Trident: the perfect Revenant Weapon mechanic?

[Justine.6351]

@narcx.3570 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@narcx.3570 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@narcx.3570 said:I like the effort, but it even finds a way to underperform spear as a condi weapon,

and the power damage is just terrible (although I think trident 5 may be massively bugged since it does NOT do the type of damage that the scaling says it should.)

Also, I say effort, but I mean attention... Because it's a cool concept to incorporate the legends, but not a ton of deep thought really went into it--all of the skills functionally do the exact same thing in a different way, which is just boring. It's like, push a button, get your torment/weakness/vulnerability, do some damage, spend some energy, now it's up to you to figure out which (if any) of those buttons were actually worth the energy cost vs just aa'ing and spinning your new underwater hammers/impossible oddsifying stuff up/embracing all of that darkness since none of them really accomplished anything that your basic aa didn't already do. Well, OK, one of them has a knock back, but knocking an enemy AWAY from you is so counter productive to everything you try to accomplish as a revenant that it makes that ability uncastable in 99.9999% of situations that you find yourself in.

I wish you would stop spreading this lie.

Tested on Vet Shark on Borderlands with 100% crit chance,t5 is doing ~16k damages2 is doing ~10k damage

t5 is listing for me at 5192 damage in tooltips2 is listing for me at 3224 damage in the tooltip

How is 16k good for an ability that costs 20 energy and has a 20 second cooldown when you're then stuck on Trident for 10 seconds and out of energy? Spear 2 does over twice as much damage (using your numbers) per energy/cooldown and leaves you with a stronger AA and more energy for upkeep skills... It would never be a dps increase to swap away from spear to incorporate trident 5, since in the 10 seconds you're now on trident for that 16k, you could have cast spear 2 twice.

Also, the ability claims to do: "Damage (22x): 1,782 (4.84)."

4.84 scaling should be freaking HUGE in full zerker. It does not feel huge and does not feel like it justifies the energy cost/loss of potential dps by swapping out of spear in actual practice?If it is working as intended, then it probably has some meteor-shower-like mechanic working where not all bolts can strike the same target or they start suffering from diminished returns or something...

How is 20e "out of energy"?How are you "stuck" in trident for 10 seconds when spear doesn't have any defensive skills either? I think you are going to find many players camping trident rather than spear because range is defensive vs melee underwater. Riposting Shadows + Trident is going to be a thing and it will cause tears.

For real? 16k is just zerk with 4 stacks of might. No bloodlust, no power food, no 25 might, no +20% trait (full hp vet shark). If it's so bad then please just use double spear. And don't complain when you get oneshot by trident 5 in WvW. Yes it can happen....

You can complain about the 20e/ 20 sec recharge but a skill capable of one-shotting people kind of needs a price on it. On average trident energy cost and cool down falls in line with sets like s/s, staff and even spear.

If you're talking WvW, trident 5 i even more useless... Who is going to sit there and eat 2 whole seconds of you immobility channeling a skill with that blatant of an animation when it's so easy to interrupt or just move out of it's tiny range? Not to mention the fact that 99% of people you encounter underwater just try to run away at first sight or range kite you anyways... The only people who are even going to try to fight you in melee range are other Revs and spellbreakers, and a breaker will get rock hard at the opportunity to full counter that channel and then destroy you with spear 5/2. Anyone who is getting "one shot" by Trident 5 is A) in a complete glass cannon build and B ) afk... Either that or they are SO BAD at the game that you'd have killed them no matter what you were doing.

You're right though, I'm sure people will be perfectly happy camping trident and poking people from 1200 all day long... Just like they do with their hammers from the safety of a zerg. But just because some people are content auto attacking from 1200, unable to use the rest of their skills, doesn't mean that the weapon is good or effective.

You decided trident wasn't any good the moment you read the patch notes saying spear 2 had a cooldown. There is no point trying to convince you otherwise unless you would like to do some underwater duels.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@"Buran.3796" said:Another five skills spent without giving any sort of defense/sustain or mobility, now twenty in a row since the HoT release, with a weapon which also does less damage than the one which replaces (the spear). Is a spear with less burst, slower casting times and lower damage over time. Is the "perfect" weapon for the Renegade , to remain kings of the sub-par.

The mechanic of the weapon is nice though and each weapon could have its own behaviour depending on legend. Would give atleast some diversity and more usability for weapons because all could be either condi, power or supportish.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@"ReaverKane.7598" said:Also you're completely missing the point!!! The numbers don't matter as much as how the weapon functions mechanically...If Sword worked like this, it could sacrifice some of the on-hit damage for bleeds, and be useful for Malix, or it could give boons, or heals.Staff could be better as a dps weapon if it would do condis, or apply vuln instead of healing...That's what's the matter here.

No, the numbers are INCREDIBLY important. If I'm not doing enough damage or utility with a weapon, it's largely useless. Period. It can feel amazing, but if it hits like a wet noodle or is really hard to use (i.e. Shortbow) it doesn't matter.

Let's take your example of sword and analyze:So it would reduce sword damage to make way for new condis based on legend, Mallyx would get bleed or something. Theoretically it would be the same damage overall just adjusted based on legend based on the condi. Sounds good in theory, but in actuality....what condi would you give Shiro? Jalis? according to Trident they get Vulnerability and Weakness. Neither of these condis add damage and so now you have a nerfed sword that no longer does good power damage!

You can say that you can just add the damage back in for Shiro (which could be relatively complicated and would likely end up as a net nerf i.e. Impossible Odds), but what if I want that damage in Glint? "Oh sorry, Glint is a defensive boon legend so we can't actually have it do damage, but here's some protection! Or maybe here have this burn even though burn is completely useless for that Marauder gear you have on!" So now you're stuck as a power rev doing full power damage ONLY in Shiro. That's ridiculous.

Legends should be able to accommodate a variety of playstyles while still maintaining their theme. Changes like this could potentially make weapons and legends LESS flexible, not more.

Generally speaking Legends are able to work in various builds and playstyles (except Ventari who only works well in a heal build). This is evidenced by the fact that Power Rev can be run with Shiro/Glint/Jalis and to some extent Mallyx and can even be run with Renegade as a traitline. Some of those variations are obviously superior to each other, but overall they're not completely limited to one thing. Likewise Condi Rev can be run with Mallyx/Shiro/Glint or Jalis. Kalla additionally works with both power or condi in PvE, but generally sucks in WvW/PvP so that's a whole other discussion.

I really like Trident from my very limited use of it so far, but I don't love that I feel like I have to be in Mallyx to do my max damage with it.

It's an interesting concept, but flat damage increases just from being in a legend (i.e. camping trident in mallyx because it does more damage even with berserker gear) should be avoided so that we don't pigeonhole legends into being even more necessary than they already are for certain things.

This is how I feel about it. Well said.

Also perhaps an unpopular opinion but I dislike the animation on the projectiles.

[Buran.3796]

This is from a month ago, a random submarine fight while roaming in WvW. At that time IO was already nerfed (along with the vulnerability procs which triggered fury and might), but Rev's underwater capabilities remained close to the HoT release. Most of classes and builds were beatable (including condi Necros and near-inmortal Druids and Eles) due the spear high sustained damage and burst potential. R.I.P. spear and underwater Revenant, you won't be forgotten!

[BadSanta.6527]

I love it but in order to make every wellness like this I think revenet should not have weapon swap

[Buran.3796]

@BadSanta.6527 said:I love it but in order to make every wellness like this I think revenet should not have weapon swap

That would make most of the weapons useless for combat vs other players, due most of them lack any defense and the class doesn't let you to select utilities to cover the weakness in your weapon skills (as other classes do).

Why are that much people (which doesn't play Rev) obsessed into turning the Rev in a pure PvE boon bot (which isn't as good as other boon bots, anyway).

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Buran.3796 said:

@BadSanta.6527 said:I love it but in order to make every wellness like this I think revenet should not have weapon swap

That would make most of the weapons useless for combat vs other players, due most of them lack any defense and the class doesn't let you to select utilities to cover the weakness in your weapon skills (as other classes do).

Why are that much people (which doesn't play Rev) obsessed into turning the Rev in a pure PvE boon bot (which isn't as good as other boon bots, anyway).

This could be quite (easily???) solved by having it so that the Legends change aspects of some skills as well. Adding blinds, blocks or what ever to some skills. Some weapons i dont think would need it Off hand Sword has blocks, Staff has blinds, projection destruction, Knockbacks and such. Hammer has projectile Destruction, i think the weapons COULD work with no weapon swap. Would slight changes be needed? yes. But they could be done and if they actually added a more thought out weapon aspect change based on Legend could work.

[BadSanta.6527]

@Buran.3796 said:

@BadSanta.6527 said:I love it but in order to make every wellness like this I think revenet should not have weapon swap

That would make most of the weapons useless for combat vs other players, due most of them lack any defense and the class doesn't let you to select utilities to cover the weakness in your weapon skills (as other classes do).

Why are that much people (which doesn't play Rev) obsessed into turning the Rev in a pure PvE boon bot (which isn't as good as other boon bots, anyway).

@Buran.3796 said:

@BadSanta.6527 said:I love it but in order to make every wellness like this I think revenet should not have weapon swap

That would make most of the weapons useless for combat vs other players, due most of them lack any defense and the class doesn't let you to select utilities to cover the weakness in your weapon skills (as other classes do).

Why are that much people (which doesn't play Rev) obsessed into turning the Rev in a pure PvE boon bot (which isn't as good as other boon bots, anyway).

I do play as rev but not main , ithink that class should copy the tridebt mechanic for the rest of the weapons - just that have different opinion then you dosent mean I hate rev. Back to the topic , ithink legends should be like elementalist elements swap with no weapon swap

[Buran.3796]

@BadSanta.6527 said:

I do play as rev but not main , ithink that class should copy the tridebt mechanic for the rest of the weapons - just that have different opinion then you dosent mean I hate rev. Back to the topic , ithink legends should be like elementalist elements swap with no weapon swap

Once you select your weapon loadout the Elementalist has 20 fixed skills plus 5 selectable skills; a non swappable weapon design in Rev would give us 20 fixed skills, making us a less flexible clone of a class which already exist. Why not kits as the Engineer or tomes as the Guardian instead?

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Buran.3796 said:Once you select your weapon loadout the Elementalist has 20 fixed skills plus 5 selectable skills; a non swappable weapon design in Rev would give us 20 fixed skills, making us a less flexible clone of a class which already exist. Why not kits as the Engineer or tomes as the Guardian instead?

You fail to understand. Quantity isn't as good as Quality. Yes Ele has a TON of skills. The problem is most of them aren't that great or useful. There for the sake of being there. Underpowered with long cool downs. I would take Revenent losing weapon swap and the legends improving/changing the weapon skills than what we have at the moment.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Buran.3796 said:Once you select your weapon loadout the Elementalist has 20 fixed skills plus 5 selectable skills; a non swappable weapon design in Rev would give us 20 fixed skills, making us a less flexible clone of a class which already exist. Why not kits as the Engineer or tomes as the Guardian instead?

You fail to understand. Quantity isn't as good as Quality. Yes Ele has a TON of skills. The problem is most of them aren't that great or useful. There for the sake of being there. Underpowered with long cool downs. I would take Revenent losing weapon swap and the legends improving/changing the weapon skills than what we have at the moment.

I think if that were to happen, they would have to do one or more of the following:-Significantly change the mechanics and functionality of the weapons for each legend, effectively creating new skills for each of them rather than just differing effects.-Give us 3-4 active legends rather than 2.-Create more legend utility skills to allow for more diversity to make up for where the weapons lack.-Reduce the cooldowns on most weapon skills.

Simply adding minor effects to each weapon skill based on the legend would not be enough because they would still be the same skills at their core. It would not make up for what would be lost by only having one weapon set.

Just my two cents.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

I think if that were to happen, they would have to do one or more of the following:-Significantly change the mechanics and functionality of the weapons for each legend, effectively creating new skills for each of them rather than just differing effects.-Give us 3-4 active legends rather than 2.-Create more legend utility skills to allow for more diversity to make up for where the weapons lack.-Reduce the cooldowns on most weapon skills.

Simply adding minor effects to each weapon skill based on the legend would not be enough because they would still be the same skills at their core. It would not make up for what would be lost by only having one weapon set.

Just my two cents.

Why would they need to do pretty much any of that? The mechanics of the weapons work fine as they are. I wouldn't even say they would need to be changed. You would have plenty of options if you wanted a MH and OF then you have damage, mobility, conditions, CC. If you had a 2Hander, you would have a VERY powerful hitting ranged weapon that can still do great damage in Melee with projectile destruction, leap and you also have a Melee weapon with CC, Healing, condition removal. I would say Staff i think would need tweaks to its healing because it does kinda suck but that could be improved with the buffs that Legends grant weapons. So they could have Ventari granting healing for attacking, they could have Shiro granting less healing but doing life leeching attacks thus more DPS and so on.

No thanks to 3 or 4 legends, we dont need ANOTHER ele class just reversed. I would agree with having more Utility skills for each legend as well though, has been wanted and in my opinion needed since release.

What would you really be missing? Unless you are taking Hammer and something else. If you dont take Hammer (or short bow) then you are 100% melee anyway. The weapon skills would still be the same. So you would still have the option for CC, Blocks, Healing and all of that taking a MH and an OH. You would surely be BETTER off as you would be able to get Conditions for example when using other weapons than Mace and Axe. So you could still apply condition pressure when not running Mace and Axe for example.

[Buran.3796]

@"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:You fail to understand. Quantity isn't as good as Quality. Yes Ele has a TON of skills. The problem is most of them aren't that great or useful. There for the sake of being there. Underpowered with long cool downs. I would take Revenent losing weapon swap and the legends improving/changing the weapon skills than what we have at the moment.

Check good ele players as Cellofrag and then tell me how "unuseful" their skills are. Currently condition Rev (core/Herald/Renegade) is not viable in duels or roaming (if decent players of the same level are fighting) because duelling classes can disengage and put pressure at range without the Rev being able to counterstrike (despite we can currently wield two weapon sets and theoretycaly we have up to two ranged weapons to use (none of them work against humans if condi stats are used).

What is propossed (changing qualities of the weapon skills based in each legend) was only done with the Weaver, which got a massive amount of skills. I don't see ANet doing again the effort (remember: they released the class with only one underwater weapon and 10 utility skills). The only skills which "change" based on the active legend are the ones from the trident and the traits Spirit Boon and Song of the Mist and the only changes that those (and the trident skills) do make is to add a boon or a debuff on proc when the skill is used. That's minimal , is no the same level of work which was put in the design of Ele's attunement with his weapons. You think that they will remake the 7 ground skills x4 legends (assuming that some of the current skills would remain as their are in at least one legend). 28 new skills is just too much for a class which can't use Unrelenting Assault in PvE without the fear of becoming trapped inside a wall.

No, if they go the way they designed the trident they would nerf every skill we currently have in exchange of nothing, and would be a net lose in power and survability as happened with this spear/trident fiasco. I don't salute the new weapon, because the last Monday underwater Revenant was significatively stronger that now. "But the trident is fun"... you known what's fun? To win. Form should follow function; a "fun skill" that underperforms remains unused. That's why you barely find Revs which crafted a legendary shortbow whereas there's tons of Mesmers wielding legendary shields.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@"Buran.3796" said:Check good ele players as Cellofrag and then tell me how "unuseful" their skills are. Currently condition Rev (core/Herald/Renegade) is not viable in duels or roaming (if decent players of the same level are fighting) because duelling classes can disengage and put pressure at range without the Rev being able to counterstrike (despite we can currently wield two weapon sets and theoretycaly we have up to two ranged weapons to use (none of them work against humans if condi stats are used).

Ele is the first class that i made during the very first beta before release. I know about the class. Many of the skills are underpowered with longer cool down downs DUE to how many skills there are. Take staff for example. Meteor Shower. That gets nerfed and look at the DPS loss. You missed the part where i said MOST of the skills arent as good, which is correct there are too many filler skills that you could totally ignore and still do well as an Ele without needing to touch. This goes for most of the weapons and elements. They all have skills that you dont need to use.

Herald still does well. Renegade was dead before release and base is okay, just okay. The reason for the most part they arent really that good for roaming, they SUCK against conditions and conditions are EVERYWHERE when you roam. Their mobility is kinda meh as well. Sustain CAN be good but takes much more than other classes to get decent sustain. That is where Herald comes in, It's just got more sustain built in via traits, Glint, Shield and such.

@"Buran.3796" said:What is propossed (changing qualities of the weapon skills based in each legend) was only done with the Weaver, which got a massive amount of skills. I don't see ANet doing again the effort (remember: they released the class with only one underwater weapon and 10 utility skills). The only skills which "change" based on the active legend are the ones from the trident and the traits Spirit Boon and Song of the Mist and the only changes that those (and the trident skills) do make is to add a boon or a debuff on proc when the skill is used. That's minimal , is no the same level of work which was put in the design of Ele's attunement with his weapons. You think that they will remake the 7 ground skills x4 legends (assuming that some of the current skills would remain as their are in at least one legend). 28 new skills is just too much for a class which can't use Unrelenting Assault in PvE without the fear of becoming trapped inside a wall.

No it wasn't Weaver gets totally new skills depending on the element at use, something like this WON'T happen for Revenant. Not a chance. That would be too much work for too little pay off for Anet to really bother doing. They could do something LIKE it for Elite specs, because well they need to sell those expansions. The best bet that Revenant could get is having the skills be the same, same visuals and such but different Legends affect them in slightly different ways - Conditions from Mal, Life Leach from Shiro and such. We wont get WHOLE new weapon skills based on the Legend.

Yeah its not the same as what Ele has, the difference being, Ele hasnt had that change come during the game. That is how it was built. From the start. They wont do a Revenant refresh that does anything like that. Not a chance.

@"Buran.3796" said:No, if they go the way they designed the trident they would nerf every skill we currently have in exchange of nothing, and would be a net lose in power and survability as happened with this spear/trident fiasco. I don't salute the new weapon, because the last Monday underwater Revenant was significatively stronger that now. "But the trident is fun"... you known what's fun? To win. Form should follow function; a "fun skill" that underperforms remains unused. That's why you barely find Revs which crafted a legendary shortbow whereas there's tons of Mesmers wielding legendary shields.

In exchange of nothing? The nerf would be VERY debatable. Depending on how deep they could go with how Legends affect the weapon skills. It wouldn't be a NERF it would be a buff. You want a Condition build but dont want to rely 100% on Mace and Axe? Well now you could equip say the Staff and get it hitting and proccing conditions. You could get the swords proccing conditions, the Hammer proccing Conditions. You like the Mace and Axe but want a defensive build? Then equip Ventari and boom. You get healing effects on your attacks and abilities. Shiro would grant Life Leach, so little less healing but proccing Life Leach and damage to enemies.

You have proof of Rev being stronger before? I have seen videos of the new Trident melting people. It seems very odd that so many people are saying that the pre-change Spear was stronger others saying that Trident is stronger. Too be fair, i dont really care as i find underwater combat VERY tedious, boring and just plain lazy designed and then forgotten.