broken damage numbers

[BeLZedaR.4790]

@Patrick.2987 said:Broken sustain numbers:Firebrand, Druid, Spellbreaker

Broken amount of cc:Druid, Thief, Holosmith, Warrior

Broken evade frame numbers:Mesmer, Thief, Revenant

Broken stability uptime:Firebrand, Holosmith, Mesmer on some builds

Broken mobility:Thief, Mesmer, Revenant

Broken damage numbers:Guard, Necro (except core), Ele (fresh air), Thief, Mesmer, Revenant

Maybe i forgot something to list.

In each of those categories some are better than others (broken tier, holyshitwhyisthisathing tier). The real offenders are those that are better than others in multiple categories, thief and mesmer.

Also mesmer CC on some builds.

[Kasdwer.3721]

@Patrick.2987 said:Broken sustain numbers:Firebrand, Druid, Spellbreaker

Broken amount of cc:Druid, Thief, Holosmith, Warrior

Broken evade frame numbers:Mesmer, Thief, Revenant

Broken stability uptime:Firebrand, Holosmith, Mesmer on some builds

Broken mobility:Thief, Mesmer, Revenant

Broken damage numbers:Guard, Necro (except core), Ele (fresh air), Thief, Mesmer, Revenant

Maybe i forgot something to list.

Broken evade Rev? Broken Mobility Rev? Broken dmg Rev? broken stability uptime mes? Broken cc thief?what are you smoking?also you kinda forgot scourge in the entire list, cuz if we balance around this list only, thief/mesmer/rev would need nerfs and scourge/fb would be fine

[Jinks.2057]

@Razor.6392 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:too slow1 second too slow on something completely unexpected.

He had time to react and didn't. Once you hear and see the Power Lock you hit your stun break/invuln/block/evade frames/etc. Now if you show me a out of stealth instant 100-0 shatter combo then yes I'll say that's a good example.

[Jinks.2057]

@Kahyos.1437 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:1st video he had a chance to use his stone signet but was too slow2nd video guardian almost lasted a full minute standing still in the middle of the point3rd video the person got rekt by 2 people

I dont see these as a good representation of your point as all 3 could have easily been preventable. In the 1st video you see obvious time for him to react. Then 2nd video should be self explanatory since he stood still in the middle of the point failing to even turn his camera to track the thief's movement. The 3rd video is of someone having really bad situational awareness and being smoked by 2 ppl

I have to disagree with you on the first vid. The fact that he had a VERY little window to not get downed is not balanced at all. What's more, the build that got bursted was far from a glass build. And all that from a stealth attack. That was a low risk high reward play, and on plat rating.

No he had enough time. More than enough. You can disagree but the fact is the damage wasn't instant and came with very definite visual & auditory cues of what was coming.

Which tough/vit amulet was the fella using that makes him tanky to burst damage?

Where was his stone form? I'm assuming he either A wasn't running it or B had it trigger already.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Kahyos.1437 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:1st video he had a chance to use his stone signet but was too slow2nd video guardian almost lasted a full minute standing still in the middle of the point3rd video the person got rekt by 2 people

I dont see these as a good representation of your point as all 3 could have easily been preventable. In the 1st video you see obvious time for him to react. Then 2nd video should be self explanatory since he stood still in the middle of the point failing to even turn his camera to track the thief's movement. The 3rd video is of someone having really bad situational awareness and being smoked by 2 ppl

I have to disagree with you on the first vid. The fact that he had a VERY little window to not get downed is not balanced at all. What's more, the build that got bursted was far from a glass build. And all that from a stealth attack. That was a low risk high reward play, and on plat rating.

No he had enough time. More than enough. You can disagree but the fact is the damage wasn't instant and came with very definite visual & auditory cues of what was coming.

Which tough/vit amulet was the fella using that makes him tanky to burst damage?

Where was his stone form? I'm assuming he either A wasn't running it or B had it trigger already.

Not to mention if you watch you see purple flames about a second before you see the power lock animation. He has plenty of time to react but is too focused on chasing and downing the player off point.

[Patrick.2987]

@Kasdwer.3721 said:

@Patrick.2987 said:Broken sustain numbers:Firebrand, Druid, Spellbreaker

Broken amount of cc:Druid, Thief, Holosmith, Warrior

Broken evade frame numbers:Mesmer, Thief, Revenant

Broken stability uptime:Firebrand, Holosmith, Mesmer on some builds

Broken mobility:Thief, Mesmer, Revenant

Broken damage numbers:Guard, Necro (except core), Ele (fresh air), Thief, Mesmer, Revenant

Maybe i forgot something to list.

Broken evade Rev? Broken Mobility Rev? Broken dmg Rev? broken stability uptime mes? Broken cc thief?what are you smoking?also you kinda forgot scourge in the entire list, cuz if we balance around this list only, thief/mesmer/rev would need nerfs and scourge/fb would be fine

'Broken damage: Necro' includes scourge. Revenant has higher mobility than most professions and also evade frames from sword, staff 5 and dodge utility make it have more evade frames than most professions. This list does not tell if some professions are weak in some aspects, it just shows in which aspects some professions overperform compared to others. Obviously Thief is stronger than revenant preventing it beeing used alot and also the missing condi clears make it not an often seen pick aswell. Also if other broken stuff is nerfed, the weaknesses might be less obvious. Some chrono builds have like perma stability even often more than 1 stack at a time. Thief with double steal or headshotspam, pistolwhip, venom etc. also has more access to cc than many other specs. But of course as belzedar pointed out some professions are more dominant in some aspects than others.

[Kasdwer.3721]

but thats why the entire list is irrlevant, "overperforming" in certain aspect is literally the diversity classes has and why they are different classes to begin with, you wanna nerf rev mobility? you wanna give rev more condi cleanse and tankyness in return? do it with every class and after that every class will feel the same with no difference, the entire idea of having classes is that some of them perform better in certain aspects but worse in others

the entire list means nothing when the classes that overperform also has clear weaknesses

[Kahyos.1437]

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Kahyos.1437 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:1st video he had a chance to use his stone signet but was too slow2nd video guardian almost lasted a full minute standing still in the middle of the point3rd video the person got rekt by 2 people

I dont see these as a good representation of your point as all 3 could have easily been preventable. In the 1st video you see obvious time for him to react. Then 2nd video should be self explanatory since he stood still in the middle of the point failing to even turn his camera to track the thief's movement. The 3rd video is of someone having really bad situational awareness and being smoked by 2 ppl

I have to disagree with you on the first vid. The fact that he had a VERY little window to not get downed is not balanced at all. What's more, the build that got bursted was far from a glass build. And all that from a stealth attack. That was a low risk high reward play, and on plat rating.

No he had enough time. More than enough. You can disagree but the fact is the damage wasn't instant and came with very definite visual & auditory cues of what was coming.

Which tough/vit amulet was the fella using that makes him tanky to burst damage?

Where was his stone form? I'm assuming he either A wasn't running it or B had it trigger already.

He has a video where he was using paladin's amulet to take advantage of Oppressive Superiority. Also, I don't recall him running stone signet. I think he uses dolyak stance for sustain.

[MyPuppy.8970]

No one complains about renegade.=>Balance all specs to renegade level.=>No one complains anymore.

I fixed the game.

[Razor.6392]

Is "you didn't react in time" the new meme that mesmer mains are gonna vomit now? I play at 150ms due to location, so I guess I'm fully fucked and should submit myself to the 100-0 nuke overlords?

:lol:

[Mr Godlike.6098]

I will give strange opinion...nobody really need's support in this game...let me explain...

Why firbrand is viable in pvp? Bacuse socruge need's it...and nobody else....this the same story as it was with tempest...

What's reason to be be firebrand in team without scourge if:

• Druid should get outnumbered...and shouldn't ask for help in that to stay alive...if he's too long in 1v1 he should get help from thief to get node fast instead wasting time on uncapped/caped node...what help from firebrand changes?
• Spellbraker - almost the same
• Holo- barely the same situation.
• Mirage - +1 everything or try to contest node if you are that good still you get nothing from extra life insurance ekem...firebrand
• Thief should never 1v1 or just +1 stuff ...so what he gains by helping his friendly firebrand? Life insurance in basically 1v1 - and that's big waste of potential of thief.

Who need's really firebrand? And what he can do to carry his team? Looks like anet nerfs are clear...firebrand will be heal bot...without any possibility to do something on his own to reward players for carrying matches...As somebody that HAD TO play tempest healbot (that was in the same relation with reaper)...reducing support abilities to just carry scourges ....it just boring...and just makes whole support healer idea purely a joke.

[Jinks.2057]

@Kahyos.1437 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Kahyos.1437 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:1st video he had a chance to use his stone signet but was too slow2nd video guardian almost lasted a full minute standing still in the middle of the point3rd video the person got rekt by 2 people

I dont see these as a good representation of your point as all 3 could have easily been preventable. In the 1st video you see obvious time for him to react. Then 2nd video should be self explanatory since he stood still in the middle of the point failing to even turn his camera to track the thief's movement. The 3rd video is of someone having really bad situational awareness and being smoked by 2 ppl

I have to disagree with you on the first vid. The fact that he had a VERY little window to not get downed is not balanced at all. What's more, the build that got bursted was far from a glass build. And all that from a stealth attack. That was a low risk high reward play, and on plat rating.

No he had enough time. More than enough. You can disagree but the fact is the damage wasn't instant and came with very definite visual & auditory cues of what was coming.

Which tough/vit amulet was the fella using that makes him tanky to burst damage?

Where was his stone form? I'm assuming he either A wasn't running it or B had it trigger already.

He has a video where he was using paladin's amulet to take advantage of Oppressive Superiority. Also, I don't recall him running stone signet. I think he uses dolyak stance for sustain.

Stone form is the passive that triggers lesser stone signet when you are less than 50% health.

All this complaining about burst damage being out of control fails to take into consideration how many passive traits are in the game to save your ass.

[Rufo.3716]

Biggest problem is there is to much stealth and to much mobility. All this needs to be toned down by at least half. So maybe sometimes you can at least see the bursts coming and defend yourself. That and most of these problems could have been prevented by a public test server. But apparently Anet is either to stubborn, or to stupid, to realize it would benefit the game. They could have avoided all these pathetic excuses for balance patches they've released lately that drove away most every decent player in the game. Instead they now are changing everything to no skill BS crap. Mesmer at least used to take some skill to play, now it's just mash a few buttons and you can do just fine.

[Mr Godlike.6098]

@"Rufo.3716" said:Biggest problem is there is to much stealth and to much mobility. All this needs to be toned down by at least half. So maybe sometimes you can at least see the bursts coming and defend yourself. That and most of these problems could have been prevented by a public test server. But apparently Anet is either to stubborn, or to stupid, to realize it would benefit the game. They could have avoided all these pathetic excuses for balance patches they've released lately that drove away most every decent player in the game. Instead they now are changing everything to no skill BS crap. Mesmer at least used to take some skill to play, now it's just mash a few buttons and you can do just fine.

Interesting...

So when match is about to start...i click one button and i see...ow they have a thief...so i know if won't win my 1v1 fast i will be +1 by thief...And then i'am stuck 1v1 and get bursted by thief....i guess by your explanation i should be totally surprised...yea I spend few minutes in one places 1v1 with my important stuff on cool down and i should be surprised how ,,unpredictable" enemy thief behaved.

But seriously speaking test servers seems to be to good idea - or just short patch betas. Although if i would be Anet I would have the same issues as ever probably - who's feedback we should listen.

But...what this has to do with issue - how pointless is playing ranked as firebrand...or any support build.

[Swagg.9236]

@Blackjack.5621 said:When ele and core guardian do burst people on 30 second cooldowns without extraordinary disengage ability the risk/reward may be justified,

No it's not. Even then, considering the fact that GW2 effectively aims everything for you, doling out free kills to people every 30s, even if they die themselves is basically what Call of Duty does. It's just a respawn simulator. There is no skill or self-expression in any of it. The only reason that core guardian or fresh air aren't respectively meta is because their hard counters which comprise the metagame are just too invincible that they effortlessly (and often automatically) survive for protracted periods of time against all incoming effects. Core guardian and fresh air are still just as shamelessly devoid of any player skill as anything else even if they can't magically get away from combat after face-rolling on someone (with or without success).

[Kahyos.1437]

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Kahyos.1437 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Kahyos.1437 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:1st video he had a chance to use his stone signet but was too slow2nd video guardian almost lasted a full minute standing still in the middle of the point3rd video the person got rekt by 2 people

I dont see these as a good representation of your point as all 3 could have easily been preventable. In the 1st video you see obvious time for him to react. Then 2nd video should be self explanatory since he stood still in the middle of the point failing to even turn his camera to track the thief's movement. The 3rd video is of someone having really bad situational awareness and being smoked by 2 ppl

I have to disagree with you on the first vid. The fact that he had a VERY little window to not get downed is not balanced at all. What's more, the build that got bursted was far from a glass build. And all that from a stealth attack. That was a low risk high reward play, and on plat rating.

No he had enough time. More than enough. You can disagree but the fact is the damage wasn't instant and came with very definite visual & auditory cues of what was coming.

Which tough/vit amulet was the fella using that makes him tanky to burst damage?

Where was his stone form? I'm assuming he either A wasn't running it or B had it trigger already.

He has a video where he was using paladin's amulet to take advantage of Oppressive Superiority. Also, I don't recall him running stone signet. I think he uses dolyak stance for sustain.

Stone form is the passive that triggers lesser stone signet when you are less than 50% health.

All this complaining about burst damage being out of control fails to take into consideration how many passive traits are in the game to save your kitten.

Well, the goal of the latest balance patch is to be less reliant on passives, which is really boring gameplay. Nerf passives, and nerf bursts.

[Mr Godlike.6098]

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Blackjack.5621 said:When ele and core guardian do burst people on 30 second cooldowns without extraordinary disengage ability the risk/reward may be justified,

No it's not. Even then, considering the fact that GW2 effectively aims everything for you, doling out free kills to people every 30s, even if they die themselves is basically what Call of Duty does. It's just a respawn simulator. There is no skill or self-expression in any of it. The only reason that core guardian or fresh air aren't respectively meta is because their hard counters which comprise the metagame are just too invincible that they effortlessly (and often automatically) survive for protracted periods of time against all incoming effects. Core guardian and fresh air are still just as shamelessly devoid of any player skill as anything else even if they can't magically get away from combat after face-rolling on someone (with or without success).

Nope...

As BlackJack said FA weaver or core guard can't compete with meta because there are to slow...and that's all.When you +1 somebody in conquest it means generally you join 1v1 to make it uneven in worst possible time for enemy player...So when I +1 enemy Spellbraker that spend half a day on my close vs somebody - i know that everything important he's has should be on cooldown..so he will meltAnd all it's fault of that spellbraker...that he wasted time and didn't win his 1v1....casue he would easily would 1v1 freshweaver...cause all +1 build like thiefs have the same issue:

useless if team can't create fights and everyone, everywhere are dead.

Counters are important for 1v1 classes like holo but it has nothing to do with +1 build that never ever should 1v1...it's not their role....it's waste of time...and case of build's like fresh weaver, d/p thief ect...almost always suicide.

So how about you stop talking about games that have nothing to do with Gw 2 Conquest?

[Jinks.2057]

@Kahyos.1437 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Kahyos.1437 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Kahyos.1437 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:1st video he had a chance to use his stone signet but was too slow2nd video guardian almost lasted a full minute standing still in the middle of the point3rd video the person got rekt by 2 people

I dont see these as a good representation of your point as all 3 could have easily been preventable. In the 1st video you see obvious time for him to react. Then 2nd video should be self explanatory since he stood still in the middle of the point failing to even turn his camera to track the thief's movement. The 3rd video is of someone having really bad situational awareness and being smoked by 2 ppl

I have to disagree with you on the first vid. The fact that he had a VERY little window to not get downed is not balanced at all. What's more, the build that got bursted was far from a glass build. And all that from a stealth attack. That was a low risk high reward play, and on plat rating.

No he had enough time. More than enough. You can disagree but the fact is the damage wasn't instant and came with very definite visual & auditory cues of what was coming.

Which tough/vit amulet was the fella using that makes him tanky to burst damage?

Where was his stone form? I'm assuming he either A wasn't running it or B had it trigger already.

He has a video where he was using paladin's amulet to take advantage of Oppressive Superiority. Also, I don't recall him running stone signet. I think he uses dolyak stance for sustain.

Stone form is the passive that triggers lesser stone signet when you are less than 50% health.

All this complaining about burst damage being out of control fails to take into consideration how many passive traits are in the game to save your kitten.

Well, the goal of the latest balance patch is to be less reliant on passives, which is really boring gameplay. Nerf passives, and nerf bursts.

They're still there to save you and you'll have it 1-2x a fight which is more than enough to not die

[KeoLegend.5132]

good thing about pvp is that you can be anything.so if you are getting one shotted by mês, become a mês yourself.

I main pvp with a power shatter Chrono and sometimes a mirage insta-kill me. I tried to become one of them but i couldn't 100-0 ppl as fast, so it must take some skill involved.

And balance is impossible because as much as we have some 100-0 builds we also have infinite sustain builds and such

[DeceiverX.8361]

Trust me, even a good number of thieves want the S/D unblockable spammable damage nonsense to end.
The problem is that blocks are so spammable and that there's so much mitigation in the game that it's the only build that currently works. This is particularly the case for Firebrand; S/D thief is the only thing that actually counters it.Unfortunately, ANet seems to have trouble giving the thief any semblance of weapon diversity/identity/general use; their solution so far is to just massively buff damage on other-spammable skills like Shadow Shot and Heartseeker.

Mirage is a problem in general by its design. Even disregarding EM, the fact it can dodge during stuns and become damage immune for those durations makes it impossible to punish. The burst is whatever. Its lack of punish potential is not.

Too many builds are capable of dealing immense damage while not taking damage or simply do not have tells or are capable of hiding them, and that's an issue.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@KeoLegend.5132 said:good thing about pvp is that you can be anything.so if you are getting one shotted by mês, become a mês yourself.

I main pvp with a power shatter Chrono and sometimes a mirage insta-kill me. I tried to become one of them but i couldn't 100-0 ppl as fast, so it must take some skill involved.

And balance is impossible because as much as we have some 100-0 builds we also have infinite sustain builds and such

From what I've noticed, it's not that they're good but rather that currently, most of them are macroing because the same combo is always the best one and there's very little skill variance needed between matchups/situations.

[Daishi.6027]

@"Blackjack.5621" said:https://clips.twitch.tv/AcceptableBlazingPeppermintWow medium armor + vitality amulet getting clean oneshot from stealth by a single mesmer.

Was more or less fine, if aware of a burst mes on the map there was plenty of time to pop Lightning Reflexes between it's first appearance and landed burst.Even if mes landed stun, would have broken it, and with sigil of stone off c/d would have been a fighting chance. Plus this took place right in front of enemy base so map awareness, if enemy mes just died plays a factor.Even with vit ammy that's going to be squish with 25 vuln stacks. Only problem I see here is Sigil of Agility, or he was running Seize the moment which is fair.Either way there was time to react, and this wouldn't happen if running a more bulky build.

@"Blackjack.5621" said:https://clips.twitch.tv/TangentialFrozenAdminUWot

What do you expect is going to happen when one build can doge and poke that much with unblockable attacks vs a class that kind of needs those blocks to live?

[thatdarnkatz.7168]

@Mr Godlike.6098 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@"Blackjack.5621" said:When ele and core guardian do burst people on 30 second cooldowns without extraordinary disengage ability the risk/reward may be justified,

No it's not. Even then, considering the fact that GW2 effectively aims everything for you, doling out free kills to people every 30s, even if they die themselves is basically what Call of Duty does. It's just a respawn simulator. There is no skill or self-expression in any of it. The only reason that core guardian or fresh air aren't respectively meta is because their hard counters which comprise the metagame are just too invincible that they effortlessly (and often automatically) survive for protracted periods of time against all incoming effects. Core guardian and fresh air are still just as shamelessly devoid of any player skill as anything else even if they can't magically get away from combat after face-rolling on someone (with or without success).

Nope...

As BlackJack said FA weaver or core guard can't compete with meta because there are to slow...and that's all.When you +1 somebody in conquest it means generally you join 1v1 to make it uneven in worst possible time for enemy player...So when I +1 enemy Spellbraker that spend half a day on my close vs somebody - i know that everything important he's has should be on cooldown..so he will meltAnd all it's fault of that spellbraker...that he wasted time and didn't win his 1v1....casue he would easily would 1v1 freshweaver...cause all +1 build like thiefs have the same issue:

useless if team can't create fights and everyone, everywhere are dead.

Counters are important for 1v1 classes like holo but it has nothing to do with +1 build that never ever should 1v1...it's not their role....it's waste of time...and case of build's like fresh weaver, d/p thief ect...almost always suicide.

So how about you stop talking about games that have nothing to do with Gw 2 Conquest?

I would like to correct a few things. Yes, fresh weaver is slow, but it actually should beat any spellbreaker. Watch Woodenpotato's second channel where he demonstrates this in action, and in fact hits #3 on the NA leaderboards for a bit, all on fresh air weaver. So the fact that it's not possible in the current meta is moot. What I've honestly learned from watching his vids there on the second channel was that it's not really weather you are viable or not as long as you aren't running a complete crap build, it's if you are an actually better player. Conquest is a very complicated gamemode and each map has it's quarks that you need to learn to get on a high level. If people want to complain about "this build is busted, oneshotting blows" ect then maybe you need to learn to actually get better at the gamemode or your build in general. One shot builds have been around for ages with fresh air existing since core, and builds like power mesmer need to continue to fill the role of spike DPS with the likes of thief and fresh air ele. Spike builds need to be difficult, but rewarding to in a +1 situation, but that's where they need to be. Mesmer needs toned down to be able to dual less effectively on greatsword builds to have to choose weather to dual OR be a +1, but it can do both with a lower skill floor than thief or fresh air ele at the moment. I seriously think that the low skill floor on being a semi effective mesmer is what is causing this upset, because while thieves can come oneshot you, there aren't that many good ones, and fresh air is the same. New players to either of those are dead before they even land damage though, and that's why most didn't complain. There weren't many. Mesmers are everywhere and killing everyone too easily.

[Swagg.9236]

@Mr Godlike.6098 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@"Blackjack.5621" said:When ele and core guardian do burst people on 30 second cooldowns without extraordinary disengage ability the risk/reward may be justified,

No it's not. Even then, considering the fact that GW2 effectively aims everything for you, doling out free kills to people every 30s, even if they die themselves is basically what Call of Duty does. It's just a respawn simulator. There is no skill or self-expression in any of it. The only reason that core guardian or fresh air aren't respectively meta is because their hard counters which comprise the metagame are just too invincible that they effortlessly (and often automatically) survive for protracted periods of time against all incoming effects. Core guardian and fresh air are still just as shamelessly devoid of any player skill as anything else even if they can't magically get away from combat after face-rolling on someone (with or without success).

As BlackJack said FA weaver or core guard can't compete with meta because there are to slow...and that's all.

It's hardly slow considering the clip included in the OP which features an FA weaver blowing someone up in under 2 seconds. In fact, if the player in that clip had just stun broke faster and pressed "elite button," he would have lived (if maybe only for another 3 seconds before the ele just pressed the same buttons again).

@Mr Godlike.6098 said:

Counters are important for 1v1 classes like holo but it has nothing to do with +1 build that never ever should 1v1...it's not their role....it's waste of time...and case of build's like fresh weaver, d/p thief ect...almost always suicide.

So how about you stop talking about games that have nothing to do with Gw 2 Conquest?

Counters running 1v1 encounters is exactly what rock-paper-scissors is, and it's exactly what I was referencing when I said how GW2 is devoid of skill and self-expression. Call of Duty deathmatch, in a similar manner, is a matter of arbitrarily positional hard counters rather than GW2's case of someone having a button which effortlessly hard counters another person's button. Different games, perhaps, but they're both identical in how they govern PvP encounters: they're both jokes built around a false sense of accomplishment driven by hard counters rather than player ability. CoD is just respawning on someone or wandering into someone who isn't looking at you. It's the same kind of matter as someone in GW2 using a build that is completely put into a wall by someone else who brought a different build. The only difference is that GW2 is 10-15 minutes of that when CoD is much shorter or features games in which people can just join or drop out. GW2 did have that latter option, but the game is so dead that hotjoin doesn't exist anymore.

[Crinn.7864]

I'm going to leave this here