Why Condi thief is bad for the game

[saerni.2584]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical.

The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

The point isn't about dancing dagger, dancing dagger was just used as a example. The point is the build is using a number of procs that can be triggered off of strike damage, and completely avoiding all strike damage is not practical.

Condi thief unlike every other class, cannot be juked or baited because procs only trigger and go on ICD when they are successful, and condi thief gets almost all of it's damage and debuffing power from procs.

Fun fact: when an attack is blocked or evaded it decreases the venom count by 1. When an attack has multiple strikes in a short frame it decreases Venom by the number of strikes. (Note: striking an invuln player does not reduce venom counter).

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Couple things. I'm on the fence about this, but I am leaning toward allowing it for the moment, mainly because of the prevalence of the mindset below.

@Rufo.3716 said:Thief in general as it is right now is bad for the game. The crazy amount of stealth combined with all those stupid ports and movement are just plain dumb.

Condi Mirage and Condi Thief have similar annoying condition applications, but one of those classes can also ignore shutdowns and the other has the lowest HP in the game.

I am fine with classes being annoying and cheesy as long as sneezing on them/stunning them kills them. If you're willing to increase the viability of thieves so they can be proper duelists if specced, then we can talk about increasing the skill requirement for landing dots or p/p reworks. Right now thieves are mobile and deadly, but also exceptionally fragile and easy to down.

Either give them bursty, deadly openers and keep them fragile, or tone them down and give them more raw sustain. Otherwise they will not be useful. It takes considerable skill and awareness just for a thief who has specced for damage to stay alive in the current pvp scene because of their low HP pool, their stealth and movement skills sharing their damage resource pool, and their lack of active blocks, and that often gets disregarded when evaluating thief damage. If you're going to nerf their damage or make it harder to set up, they will need more attrition tools to help them acquire the time to set up burst.And I'm talking active, stealthless attrition so they can contest points.

Also, @Crinn.7864 go play thief.

[babazhook.6805]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical.

The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

The point isn't about dancing dagger, dancing dagger was just used as a example. The point is the build is using a number of procs that can be triggered off of strike damage, and completely avoiding all strike damage is not practical.

Condi thief unlike every other class, cannot be juked or baited because procs only trigger and go on ICD when they are successful, and condi thief gets almost all of it's damage and debuffing power from procs.

No, you still do not get it. Nor does the guy who made the video. Other condition builds have damaging condition applications INHERENT in the weapon. That a Thief has to use a VENOM in order to apply a Condition does not make it more potent. You speak to to not being able to avoid "all strike damage". So what you can not do this against any class.

Example and to simplify. A Thief build uses Spider venom in a s/d build. He loads the venom and now has 5 sattacks tht CAN apply a posion. That is it. That is 5 in 30 seconds The cooldown is 30 seconds NOT 24 and to get 24 SA has to be taken which does not help an s/d build as they rarely stealth. The ONLY other source in his weapon set of a damaging condition is one stack of torment on s/d #4 which is well telegraphed, easy to avoid or block and burns ini.

Now look to a scepter/dagger Necormancer, condition build. Every single attack on their weapons applies damaging conditions. They do not NEED venoms. While #4 does not directly apply a damaging condition it transfers three that are existing.

How many attacks do you think a necormancer can get off in 30 seconds time? The AA channel alone is 1.5 seconds and puts on 4 damaging conditions. You can get 3 Feast of corruptions in that time that will easily apply 12+ torment. Grasping dead can be run three times for 3 bleeds each and 9 bleed stacks. Enfeebling blood can be used at least once for another 2 bleed stacks. Thief with Venom has used a utility slot and is limited to 5 stacks poison for that 30 seconds. You can get off a whack of crippling daggers in that period butr they are only 1 stack torment each. Total that up and the total number of stacks of conditions put on by the necro build dwarfs that of the thief.

Ok so now we talk about TRAITS that proc and add. There are not as many as you suggest. There certainly Panic strike but that works only on IMMOB. Immob is done via sword #2 . Sword #2 costs INI. the more sword numbers #2 used the less times you can use dancing. You can get added procs off dahgger training but that works only on #3 , #4 and #5. All of these cost INI meaning less Number 2. Yes you can trait up more conditions via the steal and traits but so can the necro. Barbed precision as example allows added stacks of Conditions on every crit.

At the end of the day it does not matter whether a Condition applied via a PROC or is inherent in the weapon itself. If I got no damaging condition adds via a weapon a.d use TRAITS so as to apply 30 damaging condition stacks on 30 attacks it is no different then having those conditions inherent in the weapon where I get 30 condition stacks in 30 attacks. The latter is in fact superior because you do not have to burn a trait to get there.

[Ralkuth.1456]

@Crinn.7864 said:You didn't actually watch any of the video did you? It's pretty clearly explained and demonstrated what I have a issue with. And it has nothing to do with Steal.

Also trying to defend the torment access because of P/D which isn't a real build and is never used in any gamemode ever is just silly.I have this strong feeling of déjà vu because way back in the old forums this player has also defended Condi Thief and P/D in particular rather vigourously. He seems to like the set a lot and does well with it but that's not the point.

Your point was to adjust Condi Thief's scattered, unavoidable, and multiple procs into a more predictable format, there was also mention of their array of cover condi's which didn't make sense. You wanted to make Condi Thief more interactive to fight (instead of bending over and taking all the disease) for everyone.

That player was just disagreeing with your idea that torment shouldn't be on Condi Thief, and that is likely because Torment has worked out tremendously for the player especially on P/D. Everyone has a motive.

Just an issue of who's having fun - and for game balance that should be the majority.

[Crinn.7864]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical.

The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

The point isn't about dancing dagger, dancing dagger was just used as a example. The point is the build is using a number of procs that can be triggered off of strike damage, and completely avoiding all strike damage is not practical.

Condi thief unlike every other class, cannot be juked or baited because procs only trigger and go on ICD when they are successful, and condi thief gets almost all of it's damage and debuffing power from procs.

No, you still do not get it. Nor does the guy who made the video. Other condition builds have damaging condition applications INHERENT in the weapon. That a Thief has to use a VENOM in order to apply a Condition does not make it more potent. You speak to to not being able to avoid "all strike damage". So what you can not do this against any class.But it's not "a" venom. It's Venom + dagger training + panic strike + fallibility sigil + weakening strikes + pressure striking. That's just the autoprocs, Then we have the controlled procs which are Lotus Poison, Lotus training, Serpent's touch, Bewildering Ambush, and Uncatchable.

Example and to simplify. A Thief build uses Spider venom in a s/d build. He loads the venom and now has 5 sattacks tht CAN apply a posion. That is it. That is 5 in 30 seconds The cooldown is 30 seconds NOT 24I was referring to the 24 second duration of the venom buff, not the cooldown.

Now look to a scepter/dagger Necormancer, condition build. Every single attack on their weapons applies damaging conditions.But you don't need to dodge every attack. You don't care about skills 1, 2, and 3 because those skills only apply 1 condi each (2 for grasping) and can be easily cleansed or simply healed through. The only skills worth a dodge or a block are torch 4 and torch 5.

Ok so now we talk about TRAITS that proc and add. There are not as many as you suggest. There certainly Panic strike but that works only on IMMOB. Immob is done via sword #2 .You do realize that there are two parts to the Panic Strike trait right? Panic Strike causes the thief to automatically apply immob when striking a target below 50%. Which in turns procs poison, which in turns procs Weakness.

[Sampson.2403]

Good video.

Yes its a cheese OP build but that equals fun for me.

Lets talk about how to play condi thief. Outside of the sword 2, dodge combo, what other tactics does a good condi thief use?

[TheDeafGuy.4519]

Let me break down this video:

Argument number 1: "Condi mirage gets most of their condis from shatters", lol, entirely wrong, and they aren't really filler conditions from the weapon if its damaging conditions.

Number 2: "They don't get their damage from most of their skills", this is also wrong. Like he said in the video, three of his weapons skills are dagger abilities which can apply poison, number two is an immobilize which triggers panic strike poison application, and dancing dagger can be deadly on a downed person with someone else rezzing and on combo field, if spammed.

Number 3: "We have two on steal but thats not a condi bomb by itself", yes he is right, but what thief ever just "steals" besides to interrupt, steal is used to combine attacks like he said with infiltrators attack which is a condi bomb in itself when used together, or steal > impairing daggers with venoms. Also with the confusion rework, 6 stacks of confusion does hurt a lot, same with the poison stacks. They are one of the biggest condi bombing classes out there.

Number 4: This one is one of my favorites, "Well it comes from this very convoluted system of trait procs" WARRIOR: Body Blow Stuns, dazes, knockbacks, pulls, pushes, and launches inflict bleeding and weakness. Merciless Hammer Apply confusion on interrupt Sundering Burst burst skills apply vulnerability Bloodlust Chance to apply bleeding on critical hit Leg Specialist Immobilize a target when you cripple them Last Blaze When you use a REEEE skill set nearby opponents on fire No Escape Daze and stuns inflict immobilize Slow Counter Full counter applies cripple and slow Revenge Counter Copies conditions on full counter REVENANT: Expose Defenses Apply vulnerability on first hit in combat Rampant Vex Critical hits can cause torment Venom Enhancement When you inflict torment you also inflict poison Abyssal Chill When you inflict chill you also inflict torment Diabolic Inferno Applies burning to nearby foes when using elite Dwarven Battle Training Chance to apply weakness when hitting, So im going to stop here but I can honestly just go on and on and on with different traitlines each class can have, don't even get my started with Reaper or necromancers in general, HOWEVER they're mostly a condi class.

Number 5: "You basically cannot get hit by a condi thief else they will start getting procs off", So he is right, condi thief does have a lot of filler conditions, but he is entirely wrong about it not having a burst to bait out and that you just need to always keep dodging. To a noob all those condis can look threatening but the only ones that really matter are the poison stacks in general and confusion stacks on steal. This S/D build is not even very strong on the poison application in comparison to other condi builds, but I'll get to that later. But this build does have a burst, its really simple honestly, Precast venoms (if you see this always be ready to dodge) > Infiltrators strike > Steal > Dodge, guess what boys thats it. But where does the damage come from? Well from the steal and infiltrators strike and whatever poison venom applications he got off. Notice I said whatever since these venom stacks do GET USED if the attacks are evaded. Now I'm gonna be reasonable and say not everyone is godlike and can predict the steal and infiltrator strike combo which is nearly impossible to predict, which I agree a lot with him, but if you put up a block or somehow cleansed the immob and dodge such as withdrawl on thief to avoid the dodge part of the burst, he will throw 3 daggers at you that will miss and use up the 3 stacks of his venom which significantly reduce the burst damage. Now lets say you get hit by all of this including all 6 stacks of venom application, its going to hurt, such as any condi bomb. So the actual problem were facing is an S/D Thief can almost instantly teleport to you from 2100 yard range and immobilize you so you can't dodge right away and apply all 6 stacks of venom then return to safety if needed. You're going to have to cleanse the poison off which is going to be hard with the filler condis, this is what makes condi thief unique. They are very heavy on 2 conditions only, with the others being fillers, if you don't cleanse the poison off of you and cleanse the fillers, you're in trouble. But lets take D/D for examaple, they can do a lot except they can't return to safety but they can apply way more poison and bleed if they take Deadly arts and not Acuuurbatics. So they're not considered OP since they don't have the safety return button and less mobility than S/D. Its only S/D condi thief that gets the heat, no other condi thief, unless the occasional bronze players on the forums who don't know how to time their cc on Acuuurbatic D/D thieves.

Number 6 "How do you know what to dodge or when to dodge, especially when you have cleanses that have cooldowns and blocks that have cooldowns" Well, same with the Condi burst on condi S/D thief (I'm going to start calling it S/D condi thief from here on out because its literally the only condi thief that has ever been a meta pick, and I wonder why). Venom is a 30 seconds cooldown, steal is a 26 second cooldown, so they burst is about on average a 30 second cooldown, other than that, they're either smacking away with their sword so the fight doesn't reset, resetting the fight because they almost got killed themselves with infiltrators return, or a mixture of both with some harmless condition dodge spam, or harmless infiltrator strike spam that is hitting like a wet noodle or at least keeping his opponent in check. So save your biggest cleanses for the initial burst after he dodges and apply all his stacks or dodge or block the burst or at least the dodge portion.

Number 7 So just watched this part of the video where he talked about the combo I just listed, but he said if he fails that combo he can set off all the procs he just set off, which is true but they're very short lasting procs that aren't really threatening.

Number 8 Can't predict infiltrators strike is more of an S/D issue than condi issue, it just becomes an issue when tied to condi traitlines and how this build works.

Number 9 He mentions my argument number 4 now in the video saying a lot of other classes don't have the convenience for this set up which is true in some cases but necromancer is actually convenient and so is mirage. It's just trickery is so overturned in comparison to other traitlines and acrobatics can be used on D/D condi thief, since this video is about condi thief and not only S/D condi thief.

So I don't entirely agree with you're rework ideas. Removing cripple from dodge would make other condi thief specs very hard to stick to their target such as the prime example D/D, also its only 2 seconds...., I don't even think pressure striking is even that great and no one really even uses it, even S/D thief tbh. Also I'm a firm believer that condi classes should have access to a little more variety of condition applications so it makes it a little harder to cleanse, if we didn't have filler condis and the occasional extra damaging condition, that would make burst condi classes unviable or easy to beat if you can cleanse the damaging conditions whenever you wanted once they got too high. There is also no random procs on thief, just dagger training. Also weakening strikes is not really taken either besides for S/D condi, meta battle also says brawlers tenacity is the better option. So I'm actually happy you made this video because it does bring awareness to the condi aspect of thieves and I want anet to look more into it, which they have with the deadly arts change, dancing dagger torment application, etc. But i will say your argument as to why this build is meta is also wrong. This build is only powerful because of the S/D aspect of it. The reason why this build fell out of meta was because of the acrobatic changes making power S/D better but then came back to meta after S/D acrobatics was nerfed. Even then S/D power is very powerful and is used frequently. So my main argument here is that its not condi thief that's the main culprit here, but S/D number#2 specifically. It gives way too much for a weapon skill that can be spammed.

TLDRHonestly anet just needs to do one things if they really want to stop S/D condi thief being used how its used, remove immob on the infiltrators strike, which will reduce damage from panic strikes, make the enemy be able to dodge after they get jumped on so they can dodge the lotus training and whatever applications of spider venom. Or reword sword 2 since its caused so many problems with balance of S/D, Sorry for any mistypes and not really trying to attack this guy, but I think hes really complaining mostly about S/D thief in general and not just condi thief, its never been meta until now with S/D.

[babazhook.6805]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical.

The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

The point isn't about dancing dagger, dancing dagger was just used as a example. The point is the build is using a number of procs that can be triggered off of strike damage, and completely avoiding all strike damage is not practical.

Condi thief unlike every other class, cannot be juked or baited because procs only trigger and go on ICD when they are successful, and condi thief gets almost all of it's damage and debuffing power from procs.

No, you still do not get it. Nor does the guy who made the video. Other condition builds have damaging condition applications INHERENT in the weapon. That a Thief has to use a VENOM in order to apply a Condition does not make it more potent. You speak to to not being able to avoid "all strike damage". So what you can not do this against any class.But it's not "a" venom. It's Venom + dagger training + panic strike + fallibility sigil + weakening strikes + pressure striking. That's just the autoprocs, Then we have the controlled procs which are Lotus Poison, Lotus training, Serpent's touch, Bewildering Ambush, and Uncatchable.

Example and to simplify. A Thief build uses Spider venom in a s/d build. He loads the venom and now has 5 sattacks tht CAN apply a posion. That is it. That is 5 in 30 seconds The cooldown is 30 seconds NOT 24I was referring to the 24 second duration of the venom buff, not the cooldown.

Now look to a scepter/dagger Necormancer, condition build. Every single attack on their weapons applies damaging conditions.But you don't need to dodge every attack. You don't care about skills 1, 2, and 3 because those skills only apply 1 condi each (2 for grasping) and can be easily cleansed or simply healed through. The only skills worth a dodge or a block are torch 4 and torch 5.

Ok so now we talk about TRAITS that proc and add. There are not as many as you suggest. There certainly Panic strike but that works only on IMMOB. Immob is done via sword #2 .You do realize that there are two parts to the Panic Strike trait right? Panic Strike causes the thief to automatically apply immob when striking a target below 50%. Which in turns procs poison, which in turns procs Weakness.

Now you move the Goalposts/ You are talking about Multiple different attacks. All of those things do not happen at once. They are ALL seperate attacks any one of which can be avoided. How is this different from what a Necro can do or a warrior can do? They can do multiple attacks as well each applying conditions.

As to one trait triggering another this hardly unique to thief.

Let us use necro as example. With a FEAR i can get that fear to add torment and chill and vulnerability. By inflicting that Chill I can add bleeds and more vuln. So that fear now added bleed chill vuln torment . That fear in adding bleed , torment vuln and Chill now means all my attacks do more damage.

Reapers mark turns from a base damage skill with fear to one that procs multiple conditions multiple types all procceed via traits off the original fear and this with a SINGLE attack instance. You can also proc might off this same single skill due to traits proccing off that single fear and cascading down.

[babazhook.6805]

But you don't need to dodge every attack. You don't care about skills 1, 2, and 3 because those skills only apply 1 condi each (2 for grasping) and can be easily cleansed or simply healed through. The only skills worth a dodge or a block are torch 4 and torch 5.

You do not have to dodge every attack on a thief either! Nor do you have to cleanse after 5 poison applied! S/d has ONE attack that applies damaging conditions directly. You do not have to dodge all of those. When I mentioned spider venom THIS was your response "In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical."

All you need to do is avoid 5 attacks in 30 seconds to avoid 5 stacks of poison and you claimed you could not do this while a few posts later my exampling a person being able to to do 60 some attacks in that same period of time EACH adding a condition and you respond with "you do not have to avoid all of them can they only apply one condition each". Thats an epic contradiction.

Ok the thief can throw a second Venom on such as skale. Now in that 30 second period using venoms he can STILL only apply 9 total condition stacks while using up TWO utility slots and the necro is still MILES ahead in total condition stacks just because his conditions come directly from the weapon. That thief now has one Utility slot free for cleanse sor stunbreaks and The Necro has not even needed to use a utility to add far more condition stacks.

[Jalal.6783]

@Rufo.3716 said:Thief in general as it is right now is bad for the game. The crazy amount of stealth combined with all those stupid ports and movement are just plain dumb.

I've been saying that since season 1. It's borderline uncounterable and by no means expresses skill whatsoever. What's the skillcap in being invisible and out of range of all the enemies attacks and deciding when YOU want to attack them while quickly cowering out or range or in invisibility. They have all the answers and if they are going to somehow lose, by the time they unstealth and you realize where they are, they are half way across the map to plus another fight. It just doesn't make any sense. It's skilless and extremely effective, words that should never be used together

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

I really don't want to see condi thief get changed. as right now... Thief only has one role in PvP. Which is to go far and decap. It's just not fun or fair for the thief to get limited to that one role.

If Anet can fix thief's lack of identity in PvP and pve, then I won't mind.

[TheDeafGuy.4519]

@Jalal.6783 said:

@Rufo.3716 said:Thief in general as it is right now is bad for the game. The crazy amount of stealth combined with all those stupid ports and movement are just plain dumb.

I've been saying that since season 1. It's borderline uncounterable and by no means expresses skill whatsoever. What's the skillcap in being invisible and out of range of all the enemies attacks and deciding when YOU want to attack them while quickly cowering out or range or in invisibility. They have all the answers and if they are going to somehow lose, by the time they unstealth and you realize where they are, they are half way across the map to plus another fight. It just doesn't make any sense. It's skilless and extremely effective, words that should never be used together

what skilless about a class that doesn't have any natural defenses besides to evade and stealth? Its a niche play style you find in many mmorpgs. Thieves have been one of the hardest classes to play and if it was so skilless and and extremely effective, you would see them everywhere

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical.

The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

The point isn't about dancing dagger, dancing dagger was just used as a example. The point is the build is using a number of procs that can be triggered off of strike damage, and completely avoiding all strike damage is not practical.

Condi thief unlike every other class, cannot be juked or baited because procs only trigger and go on ICD when they are successful, and condi thief gets almost all of it's damage and debuffing power from procs.

Welcome to the world of thieves. We're not allowed to have blocks, loads of self sustain, unique buffs, or high hp. We have to fucking dodge everything to stay alive.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Jalal.6783 said:

@Rufo.3716 said:Thief in general as it is right now is bad for the game. The crazy amount of stealth combined with all those stupid ports and movement are just plain dumb.

I've been saying that since season 1. It's borderline uncounterable and by no means expresses skill whatsoever. What's the skillcap in being invisible and out of range of all the enemies attacks and deciding when YOU want to attack them while quickly cowering out or range or in invisibility. They have all the answers and if they are going to somehow lose, by the time they unstealth and you realize where they are, they are half way across the map to plus another fight. It just doesn't make any sense. It's skilless and extremely effective, words that should never be used together

The amount of thieves I consistently eat with my revenant goes to show that the class is not skill-less nor extremely effective unless played well by a competent player. Also spvp is a 5v5 game, it's perfectly fine if you can't win all your 1v1s and have classes that directly counter your build. I don't think condi thief or thief in general is a problem despite playing the class that is perhaps the most directly countered by it.

[saerni.2584]

@Ralkuth.1456

While I disagree with his torment comments it’s not because I played torment specifically until recently. The reason I switched was because Anet specifically added torment to Dancing Dagger and brought Shadow Strike’s torment up to four stacks in all game modes. You can dismiss this aspect as bias but I think I’m making an objective statement that “Anet intends to include torment on thief builds.” This applies to both Dancing Dagger and Lotus dodge on Daredevil as the more recent inclusions of torment on thief weapons and traits.

As to the rest, I disagree with Crinn because there are fundamental logical flaws with the argument itself.

I don’t, in general, like the argument that builds are “skill less.” It’s an ad hominem that doesn’t provide an actual critique other than “you are shit and only carried by this build.” It’s immature and something I push back constantly against whatever the build or playstyle.

I have played P/D in bleed, poison and poison/torment hybrids from core through PoF. I’ll use that knowledge to make reasoned arguments about how OP or UP a skill is. That’s not bias that’s simply experience.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical.

The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

The point isn't about dancing dagger, dancing dagger was just used as a example. The point is the build is using a number of procs that can be triggered off of strike damage, and completely avoiding all strike damage is not practical.

Condi thief unlike every other class, cannot be juked or baited because procs only trigger and go on ICD when they are successful, and condi thief gets almost all of it's damage and debuffing power from procs.

No, you still do not get it. Nor does the guy who made the video. Other condition builds have damaging condition applications INHERENT in the weapon. That a Thief has to use a VENOM in order to apply a Condition does not make it more potent. You speak to to not being able to avoid "all strike damage". So what you can not do this against any class.But it's not "a" venom. It's Venom + dagger training + panic strike + fallibility sigil + weakening strikes + pressure striking. That's just the autoprocs

No one even uses Dagger Training, Weakening Strikes orPressure Striking on s/d condition thief. I don't even take Spider Venom usually since IMO it makes you far glassier than the power d/p dash build (you're slower, lack stealth, shadowstep is only stunbreak) and only adds a single condition that can be cleansed with one cleanse after application.

[babazhook.6805]

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical.

The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

The point isn't about dancing dagger, dancing dagger was just used as a example. The point is the build is using a number of procs that can be triggered off of strike damage, and completely avoiding all strike damage is not practical.

Condi thief unlike every other class, cannot be juked or baited because procs only trigger and go on ICD when they are successful, and condi thief gets almost all of it's damage and debuffing power from procs.

No, you still do not get it. Nor does the guy who made the video. Other condition builds have damaging condition applications INHERENT in the weapon. That a Thief has to use a VENOM in order to apply a Condition does not make it more potent. You speak to to not being able to avoid "all strike damage". So what you can not do this against any class.But it's not "a" venom. It's Venom + dagger training + panic strike + fallibility sigil + weakening strikes + pressure striking. That's just the autoprocs

No one even uses Dagger Training, Weakening Strikes orPressure Striking on s/d condition thief. I don't even take Spider Venom usually since IMO it makes you far glassier than the power d/p dash build (you're slower, lack stealth, shadowstep is only stunbreak) and only adds a single condition that can be cleansed with one cleanse after application.

Dagger training is not very useful on s/d because it has a low duration of poison (2 seconds) , works only on the dagger portion of the build (3 4 and 5 which are not mainstays of the build) and runs on an RGN. Respite is vastly superior. Whenever I see a video where a guy tries to make his point by attacking a Golem , I tend to tune out.

[Ralkuth.1456]

@"saerni.2584" said:I don’t, in general, like the argument that builds are “skill less.” It’s an ad hominem that doesn’t provide an actual critique other than “you are kitten and only carried by this build.” It’s immature and something I push back constantly against whatever the build or playstyle.You can of course not like "this build requires no skill" arguments in general. That is not being disputed. If anything meta builds that are easy to pick up give the average player a fighting chance and improve one's prospects in the lower tiers. Easy builds can also be intricate and have a high skill ceiling, but if it's just plain easy I think it's fair to be a bit less effective.

Granted, Crinn gave no suggestions on how to change Thief to (1) make it more interactive to play against and (2) change it without making it a nerf to its function, but I don't think that directly implies he is just looking for a nerf. He doesn't sound like he's trying to push for that. He's just pointing out how easy it is to land the load.

"Ok here is a problem..." while in this case Crinn did not finish with "here is my suggestion", it does not implicitly mean "we throw the problem away" is always the other half. We can continue with "anyone have ideas on how to fix this?" and the discussion doesn't have to be nerf/not-nerf black and white.

In the meantime I think I will go enjoy Condi Thief a bit more...

[Xtinct.7031]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical.

The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

The point isn't about dancing dagger, dancing dagger was just used as a example. The point is the build is using a number of procs that can be triggered off of strike damage, and completely avoiding all strike damage is not practical.

Condi thief unlike every other class, cannot be juked or baited because procs only trigger and go on ICD when they are successful, and condi thief gets almost all of it's damage and debuffing power from procs.

No, you still do not get it. Nor does the guy who made the video. Other condition builds have damaging condition applications INHERENT in the weapon. That a Thief has to use a VENOM in order to apply a Condition does not make it more potent. You speak to to not being able to avoid "all strike damage". So what you can not do this against any class.But it's not "a" venom. It's Venom + dagger training + panic strike + fallibility sigil + weakening strikes + pressure striking. That's just the autoprocs

No one even uses Dagger Training, Weakening Strikes orPressure Striking on s/d condition thief. I don't even take Spider Venom usually since IMO it makes you far glassier than the power d/p dash build (you're slower, lack stealth, shadowstep is only stunbreak) and only adds a single condition that can be cleansed with one cleanse after application.

Dagger training is not very useful on s/d because it has a low duration of poison (2 seconds) , works only on the dagger portion of the build (3 4 and 5 which are not mainstays of the build) and runs on an RGN. Respite is vastly superior. Whenever I see a video where a guy tries to make his point by attacking a Golem , I tend to tune out.

Yea totally agree, the duration and RGN for dagger training does not warrant it's use over something like Mug or Trap on Heal. Also, news flash, impaling lotus sucks now since the condition duration nerf. I don't get why this guy is crying about a weak thief build well post nerf.

[Solori.6025]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical.

The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

The point isn't about dancing dagger, dancing dagger was just used as a example. The point is the build is using a number of procs that can be triggered off of strike damage, and completely avoiding all strike damage is not practical.

Condi thief unlike every other class, cannot be juked or baited because procs only trigger and go on ICD when they are successful, and condi thief gets almost all of it's damage and debuffing power from procs.

Fun fact: when an attack is blocked or evaded it decreases the venom count by 1. When an attack has multiple strikes in a short frame it decreases Venom by the number of strikes. (Note: striking an invuln player does not reduce venom counter).

So, you need to find a thief dumb enough to waste all strikes against a blocking, evading, and invuln foe and be playing the class and build who chains all these abilities and is still able to counter pressure and kill the thief while also having continuous Condi cleanse....What class and build is this again?

[saerni.2584]

@Solori.6025 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical.

The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

The point isn't about dancing dagger, dancing dagger was just used as a example. The point is the build is using a number of procs that can be triggered off of strike damage, and completely avoiding all strike damage is not practical.

Condi thief unlike every other class, cannot be juked or baited because procs only trigger and go on ICD when they are successful, and condi thief gets almost all of it's damage and debuffing power from procs.

Fun fact: when an attack is blocked or evaded it decreases the venom count by 1. When an attack has multiple strikes in a short frame it decreases Venom by the number of strikes. (Note: striking an invuln player does not reduce venom counter).

So, you need to find a thief dumb enough to waste all strikes against a blocking, evading, and invuln foe and be playing the class and build who chains all these abilities and is still able to counter pressure and kill the thief while also having continuous Condi cleanse....What class and build is this again?

All strikes? No, just enough to mitigate most of the damage. You either block enough strikes that the damage isn’t that high or you cleanse after the Venom is fully applied to substantially mitigate the damage.

Thieves will try to quickly load up a target with venoms. This is mainly accomplished through attacks that hit multiple times. For example a Sneak Attack will apply one stack per strike. So if you block three shots of the Sneak Attack you can avoid three stacks of venom. Each Lotus projectile counts for Venom application.

Spider Venom is six stacks but individual stacks will only do between 1-2k damage each over roughly 10-12 seconds. So if you block or evade even three attacks that is 3-6k less damage over that time. You can increase those numbers via might etc but the general idea is that you can expect you need to block or evade some of the thieves skills. At a certain point you don’t even have to cleanse because the blocks also let you avoid other conditions normally applied by the thief’s attacks. (Lotus dodge application of torment and bleed).

That’s not unreasonable. If I eat all my opponents attacks I should go down. It doesn’t matter if I’m fighting condi or power I can’t reasonably argue I should never have to evade or block. Condi also gives you a second chance after you eat attacks to just cleanse away the damage.

If you can’t block/evade/cleanse you are going to die a lot in GW2.

[Synstylae.2751]

@Solori.6025 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical.

The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

The point isn't about dancing dagger, dancing dagger was just used as a example. The point is the build is using a number of procs that can be triggered off of strike damage, and completely avoiding all strike damage is not practical.

Condi thief unlike every other class, cannot be juked or baited because procs only trigger and go on ICD when they are successful, and condi thief gets almost all of it's damage and debuffing power from procs.

Fun fact: when an attack is blocked or evaded it decreases the venom count by 1. When an attack has multiple strikes in a short frame it decreases Venom by the number of strikes. (Note: striking an invuln player does not reduce venom counter).

So, you need to find a thief dumb enough to waste all strikes against a blocking, evading, and invuln foe and be playing the class and build who chains all these abilities and is still able to counter pressure and kill the thief while also having continuous Condi cleanse....What class and build is this again?

Yeah, because all thieves always choose to attack into evade, block. Right? Let me get this straight, you want a class and build thats able to avoid all strikes, deliver counter presure and clear condies non-stop? Did you take your morning pills?

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@Solori.6025 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical.

The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

The point isn't about dancing dagger, dancing dagger was just used as a example. The point is the build is using a number of procs that can be triggered off of strike damage, and completely avoiding all strike damage is not practical.

Condi thief unlike every other class, cannot be juked or baited because procs only trigger and go on ICD when they are successful, and condi thief gets almost all of it's damage and debuffing power from procs.

Fun fact: when an attack is blocked or evaded it decreases the venom count by 1. When an attack has multiple strikes in a short frame it decreases Venom by the number of strikes. (Note: striking an invuln player does not reduce venom counter).

So, you need to find a thief dumb enough to waste all strikes against a blocking, evading, and invuln foe and be playing the class and build who chains all these abilities and is still able to counter pressure and kill the thief while also having continuous Condi cleanse....What class and build is this again?

The one with the player behind the keyboard that can dodge

Source: am revenant main

[mortrialus.3062]

@"TheDeafGuy.4519" said:Let me break down this video:

Argument number 1: "Condi mirage gets most of their condis from shatters", lol, entirely wrong, and they aren't really filler conditions from the weapon if its damaging conditions.

Depends on whether they're running axe or not, but yes it is generally true. Pretty much all off condi Mirage's damage comes from it's shatters and torch. It has reliable chip damage with Jaunt, but that's just that, chip damage. Condi Mirage might be over powered right now, but being able to understand, predict, and avoid the Torch 4+5 and Cry of Frustration is going to push the fight in your favor.

Axe is a bit different as it's ambush is highly aggressive consistent nonstop damage, but running axe means giving up the amazing kiting, utility, and defensive capabilities of staff. And it's heavy hitters like the ambush attack and Axes of Symmetry actually do have tells and aren't just sneakily applied to any and every skill in the build like Condi Thief.

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical.

The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

The point isn't about dancing dagger, dancing dagger was just used as a example. The point is the build is using a number of procs that can be triggered off of strike damage, and completely avoiding all strike damage is not practical.

Condi thief unlike every other class, cannot be juked or baited because procs only trigger and go on ICD when they are successful, and condi thief gets almost all of it's damage and debuffing power from procs.

Fun fact: when an attack is blocked or evaded it decreases the venom count by 1. When an attack has multiple strikes in a short frame it decreases Venom by the number of strikes. (Note: striking an invuln player does not reduce venom counter).

So, you need to find a thief dumb enough to waste all strikes against a blocking, evading, and invuln foe and be playing the class and build who chains all these abilities and is still able to counter pressure and kill the thief while also having continuous Condi cleanse....What class and build is this again?

The one with the player behind the keyboard that can dodge

Source: am revenant mainAny condi thief worth their salt is going to Infiltrator Strike to you from behind Line of Sight, immobilizing you and then bursting you in one fell swoop.

The only classes that can dodge while immobilized are Mirages and Daredevils with Unhindered Combatant.

[Solori.6025]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"TheDeafGuy.4519" said:Let me break down this video:

Argument number 1

: "Condi mirage gets most of their condis from shatters", lol, entirely wrong, and they aren't really filler conditions from the weapon if its damaging conditions.

Depends on whether they're running axe or not, but yes it is generally true. Pretty much all off condi Mirage's damage comes from it's shatters and torch. It has reliable chip damage with Jaunt, but that's just that, chip damage. Condi Mirage might be over powered right now, but being able to understand, predict, and avoid the Torch 4+5 and Cry of Frustration is going to push the fight in your favor.

Axe is a bit different as it's ambush is highly aggressive consistent nonstop damage, but running axe means giving up the amazing kiting, utility, and defensive capabilities of staff. And it's heavy hitters like the ambush attack and Axes of Symmetry actually do have tells and aren't just sneakily applied to any and every skill in the build like Condi Thief.

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical.

The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

The point isn't about dancing dagger, dancing dagger was just used as a example. The point is the build is using a number of procs that can be triggered off of strike damage, and completely avoiding all strike damage is not practical.

Condi thief unlike every other class, cannot be juked or baited because procs only trigger and go on ICD when they are successful, and condi thief gets almost all of it's damage and debuffing power from procs.

Fun fact: when an attack is blocked or evaded it decreases the venom count by 1. When an attack has multiple strikes in a short frame it decreases Venom by the number of strikes. (Note: striking an invuln player does not reduce venom counter).

So, you need to find a thief dumb enough to waste all strikes against a blocking, evading, and invuln foe and be playing the class and build who chains all these abilities and is still able to counter pressure and kill the thief while also having continuous Condi cleanse....What class and build is this again?

The one with the player behind the keyboard that can dodge

Source: am revenant mainAny condi thief worth their salt is going to Infiltrator Strike to you from behind Line of Sight, immobilizing you and then bursting you in one fell swoop.

The only classes that can dodge while immobilized are Mirages and Daredevils with Unhindered Combatant.

Well, Rev' s also can evade while immobilized because shiro, but Revs have insanely poor condi cleanse. If a condi theif losses to a Rev well....