[Spoiler] Future Taimi...?

[Eekasqueak.7850]

@Rognik.2579 said:

@"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:Then there's the issue that concerns me the most and that's pertaining to how disabilities are handled. By calling Blish's golem form "beautiful" I think she's less praising his accomplishment (if it was his choice to transfer his mind into a golem) and more referring to herself as "ugly" indirectly, that the solution to her disability is some kind of transhuman (transasuran?) procedure. As someone with a disability (I'm Autistic), this isn't a positive message that Anet has been or is putting out. This whole situation feels more akin to disability erasure than empowerment, that unless I replace my disability with something that's considered "functional" and "acceptable" by society, I'm useless, worthless, and ugly.

Let's also not forget that Anet has gone out of their way to demonize her assistive technology by scrapping Scruffy not once, but twice. If they're willing to do that to her with just a golem of all things, imagine what kind of sabotage she could face at the hands of the Inquest or any other evil entity if she were to become a golem. I think becoming a golem would introduce more issues than fix them. I'd like to think that Taimi is smart enough to realize these issues that come with being golemized (but of course she's at the mercy of Anet's writing and...well...I wouldn't consider that to be reliable).

I think Anet needs to be really careful about how they handle this issue going forward with future episodes.As far as Taimi's disability is concerned, being autistic is slightly different from Taimi's disease because her disease has an element of pain to it, while to my knowledge, autism has no physical impairment to it. She likes the idea of transferring her consciousness to a golem, because it means she would no longer feel pain and it might save her life. However, we've only seen the start of this concept, not that she'll even try it yet. It's hard to say how this will end.

As for the death of Scruffy, the first one was meant to be a symbol of her sacrificing something precious of hers so that Mordremoth could be defeated. That one was fine. Scruffy 2.0 being destroyed in Daybreak... I can see why you might feel that way. Taimi is still useful and powerful without her golem, but it's just harder for her to get around, and she can't really fight outside of it. They're not demonizing the technology, as she liked and enjoyed it, but she is still helpful without her golem. She did build both golems all by herself, after all. And her being downloaded into a golem would be just as bad should someone try to hack her as if she were riding inside of one. Still, we don't know what's to come in Episode 3, so let's hope they tread this path carefully.

I thought Scruffy 2.0 was to show despite her brilliance, even by Asura stanards, her stuff has flaws. Which in this case seems to show she's not good at preventing her designs from being hacked into.

[Oglaf.1074]

You guys and your anti-undeath bigotry! Shame on you! (Kidding, kidding).

Seriously though, I strongly disagree with the notion that undeath is somehow inherently evil or bad. It is not. It is completely neutral, lacking of any kind of moral judgement whatsoever. What matters is the circumstances surrounding it:

When Awakening someone just to force them to forever suffer through having to kill other humans, that act is of course an evil one.

Someone volunteer to be Awakened in order to forever serve what they consider to be the greater good (a notion that is of course kinda twisted in Vabbi) is inherently a noble and good act. I mean, as I said in the case of Vabbi it really isn’t because of the context of Vabbi/Joko but... yeah.

Also, consider the case of the dwarves: Ogden is currently existing in a form of undeath in order to guide and help the other races. His stone form probably lacks the sensations and warmth of being alive, and he probably doesn’t eat nor drink. He’s a zombie made out of rock (as evident by that other dwarf in Ember Bay who exists as merely a head!). Yet everyone who knows about the dwarves consider their sacrifice a good and noble one.

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"Ardid.7203" said:Indeed!The problem with Joko is not his necromantic skill, it is his desire of power and control over other beings. The awakening can in fact be considered something good, if it were used for good purposes.

I did mention that you scare the hell out of me, didn't I? ;) Undeath is

never

a "good" thing. Living as a rotting corpse is

not

a desireable state. You can't even call it "living" to begin with. (shudders)

i guess is on Pirates of the Caribbean franchise that mentions how undeath state sucks, theyre "animated" but unable to feel taste of things, smells or the sense of touch. is basically a punishment.

The Awakened are well-preserved mummies and their bodies/corpses undergo extensive procedures to ensure that their bodies aren’t akin to the rotten, broken and decaying Risen of Orr.

Once you get past the initial shock of not feeling anything, no desire to drink or eat etc. I don’t think the mere state of being Awakened is uncomfortable at all - quite the opposite given the lack of sensation.

It is definitely the “premium luxury package” when it comes to undeath. ;)

[Ardid.7203]

Great post, Olaf. And great conversation, everyone. I truly think this is a theme we'll be discussing even on real life if we stay alive another 20 or 30 years...

It is also worth mentioning the Exalted, who actively let their bodies behind to defend the egg and pursue Glint's plan. They did exactly what Blish did, and what Taimi seems to value, only through golden magic means instead of black necromancy or metallic technology.

Personally, I like the motto of Eclipse Phase a lot:

• Your mind is software. Program it.
• Your body is a shell. Change it.
• Death is a disease. Cure it.
• Extinction is approaching. Fight it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"Ardid.7203" said:Indeed!The problem with Joko is not his necromantic skill, it is his desire of power and control over other beings. The awakening can in fact be considered something good, if it were used for good purposes.

I did mention that you scare the hell out of me, didn't I? ;) Undeath is

never

a "good" thing. Living as a rotting corpse is

not

a desireable state. You can't even call it "living" to begin with. (shudders)

Specifically on the bit of rotting, to be fair given that undead who are a century or more old look just like undead who are brand new in the game (which is undoubtedly purely a mechanical representation and limitation), but more importantly we have Joko who has been around for at least 6 centuries, and almost all Awakened in GW1 were over 200 years old, this shows that decay can be ceased or greatly slowed by the magic.

For all intents and purposes, a fresh corpse could be reanimated, without any decay to it. Would one be distinguishable from living at that point, if the only difference was a bit of a pulse?

But I would agree with Oglaf that undeath is simply neutral, much like how necromancy in GW is treated as neutral just like any other form of magic. Something that could be used for either good or evil - even dragon corruption is this, as we see the Pale Tree and Glint using that magic for good purposes.

[Ashantara.8731]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:but more importantly we have Joko who has been around for at least 6 centuries, and almost all Awakened in GW1 were over 200 years old, this shows that decay can be ceased or greatly slowed by the magic.

Joko has had beauty surgery, don't fool me. ;)

For all intents and purposes, a fresh corpse could be reanimated, without any decay to it. Would one be distinguishable from living at that point, if the only difference was a bit of a pulse?

Even in GW, all undead show signs of decay, even "fresh" ones, just like in television and movies -- you can always spot a walking corpse ;) (unless covered by an illusion spell). Vampires are the only ones still looking "fresh", though a bit pale due to the lack of pulsating blood in their veins. :)

The only GW figure that eludes the image of a "typical undead" (and that's probably because magically extending your life span does not equal dying and being raised from your grave) is Livia, no?

[Oglaf.1074]

Again, Joko and his friends are mummies. It is not too far off to say that they literally have had cosmetic surgery in order to look their best (embalming, mummification etc). They make sure that they won’t end up like the common undead like the Risen who don’t really mind if an arm rots and falls off.

[Ashantara.8731]

@"Oglaf.1074" said:Again, Joko and his friends are mummies. [...]

I know, but mummies do not look "fresh", either. You recognize them as undead creatures at sight, just like you immediately recognize a zombie.

[Oglaf.1074]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"Oglaf.1074" said:Again, Joko and his friends are mummies. [...]

I know, but mummies do not look "fresh", either. You recognize them as undead creatures at sight, just like you immediately recognize a zombie.

Yeah but they’re more like top-notch dried beef jerky rather than the green soggy, oozing meat you forgot in the fridge for the past few years is my point. ;)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Ashantara.8731" said:Even in GW, all undead show signs of decay, even "fresh" ones, just like in television and movies -- you can always spot a walking corpse ;) (unless covered by an illusion spell). Vampires are the only ones still looking "fresh", though a bit pale due to the lack of pulsating blood in their veins. :)

The only GW figure that eludes the image of a "typical undead" (and that's probably because magically extending your life span does not equal dying and being raised from your grave) is Livia, no?

Because the designers want it to be unquestionable that they are undead. Except when it should be for the plot, of course. Khilbron for example. But you'll see "all GW undead showing signs of undead" because they will share models with more generic undead for the sake of ease.

There are games and movies, and even books, out there where there are undead that look like living, though. Heck, most zombie movies begin with showing us very non-decayed zombies, only their actions to give them away. Usually this is done for cases of "smart undead pretending to be living" ala Khilbron again.

Regarding Livia, nothing says she's undead.

[Yereton.8647]

Furthermore, while I don't know if this is mentioned in lore directly, we see in the Domain of Vabbi (at the courthouse with the judges), potential Awakened candidates are already wrapped up in cloth. So it is not too far fetched to think that they are already already mummified and embalmed before they are even touched by magic. Which probably further helps stem decay (as seen in RL mummies) and changes their appearance to something distinctly Awakened.

Furthermore, in guild wars it seems that necrotic magic seems to speed up decay and shape the flesh (though I am not sure how much this is mechanics and how much can be chalked up to lore) when raising undead. For example, in gw1 necromancer magic creates undead horrors immediately, in Sea of Sorrows book decay seems almost instantaneous when a Risen is made; and I think there was something along those lines in Ghosts of Ascalon too (don't have my copy on hand to check).

So it is very possible that due to the increased decay during raising the undead, all or most awakened look all leathery rather than rotting is because the awakened are embalmed before hand which helps stop the decay, but not quite enough to look like a normal person.

[Omega.6801]

There is an Asura personal story that makes Mecha-Taimi a possibility.Still I think what we've seen at the end of chapter 2 was 1) Taimi is very happy that Blish is safe and sound...Gorrik too I suppose and 2) Blish is totally into Taimi at least he's into her intelect.I have the feeling the future of Taimi will be something along these lines: There will be romance between Blish and Taimi, Gorrik will become the third wheel and will turn to his Inquest ways out of spite. We will have to put him down at some point.

[Ashantara.8731]

@lokh.2695 said:I have the feeling the future of Taimi will be something along these lines: There will be romance between Blish and Taimi, Gorrik will become the third wheel and will turn to his Inquest ways out of spite. We will have to put him down at some point.

I don't think so. I really do believe that Taimi will want to merge with a machine (Robocop, anyone?) and that Blish will be the only one who can stop her.

Where does it say that Gorrik was Inquest? I thought he was abducted and forced to work for them... (?)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Ashantara.8731 said:Where does it say that Gorrik was Inquest? I thought he was abducted and forced to work for them... (?)

The entire episode, really.... Both Blish and Gorrik willingly turned to work with the Inquest.

Besides, prisoners wouldn't have had as much access as Gorrik did.

I don't see Gorrik going all evil because his robro got a girlfriend though. Not only is he the younger brother, so likely younger than Taimi by a little (unless Blish was Taimi's upperclassman) but he doesn't seem to have interest in Taimi IMO. Seemed more like friends than anything else.

[Zaklex.6308]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:By calling Blish's golem form "beautiful" I think she's less praising his accomplishment

I do not think so. There was a certain tone in her voice that made it sound like something "clicked" in her head.

As someone with a disability (I'm Autistic), this isn't a positive message that Anet has been or is putting out. This whole situation feels more akin to disability erasure than empowerment, that unless I replace my disability with something that's considered "functional" and "acceptable" by society, I'm useless, worthless, and ugly.

I don't see that. ANet has, on the contrary, shown that disabilities do

not

make you a less valuable being and that you equally contribute to society, even when you have to overcome certain hurdles that others don't.

If Taimi is indeed flirting with the idea of "becoming a machine" (so to speak), that would be more of a dramatic story-telling element than anything else (such "horror visions" have been around in literature for a long, long time).

Also, people with deseases like spina bifida, for instance, are having a really tough time getting around without any help. Now, Taimi is a

very

proud and

extremely

arrogant (comes with the race of the asura) being who doesn't like asking for help but strives for complete independency - so her good intentions to make life easier for herself and possibly others with physical disabilities, that one day might render them highly dependable on others, can turn into said horror vision of "becoming a machine". It is easy to get corrupted that way (again, this is ficton, not reality) and transform you into a genius megalomaniac when suddenly you realize that your invention can also grant you (and your genius mind) eternal existence.

Yes, something did "click" in her head, but I don't think it was the idea of putting her mind into a golem, instead it was something else entirely...though what that is I'm not sure...it was just in the way the entire scene unfolded, and the afterwards. I think the after is more important than the actual realization of what Blish had done to himself.

[Ayakaru.6583]

@Arzurag.7506 said:Imagine taimi being able to copy and paste her mind/intellect into different constructions.Well, why not having a mechanical greatsword that speaks with taimi´s voice and just doesn´t stop talking ?^^

Ah yes, what can possibly go wrong(Fi just worked out greeaat)