Nerfs other than mesmer.

[whoknocks.4935]

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:Yeah keep nerfing spellbreaker over and over and leave mesmer untouched.

Warrior is in a really good spot right now, and if you complain of spellbreaker you are just a bad player.

I am not even a warrior main and i am saying this, scourge and mesmer are the top spammy reward professions who needs a tone down.

Your absolutely right about that! Warrior is in a good spot right now. Not only it can still dish out a good amount of unblockble damage, it does it while immunity procs to all damage with out even pressing a key stroke. kitten good place!

That's warrior since beta, and I remind you how many freaking times spellbreaker got nerfed from release.

Full counter got worked already multiple times, if you have problems with warriors it's l2p issue.

Never see comps running double warrior because it's op.All i see is double scourge and double mesmer because they are easy to play, low risk high reward.

If you complain of warrior sorry, but you are a bronze silver kid who still has to understand what pvp is and how to play.

[whoknocks.4935]

@Vagrant.7206 said:I love how many people complain about holosmith's damage and sustain, despite repeated significant nerfs to both of these already. Do you want holosmith to be just as useful as core engineer, scrapper, or revenant? lul, it's supposed to be high damage.

As for the sustain... seriously, the meta build for holo is almost entirely focused on being a bruiser (bruiser ammie, all utility skills are defensive, traits mostly defensive), because otherwise the spec would fall apart in seconds, thanks to the bizarre way ArenaNet has chosen to nerf it. It can't disengage nearly as easily as a mesmer, thief, or warrior can, so it needs overall higher damage and a bit more sustain.

---

Besides mesmer... some nerfs or changes I'd like to see:

• I still dislike the way scourge allows for braindead play. I've detailed a few fixes, but it seems ArenaNet has also gone the braindead way of nerfing it (cooldown increases), instead of trying to make the spec require more intelligence to play well. Sigh. Change Sand Savant and/or make it so that the scourge themselves are not shades.
• I dislike how easily a skilled warrior can disengage and reset the entire fight. There's a few fixes that would be relatively simple without destroying the whole class, such as reducing the distance traveled by Rush, or removing the evade frames on whirlwind. The class already gets a ton of defensive advantages, it doesn't need the disengage potential too.
• Firebrand boonspam needs to be toned down, still.

I don't have too much besides that. Here are some buffs I think we should see:

• Core necro/reaper could use some buffing (reaper needs a better way to get around, too slow for a melee class).
• Scrapper needs a better way to get around, and some way to deal with the constant corruption from scourges that turn scrapper into a wet noodle.
• Core engineer... needs a whole lot done. It's just too slow, too little damage, too vulnerable, no stability. It's all the risk, and none of the reward.
• All of revenant needs a whole lot of work. It needs more damage and sustain, less cheese abilities. Plus more customizable utilities.
• Core ele/tempest could do with some buffs.

Warrior being the only melee fighter needs disengage, especially from stupid aoe bombs of scourge when you run out of resistance.Warrior kite and disengage ability is nowhere near what a stupid mesmer can have, he literally reset a fight in a matter of seconds.

Able to disengage a fight it's a must every profession should have, but when it's at the level of mesmer or thief is way too much.

Btw holosmith on mid team fight or node sider using demolisher as well and HLA is way tankier than a warrior itself, and holosmith has his disengage ability too.

[Vagrant.7206]

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:I love how many people complain about holosmith's damage and sustain, despite repeated significant nerfs to both of these already. Do you want holosmith to be just as useful as core engineer, scrapper, or revenant? lul, it's supposed to be high damage.

As for the sustain... seriously, the meta build for holo is almost entirely focused on being a bruiser (bruiser ammie, all utility skills are defensive, traits mostly defensive), because otherwise the spec would fall apart in seconds, thanks to the bizarre way ArenaNet has chosen to nerf it. It can't disengage nearly as easily as a mesmer, thief, or warrior can, so it needs overall higher damage and a bit more sustain.

---

Besides mesmer... some nerfs or changes I'd like to see:

• I still dislike the way scourge allows for braindead play. I've detailed a few fixes, but it seems ArenaNet has also gone the braindead way of nerfing it (cooldown increases), instead of trying to make the spec require more intelligence to play well. Sigh. Change Sand Savant and/or make it so that the scourge themselves are not shades.
• I dislike how easily a skilled warrior can disengage and reset the entire fight. There's a few fixes that would be relatively simple without destroying the whole class, such as reducing the distance traveled by Rush, or removing the evade frames on whirlwind. The class already gets a ton of defensive advantages, it doesn't need the disengage potential too.
• Firebrand boonspam needs to be toned down, still.

I don't have too much besides that. Here are some buffs I think we should see:

• Core necro/reaper could use some buffing (reaper needs a better way to get around, too slow for a melee class).
• Scrapper needs a better way to get around, and some way to deal with the constant corruption from scourges that turn scrapper into a wet noodle.
• Core engineer... needs a whole lot done. It's just too slow, too little damage, too vulnerable, no stability. It's all the risk, and none of the reward.
• All of revenant needs a whole lot of work. It needs more damage and sustain, less cheese abilities. Plus more customizable utilities.
• Core ele/tempest could do with some buffs.

Warrior being the only melee fighter needs disengage, especially from stupid aoe bombs of scourge when you run out of resistance.Warrior kite and disengage ability is nowhere near what a stupid mesmer can have, he literally reset a fight in a matter of seconds.

Able to disengage a fight it's a must every profession should have, but when it's at the level of mesmer or thief is way too much.

Btw holosmith on mid team fight or node sider using demolisher as well and HLA is way tankier than a warrior itself, and holosmith has his disengage ability too.

But warrior is not the only melee fighter... that's demonstrably untrue. Thieves and holos occupy the melee space as well. Thieves obviously have their disengage, but the only real disengage a holo has access to is rocket boots. That's it, and it's not even that good unless specifically traited. It doesn't have evade frames, nor is it as fast as rush is.

The thing is, I often see warriors running two melee sets -- typically axe/shield and greatsword or dagger/shield and greatsword, but they're often still able to disengage like a ranged class can thanks to Greatsword's utility. As I main one of the slower classes in the game (engineer), it's spectacularly obnoxious for a warrior to simply rush off and have all my cripple/immob/CC skills miss because they either move so fast (from Rush, which causes net shot to miss horribly, overcharged shot gets outranged too fast) or they're evading (from whirlwind attack). With the right set of utilities, they also have access to way more CC than engineers. It's like warriors to get to have their cake and eat it too. If rush was 1/2 a second slower at reaching its destination, it would be enough.

[Ashgar.3024]

@Vagrant.7206 said:I love how many people complain about holosmith's damage and sustain, despite repeated significant nerfs to both of these already. Do you want holosmith to be just as useful as core engineer, scrapper, or revenant? lul, it's supposed to be high damage.

Problem with Holo's damage is the amount of efforts you have to put into it. I play it as my 3rd character to grind the backpack and compared to my Thief (any build, i play all of them) and Rev (Power Shiro, haven't bothered with anything else) its mind boggling to me the amount of pressure i do on my Holo while honestly not being that great on it. It feels like it does what Rev should do, but just better because it can stick into fights while Rev needs to play hit and run because of its shitty sustain.

Otherwise, for people hating on Deadeye, its a fun spec, does it fit the mold people forced Thieves into for the last 5 years? No. Does it mean it should be neutered? No. If you're decently competitive about the game you're unlikely to see any of them anyway, its not a spec meant for high end ladder grinding. Its not mobile enough and very easy to focus fire, something that shouldn't be too difficult for Plat 2 players and above.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Griever.8150 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:I love how many people complain about holosmith's damage and sustain, despite repeated significant nerfs to both of these already. Do you want holosmith to be just as useful as core engineer, scrapper, or revenant? lul, it's supposed to be high damage.

Problem with Holo's damage is the amount of efforts you have to put into it. I play it as my 3rd character to grind the backpack and compared to my Thief (any build, i play all of them) and Rev (Power Shiro, haven't bothered with anything else) its mind boggling to me the amount of pressure i do on my Holo while honestly not being that great on it. It honestly feels like it does what Rev should do, but just better because it can stick into fights while Rev needs to play hit and run because of its kitten sustain.

There's no denying holo's damage is the direct result of powercreep, and when unfettered by opponents, their damage is ludicrously high. That much is true. Against PvP newbies, it is an utter wrecking ball. But in high level matchups (I'm typically mid-plat, although I'm taking this season off) against opponents who know all the tells or how to CC chain, it's not nearly as potent.

[Ashgar.3024]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Griever.8150 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:I love how many people complain about holosmith's damage and sustain, despite repeated significant nerfs to both of these already. Do you want holosmith to be just as useful as core engineer, scrapper, or revenant? lul, it's supposed to be high damage.

Problem with Holo's damage is the amount of efforts you have to put into it. I play it as my 3rd character to grind the backpack and compared to my Thief (any build, i play all of them) and Rev (Power Shiro, haven't bothered with anything else) its mind boggling to me the amount of pressure i do on my Holo while honestly not being that great on it. It honestly feels like it does what Rev should do, but just better because it can stick into fights while Rev needs to play hit and run because of its kitten sustain.

There's no denying holo's damage is the direct result of powercreep, and when unfettered by opponents, their damage is ludicrously high. That much is true. Against PvP newbies, it is an utter wrecking ball. But in high level matchups (I'm typically mid-plat, although I'm taking this season off) against opponents who know all the tells or how to CC chain, it's not nearly as potent.

Playing around Gold2/3 (second season i play "seriously") I def don't play agains't "pros" but doubt i mostly play agains't new players as well.

The biggest issue i can see with Holo (along Mes) is that its too well rounded, don't get me wrong, its very fun to play because of that but it makes many other builds feel obsolete. At least i know that if all i cared about was rating, its probably what i would focus on. While Thief is very fun, it doesn't have the greatest potential to carry, its good at swaying close games in your favor but it doesn't have the impact Holo does on games going bad, at least in my experience. Outside mobility/roaming potential, Holo does everything Rev can do but better and its only because of these factors i still find Rev more fun but the impact it has on a teamfight is again, not really comparable.

[whoknocks.4935]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:I love how many people complain about holosmith's damage and sustain, despite repeated significant nerfs to both of these already. Do you want holosmith to be just as useful as core engineer, scrapper, or revenant? lul, it's supposed to be high damage.

As for the sustain... seriously, the meta build for holo is almost entirely focused on being a bruiser (bruiser ammie, all utility skills are defensive, traits mostly defensive), because otherwise the spec would fall apart in seconds, thanks to the bizarre way ArenaNet has chosen to nerf it. It can't disengage nearly as easily as a mesmer, thief, or warrior can, so it needs overall higher damage and a bit more sustain.

---

Besides mesmer... some nerfs or changes I'd like to see:

• I still dislike the way scourge allows for braindead play. I've detailed a few fixes, but it seems ArenaNet has also gone the braindead way of nerfing it (cooldown increases), instead of trying to make the spec require more intelligence to play well. Sigh. Change Sand Savant and/or make it so that the scourge themselves are not shades.
• I dislike how easily a skilled warrior can disengage and reset the entire fight. There's a few fixes that would be relatively simple without destroying the whole class, such as reducing the distance traveled by Rush, or removing the evade frames on whirlwind. The class already gets a ton of defensive advantages, it doesn't need the disengage potential too.
• Firebrand boonspam needs to be toned down, still.

I don't have too much besides that. Here are some buffs I think we should see:

• Core necro/reaper could use some buffing (reaper needs a better way to get around, too slow for a melee class).
• Scrapper needs a better way to get around, and some way to deal with the constant corruption from scourges that turn scrapper into a wet noodle.
• Core engineer... needs a whole lot done. It's just too slow, too little damage, too vulnerable, no stability. It's all the risk, and none of the reward.
• All of revenant needs a whole lot of work. It needs more damage and sustain, less cheese abilities. Plus more customizable utilities.
• Core ele/tempest could do with some buffs.

Warrior being the only melee fighter needs disengage, especially from stupid aoe bombs of scourge when you run out of resistance.Warrior kite and disengage ability is nowhere near what a stupid mesmer can have, he literally reset a fight in a matter of seconds.

Able to disengage a fight it's a must every profession should have, but when it's at the level of mesmer or thief is way too much.

Btw holosmith on mid team fight or node sider using demolisher as well and HLA is way tankier than a warrior itself, and holosmith has his disengage ability too.

But warrior is not the only melee fighter... that's demonstrably untrue. Thieves and holos occupy the melee space as well. Thieves obviously have their disengage, but the only real disengage a holo has access to is rocket boots. That's it, and it's not even that good unless specifically traited. It doesn't have evade frames, nor is it as fast as rush is.

The thing is, I often see warriors running two melee sets -- typically axe/shield and greatsword or dagger/shield and greatsword, but they're often still able to disengage like a ranged class can thanks to Greatsword's utility. As I main one of the slower classes in the game (engineer), it's spectacularly obnoxious for a warrior to simply rush off and have all my cripple/immob/CC skills miss because they either move so fast (from Rush, which causes net shot to miss horribly, overcharged shot gets outranged too fast) or they're evading (from whirlwind attack). With the right set of utilities, they also have access to way more CC than engineers. It's like warriors to get to have their cake and eat it too. If rush was 1/2 a second slower at reaching its destination, it would be enough.

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending warrior or something, actually I play warrior but holosmith as well.

Fighting a good holo in wvw, trust me he can kite pretty good and reset as well even without rocket boots.

And Rush is not a spammable instant tp disengage ability, have it's fair cd and it's a "running" mobility ability.

The current holosmith when using hard light arena on a 1vs1 on point with all the boons he generates, he doesn't need that much mobility to stay alive, but using holo#2 can kite, rifle5 (similar to gs5) can kite, using spectrum shield plus perma protection is a -80% damage reduction, if using https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Iron_Blooded even more, and it's tanky probably even more than spellbreaker in that scenario.

I personaly think both spellbreaker and holo are in a really good and fair spot right now.

If you cut off them mobility of gs in warrior, it will become an unplayable profession, as I said every profession should have disengage ability, but only limited and fair (in my opinion mesmer and thief disengage ability are too strong, considering stealth abuse).

I would focus more on balancing the still brainless spam of scourge and the recent brainless clone spam of mesmer as a top priority.

Rarely you see double warrior or double holo, but 90% you see double scourge or mesmer.

[Curennos.9307]

Rifle (and even pistols) are 'pretty balanced'. Fun (to play against) is another matter, but they're otherwise fine. Suggestions that -don't- involve utterly neutering either of them would be lovely (like that ridiculous increase pistol pewpew skill to 10 init that consisted of nothing else. Are you kidding? Please be kidding).

I agree about smol warrior nerfs - they probably shouldn't be able to disengage -quite- so fast c onsidering the rest of their kit. I think the best option would be the Rush distance.

Comb over Scourge f2-f5 skills and pick a couple to change so that they can't be cast while CC'ed (I think just stunned, and dazes do work? Can't remember). Totally rework Sand Savant - I won't claim to know the mind of Anet, but it seeeeems like proper sand shade placement and placing a shade at the appropriate time in the appropriate place is supposed to be a significant part of scourge playstyle, except Savant ruins that. Give them a bit more stab somewhere.

Mesmer needs some toning down in the visual department - clone armies - and the damage attached to several what were once 'utility' skills/clones. The defender, shield 4, disenchanter, and probably another one I'm forgetting all hit ridiculously hard even if the mesmer takes two defense lines + chrono/mirage, not to mention the skills themselves (shield 4 - two blocks, two phantasms, each pulsing prot and slow. Just checked I just checked the tooltips and it's...1800? Almost as strong as a phantasmal zerker. What in the heck! Tone down the damage (1000? 1100? 900?) and remove either the slow or prot. Two blocks, two phantasms that do almost zerker-like tooltip damage, both phantasms pulsing slow AND prot, is utterly ridonks.

Auto crit on photon forge #5 should go. Meh. Maybe increase the CD on 2 and make missing 3 a bit more punishing. They could slash the vuln stacks of Coronoa Burst from 8 to 4 or something. Change Light Density Amp to function based on heat levels. Doing 1, a couple, or a fraction of one of these would be alright for holo, I think, but only as long as other classes get nerfs at the same time. Maaaaybe take another look at the cooldown on hard light arena? CD reduction based on heat level might be appropriate (a very small reduction). Idk, mess around with it a bit.

[apharma.3741]

Just a reminder to everyone, there is already a massive thread about mesmers, your complaints about them should be thrown into the chasm of that thread. This thread is to make sure there’s some feedback about all the other stuff that people feel is too strong, over performing, too low risk for the reward given etc so it isn’t left out when the balance patch comes.

[Sodeni.6041]

Ressing abilities. The are way too strong. Scourge f4+f and insta rezzed. Firebrand signet is also so strong. FB combined with druid and bloodsage necro is just unkillable.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Griever.8150 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Griever.8150 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:I love how many people complain about holosmith's damage and sustain, despite repeated significant nerfs to both of these already. Do you want holosmith to be just as useful as core engineer, scrapper, or revenant? lul, it's supposed to be high damage.

Problem with Holo's damage is the amount of efforts you have to put into it. I play it as my 3rd character to grind the backpack and compared to my Thief (any build, i play all of them) and Rev (Power Shiro, haven't bothered with anything else) its mind boggling to me the amount of pressure i do on my Holo while honestly not being that great on it. It honestly feels like it does what Rev should do, but just better because it can stick into fights while Rev needs to play hit and run because of its kitten sustain.

There's no denying holo's damage is the direct result of powercreep, and when unfettered by opponents, their damage is ludicrously high. That much is true. Against PvP newbies, it is an utter wrecking ball. But in high level matchups (I'm typically mid-plat, although I'm taking this season off) against opponents who know all the tells or how to CC chain, it's not nearly as potent.

Playing around Gold2/3 (second season i play "seriously") I def don't play agains't "pros" but doubt i mostly play agains't new players as well.

The biggest issue i can see with Holo (along Mes) is that its too well rounded, don't get me wrong, its very fun to play because of that but it makes many other builds feel obsolete. At least i know that if all i cared about was rating, its probably what i would focus on. While Thief is very fun, it doesn't have the greatest potential to carry, its good at swaying close games in your favor but it doesn't have the impact Holo does on games going bad, at least in my experience. Outside mobility/roaming potential, Holo does everything Rev can do but better and its only because of these factors i still find Rev more fun but the impact it has on a teamfight is again, not really comparable.

My personal experience is that holo resembles that of a slower D/P thief. If people aren't paying attention to you, or for some reason ignored all your giant flashy moves, you will do a ton of damage. But as soon as the enemy starts focusing you or CC'ing you, your potency is greatly reduced. I wouldn't call it a great all-rounder (it's pretty slow and got no disengage for the most part), but it certainly is potent.

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:I love how many people complain about holosmith's damage and sustain, despite repeated significant nerfs to both of these already. Do you want holosmith to be just as useful as core engineer, scrapper, or revenant? lul, it's supposed to be high damage.

As for the sustain... seriously, the meta build for holo is almost entirely focused on being a bruiser (bruiser ammie, all utility skills are defensive, traits mostly defensive), because otherwise the spec would fall apart in seconds, thanks to the bizarre way ArenaNet has chosen to nerf it. It can't disengage nearly as easily as a mesmer, thief, or warrior can, so it needs overall higher damage and a bit more sustain.

---

Besides mesmer... some nerfs or changes I'd like to see:

• I still dislike the way scourge allows for braindead play. I've detailed a few fixes, but it seems ArenaNet has also gone the braindead way of nerfing it (cooldown increases), instead of trying to make the spec require more intelligence to play well. Sigh. Change Sand Savant and/or make it so that the scourge themselves are not shades.
• I dislike how easily a skilled warrior can disengage and reset the entire fight. There's a few fixes that would be relatively simple without destroying the whole class, such as reducing the distance traveled by Rush, or removing the evade frames on whirlwind. The class already gets a ton of defensive advantages, it doesn't need the disengage potential too.
• Firebrand boonspam needs to be toned down, still.

I don't have too much besides that. Here are some buffs I think we should see:

• Core necro/reaper could use some buffing (reaper needs a better way to get around, too slow for a melee class).
• Scrapper needs a better way to get around, and some way to deal with the constant corruption from scourges that turn scrapper into a wet noodle.
• Core engineer... needs a whole lot done. It's just too slow, too little damage, too vulnerable, no stability. It's all the risk, and none of the reward.
• All of revenant needs a whole lot of work. It needs more damage and sustain, less cheese abilities. Plus more customizable utilities.
• Core ele/tempest could do with some buffs.

Warrior being the only melee fighter needs disengage, especially from stupid aoe bombs of scourge when you run out of resistance.Warrior kite and disengage ability is nowhere near what a stupid mesmer can have, he literally reset a fight in a matter of seconds.

Able to disengage a fight it's a must every profession should have, but when it's at the level of mesmer or thief is way too much.

Btw holosmith on mid team fight or node sider using demolisher as well and HLA is way tankier than a warrior itself, and holosmith has his disengage ability too.

But warrior is not the only melee fighter... that's demonstrably untrue. Thieves and holos occupy the melee space as well. Thieves obviously have their disengage, but the only real disengage a holo has access to is rocket boots. That's it, and it's not even that good unless specifically traited. It doesn't have evade frames, nor is it as fast as rush is.

The thing is, I often see warriors running two melee sets -- typically axe/shield and greatsword or dagger/shield and greatsword, but they're often still able to disengage like a ranged class can thanks to Greatsword's utility. As I main one of the slower classes in the game (engineer), it's spectacularly obnoxious for a warrior to simply rush off and have all my cripple/immob/CC skills miss because they either move so fast (from Rush, which causes net shot to miss horribly, overcharged shot gets outranged too fast) or they're evading (from whirlwind attack). With the right set of utilities, they also have access to way more CC than engineers. It's like warriors to get to have their cake and eat it too. If rush was 1/2 a second slower at reaching its destination, it would be enough.

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending warrior or something, actually I play warrior but holosmith as well.

Fighting a good holo in wvw, trust me he can kite pretty good and reset as well even without rocket boots.

And Rush is not a spammable instant tp disengage ability, have it's fair cd and it's a "running" mobility ability.

The current holosmith when using hard light arena on a 1vs1 on point with all the boons he generates, he doesn't need that much mobility to stay alive, but using holo#2 can kite, rifle5 (similar to gs5) can kite, using spectrum shield plus perma protection is a -80% damage reduction, if using

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Iron_Blooded

even more, and it's tanky probably even more than spellbreaker in that scenario.

I personaly think both spellbreaker and holo are in a really good and fair spot right now.

If you cut off them mobility of gs in warrior, it will become an unplayable profession, as I said every profession should have disengage ability, but only limited and fair (in my opinion mesmer and thief disengage ability are too strong, considering stealth abuse).

I would focus more on balancing the still brainless spam of scourge and the recent brainless clone spam of mesmer as a top priority.

Rarely you see double warrior or double holo, but 90% you see double scourge or mesmer.

WvW is kind of a different beast. Rocket boots makes way more sense there than it does in sPvP, given how large the fighting area is, and the fact you don't generally need to stay in a small capture point most of the time.

That's true about its CD. I'm kind of kvetching because as an engineer main (again, one of the slowest classes alongside necro), I've seen too many warriors just effortlessly glide away from my attacks with their greatsword and there's nothing I can do to slow or stop them without being supremely lucky. I've only played warrior sparingly, but I know its ability to disengage is not as powerful as mesmer or thief.

And I agree for the most part. I don't think spellbreaker or holo need too many adjustments. I'd like to see some improvements on underperforming stuff in holo (like, what's even the point of the condi traits/skills in PvP?), but that's relatively minor to addressing mesmer/scourge.

@"Curennos.9307" said:Auto crit on photon forge #5 should go. Meh. Maybe increase the CD on 2 and make missing 3 a bit more punishing. They could slash the vuln stacks of Coronoa Burst from 8 to 4 or something. Change Light Density Amp to function based on heat levels. Doing 1, a couple, or a fraction of one of these would be alright for holo, I think, but only as long as other classes get nerfs at the same time. Maaaaybe take another look at the cooldown on hard light arena? CD reduction based on heat level might be appropriate (a very small reduction). Idk, mess around with it a bit.

Missing Corona Burst right now is EXTREMELY punishing for holos, as it is our only access to stability. Without it, we get ping-ponged or CC-chained around fights. I'd be ok with lowering its overall output IF you could replace that stability elsewhere. The CC spam is real if you're in melee range, and holo can't disengage nearly as well as most other classes.

The damage output on forge #5 isn't all that impressive, actually. You need pretty high ferocity to make it valuable -- I mean, look at its tooltip damage: 375 (0.96). For comparison, the second attack in the autoattack chain is 391 (1.0). Critting the second autoattack does more damage than #5, with way less heat. The main value of holographic shockwave is its AoE CC.

CD on Holographic Leap needs to be short. Engineer doesn't have any other gap closers. The damage was already nerfed pretty hard, I think it's fair now.

---

I spent time playing the meta build for holo today, and I realize why y'all think the damage on holo is excessive. Because you don't know about Static Discharge, one of the poorest-designed traits in engineer. With the right setup, like this current meta build uses, the damage is incredibly high because of the instant cast toolbelt skills.

There's a lot to be said about static discharge... but I just dislike its design in general. Just read the wiki about it - it's very badly designed. The easiest way to reduce its output would just be giving it a 1s ICD to prevent bursts with it.

[guest.9472]

So when are they removing harrier melee only dodge spam druid? Lmao spam dodges and get healed for it while your pet does all the damage. Best +1, best bunker, best sustain dmg lmao. Mesmer is fine remove druid or atleast prevent rangers from using both gs and s/d and also remove harriers from all druids

[apharma.3741]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Griever.8150 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Griever.8150 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:I love how many people complain about holosmith's damage and sustain, despite repeated significant nerfs to both of these already. Do you want holosmith to be just as useful as core engineer, scrapper, or revenant? lul, it's supposed to be high damage.

Problem with Holo's damage is the amount of efforts you have to put into it. I play it as my 3rd character to grind the backpack and compared to my Thief (any build, i play all of them) and Rev (Power Shiro, haven't bothered with anything else) its mind boggling to me the amount of pressure i do on my Holo while honestly not being that great on it. It honestly feels like it does what Rev should do, but just better because it can stick into fights while Rev needs to play hit and run because of its kitten sustain.

There's no denying holo's damage is the direct result of powercreep, and when unfettered by opponents, their damage is ludicrously high. That much is true. Against PvP newbies, it is an utter wrecking ball. But in high level matchups (I'm typically mid-plat, although I'm taking this season off) against opponents who know all the tells or how to CC chain, it's not nearly as potent.

Playing around Gold2/3 (second season i play "seriously") I def don't play agains't "pros" but doubt i mostly play agains't new players as well.

The biggest issue i can see with Holo (along Mes) is that its too well rounded, don't get me wrong, its very fun to play because of that but it makes many other builds feel obsolete. At least i know that if all i cared about was rating, its probably what i would focus on. While Thief is very fun, it doesn't have the greatest potential to carry, its good at swaying close games in your favor but it doesn't have the impact Holo does on games going bad, at least in my experience. Outside mobility/roaming potential, Holo does everything Rev can do but better and its only because of these factors i still find Rev more fun but the impact it has on a teamfight is again, not really comparable.

My personal experience is that holo resembles that of a slower D/P thief. If people aren't paying attention to you, or for some reason ignored all your giant flashy moves, you will do a ton of damage. But as soon as the enemy starts focusing you or CC'ing you, your potency is greatly reduced. I wouldn't call it a great all-rounder (it's pretty slow and got no disengage for the most part), but it certainly is potent.

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:I love how many people complain about holosmith's damage and sustain, despite repeated significant nerfs to both of these already. Do you want holosmith to be just as useful as core engineer, scrapper, or revenant? lul, it's supposed to be high damage.

As for the sustain... seriously, the meta build for holo is almost entirely focused on being a bruiser (bruiser ammie, all utility skills are defensive, traits mostly defensive), because otherwise the spec would fall apart in seconds, thanks to the bizarre way ArenaNet has chosen to nerf it. It can't disengage nearly as easily as a mesmer, thief, or warrior can, so it needs overall higher damage and a bit more sustain.

---

Besides mesmer... some nerfs or changes I'd like to see:

• I still dislike the way scourge allows for braindead play. I've detailed a few fixes, but it seems ArenaNet has also gone the braindead way of nerfing it (cooldown increases), instead of trying to make the spec require more intelligence to play well. Sigh. Change Sand Savant and/or make it so that the scourge themselves are not shades.
• I dislike how easily a skilled warrior can disengage and reset the entire fight. There's a few fixes that would be relatively simple without destroying the whole class, such as reducing the distance traveled by Rush, or removing the evade frames on whirlwind. The class already gets a ton of defensive advantages, it doesn't need the disengage potential too.
• Firebrand boonspam needs to be toned down, still.

I don't have too much besides that. Here are some buffs I think we should see:

• Core necro/reaper could use some buffing (reaper needs a better way to get around, too slow for a melee class).
• Scrapper needs a better way to get around, and some way to deal with the constant corruption from scourges that turn scrapper into a wet noodle.
• Core engineer... needs a whole lot done. It's just too slow, too little damage, too vulnerable, no stability. It's all the risk, and none of the reward.
• All of revenant needs a whole lot of work. It needs more damage and sustain, less cheese abilities. Plus more customizable utilities.
• Core ele/tempest could do with some buffs.

Warrior being the only melee fighter needs disengage, especially from stupid aoe bombs of scourge when you run out of resistance.Warrior kite and disengage ability is nowhere near what a stupid mesmer can have, he literally reset a fight in a matter of seconds.

Able to disengage a fight it's a must every profession should have, but when it's at the level of mesmer or thief is way too much.

Btw holosmith on mid team fight or node sider using demolisher as well and HLA is way tankier than a warrior itself, and holosmith has his disengage ability too.

But warrior is not the only melee fighter... that's demonstrably untrue. Thieves and holos occupy the melee space as well. Thieves obviously have their disengage, but the only real disengage a holo has access to is rocket boots. That's it, and it's not even that good unless specifically traited. It doesn't have evade frames, nor is it as fast as rush is.

The thing is, I often see warriors running two melee sets -- typically axe/shield and greatsword or dagger/shield and greatsword, but they're often still able to disengage like a ranged class can thanks to Greatsword's utility. As I main one of the slower classes in the game (engineer), it's spectacularly obnoxious for a warrior to simply rush off and have all my cripple/immob/CC skills miss because they either move so fast (from Rush, which causes net shot to miss horribly, overcharged shot gets outranged too fast) or they're evading (from whirlwind attack). With the right set of utilities, they also have access to way more CC than engineers. It's like warriors to get to have their cake and eat it too. If rush was 1/2 a second slower at reaching its destination, it would be enough.

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending warrior or something, actually I play warrior but holosmith as well.

Fighting a good holo in wvw, trust me he can kite pretty good and reset as well even without rocket boots.

And Rush is not a spammable instant tp disengage ability, have it's fair cd and it's a "running" mobility ability.

The current holosmith when using hard light arena on a 1vs1 on point with all the boons he generates, he doesn't need that much mobility to stay alive, but using holo#2 can kite, rifle5 (similar to gs5) can kite, using spectrum shield plus perma protection is a -80% damage reduction, if using

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Iron_Blooded

even more, and it's tanky probably even more than spellbreaker in that scenario.

I personaly think both spellbreaker and holo are in a really good and fair spot right now.

If you cut off them mobility of gs in warrior, it will become an unplayable profession, as I said every profession should have disengage ability, but only limited and fair (in my opinion mesmer and thief disengage ability are too strong, considering stealth abuse).

I would focus more on balancing the still brainless spam of scourge and the recent brainless clone spam of mesmer as a top priority.

Rarely you see double warrior or double holo, but 90% you see double scourge or mesmer.

WvW is kind of a different beast. Rocket boots makes way more sense there than it does in sPvP, given how large the fighting area is, and the fact you don't generally need to stay in a small capture point most of the time.

That's true about its CD. I'm kind of kvetching because as an engineer main (again, one of the slowest classes alongside necro), I've seen too many warriors just effortlessly glide away from my attacks with their greatsword and there's nothing I can do to slow or stop them without being supremely lucky. I've only played warrior sparingly, but I know its ability to disengage is not as powerful as mesmer or thief.

And I agree for the most part. I don't think spellbreaker or holo need too many adjustments. I'd like to see some improvements on underperforming stuff in holo (like, what's even the point of the condi traits/skills in PvP?), but that's relatively minor to addressing mesmer/scourge.

@"Curennos.9307" said:Auto crit on photon forge #5 should go. Meh. Maybe increase the CD on 2 and make missing 3 a bit more punishing. They could slash the vuln stacks of Coronoa Burst from 8 to 4 or something. Change Light Density Amp to function based on heat levels. Doing 1, a couple, or a fraction of one of these would be alright for holo, I think, but only as long as other classes get nerfs at the same time. Maaaaybe take another look at the cooldown on hard light arena? CD reduction based on heat level might be appropriate (a very small reduction). Idk, mess around with it a bit.

Missing Corona Burst right now is EXTREMELY punishing for holos, as it is our

only

access to stability. Without it, we get ping-ponged or CC-chained around fights. I'd be ok with lowering its overall output

IF

you could replace that stability elsewhere. The CC spam is real if you're in melee range, and holo can't disengage nearly as well as most other classes.

The damage output on forge #5 isn't all that impressive, actually. You need pretty high ferocity to make it valuable -- I mean, look at its tooltip damage: 375 (0.96). For comparison, the second attack in the autoattack chain is 391 (1.0). Critting the second autoattack does more damage than #5, with way less heat. The main value of holographic shockwave is its AoE CC.

CD on Holographic Leap needs to be short. Engineer doesn't have any other gap closers. The damage was already nerfed pretty hard, I think it's fair now.

---

I spent time playing the meta build for holo today, and I realize why y'all think the damage on holo is excessive. Because you don't know about

Static Discharge

, one of the poorest-designed traits in engineer. With the right setup, like this current meta build uses, the damage is incredibly high because of the instant cast toolbelt skills.

There's a lot to be said about static discharge... but I just dislike its design in general. Just read the wiki about it - it's very badly designed. The easiest way to reduce its output would just be giving it a 1s ICD to prevent bursts with it.

I’m sorry but no skill that can do as much damage as holo leap should be on a 2s cool down without some kind of ammo mechanic. The photon forge skills are also generally on very low cool downs for their damage, I know they build heat limiting in some way the time spent in holo but every single GM trait allows either more time in holo or rewards you for going ham and overheating, which is good design I might add.

[Gottwald.5410]

chrono and thief condi have to be nerf the rest is balance for me

[Martimus.6027]

@Vague Memory.2817 said:Holosmith - too much sustain, too much damage, and ridiculous amounts of short and long ranged CC.

Spell breaker - As soon as someone says the best way to beat this class is by kiting them/losing LoS, that already says that class is broken. Warr in general is just a ridiculously strong class, perma stun until dead, short CDs, obscene mobility (players should get time CD penalties for using combat skills OoC, or these skills should require a target), damage too high, sustain/regeneration is too high for a class that already has everything, with hardly any downsides. They don't have to spec into Vit or Toughness.

Scourge + Mirage - Both these Elite specs are too silly to elucidate the obvious.

Guard - For the amount of burst these guys have, do they really need 3-4 teleport-to-target skills. Guards also has too much sustain, one of the few classes that can spec high into healing and still do massive damage because they have so many damage negation skills like block (+aegis), invulns, etc.

Deadeye - Why introduce the most annoying spec in the game. A sniper class that has stealth on maps that were not designed to accommodate snipers. An elite spec solely designed by crystal meth.

And which one of these classes do you personally play the majority of your time? I'm guessing you don't play any of those and were simply dying to them in a PVP setting? If I'm wrong, I will own it.

Granted, what I am going to say may not reflect the majority, but I know quite a few PVE players who are really, really really sick of PVP people begging for nerfs that will diminish our effectiveness in PVE.

[Assic.2746]

Firebrand's boon spam. Especially stability spam on tome #1. Combined with Protection, Aegis, Resistance it's just crazy. In my opinion tome #1 skills should not be spammable. FB's capabilities cannot be compared to any other support. I would like to see more damage and less boon spam on FB.

Scourge's shades should either have their radius lowered or cooldown increased. I hate the shade spam and how fast shades recharge. Scourges do not get punished for spamming shades wherever they can.

Chrono & Mirage are gonna get fixed at the same time with changes to chronophantasma. Illusion spam will be obliterated. I would like to see block on chrono's shield have its duration reduced.

I would like to see some changes to Holosmith's sustain. Nothing major.

Cooldown on Full Counter further increased. Spellbreaker has way to much blocks.

[OriOri.8724]

@Assic.2746 said:

• Firebrand's boon spam. Especially stability spam on tome #1. Combined with Protection, Aegis, Resistance it's just crazy. In my opinion tome #1 skills should not be spammable. FB's capabilities cannot be compared to any other support. I would like to see more damage and less boon spam on FB.
• Scourge's shades should either have their radius lowered or cooldown increased. I hate the shade spam and how fast shades recharge. Scourges do not get punished for spamming shades wherever they can.
• Chrono & Mirage are gonna get fixed at the same time with changes to chronophantasma. Illusion spam will be obliterated. I would like to see block on chrono's shield have its duration reduced.
• I would like to see some changes to Holosmith's sustain. Nothing major.
• Cooldown on Full Counter further increased. Spellbreaker has way to much blocks.

???

Mirage will be nerfed by changing a chronomancer trait? Please explain how that affects mirage? Full counter getting another CD increase? Its the AoE, unblockable daze that is the biggest problem with FC, that part needs to be changed, not the CD.

[Vagrant.7206]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Griever.8150 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Griever.8150 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:I love how many people complain about holosmith's damage and sustain, despite repeated significant nerfs to both of these already. Do you want holosmith to be just as useful as core engineer, scrapper, or revenant? lul, it's supposed to be high damage.

Problem with Holo's damage is the amount of efforts you have to put into it. I play it as my 3rd character to grind the backpack and compared to my Thief (any build, i play all of them) and Rev (Power Shiro, haven't bothered with anything else) its mind boggling to me the amount of pressure i do on my Holo while honestly not being that great on it. It honestly feels like it does what Rev should do, but just better because it can stick into fights while Rev needs to play hit and run because of its kitten sustain.

There's no denying holo's damage is the direct result of powercreep, and when unfettered by opponents, their damage is ludicrously high. That much is true. Against PvP newbies, it is an utter wrecking ball. But in high level matchups (I'm typically mid-plat, although I'm taking this season off) against opponents who know all the tells or how to CC chain, it's not nearly as potent.

Playing around Gold2/3 (second season i play "seriously") I def don't play agains't "pros" but doubt i mostly play agains't new players as well.

The biggest issue i can see with Holo (along Mes) is that its too well rounded, don't get me wrong, its very fun to play because of that but it makes many other builds feel obsolete. At least i know that if all i cared about was rating, its probably what i would focus on. While Thief is very fun, it doesn't have the greatest potential to carry, its good at swaying close games in your favor but it doesn't have the impact Holo does on games going bad, at least in my experience. Outside mobility/roaming potential, Holo does everything Rev can do but better and its only because of these factors i still find Rev more fun but the impact it has on a teamfight is again, not really comparable.

My personal experience is that holo resembles that of a slower D/P thief. If people aren't paying attention to you, or for some reason ignored all your giant flashy moves, you will do a ton of damage. But as soon as the enemy starts focusing you or CC'ing you, your potency is greatly reduced. I wouldn't call it a great all-rounder (it's pretty slow and got no disengage for the most part), but it certainly is potent.

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:I love how many people complain about holosmith's damage and sustain, despite repeated significant nerfs to both of these already. Do you want holosmith to be just as useful as core engineer, scrapper, or revenant? lul, it's supposed to be high damage.

As for the sustain... seriously, the meta build for holo is almost entirely focused on being a bruiser (bruiser ammie, all utility skills are defensive, traits mostly defensive), because otherwise the spec would fall apart in seconds, thanks to the bizarre way ArenaNet has chosen to nerf it. It can't disengage nearly as easily as a mesmer, thief, or warrior can, so it needs overall higher damage and a bit more sustain.

---

Besides mesmer... some nerfs or changes I'd like to see:

• I still dislike the way scourge allows for braindead play. I've detailed a few fixes, but it seems ArenaNet has also gone the braindead way of nerfing it (cooldown increases), instead of trying to make the spec require more intelligence to play well. Sigh. Change Sand Savant and/or make it so that the scourge themselves are not shades.
• I dislike how easily a skilled warrior can disengage and reset the entire fight. There's a few fixes that would be relatively simple without destroying the whole class, such as reducing the distance traveled by Rush, or removing the evade frames on whirlwind. The class already gets a ton of defensive advantages, it doesn't need the disengage potential too.
• Firebrand boonspam needs to be toned down, still.

I don't have too much besides that. Here are some buffs I think we should see:

• Core necro/reaper could use some buffing (reaper needs a better way to get around, too slow for a melee class).
• Scrapper needs a better way to get around, and some way to deal with the constant corruption from scourges that turn scrapper into a wet noodle.
• Core engineer... needs a whole lot done. It's just too slow, too little damage, too vulnerable, no stability. It's all the risk, and none of the reward.
• All of revenant needs a whole lot of work. It needs more damage and sustain, less cheese abilities. Plus more customizable utilities.
• Core ele/tempest could do with some buffs.

Warrior being the only melee fighter needs disengage, especially from stupid aoe bombs of scourge when you run out of resistance.Warrior kite and disengage ability is nowhere near what a stupid mesmer can have, he literally reset a fight in a matter of seconds.

Able to disengage a fight it's a must every profession should have, but when it's at the level of mesmer or thief is way too much.

Btw holosmith on mid team fight or node sider using demolisher as well and HLA is way tankier than a warrior itself, and holosmith has his disengage ability too.

But warrior is not the only melee fighter... that's demonstrably untrue. Thieves and holos occupy the melee space as well. Thieves obviously have their disengage, but the only real disengage a holo has access to is rocket boots. That's it, and it's not even that good unless specifically traited. It doesn't have evade frames, nor is it as fast as rush is.

The thing is, I often see warriors running two melee sets -- typically axe/shield and greatsword or dagger/shield and greatsword, but they're often still able to disengage like a ranged class can thanks to Greatsword's utility. As I main one of the slower classes in the game (engineer), it's spectacularly obnoxious for a warrior to simply rush off and have all my cripple/immob/CC skills miss because they either move so fast (from Rush, which causes net shot to miss horribly, overcharged shot gets outranged too fast) or they're evading (from whirlwind attack). With the right set of utilities, they also have access to way more CC than engineers. It's like warriors to get to have their cake and eat it too. If rush was 1/2 a second slower at reaching its destination, it would be enough.

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending warrior or something, actually I play warrior but holosmith as well.

Fighting a good holo in wvw, trust me he can kite pretty good and reset as well even without rocket boots.

And Rush is not a spammable instant tp disengage ability, have it's fair cd and it's a "running" mobility ability.

The current holosmith when using hard light arena on a 1vs1 on point with all the boons he generates, he doesn't need that much mobility to stay alive, but using holo#2 can kite, rifle5 (similar to gs5) can kite, using spectrum shield plus perma protection is a -80% damage reduction, if using

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Iron_Blooded

even more, and it's tanky probably even more than spellbreaker in that scenario.

I personaly think both spellbreaker and holo are in a really good and fair spot right now.

If you cut off them mobility of gs in warrior, it will become an unplayable profession, as I said every profession should have disengage ability, but only limited and fair (in my opinion mesmer and thief disengage ability are too strong, considering stealth abuse).

I would focus more on balancing the still brainless spam of scourge and the recent brainless clone spam of mesmer as a top priority.

Rarely you see double warrior or double holo, but 90% you see double scourge or mesmer.

WvW is kind of a different beast. Rocket boots makes way more sense there than it does in sPvP, given how large the fighting area is, and the fact you don't generally need to stay in a small capture point most of the time.

That's true about its CD. I'm kind of kvetching because as an engineer main (again, one of the slowest classes alongside necro), I've seen too many warriors just effortlessly glide away from my attacks with their greatsword and there's nothing I can do to slow or stop them without being supremely lucky. I've only played warrior sparingly, but I know its ability to disengage is not as powerful as mesmer or thief.

And I agree for the most part. I don't think spellbreaker or holo need too many adjustments. I'd like to see some improvements on underperforming stuff in holo (like, what's even the point of the condi traits/skills in PvP?), but that's relatively minor to addressing mesmer/scourge.

@"Curennos.9307" said:Auto crit on photon forge #5 should go. Meh. Maybe increase the CD on 2 and make missing 3 a bit more punishing. They could slash the vuln stacks of Coronoa Burst from 8 to 4 or something. Change Light Density Amp to function based on heat levels. Doing 1, a couple, or a fraction of one of these would be alright for holo, I think, but only as long as other classes get nerfs at the same time. Maaaaybe take another look at the cooldown on hard light arena? CD reduction based on heat level might be appropriate (a very small reduction). Idk, mess around with it a bit.

Missing Corona Burst right now is EXTREMELY punishing for holos, as it is our

only

access to stability. Without it, we get ping-ponged or CC-chained around fights. I'd be ok with lowering its overall output

IF

you could replace that stability elsewhere. The CC spam is real if you're in melee range, and holo can't disengage nearly as well as most other classes.

The damage output on forge #5 isn't all that impressive, actually. You need pretty high ferocity to make it valuable -- I mean, look at its tooltip damage: 375 (0.96). For comparison, the second attack in the autoattack chain is 391 (1.0). Critting the second autoattack does more damage than #5, with way less heat. The main value of holographic shockwave is its AoE CC.

CD on Holographic Leap needs to be short. Engineer doesn't have any other gap closers. The damage was already nerfed pretty hard, I think it's fair now.

---

I spent time playing the meta build for holo today, and I realize why y'all think the damage on holo is excessive. Because you don't know about

Static Discharge

, one of the poorest-designed traits in engineer. With the right setup, like this current meta build uses, the damage is incredibly high because of the instant cast toolbelt skills.

There's a lot to be said about static discharge... but I just dislike its design in general. Just read the wiki about it - it's very badly designed. The easiest way to reduce its output would just be giving it a 1s ICD to prevent bursts with it.

I’m sorry but no skill that can do as much damage as holo leap should be on a 2s cool down without some kind of ammo mechanic. The photon forge skills are also generally on very low cool downs for their damage, I know they build heat limiting in some way the time spent in holo but every single GM trait allows either more time in holo or rewards you for going ham and overheating, which is good design I might add.

Wait, one of the most obviously telegraphed skills in the game that has already had its damage nerfed pretty significantly (and is only somewhat better than the autoattack) and is the only gap closer holosmith actually has is a problem for you? Ok then.

Btw, my point about Holo being a less mobile but more durable D/P thief still stands:

• Holo Leap: 586 (1.5)
• Shadow Shot: 481 (1.3125)

One of these is an elite spec. The other is core. :) One can use these at any time, the other has to wait on an obligatory cooldown.

[zoopop.5630]

Anything that resolves with spamming needs to get nerf to the ground..... I just started spamming rank games with P/P thief and apparently it carries A LOT harder then what I could do as a bunker holo holding 1vs2 at far, I could ONLY imagine what a Bunker spam chrono build would do for me if i decided to pick it up.

What Needs to be Nerf/Tweaked a bit:

Warrior : Have way to much "defense" while trying to play aggressively at the same time, Either nerfing endure pain some more or just remove it completely.

Mesmer : pretty obv what needs to be done with this class not going to even bother explaining the amount of shit it needs gutted.

Holo : Needs to go back into being fully cannon i hate the idea of being "bunker" it kinda kills the idea of playing scrapper imo why do we need 2 bunker specs?

Weaver : The amount of evade they can do is dumb, i understand they aren't "OP" but they aren't weak or shit tier either imo the evade abilities need a slight longer cd.

Deadeye : P/P and Rifle needs a major nerf in dps mainly p/p for obv reasons.

[kipthelip.5802]

The sustain Spell Breakers have is out of whack with the damage they can output. Its not fun getting repeatedly hit in the 4-6 k range from a class with high hit points, toughness and lots of sustain traits and abilities. This is on a build with fairly high toughness myself getting hit like that.

[praqtos.9035]

dont get all these ppl with holo nerfs, it honestly feel well rounded imo. sure we hurt like hell but i feel like u should kite those flashy attacks. u dont stand around in scourges circles either so why get close to a holo when he's in holomode. besides, hes supposed to hurt, be smart and play around it, all skills have obvious tells so yea .__.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Vague Memory.2817 said:Holosmith - too much sustain, too much damage, and ridiculous amounts of short and long ranged CC.

Spell breaker - As soon as someone says the best way to beat this class is by kiting them/losing LoS, that already says that class is broken. Warr in general is just a ridiculously strong class, perma stun until dead, short CDs, obscene mobility (players should get time CD penalties for using combat skills OoC, or these skills should require a target), damage too high, sustain/regeneration is too high for a class that already has everything, with hardly any downsides. They don't have to spec into Vit or Toughness.

Scourge + Mirage - Both these Elite specs are too silly to elucidate the obvious.

Guard - For the amount of burst these guys have, do they really need 3-4 teleport-to-target skills. Guards also has too much sustain, one of the few classes that can spec high into healing and still do massive damage because they have so many damage negation skills like block (+aegis), invulns, etc.

Deadeye - Why introduce the most annoying spec in the game. A sniper class that has stealth on maps that were not designed to accommodate snipers. An elite spec solely designed by crystal meth.

Dont forget. Soulbeast, Weaver, and ~~ power rev ~~ reaperare lurking under the waters for op if all of those come to pass.

[Kageseigi.2150]

@Hoodie.1045 said:Same thing goes for P/P thieves, I'd like to have the Pistol skill 3 Unload nerfed by increasing the initiative cost from 5 to 10. That may seem harsh, but with the high damage especially when they use Deadeye simply rewards bad thieves just by pressing one button. By increasing the initiative cost, it will punish the thieves that spam 3 all day and get rid of the annoyance that comes with both Deadeye and P/P.

Come on, this is getting ridiculous.

As you said yourself, you are wanting to punish Thief players, but you're using the guise that they are bad players and need to learn how to play properly.

Before you make such claims, please try to understand why Thieves play this way.

Pistols have become popular because the Dagger and Sword have been weakened to the point where Pistols make the most sense in a lot of situations.

Pistols offer range to stay out of AoE which the Thief cannot survive, so melee is too risky. Pistols offer high single-target burst damage... what a Thief is designed for.

I'm a Dagger Thief. Played it for years along with Sword. I know how to play Thief properly. But against most opponents, Pistols allow me to perform my Thief duties faster and easier.

Yes, Unload is spammed. Do you know why? Because it's the only skill worth using for a power Thief. The occasional Headshot is nice, but the other skills are extremely niche for P/P. If you nerf Unload, P/P goes back into obscurity.

Do I want to play Pistols? No, I'm a Dagger Thief. But Dagger is severely lacking the lethality that it was once known for.

The Thief has been nerfed time and time again. Don't nerf Core Thief more because elites may be out of balance.

I'm all for transferring the lethality of Pistols to the Dagger and Sword (melee should hit harder than ranged), but don't just take away the power of Pistols so Dagger and Sword are better by default. Either raise the Dagger and Sword up to match Pistols or transfer the power to them.

Is Unload annoying? Yes. I'm a non-Stealth Thief. I'm one of the most vulnerable players to it. But I'd rather go against another P/P Thief than many other professions and builds out there.

Why not just go the extra step and delete the Thief as a whole? That would also get rid of the annoyances that come with Deadeye and P/P... and Daredevil and Dagger and Sword and perma-Stealth and perma-evade (except for Mesmers).

[jsp.6912]

sb: nerf fullcounterHolo: nerf cd f5thief: S/D, nerf damage and condi thief need to be deletefb: nerf boon that givesnecro: maybe nerf blood magic idkrev: class okranger: class ok

[Martimus.6027]

"What I want nerfed:

Every class I have lost to in any PVP matchup" (as if there isn't a rock/paper/scissors theme in almost every single game offering PVP)

Basically everything here. All you have to do to see who plays what class as their mains is look and see what class/spec on the list they don't want/list to be nerfed.These "nerf X spec/class because Y" threads are entirely too populous on this forum.