Rant toward pug players on VG.

[Astralporing.1957]

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:It depends. Overheal put preasure on tank and healers. Greens put preasure on players responsible for greens. If you play dps its more safe to do greens since you dont know your healers/tank skill but you know your own. On the other hand if you play tank and can distort every/most of the greens, time your well of eternity to heal after explosion and not get ported then overheal is better since you dont need to count on 4 green players.

In overheal you need to depend on your players more, not less. You have to trust your tank, your healers, but you also have to trust your dps players - to not get teleported for example. Or to not stay behind the stack once the tank starts leading VG around.

Yes, overhealing is easier and more efficient in more experienced and better organized groups. If you have any reason to doubt quality of your team however, greens are safer.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:

It is very easy

and you don't need any single aegis because it won't help you against the damage impact from the green explosion. All you need is one or two competent healers that know when to burst heal, a competent tank (you need him with the other tactic as well) and players not getting ported by blues which shouldn't happen if they are in max melee range, watch out and have the ingame sound running if it's not manageable for them otherwise (you can hear the blue ports "building up").The nerf to druid didn't change anything for this tactic unless your druids weren't already really skilled before.

You say it is very easy but then you say that you need competent this and that with tank, druid and players staying on max melee range and whatever else. So easy i guess.Its so easy to save the world from North Korea too. Even Trump did it. :)

What you are aiming for are braindead encounters. Raids are the endgame in GW2 PvE and the most challenging content in this game. So yeah, there is no contradiction in my post since we are talking about people that should be experienced and not beginners. If you have killed VG more than 10-20 times you should know what's going on otherwise you find yourself in a sad state in terms of skill!In addition, a competent healer means that this player isn't just using staff 1 for pew pew and maybe using CA4 because he heard that it can heal. Mentioning the tank is negligible because it doesn't matter what tactic you are using he has to do his job otherwise both tactics fail. Last but not least the max melee thing is a help. I know most people don't know how to handle that or what it even means but then I expect them to pay more attention to walk out of the blue circles or dodging.

[Cerioth.7062]

Heh.

Our group which is a mix of starting raiders (3-6 of us) and random pugs with no LI or KP requirements usually do greens in first 2 phases and ignore them entirely on the last phase.

Doable.

[Shadow Chaser.1948]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

It is very easy

and you don't need any single aegis because it won't help you against the damage impact from the green explosion. All you need is one or two competent healers that know when to burst heal, a competent tank (you need him with the other tactic as well) and players not getting ported by blues which shouldn't happen if they are in max melee range, watch out and have the ingame sound running if it's not manageable for them otherwise (you can hear the blue ports "building up").The nerf to druid didn't change anything for this tactic unless your druids weren't already really skilled before.

You say it is very easy but then you say that you need competent this and that with tank, druid and players staying on max melee range and whatever else. So easy i guess.Its so easy to save the world from North Korea too. Even Trump did it. :)

What you are aiming for are braindead encounters. Raids are the endgame in GW2 PvE and the most challenging content in this game. So yeah, there is no contradiction in my post since we are talking about people that should be experienced and not beginners. If you have killed VG more than 10-20 times you should know what's going on otherwise you find yourself in a sad state in terms of skill!In addition, a competent healer means that this player isn't just using staff 1 for pew pew and maybe using CA4 because he heard that it can heal. Mentioning the tank is negligible because it doesn't matter what tactic you are using he has to do his job otherwise both tactics fail. Last but not least the max melee thing is a help. I know most people don't know how to handle that or what it even means but then I expect them to pay more attention to walk out of the blue circles or dodging.

I know what you are saying but it's not that easy as group when you play with 9 other strangers.I know this because I pug all my raids. Never been in statics.Sometime, I join lfg and find myself surrounded by 6 or 7 static group, and it's usually breeze.

[Shadow Chaser.1948]

@Cerioth.7062 said:Heh.

Our group which is a mix of starting raiders (3-6 of us) and random pugs with no LI or KP requirements usually do greens in first 2 phases and ignore them entirely on the last phase.

Doable.

You ignore them on last phase coz if anyone port and die, you can leave them and still get the kill. It's whole a lot different with 9 other stranger.

[ReaverKane.7598]

LOL it's hard to outheal greens?I don't know about it now after druid nerfs (haven't raided in a few weeks).But i've had an instance where the second druid died (didn't spot a blue just before green triggered), and my brother outhealed greens alone with a magi/minstrels druid for a bunch of the penultimate and all the final phase.It helps that i was doing the tanking with minstrel's gear and some healy traits (all's well when ends well), restorative mantras (using healing mantra) all that backed by healing Prism, puts out some decent off-heals.

Honestly, the only real difficulty of VG is from Arena Net artificially making it harder by making blues harder to read than they should be.Blues visuals get drowned out by just about any AoE, but especially chrono wells. And their sound is also drowned out by a lot of skills (again chrono wells being amongst them).If all that clutter stopped overriding blues' tells, VG would be considerably easier.

[Vinceman.4572]

The nerfs are irrelevant because the "pug meta" was and is 2 heal druids which is much more than needed in a "decent" group. If those groups fail it's because you have very bad players in it - either druids that are incompetent or too many slackers getting ported by blues. I've been in a 250 LI pug yesterday and it wasn't understandable for me that the first try failed but I guess this group was full with 100 LIs from Escort and the other ones from several Wing 4 bosses and maybe one boss here and there. And of course maybe some LI fakers.

[Cerioth.7062]

@Kal Bhairav.6589 said:

@Cerioth.7062 said:Heh.

Our group which is a mix of starting raiders (3-6 of us) and random pugs with no LI or KP requirements usually do greens in first 2 phases and ignore them entirely on the last phase.

Doable.

You ignore them on last phase coz if anyone port and die, you can leave them and still get the kill. It's whole a lot different with 9 other stranger.

None of us die though :)

[Malediktus.9250]

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:or did not attempt this properly after the changes to Druid healinghttps://gw2raidar.com/encounter/EyesBenchPiesSlamsVisionsit is easy, we did it 2nd try and the 1st try failed because of something not connected to outhealing greens

Anet could nerf druid heal another 30% and it would still be doable

[Talindra.4958]

Can be done only by static group?That's a lot of nonsense.

[thrag.9740]

@nia.4725 said:

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@thrag.9740 said:I think OP is forgetting all the times pug had trouble standing in a giant green circle. At least with skipping greens all downed players are in not lit sections.

With my pug experience I can 100% say that mistakes with overheal vs mistakes with standing in greens are in a 4:1 ratio...

+1

Overheal with pugs is messy and risky and it always almost fails, from my experience.

I guess I would point out this difference. Maybe I am different, but typically if I pug, I am still going to invite some reliable friends from my static. If I join a no greens vg as a minstrel chrono tank, I can invite 2 friends to fill druid roles and it is pretty much guaranteed to go smoothly. Doing greens requires 5 players who know what they are doing, the tank (who needs to make sure greens don't spawn in lit sections) and 4 players who can stand in greens. 5 competent players is harder to find than 3.

[nia.4725]

@thrag.9740 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@thrag.9740 said:I think OP is forgetting all the times pug had trouble standing in a giant green circle. At least with skipping greens all downed players are in not lit sections.

With my pug experience I can 100% say that mistakes with overheal vs mistakes with standing in greens are in a 4:1 ratio...

+1

Overheal with pugs is messy and risky and it always almost fails, from my experience.

I guess I would point out this difference. Maybe I am different, but typically if I pug, I am still going to invite some reliable friends from my static. If I join a no greens vg as a minstrel chrono tank, I can invite 2 friends to fill druid roles and it is pretty much guaranteed to go smoothly. Doing greens requires 5 players who know what they are doing, the tank (who needs to make sure greens don't spawn in lit sections) and 4 players who can stand in greens. 5 competent players is harder to find than 3.

Outheal is not just a decent tank and decent healers. Outheal means stacking, and stacking means that everyone has to be on point. They can't get teleported, or they'll probably die far away from the stack. They have to stack properly behind the vale guardian, but with so much visual clutter it isn't as easy to see something that basic. Yesterday, I did outheal VG. I was the tank. First 2 phases at the center, then rotating. I didn't do it perfectly (I got teleported once), but the main problem was that we had 2-4 players getting teleported at almost all blues. So how a tank and a druid could have saved the raid? Nah they couldn't do that, since everyone else was not doing things properly. We killed VG when less people got tped.

[Shadow Chaser.1948]

But i've had an instance where the second druid died (didn't spot a blue just before green triggered), and my brother outhealed greens alone with a magi/minstrels druid for a bunch of the penultimate and all the final phase.

I have also killed Dhuum with 1 druid and scourge kiter. In fact, that was one my smoothest run ever. only 1 Healer in entire group. But, i am not sit here and say dhuum is easy with only 1 druid. Because while it can be easy with all decent player, you only need 1 to completely mess it up.

[Shadow Chaser.1948]

@Talindra.4958 said:Can be done only by static group?That's a lot of nonsense.

That's not what OP means. He was simply saying that its usually messy with pug trying to outheal green. People really have no idea how pug works. I should know. Because all 1000+li that i earned, i have only done with pug (except, i joined static 1 time and left after a week). It is very unpredictable and that is the best part :).So, outhealing green can be smooth and effective but most of the time, it's cluster mess.

[Deadvillager.1956]

I havent done greens for months now on VG and i havent had a static since like the beginning of the year. Greens are outdated, you just need to know how to stack properly.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Talindra.4958 said:Can be done only by static group?That's a lot of nonsense.Nah, it can be done with pugs as well (and in fact pugs do seem to prefer that strategy, as it is faster when performed correctly). It's just depending on the players you get it can be far less reliable than doing greens. And in pugs it's simply much harder to control the quality of players.

TL/DR; it should be done with experienced groups only, because the chances of messing it up with a poor quality group are bigger than with greens strategy.

[thrag.9740]

@nia.4725 said:

@thrag.9740 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@thrag.9740 said:I think OP is forgetting all the times pug had trouble standing in a giant green circle. At least with skipping greens all downed players are in not lit sections.

With my pug experience I can 100% say that mistakes with overheal vs mistakes with standing in greens are in a 4:1 ratio...

+1

Overheal with pugs is messy and risky and it always almost fails, from my experience.

I guess I would point out this difference. Maybe I am different, but typically if I pug, I am still going to invite some reliable friends from my static. If I join a no greens vg as a minstrel chrono tank, I can invite 2 friends to fill druid roles and it is pretty much guaranteed to go smoothly. Doing greens requires 5 players who know what they are doing, the tank (who needs to make sure greens don't spawn in lit sections) and 4 players who can stand in greens. 5 competent players is harder to find than 3.

Outheal is not just a decent tank and decent healers. Outheal means stacking, and stacking means that everyone has to be on point. They can't get teleported, or they'll probably die far away from the stack. They have to stack properly behind the vale guardian, but with so much visual clutter it isn't as easy to see something that basic. Yesterday, I did outheal VG. I was the tank. First 2 phases at the center, then rotating. I didn't do it perfectly (I got teleported once), but the main problem was that we had 2-4 players getting teleported at almost all blues. So how a tank and a druid could have saved the raid? Nah they couldn't do that, since everyone else was not doing things properly. We killed VG when less people got tped.

People get teleported regardless of green strategy. They are called bad players, and they tend to die no matter what method you use.

[Vinceman.4572]

@thrag.9740 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@thrag.9740 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@thrag.9740 said:I think OP is forgetting all the times pug had trouble standing in a giant green circle. At least with skipping greens all downed players are in not lit sections.

With my pug experience I can 100% say that mistakes with overheal vs mistakes with standing in greens are in a 4:1 ratio...

+1

Overheal with pugs is messy and risky and it always almost fails, from my experience.

I guess I would point out this difference. Maybe I am different, but typically if I pug, I am still going to invite some reliable friends from my static. If I join a no greens vg as a minstrel chrono tank, I can invite 2 friends to fill druid roles and it is pretty much guaranteed to go smoothly. Doing greens requires 5 players who know what they are doing, the tank (who needs to make sure greens don't spawn in lit sections) and 4 players who can stand in greens. 5 competent players is harder to find than 3.

Outheal is not just a decent tank and decent healers. Outheal means stacking, and stacking means that everyone has to be on point. They can't get teleported, or they'll probably die far away from the stack. They have to stack properly behind the vale guardian, but with so much visual clutter it isn't as easy to see something that basic. Yesterday, I did outheal VG. I was the tank. First 2 phases at the center, then rotating. I didn't do it perfectly (I got teleported once), but the main problem was that we had 2-4 players getting teleported at almost all blues. So how a tank and a druid could have saved the raid? Nah they couldn't do that, since everyone else was not doing things properly. We killed VG when less people got tped.

People get teleported regardless of green strategy. They are called bad players, and they tend to die no matter what method you use.

Exactly.

[nia.4725]

@thrag.9740 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@thrag.9740 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@thrag.9740 said:I think OP is forgetting all the times pug had trouble standing in a giant green circle. At least with skipping greens all downed players are in not lit sections.

With my pug experience I can 100% say that mistakes with overheal vs mistakes with standing in greens are in a 4:1 ratio...

+1

Overheal with pugs is messy and risky and it always almost fails, from my experience.

I guess I would point out this difference. Maybe I am different, but typically if I pug, I am still going to invite some reliable friends from my static. If I join a no greens vg as a minstrel chrono tank, I can invite 2 friends to fill druid roles and it is pretty much guaranteed to go smoothly. Doing greens requires 5 players who know what they are doing, the tank (who needs to make sure greens don't spawn in lit sections) and 4 players who can stand in greens. 5 competent players is harder to find than 3.

Outheal is not just a decent tank and decent healers. Outheal means stacking, and stacking means that everyone has to be on point. They can't get teleported, or they'll probably die far away from the stack. They have to stack properly behind the vale guardian, but with so much visual clutter it isn't as easy to see something that basic. Yesterday, I did outheal VG. I was the tank. First 2 phases at the center, then rotating. I didn't do it perfectly (I got teleported once), but the main problem was that we had 2-4 players getting teleported at almost all blues. So how a tank and a druid could have saved the raid? Nah they couldn't do that, since everyone else was not doing things properly. We killed VG when less people got tped.

People get teleported regardless of green strategy. They are called bad players, and they tend to die no matter what method you use.

Congrats on your generalisation.

[Vinceman.4572]

@nia.4725 said:

@thrag.9740 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@thrag.9740 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@thrag.9740 said:I think OP is forgetting all the times pug had trouble standing in a giant green circle. At least with skipping greens all downed players are in not lit sections.

With my pug experience I can 100% say that mistakes with overheal vs mistakes with standing in greens are in a 4:1 ratio...

+1

Overheal with pugs is messy and risky and it always almost fails, from my experience.

I guess I would point out this difference. Maybe I am different, but typically if I pug, I am still going to invite some reliable friends from my static. If I join a no greens vg as a minstrel chrono tank, I can invite 2 friends to fill druid roles and it is pretty much guaranteed to go smoothly. Doing greens requires 5 players who know what they are doing, the tank (who needs to make sure greens don't spawn in lit sections) and 4 players who can stand in greens. 5 competent players is harder to find than 3.

Outheal is not just a decent tank and decent healers. Outheal means stacking, and stacking means that everyone has to be on point. They can't get teleported, or they'll probably die far away from the stack. They have to stack properly behind the vale guardian, but with so much visual clutter it isn't as easy to see something that basic. Yesterday, I did outheal VG. I was the tank. First 2 phases at the center, then rotating. I didn't do it perfectly (I got teleported once), but the main problem was that we had 2-4 players getting teleported at almost all blues. So how a tank and a druid could have saved the raid? Nah they couldn't do that, since everyone else was not doing things properly. We killed VG when less people got tped.

People get teleported regardless of green strategy. They are called bad players, and they tend to die no matter what method you use.

Congrats on your generalisation.

In that case he is absolutely right. Either you hear the blue circles and/or see them or you're just bad if you don't avoid them.

[nia.4725]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@thrag.9740 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@thrag.9740 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@thrag.9740 said:I think OP is forgetting all the times pug had trouble standing in a giant green circle. At least with skipping greens all downed players are in not lit sections.

With my pug experience I can 100% say that mistakes with overheal vs mistakes with standing in greens are in a 4:1 ratio...

+1

Overheal with pugs is messy and risky and it always almost fails, from my experience.

I guess I would point out this difference. Maybe I am different, but typically if I pug, I am still going to invite some reliable friends from my static. If I join a no greens vg as a minstrel chrono tank, I can invite 2 friends to fill druid roles and it is pretty much guaranteed to go smoothly. Doing greens requires 5 players who know what they are doing, the tank (who needs to make sure greens don't spawn in lit sections) and 4 players who can stand in greens. 5 competent players is harder to find than 3.

Outheal is not just a decent tank and decent healers. Outheal means stacking, and stacking means that everyone has to be on point. They can't get teleported, or they'll probably die far away from the stack. They have to stack properly behind the vale guardian, but with so much visual clutter it isn't as easy to see something that basic. Yesterday, I did outheal VG. I was the tank. First 2 phases at the center, then rotating. I didn't do it perfectly (I got teleported once), but the main problem was that we had 2-4 players getting teleported at almost all blues. So how a tank and a druid could have saved the raid? Nah they couldn't do that, since everyone else was not doing things properly. We killed VG when less people got tped.

People get teleported regardless of green strategy. They are called bad players, and they tend to die no matter what method you use.

Congrats on your generalisation.

In that case he is absolutely right. Either you hear the blue circles and/or see them or you're just bad if you don't avoid them.

No, he isn't. A bad player is someone who eats blue circles constantly. Someone wno knows the mechanics but isn't capable of executing them. But everybody has a bad day sometimes.

My vg from yesterday was with my static. They are not bad players. We all had a bad day, that's it. Some days we 5man vg and do wing 4 cms in a short time, some days are bad and we do weird things. Or are you all perfect and play perfect always?

I'm sure you don't. You have your up and downs like everyone else.

[Shadow Chaser.1948]

Nia, you can't talk with common sense here. What's the matter with you.These people are elite, pro, superior than anyone.They don't make mistake. They pull SC benchmark everytime. Hell, they have already found cure for cancer and ebola.Who are you and me as well trying to say otherwise.

[nia.4725]

@Kal Bhairav.6589 said:Nia, you can't talk with common sense here. What's the matter with you.These people are elite, pro, superior than anyone.They don't make mistake. They pull SC benchmark everytime. Hell, they have already found cure for cancer and ebola.Who are you and me as well trying to say otherwise.

Hahahahaha.

Funny thing, SC has Sloth video where one if their members confuses the fixated mechanic with the poison. They are such bad players : v

[Vinceman.4572]

We do mistakes, of course but it won't lead to a wipe. Worst case is 2-3 people dying during the fight while the rest beat VG anyway. And that's the only point here. It's not about people making a single mistake from time to time.We also wiped once on Monday due to not having a good arrangement in the first place but it was a solid kill next attempt - like always. This is the difference between good and bad players because the latter wipe again and again and again like the OP described. That's what this thread is all about.

[nia.4725]

@Vinceman.4572 said:We do mistakes, of course but it won't lead to a wipe. Worst case is 2-3 people dying during the fight while the rest beat VG anyway. And that's the only point here. It's not about people making a single mistake from time to time.

Say that to all the hardcore raid guilds wiping in the tournament due to stupid things : D