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MH Dagger Suggestion


Lily.1935
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I have a very simple suggestion to make for the main hand dagger since this has been a sticking point for me for a while.

You have dark pact which causes bleeding. And that's supposed to combo with your life siphon by making it more powerful. The issue is that the bonus healing you get and the damage you take doesn't usually line up all that well. Not only that if an ally removes the bleeding before you can activate the skill you lose the benefit of that bonus healing and damage. So Let me make a proposal. Rather than giving bonus damage to the life siphon when you start bleeding, how about the skill changes into a brand new very similar skill that is more powerful for 4-5 seconds after you start bleeding. Both skills sharing the same cooldown? This way you can transfer the condition or an ally can remove it without being punished as hard for missing the window. This does improve the weapon a bit, but honestly its more a quality of life change.

Personally though, I'd like to see Both the auto attack and Life siphon change after suffering from bleeding to add to this awaken the blood sort of feeling in it. But that's just me. What do you other necros think?

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I have no objections to that idea.

I would not mind if Life Siphon's damage and heal were increased from +20% to something more noticeable like 50% and the AA also received a damage bonus while taking condition damage.

Why does Necro have to take bleed damage in the first place? The concept of doing higher dps to enemies while adding to their own dps is just dumb.Necro: Hey, let's die together! Here, I'll cut myself right now! Then, you can let me siphon you!Enemy: No way! Go die by yourself, wierdo!

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@Anchoku.8142 said:I have no objections to that idea.

I would not mind if Life Siphon's damage and heal were increased from +20% to something more noticeable like 50% and the AA also received a damage bonus while taking condition damage.

Why does Necro have to take bleed damage in the first place? The concept of doing higher dps to enemies while adding to their own dps is just dumb.Necro: Hey, let's die together! Here, I'll cut myself right now! Then, you can let me siphon you!Enemy: No way! Go die by yourself, wierdo!

Hurting yourself to cause damage or support has always been an aspect of necromancer flavor and is rooted in other games as well. It's a flavor that has been poorly supported in gw2 which has left the impression you have. Which is frustrating for me since I love the power at any cost play style which the necromancer rightfully should have.

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@Lily.1935 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:I have no objections to that idea.

I would not mind if Life Siphon's damage and heal were increased from +20% to something more noticeable like 50% and the AA also received a damage bonus while taking condition damage.

Why does Necro have to take bleed damage in the first place? The concept of doing higher dps to enemies while adding to their own dps is just dumb.Necro: Hey, let's die together! Here, I'll cut myself right now! Then, you can let me siphon you!Enemy: No way! Go die by yourself, wierdo!

Hurting yourself to cause damage or support has always been an aspect of necromancer flavor and is rooted in other games as well. It's a flavor that has been poorly supported in gw2 which has left the impression you have. Which is frustrating for me since I love the power at any cost play style which the necromancer rightfully should have.

the problem with necro in gw2 is, that the support it does or the dmg it does dont calc well with the dmg he does to himself.

Lets take a traited blood is power in pve. Thats 10 staks might for 10 seconds, 14 seconds cd for 2100 bleed dmg.And you deal 715 bleeding and 435/870torment= 1150 to 1585 dmg to yourself if you cannot send these conditions away.

If a skill hurts yourself, it should at least hit like a truck. And not only be 600 dmg difference.Or it should be way more supportive

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Anchoku.8142" said:I have no objections to that idea.

I would not mind if Life Siphon's damage and heal were increased from +20% to something more noticeable like 50% and the AA also received a damage bonus while taking condition damage.

Why does Necro have to take bleed damage in the first place? The concept of doing higher dps to enemies while adding to their own dps is just dumb.Necro: Hey, let's die together! Here, I'll cut myself right now! Then, you can let me siphon you!Enemy: No way! Go die by yourself, wierdo!

Hurting yourself to cause damage or support has always been an aspect of necromancer flavor and is rooted in other games as well. It's a flavor that has been poorly supported in gw2 which has left the impression you have. Which is frustrating for me since I love the power at any cost play style which the necromancer rightfully should have.

the problem with necro in gw2 is, that the support it does or the dmg it does dont calc well with the dmg he does to himself.

Lets take a traited blood is power in pve. Thats 10 staks might for 10 seconds, 14 seconds cd for 2100 bleed dmg.And you deal 715 bleeding and 435/870torment= 1150 to 1585 dmg to yourself if you cannot send these conditions away.

If a skill hurts yourself, it should at least hit like a truck. And not only be 600 dmg difference.Or it should be way more supportive

Don't need to explain that to me. I know. But that's no reason to remove it. It just needs better utility, support and damage added to it. I'm not in favor of removing my home in GW2 just because some people don't get it. What people are saying to me when they want to remove this element from the game is "Your way of playing is wrong. Get out!" I don't want it removed because this is how I enjoy playing the game. Without it I have no home in the game.

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A lot of things could be done to improve MH-Dagger.

  • 10% more damage on the auto + less aftercast
  • skill 2 becomes a non-channeling lifesteal with 3/4s cast time and 4k dmg. and 4k life siphon (value for full zerk gear) - cooldown is fine
  • skill 3 does not require the necro to look at the target to make it more usable while kiting - cooldown is fine

All these changes do not require skill reworks but would improve the weapon a lot.

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@KrHome.1920 said:A lot of things could be done to improve MH-Dagger.

  • 10% more damage on the auto + less aftercast
  • skill 2 becomes a non-channeling lifesteal with 3/4s cast time and 4k dmg. and 4k life siphon (value for full zerk gear) - cooldown is fine
  • skill 3 does not require the necro to look at the target to make it more usable while kiting - cooldown is fine

All these changes do not require skill reworks but would improve the weapon a lot.

Yeah the channel makes it almost impossible to use in pvp.If you cast it, you are basically asking to get interrupted. 3 seconds channel for such a weak skill is just way too much.But i think 4k life siphon would be too much?

Right now you get almost 4k sure, but in an instant thats way too much.Id prefer if it put a unique not removeable buff on the necromancer, that lets him heal over time for the amount it is doing right now

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Its a neat concept lilly what about consuming bleed slacks for each hit in order to increase damage. It would be simple condi removal with dagger but only for bleeds while getting some support out of it necro has quite a few ways to bleed itself at this point could do a full on corruption kinda deal.

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thats what i say allways to a friend, my wish to Scourge would be:Dagger + Torch / Scepter + DaggerNerf Epidemic and give Dagger in MH bleeding in rotation. Like the Thief have.You would have real dmg to a target and you would have a source for lifeforce regeneration (dagger auto attack)

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I like the idea generally; corrupts are an underused and underpowered feature in the necro toolset. It should really be much more clever than the way it's implemented now.

Specifically on the skills in question; IIRC, the whole bleed stack from dagger 3 is close to a single tick of healing on Dark Pact ... so it's risk/reward profile is pretty nice.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:Its a neat concept lilly what about consuming bleed slacks for each hit in order to increase damage. It would be simple condi removal with dagger but only for bleeds while getting some support out of it necro has quite a few ways to bleed itself at this point could do a full on corruption kinda deal.

The problem with your suggestion is the same problem I'm trying to fix here. External synergy. So you use a slow channel hoping to get some bonus damage from the bleeding? Well, you might get it once but than an ally might remove the bleeding negating that extra damage. Its potentially worse for party synergy. This was the reason they removed self inflicting conditions from the Revenant. With this in mind, my suggestion is to minimize anti-synergy situations. In which your suggestion does not. Although it is a cool concept, it doesn't consider external factors.

Another issue with it is we've never seen a skill or ability in GW that just removes 1 stack of a condition and the that would require new technology most likely with little benefit to the game. I'm not sure that this is the direction we should go. The change I've suggested isn't beyond the current set up but this suggestion of yours would require a new program to be put into the game. Adding a function to conditions that increases their data which considering that Arena net had a lot of problems trying to figure out how to raise the condition cap without crippling their system, this small suggestion of yours is actually far more extreme than you think.

Now, I'm not one to say that its too much work as an excuse for Arena net not doing something they should. I would never do that. In fact I think they're too reluctant to put in the extra effort as it is. With that said I do have to be skeptical of changes that ultimately don't fix the problem I'm pointing out.

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@Lily.1935 said:Another issue with it is we've never seen a skill or ability in GW that just removes 1 stack of a conditionWe have!

Speed of Shadows was buggy at the beginning and did only remove one instance of the moving impaired conditions on the necro (e.g. if you got 3 immobs on you, then entering shroud removed only one of them). I myself made the bug report. They fixed it a few days later. Now the trait removes the whole stack.

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i would prefer if MH dagger skill 2 was changed into a skill similar to DH's F1 spear pull.1200 range unblockable throwing dagger on skill 2 that is attached to a chain and can pull opponents back to you.

Every melee weapon on other classes has a form of mobility/gap-closer.Dagger MH on Necro needs one too.

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@Lily.1935 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Its a neat concept lilly what about consuming bleed slacks for each hit in order to increase damage. It would be simple condi removal with dagger but only for bleeds while getting some support out of it necro has quite a few ways to bleed itself at this point could do a full on corruption kinda deal.

The problem with your suggestion is the same problem I'm trying to fix here. External synergy. So you use a slow channel hoping to get some bonus damage from the bleeding? Well, you might get it once but than an ally might remove the bleeding negating that extra damage. Its potentially worse for party synergy. This was the reason they removed self inflicting conditions from the Revenant. With this in mind, my suggestion is to minimize anti-synergy situations. In which your suggestion does not. Although it is a cool concept, it doesn't consider external factors.

Another issue with it is we've never seen a skill or ability in GW that just removes 1 stack of a condition and the that would require new technology most likely with little benefit to the game. I'm not sure that this is the direction we should go. The change I've suggested isn't beyond the current set up but this suggestion of yours would require a new program to be put into the game. Adding a function to conditions that increases their data which considering that Arena net had a lot of problems trying to figure out how to raise the condition cap without crippling their system, this small suggestion of yours is actually far more extreme than you think.

Now, I'm not one to say that its too much work as an excuse for Arena net not doing something they should. I would never do that. In fact I think they're too reluctant to put in the extra effort as it is. With that said I do have to be skeptical of changes that ultimately don't fix the problem I'm pointing out.

I was just tossing something up but you bring up plenty of fair points here as to why this wouldn't be all that great. Cheers!

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MH dagger has little going for it, anymore. It is a short range power-weapon with 2-target cleave, channel siphon-heal, and boon corrupt with a bind. I find it redundant in every situation. Even a large dps buff may not solve the problem of what build might possibly make the most of it.

  • Core power-Necro and power-Scourge can camp axe more comfortably than ever before and axe has good range, now.

  • Condi builds all use scepter for MH and has OH dagger, war horn, and torch.

  • Power-Reaper builds use greatsword, often with axe or staff.

p.s.For what MH dagger is capable of doing, stat's that would be good for it are

  • power, healing, and experise
  • power, precision, healing, and expertise
  • power, precision, ferocity, and either healing or expertise.

Dagger is like a utility weapon mashed with a power weapon so that any build using it is nerfed in some way, which would be fine if it was any good at anything it tries to do.

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@Anchoku.8142 said:MH dagger has little going for it, anymore. It is a short range power-weapon with 2-target cleave, channel siphon-heal, and boon corrupt with a bind. I find it redundant in every situation. Even a large dps buff may not solve the problem of what build might possibly make the most of it.

  • Core power-Necro and power-Scourge can camp axe more comfortably than ever before and axe has good range, now.

  • Condi builds all use scepter for MH and has OH dagger, war horn, and torch.

  • Power-Reaper builds use greatsword, often with axe or staff.

That said maybe its not the damage that need fixing perhaps sustain would be a more viable option that could work and benfiit all specs that use it. A built in leech on the auto chain a stronger leech on the channel siphon (stronger heal) and maybe 3 just gets a rework entirely.

If dagger became a semi vampuric aura for only the necro perhaps it might see more use when more self sustain is needed.???

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Doing justice to a sacrifice mechanic probably requires an elite spec level of design. It seems to me like the updates to dagger were focused on improving personal sustain away from or in addition to a dedicated support in PvP settings. I say PvP because Necro does not appear defense starved in PvE and the mechanics do not play well with party support, a notorious element consistent in Necro design. Maybe that is a pretty limited interpretation on my part.

In PvP, dagger saw use in power well builds before HoT but not really since, and is primarily used as a life force generator in PvE if I understand it correctly.

I think it deserves more of a rework and would do more design work for the Necro if it were transformed into a vampiric, martyr styled, ritualistic support weapon, healing nearby allies as it butchers the enemy. If the idea is to make dagger dagger a more complete set, add healing to allies in Enfeebling Blood alongside any group healing elements on mainhand skills, and turn Dark Pact into an AoE that draws conditions from allies (and boons from enemies?).

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@Allarius.5670 said:

In PvP, dagger saw use in power well builds before HoT but not really since, and is primarily used as a life force generator in PvE if I understand it correctly.

Dagger is actually worse off in PvE than it is in PvP. Cleave with 2 targets misses one on large hit boxes, corruptions and immob are not as useful, chill gives more sustain in a crowd than siphon, proc rates for on-crit sigils are capped, no mobility or pull skills, zero support for allies, and LF can be generated well enough on greatsword or axe. There are a lot of minor reasons MH dagger is not good as other choices in PvE. The result is that there are plenty of excuses to build around other weapons.

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The contrast between the quick AA and the longish animations of skill 2 and 3 is just too big. One of these skills should be significant faster, with dark pact needing a real buff. A one target immob just doenst cut it at the current level of powercreep.

I think turning skill 2 in a "tether" like skill that doenst require channeling after the initial cast would feel soooo good, further synergizing with skill 3.

Also they could retune the weapon into a more sustain like role. Giving the AA a good chunk of life siphon on the final hit, and giving some effect on dark pact (things like a debuff on the target, healing you when you strike it, or the debuff would cause your enemy to deal X% less damage (to you only). If you wanna go the dirty route the debuff could transfer some of the damage you take to the target, preventing it for you.

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