Why reaper arent viable in wvw roaming (analysis)

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:IMHO necro is unbalanced because it has less defensive options as well as mobility compared to every other class and does good damage yeah but so do all other classes. Yes scourge is wvw Zerg meta by aoe spam which isn’t to healthy but least it’s got that I gues. Again my opinion only, just think it would make necro and its elites more fun in pvp and wvw if it had an increase in mobility and better defensive option

Having fewer options don't inherently make something unbalanced. As an example, Scrapper having fewer Stealth options than Daredevil doesn't mean its unbalanced. Or take being a glass cannon, having a higher level of damage output but lower level of defense is perfectly fine if the damage output is strong enough. Balance is not about everyone having the exact same things or equal number of things. Balance is about relative power levels. The fact that Necromancer has good damage and so do the other professions doesn't mean it's unbalanced either. Again, balance is about relative power level not the number of things it has. Necromancer is actually strong in PvP and WvW, both Reaper and Scrouge. The things you speak of are player preference or quality of life issues. That isn't to say they aren't important. Just that you can't frame them as balance issues. It is more productive to discuss them as the player preference issues that they are. Insisting they are balance issues when they aren't, undermines your position and makes it easy for people to dismiss your issues. Once the balance part of it is picked apart you're left with nothing left of your point. It's just best if you're upfront that you want these things because they would increase your fun.

Not everything that needs to be fixed is a balance issue.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:It seems a lot of people share that opinion

People sharing the opinion doesn't make it right. Balance isn't about the number of things any give profession has but relative power levels and how it compares with the rest of the game. The game is filled with uneven abilities but balanced professions.

I understand what you’re saying and ur right. I’m just expressing my opinion that I feel as though given the fact that necro is slow hard hitting it should have better ways to sustain itself. Other classes that hit just as hard also have far better mobility AND better defensive skills like blocks and invulnerability etc and in most cases multiple accesses to them and the class that has the least mobility doesn’t warrant those skills too? Or atleast a higher damage which it has neither. This in my opinion puts necro at a disadvantage in any pvp setting when playing against good players.im speaking of pvp and wvw mods of course. Than again my opinion could be very wrong as I’m not a game designer or developer so

I agree that we have less effective sustain when alone compared to other classes.And I feel a major part of that is due to us having to depend on life force which requires generating and yet it is not always easy/reliable to do so.

Our sustain/defense depends on a depletable life force that is not easy to refill, gated behind a cool down, and can be depleted faster when hit.While others rely on skills gated behind cool downs that when utilised/rotated rightly can give them very long sustain compared to a necro.

Although I think a case could be made for a DM plus BM necro utilizing protection and dagger healing etc for a much better sustain now with the new Dark Defiance trait.

[Dace.8173]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:IMHO necro is unbalanced because it has less defensive options as well as mobility compared to every other class and does good damage yeah but so do all other classes. Yes scourge is wvw Zerg meta by aoe spam which isn’t to healthy but least it’s got that I gues. Again my opinion only, just think it would make necro and its elites more fun in pvp and wvw if it had an increase in mobility and better defensive option

Having fewer options don't inherently make something unbalanced. As an example, Scrapper having fewer Stealth options than Daredevil doesn't mean its unbalanced. Or take being a glass cannon, having a higher level of damage output but lower level of defense is perfectly fine if the damage output is strong enough. Balance is not about everyone having the exact same things or equal number of things. Balance is about relative power levels. The fact that Necromancer has good damage and so do the other professions doesn't mean it's unbalanced either. Again, balance is about relative power level not the number of things it has. Necromancer is actually strong in PvP and WvW, both Reaper and Scrouge. The things you speak of are player preference or quality of life issues. That isn't to say they aren't important. Just that you can't frame them as balance issues. It is more productive to discuss them as the player preference issues that they are. Insisting they are balance issues when they aren't, undermines your position and makes it easy for people to dismiss your issues. Once the balance part of it is picked apart you're left with nothing left of your point. It's just best if you're upfront that you want these things because they would increase your fun.

Not everything that needs to be fixed is a balance issue.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:It seems a lot of people share that opinion

People sharing the opinion doesn't make it right. Balance isn't about the number of things any give profession has but relative power levels and how it compares with the rest of the game. The game is filled with uneven abilities but balanced professions.

I understand what you’re saying and ur right. I’m just expressing my opinion that I feel as though given the fact that necro is slow hard hitting it should have better ways to sustain itself. Other classes that hit just as hard also have far better mobility AND better defensive skills like blocks and invulnerability etc and in most cases multiple accesses to them and the class that has the least mobility doesn’t warrant those skills too? Or atleast a higher damage which it has neither. This in my opinion puts necro at a disadvantage in any pvp setting when playing against good players.im speaking of pvp and wvw mods of course. Than again my opinion could be very wrong as I’m not a game designer or developer so

Except, Necromancer in PvP can be very strong. You can feel it puts them at a disadvantage but in actual game play that's not always the case. Again, you undermine your own point when you try to push the balance angle. When you play to Reaper and Scourge strength then they become very strong. Scourge can often become the most important thing to kill on a map if you want to win the game. That's the reality of PvP and trying to ignore that and claim a balance issue is at play makes your point easily ignorable since it is not in touch with actual play in PvP.

Other professions hit as hard and have better mobility because they are created differently. They have a different set of abilities. Necromancer doesn't always need better mobility. Reaper's chill effects can prevent a person from escaping thus it hits hard and instead of having mobility it has the ability to mitigate the mobility of the other professions. Again, balance is not about people having equal access to the things. If Necromancer (Reaper) lacked those abilities, the ability to nullify other people's mobility, then the fact that its slower may be a balance issue instead of a QoL issue. However, that's not the case. It trades in its mobility for other avenues of play. You really can't look at other professions and start counting abilities and then claim that Necromancer underperforms because it doesn't have access to this one ability that other folks get as you are ignoring the reasons why Necromancer doesn't have those abilities. You are ignoring what Necromancer was given access to instead of the things you want. You are ignoring why Necromancer didn't warrant having those abilities at launch.

One can argue whether or not those abilities are enough. However, what other people get access to has no bearing on that. Comparing Necromancer to other professions in the way you do is immaterial as Necromancer was clearly given a different set of abilities to achieve its goals and those abilities have to be evaluated on the basis of whether or not they work, not on the grounds of what other professions have. It's like claiming Thief is unbalanced because it wasn't given the same level of damage mitigation that Warrior has. While true, Thief was instead given Stealth and thus instead of soaking up damage you are meant to instead outright avoid the damage by not being seen. Their abilities have to be evaluated on the grounds of whether or not they actually work, not based on the fact that Warrior has more damage mitigation. If you want access to lots of damage mitigation and lots of mobility then you clearly need to play another profession as Necromancer is themed around slowing people down for the kill, not in chasing people down for the kill. Reaper doesn't chase people. It was given the ability to pull its prey to them (Grasping Darkness), chill them or otherwise slow them down (Nightfall, Chilling Scythe, Chill to the Bone, Suffer), and then kill them (any number of abilities but I'll focus on Reaper Shroud). Those abilities have to be evaluated on the grounds of whether or not it actually works because comparing them to other professions is meaningless since they don't kill in that fashion (it works in PvP and WvW btw). So yes, it's slow moving but its slow-moving drags people to you and makes getting away from you difficult, thus mitigating the need for mobility. Thus, if it needs more mobility we are discussing QoL issues and not balance issues.

As for defensive skills such as blocks and invulnerability this is the result of having Shroud. Again, you are missing something because you have access to something other professions don't have access to. We could compare Necromancer to other professions but that isn't going to do us any good as it doesn't tell us if Shroud actually performs at the level it needs to (not always to no). Since Shroud isn't going to go away from Reaper and Necromancer, one has evaluate whether or not it will ever be effective. I'm of the opinion that it's not and likely never will. But that is reached by evaluating if Shroud actually performs the way its supposed to and not based on counting what other folks get and then saying "I want that too." Scourge shows just how effective it can be without access to Shroud but instead given barriers but again, that has to do with whether it works for Necromancer and not counting up the number of damage mitigation Warrior gets.

Does the lack of access to these abilities make Necromancer disadvantage in PvP? Not really. When played to their strengths both Scourge and Reaper can be very strong in PvP. More so when it has a babysitter. I know a lot of people complain about that but it really isn't important as PvP is a team game and folks are meant to rely on others to win the match and not everyone being able to do all the things. Firebrand needs a babysitter in order to perform well and it is one of the strongest builds you can take into PvP. A group of Guardians/Firebrands providing support in WvW can make people almost unkillable with their ability to pump out Aegis and heals. Necromancer players complain about needing one but considering how much stronger a babysitter can make folks in PvP/WvW those complaints are silly. When having a babysitter can make you unkillable and lets you focus on killing the opposing team it's really ridiculous to complain.

[Farkon.2170]

"Firebrand needs a babysitter in order to perform well and it is one of the strongest builds you can take into PvP."Firebrand can perform without a babysitter.Reaper needs to be babysat to even perform.

You and Obtena state that Reapers is doing ok, then state that Reapers need to be played on a higher level to be viable or to "play on their strengths". Cool, you obviously don't want Necros to be viable, I get that.When you bother to look at the bigger picture, everyone other then Eles have been gaining various strengths over the years, while Necros are being left behind more and more.In fact, multiple classes, if they break out of the norm, can perform better then Reapers at their roles.Their "strengths" are outdated, their abilities are outdated, and any competent player will rip a Reaper to shreds since Reapers have multiple weaknesses and few strengths.

When Reapers had access to more LF, before the nerf, they were fun yet barely viable in 5 man roams in WvWvW, now they're not.Whatever stupid shit you want to say like "Does the lack of access to these abilities make Necromancer disadvantage in PvP? Not really. "(Like really? Not having flexibility isn't a disadvantage?) doesn't change the fact that they aren't viable in WvWvW and anyone who plays Reaper will figure that out.Honestly, half the shit you two say is so convoluted and generalist it's like the politics on TV and Necros are your rival party.

[Phoenix the One.4071]

@Dace.8173 said:

I mean people hated trap builds because SPvP well and others stuff, is mostly about zone control... guess which specc has something worse than traps xDSo I agree with you, they are often main priority since they can keep their distance and still keep a team at bay on the point.

Even though I think you often are strawmaning or going off point to explain a semi-related topic;) but gotta agree with you when you are on point.

[Dace.8173]

@"Farkon.2170" said:"Firebrand needs a babysitter in order to perform well and it is one of the strongest builds you can take into PvP."Firebrand can perform without a babysitter.Reaper needs to be babysat to even perform.

You and Obtena state that Reapers is doing ok, then state that Reapers need to be played on a higher level to be viable or to "play on their strengths". Cool, you obviously don't want Necros to be viable, I get that.When you bother to look at the bigger picture, everyone other then Eles have been gaining various strengths over the years, while Necros are being left behind more and more.In fact, multiple classes, if they break out of the norm, can perform better then Reapers at their roles.Their "strengths" are outdated, their abilities are outdated, and any competent player will rip a Reaper to shreds since Reapers have multiple weaknesses and few strengths.

When Reapers had access to more LF, before the nerf, they were fun yet barely viable in 5 man roams in WvWvW, now they're not.Whatever stupid kitten you want to say like "Does the lack of access to these abilities make Necromancer disadvantage in PvP? Not really. "(Like really? Not having flexibility isn't a disadvantage?) doesn't change the fact that they aren't viable in WvWvW and anyone who plays Reaper will figure that out.Honestly, half the kitten you two say is so convoluted and generalist it's like the politics on TV and Necros are your rival party.

It depends on what kind of Firebrand. Firebrand support needs a babysitter too. It could put some focus on not needing a babysitter but that means it sacrifices support. A support Firebrand without a babysitter dies fast though as it becomes a high priority kill due to the level of support it can lend to others. If you let the support Firebrand live your team may lose. If the support Firebrand isn't being babysat by its team then it underperforms. Even when Firebrand isn't being played as support it still pretty much needs the rest of the team to screen for it as people tend to kill it, and Scourge, first just to be safe. In WvW I've seen Firebrands who can't defend themselves because they are support keep an entire squad alive because the squad protects them and they make them unkillable. Scourge/Firebrand team is often a major part of siege defense for the Keeps on the map. It can be said that Firebrand has more build options but that doesn't change that support Firebrand typically folds when it isn't being babysat. Nor does Firebrand having more build options have any bearing on whether or not the builds that Reaper can run are balanced or do well.

Reaper is doing ok. It's been shown in prior discussions to be the case. Folks have posted video footage of it happening. Unless one is going to argue those videos are faked its really hard to get around the fact that Reaper, when played to its strengths, does well in PvP. In every discussion that you've tried to make the claim that it sucks your argument has always fallen apart when people start showing you video evidence that it can and does perform well. This isn't about Necromancer being viable. I've made numerous suggestions in numerous threads about what I feel would make Necromancer stronger. So if you want to claim that I don't want Necromancer to be viable then I'm going to say you're just making stuff up, at best and that you have a personal axe to grind if I'm not being so generous. I have the track record and the people who can vouch for me on the matter. Though I am unclear why you are taking random shots at @Obtena.7952 . It's like you have some kind of personal grudge.

Also, everything needs to play to its strengths, not just Reaper. Deadeye is a long-range +1 or a roamer. If you play Deadeye like a duelist it typically folds. Its strength lies in picking targets off outside of their range to counter-attack. Everything needs to be played to its strengths. That's the big picture. If you want to win with Ranger, play to its strengths. Want to win with Scrapper? Play to is strengths. Want to win with Herald? Play to its strengths. Want to win with Dragonhunter, play to its strengths. Dragonhunter sucks at roaming. It's not fast enough to do that. Sure it has teleports but all of those are to a target. You can lose matches by roaming with a Dragonhunter because you're not playing to its strengths. The fact that Reaper needs to be played to its strength to win doesn't mean it can't win. People who win with it win because they know what Reaper does well and play to that. You have consistently failed to account for how people win with Reaper and just continued claiming it sucks because you can't make it work. It has been consistently shown to you that Reaper can and does perform. Ignoring that doesn't make it any less true. Speak to other folks on other subforms and they'll agree that if you aren't playing to your Elite/profession/build's strengths you are likely to lose.

As for other professions being able to break from their strengths? Your point? There are a lot of overpowered professions/Elites in the game right now. The fact that they overperform doesn't mean Necromancer can't perform. The solution to them overperforming is to not make Necromancer overperform. That makes things worse, not better. You can't talk about the big picture and ignore the overall health of the game, which you frequently do. There are a lot of Elites and builds right now that need to be brought in line with the rest of the game, not the other way around. That's the big picture.

Reaper is viable in PvP and WvW. That has been proven to you time and time again. It can be said that Reaper has fewer options, but that is not a balance issue but a QoL issue. Balance is about the ability to perform, not the number of builds that can perform. Herald has fewer meta builds than Reaper, but the builds it does have are balanced. Renegade doesn't have any meta builds, it underperforms and needs to be better balanced so that it actually is viable. Reaper has viable builds. Scourge has viable builds. You can pretend that they don't but that doesn't make you right.

Oh, and convoluted? Really? How is proving you wrong by showing you videos of Reaper performing convoluted? How is giving you meta builds that have a track record of working convoluted? Please. You consistently make claims that can easily be disproven by youtube.

> @Phoenix the One.4071 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

I mean people hated trap builds because SPvP well and others stuff, is mostly about zone control... guess which specc has something worse than traps xDSo I agree with you, they are often main priority since they can keep their distance and still keep a team at bay on the point.

Even though I think you often are strawmaning or going off point to explain a semi-related topic;) but gotta agree with you when you are on point.

Zone control is an important part of winning in PvP. If you can do that then you are very strong. Scourge has very strong zone control abilities. You can't ignore that in favor of arguing that Necromancer sucks and can't perform in PvP when the opposite is true. The problem, as I see it, isn't that Necromancer can't perform in PvP/WvW. It's that people don't like how it does that. A lot of folks don't want to play support and simply want to duel. Since Necromancer can't duel they aren't happy. Necromancer not being able to duel isn't a balance issue though. It's a QoL issue. People who enjoy support though have no issues with Necromancer and have no problem winning in PvP with it.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@"Farkon.2170" said:"Firebrand needs a babysitter in order to perform well and it is one of the strongest builds you can take into PvP."Firebrand can perform without a babysitter.Reaper needs to be babysat to even perform.

You and Obtena state that Reapers is doing ok, then state that Reapers need to be played on a higher level to be viable or to "play on their strengths". Cool, you obviously don't want Necros to be viable, I get that.When you bother to look at the bigger picture, everyone other then Eles have been gaining various strengths over the years, while Necros are being left behind more and more.In fact, multiple classes, if they break out of the norm, can perform better then Reapers at their roles.Their "strengths" are outdated, their abilities are outdated, and any competent player will rip a Reaper to shreds since Reapers have multiple weaknesses and few strengths.

When Reapers had access to more LF, before the nerf, they were fun yet barely viable in 5 man roams in WvWvW, now they're not.Whatever stupid kitten you want to say like "Does the lack of access to these abilities make Necromancer disadvantage in PvP? Not really. "(Like really? Not having flexibility isn't a disadvantage?) doesn't change the fact that they aren't viable in WvWvW and anyone who plays Reaper will figure that out.Honestly, half the kitten you two say is so convoluted and generalist it's like the politics on TV and Necros are your rival party.

I agree so basically because necro is given a diff skill set and role they can’t be compared to other classes is what I got from that wall of text, but than the idea of balancing wouldn’t exist. Necro has diff skill set yes but it’s out dated and lacking in ways to compete with all the mobility,blocks and invulnerability skills that have been handed out like candy to other classes, cant even make use of ur reaper burst to make up for lack of mobility cuz unless the opponent is skilled they will shrug off ur burst with blocks or invulnerability than tear u apart cuz shroud is garbage mitigation but it’s best we got.it feels like certain classes necro being a big one got left behind the powercreep,non DE thieves as well and more powercreep may not be answer but ever class should have compensation for its weaknesses and a way to compete with other classes skills and it doesnt

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Reaper was shown to doing well because high win rates, but how much of that is ranked? reaper is a noob stomper in Unranked and falls hard against good level players

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Not everyone enjoys aoe spamming scourge in wvw or pvp

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Shouldn’t be our only option to be competitive, be like saying thief is in a great spot cuz DE cheese build is strong,a lot of people don’t like DE playstyle

[Psycoprophet.8107]

No point and even having balance threads lol cuz non mains will alway say a underperforming class is fine. Even if it’s the least competitive class people will rally its fine and vice versa, last yr or so even mirage and Chrono mains argue their classes are balanced lol

[Psycoprophet.8107]

This is why arenet should hire a group of skilled knowledgeable players that play all professions often that have the least bias and can be objective to be the ones the bounce the balance ideas off of or they themselves play their game and all its modes with all its classes on a regular basis, though I understand why most developers don’t. They deff shouldn’t listen to us randoms or any build that’s balanced but annoying will get nurfed from whiners and any lesser popular classes will stay behind

[zinkz.7045]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:This is why arenet should hire a group of skilled knowledgeable players that play all professions often that have the least bias and can be objective to be the ones the bounce the balance ideas off of or they themselves play their game and all its modes with all its classes on a regular basis, though I understand why most developers don’t. They deff shouldn’t listen to us randoms or any build that’s balanced but annoying will get nurfed from whiners and any lesser popular classes will stay behind

Anyone skilled and knowledgeable knows they can't balance the game across PvP conquest, PvE raids, WvW zergs, WvW roamers, etc. Which is exactly why they don't bother at all for roaming and barely bother with WvW fullstop.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@zinkz.7045 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:This is why arenet should hire a group of skilled knowledgeable players that play all professions often that have the least bias and can be objective to be the ones the bounce the balance ideas off of or they themselves play their game and all its modes with all its classes on a regular basis, though I understand why most developers don’t. They deff shouldn’t listen to us randoms or any build that’s balanced but annoying will get nurfed from whiners and any lesser popular classes will stay behind

Anyone skilled and knowledgeable knows they can't balance the game across PvP conquest, PvE raids, WvW zergs, WvW roamers, etc. Which is exactly why they don't bother at all for roaming and barely bother with WvW fullstop.

This is very true but theirs no reason why after this many yrs classes couldn’t have been altered to preform in each mode to crest a more even playing field, even though even then 100% balance is unattainable. But that’s costly and unlikely so my suggestion though wouldn’t be a perfect fix I think classes would be atleast far more balanced in regards to competing with each other classes kits

[Axl.8924]

Part of the issue is that you cant have a class that has too much sustain, and too much damage. Reaper has quite a bit of sustain, even if its just flat out having lots of hp and having shroud that counts as a second health bar, and having that combined with damage is seen as too strong. Balancing will always be seen as problematic having them combined, also with the aoe attacks of melee range from reaper as well.

Also spvp is about teamplay.

Some builds are all about single target damage and being able to roam like daredevil and holosmith, and some are about teamplay like firebrand scourge and reaper.

People already complain about reaper damage when combined with firebrand, because a reaper babysat can wreak havoc on point.

[Zero.3871]

@Axl.8924 said:Part of the issue is that you cant have a class that has too much sustain, and too much damage.

why does soulbeast and mirage than have both?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Axl.8924 said:Part of the issue is that you cant have a class that has too much sustain, and too much damage. Reaper has quite a bit of sustain, even if its just flat out having lots of hp and having shroud that counts as a second health bar, and having that combined with damage is seen as too strong. Balancing will always be seen as problematic having them combined, also with the aoe attacks of melee range from reaper as well.

Also spvp is about teamplay.

Some builds are all about single target damage and being able to roam like daredevil and holosmith, and some are about teamplay like firebrand scourge and reaper.

People already complain about reaper damage when combined with firebrand, because a reaper babysat can wreak havoc on point.

Reaper shroud is gbage sustain and hp mean little with damage that’s being thrown around, saying that a class is good damage while needing to be baby sat by another class shows a problem with said class,doesn’t hit any harder than most classes yet has lowest mobility. It can debuff so there’s that

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Scourge is strong aoe spam so great in wvw zergs but a lot of people want to play necro and feel competitive without aoe spamming, least I do anyway

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Arenet needs to stop balancing classes for pve only and make balance changes for all modes that only effect said modes, not most cost effective but would be good for health and longevity of the game

[Axl.8924]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Part of the issue is that you cant have a class that has too much sustain, and too much damage. Reaper has quite a bit of sustain, even if its just flat out having lots of hp and having shroud that counts as a second health bar, and having that combined with damage is seen as too strong. Balancing will always be seen as problematic having them combined, also with the aoe attacks of melee range from reaper as well.

Also spvp is about teamplay.

Some builds are all about single target damage and being able to roam like daredevil and holosmith, and some are about teamplay like firebrand scourge and reaper.

People already complain about reaper damage when combined with firebrand, because a reaper babysat can wreak havoc on point.

Reaper shroud is gbage sustain and hp mean little with damage that’s being thrown around, saying that a class is good damage while needing to be baby sat by another class shows a problem with said class,doesn’t hit any harder than most classes yet has lowest mobility. It can debuff so there’s that

Having a build on point with quickness who can do 20k and up and easily kill someone is dangerous. Before the changes to make reaper more powerful, it had longer shroud, and people viewed it as having a distinct advantage when combined also the fact necros had such a huge health bar.

In situations of pvp, that is why reapers are targeted, since in spvp they are so dangerous. if combined with being babysat, they could wreak havoc.

On one hand if combined with others, it can be seen as overpowered if a reaper for instance attacks a group of people who are cced in place and if the said reaper were able to one shot everyone, which is why shroud has less duration.

The nerf happened to reaper because of problems regarding creep effect.Classes in pof era are hitting too hard now, and classes like necro don't have the tools, but also reaper could be considered part of the problem if it doesn't get nerfed, since every other class is also being hit with the nerf bat.

Look at the nerf to deadeye for instance and how they generate lead attack, or how mesmers got jaunt nerfed and a bunch of other stuff. Damage overall is just too high in spvp, and too easy to one shot everyone.

The problem also isn't just damage, but sustain combined with damage, which is why people cry about mirage and classes like warrior guardian and soulbeast, which probably will eventually take a hit. Reaper in this day and era, use health as a way to survive, and most necros agree that its not as effective as say evades and invulns, because its so easy to just cc a reaper while in shroud and blow him up, but if sustain of other classes gets nerfed, you will have to nerf damage as well.

Being one shotted by reaper wouldn't be fun for people, but neither is being shot down without time to react by deadeye or mirage.

I think ANET is trying to fix the problems that are causing pvp to not be fun.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

20k is not dangerous, u get the player un aware or if thier bad it is but u try and bait out their invulnerability or block skills before u do ur 20k burst and ur dead cuz no decent sustain and ull prob be downed,do ur burst and a good player blocks and or invulnerability thus uses thier great defensive abilities to render ur 20k to 0, and now ur burstless ,no mobility to run and have no good sustain,awsome

[Psycoprophet.8107]

People can talk about all the sustain and damage reaper have or how good death shroud is for sustain or how scourge can do great aoe cheese spam doesn’t change the fact the skills it’s been given are behind the skills of other classes when in comparison, and yea everything works somtimes lol, I don’t really play a ton of necro compared to other classes so maybe my impressions are wrong on the few 100 hrs I’ve only spent on it and really don’t get to effected by its state lol just feel for other people

[Justine.6351]

Was just roaming with a reaper ally pug for an hour last night against the 4link yb server. I was a hammer rev. Stayed in the northern area of their Alpine borderland for an hour because we never died. Fought a lot of 2v2s and a few 2v3s.

[Phoenix the One.4071]

Psycho you can edit your post if soemthing new come to mine, instead of inflating this thread:)

And you seem very keen on other professions, and talk about maining necromancer.I fully admit I do not main Necromancer... I actually do not think I main anything.Guardians and Thief are close though.But used a lot of my time on Revenant, Elementalist and necromancer.A bit of my time on warriors, engineer(s)? And ranger.

And sometimes setups feels unfair, but I think most of it on reddit and forums are confirmation bias.But some professions are overtuned.I like reactionary gameplay, but I understand why we had auto-defence, since some profession can kill other under 2 secs.Defy pain (eventhough one can use CC and Cond), Elixir-S and Mirage evade are very disencouraging to encounter, as they offer great survivability with few weakness and little sacrifices.But thieves are constantly complaining on how weak their are, forgetting how great they are at evading and bursting, the initiative system is so forgiving.Warriors also cried with the current nerf, still doing overall great, and being a good pubstomper profession.

And know what? I still encounter core and reaper necromancers in Spvp who are performing ok.I am in the low end of league, but I guess that is where most players are any way.As mentioned this game is about teamwork and not being able to 1vX something (that’s only for Mesmers ;) ).

And I roam just fine on my Reaper. I know when to pick my fights and when to zoom away:) but me in a team with a few friends, and I bring 100% chill uptime, aoe CC on demand, projectile hate, aoe heal, and high crits :)

[Axl.8924]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:20k is not dangerous, u get the player un aware or if thier bad it is but u try and bait out their invulnerability or block skills before u do ur 20k burst and ur dead cuz no decent sustain and ull prob be downed,do ur burst and a good player blocks and or invulnerability thus uses thier great defensive abilities to render ur 20k to 0, and now ur burstless ,no mobility to run and have no good sustain,awsome

It is if you count that eles have a lot of times under 12k hp and thieves don't have a to of health, so catching a thief 20k is a lot.Some classes can literally be one shot by 20k.

The problem is landing a killing blow for reaper, because you are very slow and have predictable movements, and a little thing called soul barbs which tells other players when you leave reaper shroud, giving them a indication: HEY strike here, this necromancer cannot enter shroud for another 10 seconds. For reapers, landing a killing blow was always a problem.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

i Still stand by what I said and I did NOT mention thief my main or ele because those are the two other classes that I think are falling behind the powercreep, excluding DE cheese