Are you ok with the Minstrels Meta?

[narcx.3570]

I dunno, I'm pretty torn on the issue...

One the one hand, a Minstrel's chrono is doing around 8-9k dps less than an average Commander/Zerker one is doing... And you wouldn't think twice about kicking a dps who was underperforming by that much... And adding 9k (or 18k if both your chronos are using minstrel) to the group dps is pretty substantial.

But on the other hand, if you pug a lot, you'd know how useful it is to be able to go full minstrel on your chrono tank. On my alt account my chrono has minstrel's armor because I'm never going to make legendary on that account and I'm also never going to farm a second set of leadership runes (it exists to make gold, not spend it.) And when you pug clear every week, you're going to have situations where you need to be able to self sustain yourself for insanely long periods of time and you're also going to need to be able to spike really high toughness numbers to keep agro over super-safely built hand kiters or the occasional druid using minstrels since they can't or refuse to farm harriers--that is unless you're willing to spend EVEN MORE time sitting in LFG waiting for those non-dps roles to fill.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

Nobody is pooking at chrono dps numbers :D

[Zlater.6789]

@NikeEU.7690 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@NikeEU.7690 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Gear, comps and experience go hand to hand. But id me interested in what exp groups have terrible bs, run misntrel chronos, And double druid. I mean i guess prob someone might want a second druid idk id assume 1 is enough nowdays.

There are bosses where double druid is optimal. But not for healing rather utility and CC.

Nope, there are none where that is the case.For you and friends on your skill level, perhaps. Most groups

do

need that additional healing, though. It makes the runs so much more smoother, and significantly lowers the chances of failing.

His point was that there were fights where 2 druids are brought

not for healing but for CC.

I said there are no bosses with the optimal comp includes 2 druids just for extra CC. Healing wasn't part of my position statement.

You're right actually, I said that because for the longest time double condi druid was the standard on Samarog. But yeah that's actually been changed at some time so it's good you mention it.

[Astralporing.1957]

@NikeEU.7690 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@NikeEU.7690 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Gear, comps and experience go hand to hand. But id me interested in what exp groups have terrible bs, run misntrel chronos, And double druid. I mean i guess prob someone might want a second druid idk id assume 1 is enough nowdays.

There are bosses where double druid is optimal. But not for healing rather utility and CC.

Nope, there are none where that is the case.For you and friends on your skill level, perhaps. Most groups

do

need that additional healing, though. It makes the runs so much more smoother, and significantly lowers the chances of failing.

His point was that there were fights where 2 druids are brought

not for healing but for CC.

I said there are no bosses with the optimal comp includes 2 druids just for extra CC. Healing wasn't part of my position statement.

My bad. You are of course right, i've misread it badly there.

[Yasi.9065]

@"Miellyn.6847" said:Actually that's not true. You can outheal almost everything so getting more support makes mechanics that don't wipe you instant actually easier regardless how often they happen. The only thing that matters are the pulls you need to kill the boss. If you kill everything first try it doesn't matter if you run the optimal setup or not.

For one thing, what most people dont understand - in raids AND fractals - optimal setup /= speedclear setup. Actually, the speedclear setups posted by guilds like SC, DnT, dT are NOT optimal setups for 90% of the playerbase. Best example is the fractal setup with 2 weavers. If your support isnt good enough for fast ccs, popping aegis and stability at the right times, running 2 weavers is worse than running a condi setup without druid. And thats where that misconception comes from, that you can dismiss the meta in general in fractals. Not true at all, theres just different metas according to skilllevel and playstyle.For example:Easygoing meta: scourge, fb, chaos chrono, condi bs, slbFast&easy daily meta: 2 power dps, illu or domi/insp chrono, power bs, druidTryhard meta: 2 weaver, chrono, power bs, druidSpeedclear meta: 3 weaver, chaos chrono, power bs

Regarding defensive vs optimal strats, f you need twice the time for killing a boss because of defensive strategies instead of optimal setup, chances are twice as high that someone fails a crucial mechanic in raids, snowballing the whole squad. My experience is, if you can kill everything first try in raids with chronos/druid(s) running defensive sets, you could have killed everything with more optimal builds also. Theres just no need for it and it doesnt give as much of a boost to surivivability and support as most people think. Also, something a lot of players simply forget in the 1 healer vs 2 healer debate in w1-4, you arent replacing the 2nd druid with just any dps, you are supposed to replace it with someone that can fill the special roles of the 2nd druid - best example sabetha. You absolutely do NOT need a druid kiting flak. Its ridiculous. Use a scourge (full dps) as kiter, put that scourge and the druid in separate grps each and you gain epidemic and barrier, while having the same amount of effective healing and boons. Same goes for MO.

And as for outhealing making everything easier, especially in fractals, people have to stack for that. But most of the time in non-meta grps, I see the druid hogging the space at boss (especially ugly behaviour if you have social awkwardness), dps ranging from around 300-400 range, and chrono putting wells on boss because snap to target groundtargets. Just because you bring more defensive and / or supportive builds doesnt automatically mean you can outheal and have an easy time. You still have to watch positioning, cc, and... yes... dps. Your defensive strat just allows you to recover from minor mistakes more easily. But you will still wipe on big ones.

Some of those builds listed arent for support, they are for "I can stand around, push buttons randomly and not die" mentality. You want to play a real support chrono in fractals? Go mix of berserker and harrier on chrono. Absolutely no reason to go minstrel except for high tou and vit, which in itself means you just want to slack. Might sound harsh to you, but thats the facts. Same goes for minstrel druids. Actually, there is no content in the game where you need minstrel/magi to survive and support as a druid / chrono when you play decently.

To make it short:

1. Positioning + mechanics > defensive stats or dedicated healers.
2. Defensive stats only keep bad players alive a little bit longer.

/edit: added a few more examples :)

[ArchGenie.1063]

(Comment deleted)

[Yasi.9065]

I get that "I want a relaxed clear" mentality. But the thing is... is it really relaxed for your dps if they have to do max dps because you willingly sacrifice around 30k+ grp dps just by bringing minstrel chronos and 2 druids? You end up overhealing MASSIVELY with that setup, while not having enough heals for outhealing things like not clearing shrooms at sloth.

And isnt it more relaxed to kill Matthias in 3-4 minutes, compared to taking 6-7 minutes for the kill?

Is it really that strenous/exhausting to position yourself correctly and use your skills at the right time?

I can understand the "relaxed run" argument when its about things like bringing a domi/insp chrono or fb (tank) for more aegis so you can just stand there and facetank big mechanics. But minstrel on druids or off-chrono? Imo, those are just selfish and a strain on the squad.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Yasi.9065 said:

Speedclear meta: 3 weaver, chaos chrono, power bs

Can we please stop calling 3 arcane weaver and chaos chrono meta in fractals? It is not better for most of the fractals and relies on wooden planks and stones to work. It has shitty vuln application outside of storm glyph and shittier burst than 2 air weaver with druid.

[PanZielony.2843]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:

Speedclear meta: 3 weaver, chaos chrono, power bs

Can we please stop calling 3 arcane weaver and chaos chrono meta in fractals? It is not better for most of the fractals and relies on wooden planks and stones to work. It has kitten vuln application outside of storm glyph and kitten burst than 2 air weaver with druid.

w8, so u're actually saying that dT guys were wrong? :thinking:

[Zlater.6789]

@"Yasi.9065" said:I get that "I want a relaxed clear" mentality. But the thing is... is it really relaxed for your dps if they have to do max dps because you willingly sacrifice around 30k+ grp dps just by bringing minstrel chronos and 2 druids? You end up overhealing MASSIVELY with that setup, while not having enough heals for outhealing things like not clearing shrooms at sloth.

And isnt it more relaxed to kill Matthias in 3-4 minutes, compared to taking 6-7 minutes for the kill?

Is it really that strenous/exhausting to position yourself correctly and use your skills at the right time?

I can understand the "relaxed run" argument when its about things like bringing a domi/insp chrono or fb (tank) for more aegis so you can just stand there and facetank big mechanics. But minstrel on druids or off-chrono? Imo, those are just selfish and a strain on the squad.

That's really well said, I really think you hit the nail on the head when you said they are selfish and put a strain on the squad.

I know its a bit of a tangent, but the one thing that really annoys me is just the attitude, they say things for example like "trash pug dps." And then they will swap to a dps that uses marauders and say "I don't trust pugs." Spend 1 hour in the aerodrome and you will see it. Maybe instead they should say things like "Sorry I am not very good at this class yet, can you give me pointers?" or "You did you a good job, thanks for carrying me while I get more comfortable with this fight!"

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@PanZielony.2843 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:

Speedclear meta: 3 weaver, chaos chrono, power bs

Can we please stop calling 3 arcane weaver and chaos chrono meta in fractals? It is not better for most of the fractals and relies on wooden planks and stones to work. It has kitten vuln application outside of storm glyph and kitten burst than 2 air weaver with druid.

w8, so u're actually saying that dT guys were wrong? :thinking:

dT made a very strict speedclear setup, which is not suitable for most players

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

Well the reason is this. If raid boss takes you 4 minutes without defensive stats and 7 with them if you wipe its the same.

I started raiding recently so i might not be as experianced as others here. I personaly use minstrel chrono when i am tanking. Its easier to focus on position, buffs and mechanics if you dont have to worry about my hp. On some boses i tank in berserker because i already dont need extra hp. If i die as a tank its much worse than if dps class die.Double healer druid is same mentality. It is easier for your dps classes. If one of your dps dies with one druid you are on same dps. In statics 1 druid is much better but in pugs you dont know how good your teamates are.

I dont understand minstrel chrono that is not tanking. Maybe with only one druid in pugs...

[Rembar.7298]

You don't need an specific composition to clear wings ultra fast. I usually run with Healing and Tank Tempest on Raids (with my static group), and there's no problem with that.

If you know how to play your class/role and you know what can you provide to the group and what can others provide, you can do exactly the same with different compositions. The thing is: How easy is to make that? Why are we using 2 chronos and 2 druids heals? Why not having 2 DPS chronos, 1 Druid and 1 Heal/Tank Tempest/Herald? Because they have an easier way to give that buffs to the group.

Why we don't use a healing scourge in Raids? Because it sucks when you have to hold a good amount of healing in the time, but you can use it for outheal greens in VG (with barrier), for example, and you also have a good condi dmg.

There're also different mechanics that a healing Tempest can do it easier than a Druid, and still having the same group dmg:

1. Sabetha cannons when you fail can be outhealed easily by a Tempest.
2. With a Healing Tempest, you have a double group stunbreak in slot, and also a better condi cleaning.
3. In Matthias you can hold a better condi cleaning and healing with a Tempest healer. Not a good burst for the players with the poison that have to run out of the group, but you leave that to the other healer.
4. SH can be tanked and healed easily with a Healing Tempest, due to the condi cleaning (when you fail a golem) and all your healing for you and your group (Tanked SH with 5 stacks easily).
5. Dhuum kiter is easier as a Tempest and you can deal more dmg than a Druid.

Well, there's a lot of bosses where you can put a Healing Tempest and have the same or best results.

In conclusion: Put a Healing Tempest in your life. They're useful, cool, cute, waifus and they also like potatoes (that's always a good thing!).

[maxwelgm.4315]

To add to this thread, I am sincerely suspicious that players who do not experiment with different teams even inside their static group and only ever play meta comps are pampered at best and just plain bad players at worst. If you can't play the mechanics for ~8 minutes you're just bad, don't blame it on other people not having enough damage only. Counting on healers for greens on VG for example just turns it into a DPS golem for anyone but druid and tank, which means you can quite literally have from 6 to 8 bad players who can barely pull any of the mechanics (throw in a DH with a few blocks to allow extra badness from Weavers), still leave the raid after 5 minutes thinking they did something incredible 1-shotting it.

The meta is there because it's the optimal way to complete fights. Only problem here is that in all but few cases it's a couple players actually making it optimal while the others can do even mediocre DPS and succeed on the backs of Chrono/Druid/Tempest. Things like Matthias and Deimos are notable exceptions but, it's not even bosses people do that much, which goes to show they are probably not interested in personal challenge inside group content after all. The guy playing Minstrel inside a Fractal, then, is hardly a problem when there is a 8k Weaver who can't do damage even if you allow him to stand still as if he was with the DPS golem.

[Henry.5713]

Why anyone would compare well played Minstrel builds with damage dealers who are simply underperforming is beyond me. Isn't there are a huge difference between those who play well but possibly run too much support and those who simply play badly? Unless we are talking about bad support players here. I am not saying that Minstrel is the most efficient set as far as druids are concerned. Not even close. That medal goes to the Harrier/Cleric/Conentration mix as far as I am concerned.Maximizing healing power with a perfect boon duration is exactly what you need during this Power META. You end up doing more for the overall squad DPS by making sure people do not drop below the Scholar threshold than you do by maximizing personal damage as a druid. People I play with do perform rather well in terms of damage output, I have to admit. It might be less important when you run with those infamous weavers people keep bringing up.

My static has continued to run one healing druid and one minstrel chronomancer for quite a while now. Weekly clears take us around 2 hours, 2 hours 15mins at most. The added support makes up for the occasional mistakes. Timers are very easily beaten.Seriously, if you are having issues with the timers... blame the damage dealers for underperforming at their one job as a slight increase in their performance can easily double their personal damage or blame the supports for not doing their job right which might lead to just that but ONLY then even start to think about pointing fingers at any chronomancer or druid in Minstrel gear who is doing their job right. I am not saying you need four of those but you should get my point here.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@"Yasi.9065" said:I get that "I want a relaxed clear" mentality. But the thing is... is it really relaxed for your dps if they have to do max dps because you willingly sacrifice around 30k+ grp dps just by bringing minstrel chronos and 2 druids? You end up overhealing MASSIVELY with that setup, while not having enough heals for outhealing things like not clearing shrooms at sloth.

And isnt it more relaxed to kill Matthias in 3-4 minutes, compared to taking 6-7 minutes for the kill?

Is it really that strenous/exhausting to position yourself correctly and use your skills at the right time?

I can understand the "relaxed run" argument when its about things like bringing a domi/insp chrono or fb (tank) for more aegis so you can just stand there and facetank big mechanics. But minstrel on druids or off-chrono? Imo, those are just selfish and a strain on the squad.

Having more heals than the bare minimum actually is quite relaxing and enough people won't care about that amount of overhealing. Better than the lack of it. By the way, getting your numbers right certainly wouldn't hurt. The difference between offensive and defensive supporters isn't "3-4 minutes, compared to taking 6-7 minutes", it's in the range of 4 min vs 5 min plusminus a few seconds.

[DutchRiders.2871]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@"Yasi.9065" said:I get that "I want a relaxed clear" mentality. But the thing is... is it

really

relaxed for your dps if they have to do max dps because you willingly sacrifice around 30k+ grp dps just by bringing minstrel chronos and 2 druids? You end up overhealing

MASSIVELY

with that setup, while not having enough heals for outhealing things like not clearing shrooms at sloth.

And isnt it more relaxed to kill Matthias in 3-4 minutes, compared to taking 6-7 minutes for the kill?

Is it really

that

strenous/exhausting to position yourself correctly and use your skills at the right time?

I can understand the "relaxed run" argument when its about things like bringing a domi/insp chrono or fb (tank) for more aegis so you can just stand there and facetank big mechanics. But minstrel on druids or off-chrono? Imo, those are just selfish and a strain on the squad.

Having more heals than the bare minimum actually is quite relaxing and enough people won't care about that amount of overhealing. Better than the lack of it. By the way, getting your numbers right certainly wouldn't hurt. The difference between offensive and defensive supporters isn't "3-4 minutes, compared to taking 6-7 minutes", it's in the range of 4 min vs 5 min plusminus a few seconds.

For a static here is the thing, running double druid with minstrel chronos for everything camouflages the players making unnecessary mistakes. In the long run this might give problems. I rather fix the mistakes.

[CptAurellian.9537]

Feel free to do so. Just don't expect everyone to follow this path when there are viable alternatives.

[Yasi.9065]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@"Yasi.9065" said:I get that "I want a relaxed clear" mentality. But the thing is... is it

really

relaxed for your dps if they have to do max dps because you willingly sacrifice around 30k+ grp dps just by bringing minstrel chronos and 2 druids? You end up overhealing

MASSIVELY

with that setup, while not having enough heals for outhealing things like not clearing shrooms at sloth.

And isnt it more relaxed to kill Matthias in 3-4 minutes, compared to taking 6-7 minutes for the kill?

Is it really

that

strenous/exhausting to position yourself correctly and use your skills at the right time?

I can understand the "relaxed run" argument when its about things like bringing a domi/insp chrono or fb (tank) for more aegis so you can just stand there and facetank big mechanics. But minstrel on druids or off-chrono? Imo, those are just selfish and a strain on the squad.

Having more heals than the bare minimum actually is quite relaxing and enough people won't care about that amount of overhealing. Better than the lack of it. By the way, getting your numbers right certainly wouldn't hurt. The difference between offensive and defensive supporters isn't "3-4 minutes, compared to taking 6-7 minutes", it's in the range of 4 min vs 5 min plusminus a few seconds.

You are expecting your dps to play topnotch, but your supporters are allowed to slack? How is that in any way fair?

And there simply is no reason for playing minstrel except to slack and facetank mechanics you would have to sidestep/block on equip without toughness and vitality. Contrary to popular belief minstrel does not mean better support. With harrier being available, it actually means less support.

Also, I cant stop re-iterating this: toughness and vitality from minstrel doesnt allow you to survive big mechanics, only small ones. And its not the small mechanics that wipe a squad, its the big ones.

[BioDonut.6950]

@Henry.5713 said:Why anyone would compare well played Minstrel builds with damage dealers who are simply underperforming is beyond me. Isn't there are a huge difference between those who play well but possibly run too much support and those who simply play badly? Unless we are talking about bad support players here. I am not saying that Minstrel is the most efficient set as far as druids are concerned. Not even close. That medal goes to the Harrier/Cleric/Conentration mix as far as I am concerned.Maximizing healing power with a perfect boon duration is exactly what you need during this Power META. You end up doing more for the overall squad DPS by making sure people do not drop below the Scholar threshold than you do by maximizing personal damage as a druid. People I play with do perform rather well in terms of damage output, I have to admit. It might be less important when you run with those infamous weavers people keep bringing up.

My static has continued to run one healing druid and one minstrel chronomancer for quite a while now. Weekly clears take us around 2 hours, 2 hours 15mins at most. The added support makes up for the occasional mistakes. Timers are very easily beaten.Seriously, if you are having issues with the timers... blame the damage dealers for underperforming at their one job as a slight increase in their performance can easily double their personal damage or blame the supports for not doing their job right which might lead to just that but ONLY then even start to think about pointing fingers at any chronomancer or druid in Minstrel gear who is doing their job right. I am not saying you need four of those but you should get my point here.

This. Shouldn't a dps be required to dish out an adequate amount of dps? Imo it is not really forcing your dps to play top notch or dps carrying support through the raids. I mean their role is dps if u are not doing dps then why are you even there. Furthermore, some dps tank mechanics like nobody business, sooo I guess the extra support will help?

[Zlater.6789]

@maxwelgm.4315 said:Counting on healers for greens on VG for example just turns it into a DPS golem for anyone but druid and tank, which means you can quite literally have from 6 to 8 bad players who can barely pull any of the mechanics (throw in a DH with a few blocks to allow extra badness from Weavers), still leave the raid after 5 minutes thinking they did something incredible 1-shotting it.

I just wanted to point out that if you'd ever done no greens you know its not true. Trash DPS get ported by blues, then they die away from the group, it either snowballs or the dps just dies off the group.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@Yasi.9065 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:I get that "I want a relaxed clear" mentality. But the thing is... is it

really

relaxed for your dps if they have to do max dps because you willingly sacrifice around 30k+ grp dps just by bringing minstrel chronos and 2 druids? You end up overhealing

MASSIVELY

with that setup, while not having enough heals for outhealing things like not clearing shrooms at sloth.

And isnt it more relaxed to kill Matthias in 3-4 minutes, compared to taking 6-7 minutes for the kill?

Is it really

that

strenous/exhausting to position yourself correctly and use your skills at the right time?

I can understand the "relaxed run" argument when its about things like bringing a domi/insp chrono or fb (tank) for more aegis so you can just stand there and facetank big mechanics. But minstrel on druids or off-chrono? Imo, those are just selfish and a strain on the squad.

Having more heals than the bare minimum actually is quite relaxing and enough people won't care about that amount of overhealing. Better than the lack of it. By the way, getting your numbers right certainly wouldn't hurt. The difference between offensive and defensive supporters isn't "3-4 minutes, compared to taking 6-7 minutes", it's in the range of 4 min vs 5 min plusminus a few seconds.

You are expecting your dps to play topnotch, but your supporters are allowed to slack? How is that in any way fair?

And there simply is no reason for playing minstrel except to slack and facetank mechanics you would have to sidestep/block on equip without toughness and vitality. Contrary to popular belief minstrel does

not

mean better support. With harrier being available, it actually means

less

support.

Also, I cant stop re-iterating this: toughness and vitality from minstrel doesnt allow you to survive big mechanics, only small ones. And its not the small mechanics that wipe a squad, its the big ones.

Nope, I just expect dps players to be constant, no matter what kind of support you have. Anything else is a comparison of apples and oranges. Actually, for most groups defensive supporters will probably result in slightly higher values for dps players, since scholar will have a better uptime.

Also, your last paragraph is incorrect. "Small" mechanics and resulting snowball effects have a pretty substantial chance to wipe a raid.

[Rising Dusk.2408]

There is a lot of utility that certain non-meta support classes bring that legit carry groups. I don't know about anyone else, but maybe your raid group is comprised of people who are all really good friends, and you don't want to leave one/two of them behind if they're not super epic players. As a result, the group definitely has to carry those weaker links, and having some tankier high-utility builds makes that much easier (no one is just slapping on defensive stats, they're bringing more defensive utility). One of my static groups fits that description, and honestly we just have a better time as a group when our voice chat is filled with us BSing instead of us robotically calling everything perfectly so our squishy classes can time everything. And since everyone is perfectly happy with that setup and we get all of our kills, it's a great guild activity.

The only thing that matters is that everyone is on the same page about what a group is doing. My other raid group is much more tryhard, and that's great for us there because everyone wants to be a part of that and push themselves to be more pro.

[NotOverlyCheesy.9427]

I think minstrel meta (or any other meta) is okay. If the majority wants to play optimized for safety instead of speed it’s their choice. You can always gather friends/join guild to do speed runs.

[Linken.6345]

No problem with this what so ever.