Nerfed.

[Vague Memory.2817]

Dude, just sounds like you can't handle chrono. I've mained Mes since the start as power shatter, and Chrono since HoT. Chrono has been nerfed quite a lot already, it is not what used to be. The damage was pretty weak compared to other classes, especially power chrono. You can counter this as much as you want, but the proof is in the changes they made were all adding damage for power chrono, but mirage got it too. Read why they made the changes, there was whole thread on it.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Vague Memory.2817 said:Dude, just sounds like you can't handle chrono. I've mained Mes since the start as power shatter, and Chrono since HoT. Chrono has been nerfed quite a lot already, it is not what used to be. The damage was pretty weak compared to other classes, especially power chrono. You can counter this as much as you want, but the proof is in the changes they made were all adding damage for power chrono, but mirage got it too. Read why they made the changes, there was whole thread on it.

Just because Chrono wasnt an unkillable spec that could prevent any deaths and node caps throughout an entire game like it could in Season 1 doesn't mean it isnt overpowered.

It is an absurdly dominant spec with 2-4 spots in every platinum tier game and dominating ever automated tournament.

The rework made it so that since Phantasms are designed to only use a skill once, they are freed from the burden of carrying a mesmer's damage an entire 10 minute fight. This allowed all of them (Except warden) to be rebalanced to be as impactful as other classes' 4+5 skills and utility skills. All of them are now fully capable of ending a fight if landing now. And this is cool.

But whats not cool is when one build is taking the redesigned phantasms, which are very impactful but mostly balanced now, and literally multiplying their huge impact by 4X.

[Vagrant.7206]

@ZDragon.3046 said:Risk is doing something that causes self harm and can cause a massive sway when used. There is no sway on the mesmers part when SoE is used outside of my heal is down. That can be said for every other profession that uses a heal. Necros and Revs are the only real risk users you will see in this game.

Holosmith says hi!

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@"ZDragon.3046" said:As i said regardless of what they do all specs of mesmer will end up stronger than what they were before its "Personal rework" and thats nothing to sneeze at. Enjoy the fact that your profession of choice got a personal retouch that was as anet put it "The closest thing we have done outside creating a new elite spec" and that it actually improved it on all fronts.

Its incredible to see people sit here and act like its not enough still even after all that.

All what? They are working on a profession mechanic after 10 years. Of course it takes a while and people want it done right.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

@ZDragon.3046 said:Necros and Revs are the only real risk users you will see in this game.

Haha what. You think Necros are risk users because they pull conditions to themselves? That's adorable.

[apharma.3741]

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Necros and Revs are the only real risk users you will see in this game.

Haha what. You think Necros are risk users because they pull conditions to themselves? That's adorable.

But revs are risky because despite all the damage while evading, block, blind, double heals, teleports and easy access to 25 might and insanely high damage on most skills they die to 3 bleeds and 2 cover conditions!!1

Also this change in the patch was everything I feared to see, not an actual rework just some numbers jiggling.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Risk is doing something that causes self harm and can cause a massive sway when used. There is no sway on the mesmers part when SoE is used outside of my heal is down. That can be said for every other profession that uses a heal. Necros and Revs are the only real risk users you will see in this game.

Holosmith says hi!

I started to include them in that line due to how their over heating systems work. But then again I rarely see holosmiths over heat unless they are trying to on purpose.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:Haha what. You think Necros are risk users because they pull conditions to themselves? That's adorable.

Whats even more adorable is your sense of humor :'DPulling a single stack of slow, chilled, or cripple can completely screw you sense you have very low mobility. Pulling blinds can completely make you miss key skills not to mention that whole branch of utility that inflicts self conditions.Key note i said they are risk users as in they are the only professions that have real risk reward trade offs unlike many other professions who can generally get away with doing things without self harm or impairment in exchange for something else. That is whats known as risk/reward.This does not mean everyone uses the things that causes that self harm and impairment.

But revs are risky because despite all the damage while evading, block, blind, double heals, teleports and easy access to 25 might and insanely high damage on most skills they die to 3 bleeds and 2 cover conditions!!1

They also have alot more burst and mobility than necros and many more evades. But i think you missed my point its not the mobility evades and damage.

Its the risk that evey skill on your bar consumes energy using them without considering what you are really trying to do or not keeping track of you energy can cause you to be locked out of skills completely which is a form of self impairment.Im not talking about the fact that the profession has no condi clear. Thats a different layer of risk entirely.

Also this change in the patch was everything I feared to see, not an actual rework just some numbers jiggling.

And this patch was a quick fix to whats to come later they already confirmed mesmer will get more shaving in other areas in the next balance patch and that they do have a date for the next balance patch but cannot release what is getting cut or when that date is.

[Lunalight.8120]

Can we get a CD reduction on Echo of Memory now that we have lost both Illusionists Celerity aswell as the insta recharge via Ether Signet?

[Zaraki.5784]

I hope you'll get nerfed even more, hated mesmers!

[apharma.3741]

@ZDragon.3046 said:They also have alot more burst and mobility than necros and many more evades. But i think you missed my point its not the mobility evades and damage.

Its the risk that evey skill on your bar consumes energy using them without considering what you are really trying to do or not keeping track of you energy can cause you to be locked out of skills completely which is a form of self impairment.Im not talking about the fact that the profession has no condi clear. Thats a different layer of risk entirely.

They also enjoy lower cool downs on very impactful skills as well as the easiest class to stack 25 might on, literally not even holo can stack might as fast as rev and holo was considered broken for how easily it did this. What you are stating is learning curve not risk reward, learning not to spam your skills is the trick to learning rev, it's risk is quite low considering it has a 12s CD block and blind, 12s CD evade while doing damage, evade, stunbreak and movement impairing cleanse on shiro, stunbreak and defiant stance with perma fury which gives 40% crit chance. Make no mistake for a power vs power class rev is not high risk, not even close.

The reason rev is considered weak is it has absolutely terrible condition cleansing, it's literally the weakest class to conditions.

@ZDragon.3046 said:And this patch was a quick fix to whats to come later they already confirmed mesmer will get more shaving in other areas in the next balance patch and that they do have a date for the next balance patch but cannot release what is getting cut or when that date is.

ANet don't revert balance changes after 1 patch usually. This means this change is likely here to stay, which means rather than the redesign of these problem skills and traits we will likely see only a toning down which means ANet is happy with the functionality, a functionality many players do not like. The other option is they Smiters Boon chronophantasma and phantasms so no-one really uses them, I shouldn't have to explain why that is bad, if you don't understand the term look it up on GWW.

[apharma.3741]

@"Takashiro.8701" said:Can we get a CD reduction on Echo of Memory now that we have lost both Illusionists Celerity aswell as the insta recharge via Ether Signet?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block

From this we can see that the closest skill to Echo of memory is Shield Stance which has 25s CD for 3s block. You can trait it to 20s and for all blocks to reflect.Echo of memory only starts it's cool down once it has been used and deja vu has been used if triggered.31.5s minimum cool down. 1.5s block.41s maximum cool down if you delay deja vu by 9.5s. 3s block.

Now obviously it's not all there is, chrono gets alacrity which is not that strong if you aren't taking improved alacrity. If we assume 50% alacrity uptime we can adjust the cool downs as follows from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Alacrity

28.5s minimum cool down. 1.5s block.37s maximum cool down if you delay deja vu by 9.5s. 3s block.

With improved alacrity at 50% uptime:

26.5s minimum cool down. 1.5s block.34.2s maximum cool down if you delay deja vu by 9.5s. 3s block.

For kicks here's with 100% improved alacrity:

21s minimum cool down. 1.5s block.27.3s maximum cool down if you delay deja vu by 9.5s. 3s block.

However you also get a damaging phantasm and clone or two, but these can be dodged to prevent the summon. It's worth mentioning that it's not likely you will get 100% improved alacrity uptime and really we should at most look at 50% uptime. I do think that SotE should be changed from it's current functionality, if such a change was implemented I do think the cool down should be looked at, perhaps reverting it to recharging as soon as the first echo of memory has been used.

It's also worth mentioning 50% alacrity uptime would need at least leadership runes and some investment in either stats or for WvW people food and concentration sigil, even then it would be very difficult to get just through shatters so a signet of inspiration would likely be needed also.

[ZDragon.3046]

@apharma.3741 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:They also have alot more burst and mobility than necros and many more evades. But i think you missed my point its not the mobility evades and damage.

Its the risk that evey skill on your bar consumes energy using them without considering what you are really trying to do or not keeping track of you energy can cause you to be locked out of skills completely which is a form of self impairment.Im not talking about the fact that the profession has no condi clear. Thats a different layer of risk entirely.

They also enjoy lower cool downs on very impactful skills as well as the easiest class to stack 25 might on, literally not even holo can stack might as fast as rev and holo was considered broken for how easily it did this. What you are stating is learning curve not risk reward, learning not to spam your skills is the trick to learning rev, it's risk is quite low considering it has a 12s CD block and blind, 12s CD evade while doing damage, evade, stunbreak and movement impairing cleanse on shiro, stunbreak and defiant stance with perma fury which gives 40% crit chance. Make no mistake for a power vs power class rev is not high risk, not even close.

You are still looking at a completely different type of risk factor and trying to say its not risk because of the things you just listed.Thats the reward for being limited to how many skills you can use in rapid succession. At no time can you as a rev go through every skill on your bar and have energy left unlike you can with all the other professions. Your skills are impactful if you manage them well. You do not understand the base concepts of risk reward because you dont play something that shares a real risk with the reward or you play something where the reward is weighted so heavily imbalanced over the risk that there appears to be no risk.

Edit:Not to mention are you really going to continue the argument of risk reward when it comes to mesmer risk vs rev risk which was the initial comparison come one now.....

The reason rev is considered weak is it has absolutely terrible condition cleansing, it's literally the weakest class to conditions.

Incorrect actually... Reve does not have condition cleansing because it has the ability to ignore conditions with mallyx. (While this could be arguably buffed a bit to make it slightly more condition resistant) not having condition cleanse is not what makes the profession weak. Not having condition cleanse is a general counter to to rev but that does not make it weak.

What makes the profession weak is the fact that its trait lines and the majority of its legends are super situational and do not sync with one another very well. It tries to to be good at being a multi role profession but is very subpar at many of the roles. Most of its healing skills are lack luster and its far too dependent upon Herald. Herald is arguably like scourge with necro right now it makes the profession its own thing and the core profession leeches too heavily on those e specs.

@ZDragon.3046 said:And this patch was a quick fix to whats to come later they already confirmed mesmer will get more shaving in other areas in the next balance patch and that they do have a date for the next balance patch but cannot release what is getting cut or when that date is.

ANet don't revert balance changes after 1 patch usually. This means this change is likely here to stay, which means rather than the redesign of these problem skills and traits we will likely see only a toning down which means ANet is happy with the functionality, a functionality many players do not like. The other option is they Smiters Boon chronophantasma and phantasms so no-one really uses them, I shouldn't have to explain why that is bad, if you don't understand the term look it up on GWW.

What you mean to say "ANet don't revert balance changes after 1 patch usually unless its causing an massive up roar or problem." Which this obviously has.You can goo look up several recent dev post (The last 2-3 days) and find where they have said these things out in the open like it or not more is going to be shaved off of mesmer because it needs to happen. Deal with it and be satisfied with the fact that you will still be better off than you were before the rework.

[apharma.3741]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:They also have alot more burst and mobility than necros and many more evades. But i think you missed my point its not the mobility evades and damage.

Its the risk that evey skill on your bar consumes energy using them without considering what you are really trying to do or not keeping track of you energy can cause you to be locked out of skills completely which is a form of self impairment.Im not talking about the fact that the profession has no condi clear. Thats a different layer of risk entirely.

They also enjoy lower cool downs on very impactful skills as well as the easiest class to stack 25 might on, literally not even holo can stack might as fast as rev and holo was considered broken for how easily it did this. What you are stating is learning curve not risk reward, learning not to spam your skills is the trick to learning rev, it's risk is quite low considering it has a 12s CD block and blind, 12s CD evade while doing damage, evade, stunbreak and movement impairing cleanse on shiro, stunbreak and defiant stance with perma fury which gives 40% crit chance. Make no mistake for a power vs power class rev is not high risk, not even close.

You are still looking at a completely different type of risk factor and trying to say its not risk because of the things you just listed.Thats the reward for being limited to how many skills you can use in rapid succession. At no time can you as a rev go through every skill on your bar and have energy left unlike you can with all the other professions. Your skills are impactful if you manage them well. You do not understand the base concepts of risk reward because you dont play something that shares a real risk with the reward or you play something where the reward is weighted so heavily imbalanced over the risk that there appears to be no risk.

Edit:Not to mention are you really going to continue the argument of risk reward when it comes to mesmer risk vs rev risk which was the initial comparison come one now.....

The reason rev is considered weak is it has absolutely terrible condition cleansing, it's literally the weakest class to conditions.

Incorrect actually... Reve does not have condition cleansing because it has the ability to ignore conditions with mallyx. (While this could be arguably buffed a bit to make it slightly more condition resistant) not having condition cleanse is not what makes the profession weak. Not having condition cleanse is a general counter to to rev but that does not make it weak.

What makes the profession weak is the fact that its trait lines and the majority of its legends are super situational and do not sync with one another very well. It tries to to be good at being a multi role profession but is very subpar at many of the roles. Most of its healing skills are lack luster and its far too dependent upon Herald. Herald is arguably like scourge with necro right now it makes the profession its own thing and the core profession leeches too heavily on those e specs.

@ZDragon.3046 said:And this patch was a quick fix to whats to come later they already confirmed mesmer will get more shaving in other areas in the next balance patch and that they do have a date for the next balance patch but cannot release what is getting cut or when that date is.

ANet don't revert balance changes after 1 patch usually. This means this change is likely here to stay, which means rather than the redesign of these problem skills and traits we will likely see only a toning down which means ANet is happy with the functionality, a functionality many players do not like. The other option is they Smiters Boon chronophantasma and phantasms so no-one really uses them, I shouldn't have to explain why that is bad, if you don't understand the term look it up on GWW.

What you mean to say

"ANet don't revert balance changes after 1 patch usually unless its causing an massive up roar or problem."

Which this obviously has.You can goo look up several recent dev post (The last 2-3 days) and find where they have said these things out in the open like it or not more is going to be shaved off of mesmer because it needs to happen. Deal with it and be satisfied with the fact that you will still be better off than you were before the rework.

Yes, my grieving/celestial weaver is the epitome of high reward for low risk as is infinite horizon, full zerk interrupt mesmer. Go look up jazzman’s video, it’s not high risk high reward but it’s certainly got more counter play than most current meta builds and the current low risk high reward mesmer build. Nice of you to presume what I play though.

Yes with mallyx but if you don’t take mallyx legend you have limited to barely any condition cleansing/management from other sources. Revs do not have many ways to handle conditions outside of mallyx, a legend that is pretty terrible for power builds, this is the problem.

Builds with high amounts of scalable defences (like SB used to be when they had 9s FC, current chaos/insp/chrono) have low risks especially when those defences are on low cool and accompanied by high damage. Rev isn’t high risk vs power builds, medium risk maybe but it’s high damage output gives it a high reward. It has a high skill floor because you need to properly manage your energy and to use your skills and legend swaps at the right time to maintain energy and defences.

[Vagrant.7206]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Risk is doing something that causes self harm and can cause a massive sway when used. There is no sway on the mesmers part when SoE is used outside of my heal is down. That can be said for every other profession that uses a heal. Necros and Revs are the only real risk users you will see in this game.

Holosmith says hi!

I started to include them in that line due to how their over heating systems work. But then again I rarely see holosmiths over heat unless they are trying to on purpose.

That's because they are actively trying to avoid overheating. Most PvP builds don't use Photonic Blasting Module, so overheating is a massive, massive downside. I've only ever intentionally overheated if I felt that I needed just a little bit more to finish someone.

[ZDragon.3046]

@apharma.3741 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:They also have alot more burst and mobility than necros and many more evades. But i think you missed my point its not the mobility evades and damage.

Its the risk that evey skill on your bar consumes energy using them without considering what you are really trying to do or not keeping track of you energy can cause you to be locked out of skills completely which is a form of self impairment.Im not talking about the fact that the profession has no condi clear. Thats a different layer of risk entirely.

They also enjoy lower cool downs on very impactful skills as well as the easiest class to stack 25 might on, literally not even holo can stack might as fast as rev and holo was considered broken for how easily it did this. What you are stating is learning curve not risk reward, learning not to spam your skills is the trick to learning rev, it's risk is quite low considering it has a 12s CD block and blind, 12s CD evade while doing damage, evade, stunbreak and movement impairing cleanse on shiro, stunbreak and defiant stance with perma fury which gives 40% crit chance. Make no mistake for a power vs power class rev is not high risk, not even close.

You are still looking at a completely different type of risk factor and trying to say its not risk because of the things you just listed.Thats the reward for being limited to how many skills you can use in rapid succession. At no time can you as a rev go through every skill on your bar and have energy left unlike you can with all the other professions. Your skills are impactful if you manage them well. You do not understand the base concepts of risk reward because you dont play something that shares a real risk with the reward or you play something where the reward is weighted so heavily imbalanced over the risk that there appears to be no risk.

Edit:Not to mention are you really going to continue the argument of risk reward when it comes to mesmer risk vs rev risk which was the initial comparison come one now.....

The reason rev is considered weak is it has absolutely terrible condition cleansing, it's literally the weakest class to conditions.

Incorrect actually... Reve does not have condition cleansing because it has the ability to ignore conditions with mallyx. (While this could be arguably buffed a bit to make it slightly more condition resistant) not having condition cleanse is not what makes the profession weak. Not having condition cleanse is a general counter to to rev but that does not make it weak.

What makes the profession weak is the fact that its trait lines and the majority of its legends are super situational and do not sync with one another very well. It tries to to be good at being a multi role profession but is very subpar at many of the roles. Most of its healing skills are lack luster and its far too dependent upon Herald. Herald is arguably like scourge with necro right now it makes the profession its own thing and the core profession leeches too heavily on those e specs.

@ZDragon.3046 said:And this patch was a quick fix to whats to come later they already confirmed mesmer will get more shaving in other areas in the next balance patch and that they do have a date for the next balance patch but cannot release what is getting cut or when that date is.

ANet don't revert balance changes after 1 patch usually. This means this change is likely here to stay, which means rather than the redesign of these problem skills and traits we will likely see only a toning down which means ANet is happy with the functionality, a functionality many players do not like. The other option is they Smiters Boon chronophantasma and phantasms so no-one really uses them, I shouldn't have to explain why that is bad, if you don't understand the term look it up on GWW.

What you mean to say

"ANet don't revert balance changes after 1 patch usually unless its causing an massive up roar or problem."

Which this obviously has.You can goo look up several recent dev post (The last 2-3 days) and find where they have said these things out in the open like it or not more is going to be shaved off of mesmer because it needs to happen. Deal with it and be satisfied with the fact that you will still be better off than you were before the rework.

Yes, my grieving/celestial weaver is the epitome of high reward for low risk as is infinite horizon, full zerk interrupt mesmer. Go look up jazzman’s video, it’s not high risk high reward but it’s certainly got more counter play than most current meta builds and the current low risk high reward mesmer build. Nice of you to presume what I play though.

I can agree with this statement on interrupt mesmer while its still frustrating to be 1 shot by it from stealth if you manage to dodge the first burst attempt or some how ignore it then yes you have a chance to actually get at them.

Yes with mallyx but if you don’t take mallyx legend you have limited to barely any condition cleansing/management from other sources. Revs do not have many ways to handle conditions outside of mallyx, a legend that is pretty terrible for power builds, this is the problem.

That falls into the each legend not syncing well with others as a whole category. But i dont want to ramble too much about rev as this is an entirely different conversation itself.

Builds with high amounts of scalable defences (like SB used to be when they had 9s FC, current chaos/insp/chrono) have low risks especially when those defences are on low cool and accompanied by high damage. Rev isn’t high risk vs power builds, medium risk maybe but it’s high damage output gives it a high reward. It has a high skill floor because you need to properly manage your energy and to use your skills and legend swaps at the right time to maintain energy and defences.

Ok statement is much more realistic in nature and i can agree on most of what you say here. While i think in alot of match ups rev is still pretty risky even against power builds its just risk heavy in general right now and likely always will be.

In mind the whole risk conversation started because some one though that popping SoE early on for more dps and instant resets on several skills was a real risk factor that is worthy of allowing it to say as it is in the current system and I highly disagree with that. I see it as no more of a risk as any other heal thats used offensively while providing even more reward in offensive power while any what would be already minimal risk popping that cd is reduced by the flow of alacrity ( even though its been reduced )