, as you're nerfing Scourge every patch, Scourge is also the only common condition build in PvP. Condition revenant has a terrible track record of dealing with power classes, since it's just a revenant without defensives/mobility of power revenant. Mercenary stats avalible to condi rev could fix it.

EDIT: Scrap the wall of text. The essential Renegade feedback here is this: As far as PvP goes, buff after buff is a a brick after brick added to a wall that stands in a middle of nowhere and won't protect the city.I have nothing against buffs to Renegade as long as in six months Icerazor doesn't oneshot players in range. Maybe some people enjoy goofing around and this helps. But we have to acknowledge that Renegade's issues go past cooldowns, Energy costs and damage numbers. If the intent is to make it viable, the Skill team, not competitive teamm will have make it happen and it will be a lot of work, since right now about half of the new Renegade skills across mechanics, shortbow skills and legend skills are not worth spending Energy on not because of numbers but because of how they function. And traits can't enable something Herald condi rev is not capable of.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Only played Hammer Rev in WvW so i can kill Scourge. Mhh maybe i should change to Weaver or Soulbeast to kill the cancer thats Scourge.

RiP CoR was nice to know you.

[arnitheking.8427]

@"Rym.1469" said:A bunch of acceptable changes, but nothing that will impact PvP in a major way, apart from the rune loss (other classes do lose more though).

Jalis will probably need a third elite specialization to see the light or a miracle of core revenant being able to rival Herald. Apart from stunbreak being in the wrong place it's not bad, but Glint has a full hp heal, convenient stunbreak, poke damage, burst damage and burst damage with CC that also stops rezzes. Other legends don't compare with this amount of utility.Mallyx thrives in a meta with little boon corruption and a lot of condition damage. While the first part might come true, as you're nerfing Scourge every patch, Scourge is also the only common condition build in PvP. Condition revenant has a terrible track record of dealing with power classes, since it's just a revenant without defensives/mobility of power revenant. Mercenary stats avalible to condi rev could fix it.

EDIT: Scrap the wall of text. The essential Renegade feedback here is this: As far as PvP goes, buff after buff is a a brick after brick added to a wall that stands in a middle of nowhere and won't protect the city.I have nothing against buffs to Renegade as long as in six months Icerazor doesn't oneshot players in range. Maybe some people enjoy goofing around and this helps. But we have to acknowledge that Renegade's issues go past cooldowns, Energy costs and damage numbers. If the intent is to make it viable, the Skill team, not competitive teamm will have make it happen and it will be a lot of work, since right now about half of the new Renegade skills across mechanics, shortbow skills and legend skills are not worth spending Energy on not because of numbers but because of how they function. And traits can't enable something Herald condi rev is not capable of.

100 % agree with this, I wish we would get some feedback on renegade at some point..It needs some serious reworks imo. and I think the majority of the community agrees on that (just look at the polls in the "profession" subforum)