GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[Liquid Storm.8097]

@The Knight of Hope.8023 said:

@"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:how is everything a gender issue with her?

Literally no one cares if she is female or a dolphin!

This is the frame within which ideologues like her believe the world operates. She accused the guy who was providing her polite feedback of being up to no good based only upon the fact that he was male as her sole piece of evidence. They believe exactly the thing that they accuse other people of believing: That everyone who looks or thinks differently from them are bad people who are out to get them. The only way they justify their bad behavior is by claiming other people behaved badly first and thus deserved it. When you boil this ideology down, it's the same erroneous reasoning used by grade school kids on the playground. "Everyone's secretly mean to me, so it's okay to be mean to them." There is a maturity problem that underpins many of these kinds of ideological movements that is not insignificant.

There is also a phenomenon I witnessed many, many times in my career as a translator. Namely, someone who is doing something creative (like translating, writing content, etc) as a profession, when such creator delivers their product and receives non-positive feedback from their customer (even if feedback is delivered in the most respectful, well mannered way possible), the creator will go nuts because he is not sure in himself and his skills anymore. He will try to dismiss the customer's feedback or argue back that the customer is wrong, but deep inside him he starts doubting himself, his skills, his talent, thinking how can one layman be better at this than him with years of experience. The creator can also start bragging how good he is, bringing up his past successful projects, boasting with them, just to receive recognition and restore his damaged pride. Which is exactly what Price has been doing ever since she was asked that question by Deroir.

Of course, the best professionals in any industry will always listen to feedback, admit when they're wrong and change where they think is necessary, while always remain respectful to the people they communicate to. This is why they are and will remain the best in their field. Price, on the other hand, is light years from being a professional, let alone a great one.

[Imba.9451]

@Zabi Zabi.3561 said:

@Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

@Zabi Zabi.3561 said:

@"Loli Ruri.8307" said:I saw the quartering video today, and I'm lolzing at how she has not learned anything. Maybe she can do story writing for Starbucks or McDonalds. XD

there is one thing we can do and this may be a bit harsh on some players in the Living World Story waiting line (sorry folks) but maybe get in touch with a head Dev, ask them to scrap Prices ideas ENTIRELY (including the character she leaked named Cooties) and start from scratch.

This will surely put a hornet (not a bee) in her Bonnet

she was not talking about a character... i think

and any work she had done is probably too far along to scrap, and therefore too expensive.

well that steams my bacon... Price doesn't deserve to have anything future in GW2 to gloat over

Nah, don't give her the satisfaction of being able to say "I TOLD YOU SO!". Because, let's face it, she'd just twist it into making others believe that her contet gets cut because she is a poor woman, that got smacked down by evil white patriarchy after heroically standing up for womens rights.

Just play the game, enjoy what there is to enjoy, and be done with it. Even horrible people sometimes work on good stories. Because let's not forget: It's not the work of a single person. Jessica said so herself, even while contradicting herself a few tweets later.

[furoshiki.6231]

@morrolan.9608 said:Well many in the industry don't believe that, they aren't making games for you and I they are essentially making something akin to art and to believe that they should be beholden to customers when not in customer facing roles is simply entitlement.

And those people sound like a bunch of spoiled children.

If you are taking a paycheck from a company who is relying on you to produce a commercial product which will be profitable, you have a responsibility to make every effort to do that. If they don't want have to to accept the responsibility, they should hand their paychecks back to their employers and go figure out how to support themselves while focusing on making things only for themselves.

In the real world, you have to sometimes do things you'd prefer not to - it is called being an adult. You also tend to have to provide things that other people want and value if you expect them to give you money. A job is a type of contract. A company is hiring you for results, not to indulge your personal delusions of grandeur.

It isn't rocket science: Do your job, try to do it well, try not to hurt the company's reputation, and don't insult the customers in public.

[omgitsbees.8137]

I still don't think Jessica Price did anything wrong and people are blowing her comments out of proportion.

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

@omgitsbees.8137 said:I still don't think Jessica Price did anything wrong and people are blowing her comments out of proportion.

cute

[furoshiki.6231]

@"omgitsbees.8137" said:I still don't think Jessica Price did anything wrong and people are blowing her comments out of proportion.

Swell. If you run a company, hire her. If you don't, go start one and hire her.

All this, "I think an actual company having to deal with the real world, doesn't match up to my fantasy view of how my idealized company in my imaginary world should theoretically work," is beyond tiresome.

The folks living on Fantasy Island should put their money were the mouths are. Either pony up, put your personal livelihoods on the line, and finance your fantasy company and prove that it is viable; or deal with the fact that the world is a more complex place than you seem to want to believe.

In a sane world this wouldn't even need to be debated.

If your employees publicly attack significant segments of you customer base, it is bad for business. It isn't just about JP's feelings, it is also about all those other people who count on Arenanet for a paycheck. What about them? When JP decided, whether you think she was justified or not, to attack a significant portion of the user community, she didn't just put her job at risk, but all the other people who rely on ANet for a paycheck, bite the bullet, show up to work, and don't go out of their way to piss off the customer base, jobs at risk.

Why should those people''s livelihoods be put at risk because JP apparently doesn't know how to 'Adult'?

[The Knight of Hope.8023]

@omgitsbees.8137 said:I still don't think Jessica Price did anything wrong and people are blowing her comments out of proportion.

We're taking her comments as stated. She accused someone of being up to no good based on the fact that they were a male. Then she came back after a brief hiatus and had a meltdown, name calling and accusing people of being much worse things I'm sure I would not be allowed to mention here. You should go actually read her Twitter feed and inform yourself on what she's been saying over the last couple of weeks.

[Tsakhi.8124]

All I have to say is that it's in the past, she did what she did, consequences happened , and people need to let it go and move on. Nothing will be gained by dredging this up time and again. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, everyone has a right to feel what they do, now whether they're right or wrong on any of these is not for me to say. As I said, I see both sides and I'm staying neutral, but this whole grudge thing is ridiculous.

[The Knight of Hope.8023]

She's still on Twitter actively attacking the fans, so I'm not sure how this is somehow over. It's also obviously good that people cared enough to come and show support for ArenaNET for standing up for their customers. I'm very encouraged to see the fanbase not automatically take her side in all of this just because she played her victim card, like too many people choose to do these days. There is plenty to be gained by discussing bad behavior like adults and praising people when they make mature and ethical decisions. We do far too little of that as a society, let alone on the internet.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@The Knight of Hope.8023 said:She's still on Twitter actively attacking the fans, so I'm not sure how this is somehow over. It's also obviously good that people cared enough to come and show support for ArenaNET for standing up for their customers. I'm very encouraged to see the fanbase not automatically take her side in all of this just because she played her victim card, like too many people choose to do these days. There is plenty to be gained by discussing bad behavior like adults and praising people when they make mature and ethical decisions. We do far too little of that as a society, let alone on the internet.

That's the thing, normal, mature human beings would of realised the error in their ways and made an effort to make right the situation.Unfortunately JP does not come across as someone who is a mature human being. The only reason she is still pushing her grudges out in the digital world is because it's all she has left to make herself feel relevant. I agree with others at this stage.. it's best now to let JP tippy toe across those bridges she has set about burning to the ground because it wont take long for her to loose what little relevance she still perceives to have in the world.

As for removing her work from future content, why?No one said her work wasn't any good and that's the sad thing in all this, that's where JP got it all wrong. The content is pretty good so why stoop to her level of spite and malice, at large expense to remove it from the game.... I say let it play though and perhaps she will come to see what MO meant when talking about regret.

[Imba.9451]

@"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

That's the thing, normal, mature human beings would of realised the error in their ways and made an effort to make right the situation.Unfortunately JP does not come across as someone who is a mature human being. The only reason she is still pushing her grudges out in the digital world is because it's all she has left to make herself feel relevant.

I thinks it's alot simpler.Someone questioned something she worked on.She ha a classic case of "artists-pride", combined with low self esteem, and felt attacked.Stuff happened that we are all aware of.Now she could accept that she overreacted, apologize for her mistakes and work on being a better, not so thin skinned human person. But thats inconvenient. I mean, who likes that?!? So let's rather stick with option c, construct a narrative in wich you did nothing wrong in order to avoid any form of inner conflict. And the more she gets confronted with how she behaved, the harder she has to leash out in order to keep her inner balance intact.The true definition of a lost soul. I doubt she will ever realize that how she behaved was wrong.

[Saen.7183]

I'll be in the vaaaaaaaast minority here so I don't know why I even bother saying this, but ArenaNet's handling of this just feels like a massive fuck you not just to its female employees who dare to not take it lying down, but to its female player base as well. She was speaking out not just for women but also other marginalised groups. It was so refreshing to see that in this community.

To the people whose feelings got hurt by her comments, you really need to consider what it's like loving games but belonging to a marginalised group - woman, gay, black, trans - as long as I've been playing MMOs I've seen marginalised people be the punchline of a joke and the target of harassment every time I would log in anywhere (some communities are of course worse than others). Since I was a young teen. And if you try to speak up about it, cause you foolishly think people can be reasoned with, you just get slammed with more rape jokes. This is the experience of female (and othered) gamers. This is the culture Jessica grew up in while just trying to pursue something she loves. So yeah, sorry, but my sympathy goes out to her.

[yann.1946]

@Saen.7183 said:I'll be in the vaaaaaaaast minority here so I don't know why I even bother saying this, but ArenaNet's handling of this just feels like a massive kitten you not just to its female employees who dare to not take it lying down, but to its female player base as well. She was speaking out not just for women but also other marginalised groups. It was so refreshing to see that in this community.

To the people whose feelings got hurt by her comments, you really need to consider what it's like loving games but belonging to a marginalised group - woman, gay, black, trans - as long as I've been playing MMOs I've seen marginalised people be the punchline of a joke and the target of harassment every time I would log in anywhere (some communities are of course worse than others). Since I was a young teen. And if you try to speak up about it, cause you foolishly think people can be reasoned with, you just get slammed with more kitten jokes. This is the experience of female (and othered) gamers. This is the culture Jessica grew up in while just trying to pursue something she loves. So yeah, sorry, but my sympathy goes out to her.

Being in the minority shouldn't give you a free pass to be rude.

This is the problem most people have. She was being a sexist while accusing somebody else of this.

Just imagine if deroir was a female and Jessica male what would the reactions be?

[Magek.4718]

@Saen.7183 said:I'll be in the vaaaaaaaast minority here so I don't know why I even bother saying this, but ArenaNet's handling of this just feels like a massive kitten you not just to its female employees who dare to not take it lying down, but to its female player base as well. She was speaking out not just for women but also other marginalised groups. It was so refreshing to see that in this community.

To the people whose feelings got hurt by her comments, you really need to consider what it's like loving games but belonging to a marginalised group - woman, gay, black, trans - as long as I've been playing MMOs I've seen marginalised people be the punchline of a joke and the target of harassment every time I would log in anywhere (some communities are of course worse than others). Since I was a young teen. And if you try to speak up about it, cause you foolishly think people can be reasoned with, you just get slammed with more kitten jokes. This is the experience of female (and othered) gamers. This is the culture Jessica grew up in while just trying to pursue something she loves. So yeah, sorry, but my sympathy goes out to her.

The fact is, she lashed out at the players which reflects poorly on the company no matter what.

You need to be careful what you say online because it could find its way back to your employer which could get you in trouble and it did.

That's all that happened here. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Saen.7183]

@yann.1946 said:Being in the minority shouldn't give you a free pass to be rude.

This is the problem most people have. She was being a sexist while accusing somebody else of this.

Just imagine if deroir was a female and Jessica male what would the reactions be?

I agree, it doesn't - I just sympathise with where her anger is coming from.

And I'd like to clarify something that I perceive here - Price wasn't being rude to this person because he's male. She reacted the way she did because she perceived this as another case of a man explaining to her how her job works - something that doesn't typically happen the other way around (a woman explaining to an expert male how to do his job). Aside from this, sexism, racism, etc - those words in this context tend to denote widespread beliefs and behaviours. Unless you live in a matriarchal society that has a history of mass unchecked violence and discrimination towards men, unless women are the ruling class and men constantly put at a disadvantage, it is not sexism by definition. You could make a case for discrimination, but it's not sexism. This is not a two-way street. Hope that makes sense.

Either way, I'm probably out now. I fear getting dragged into an opinion war. I merely wanted to offer a different perspective on the situation. What's done is done.

[Imba.9451]

@"Saen.7183" said:

I agree, it doesn't - I just sympathise with where her anger is coming from.

And I'd like to clarify something that I perceive here - Price wasn't being rude to this person because he's male. She reacted the way she did because she perceived this as another case of a man explaining to her how her job works

So yes, she did react that way because what has been said was said by a man. No way around it.Also, he didn't explain her "how her job works", he engaged in an attempt of a friendly discussion.

• something that doesn't typically happen the other way around (a woman explaining to an expert male how to do his job).

How do you know?I mean, yes, video games are mostly played by men, so the feedback will be expressed mostly by men as well. But, unlike some people, most simply apply feedback based on their personal experience of the game - not based on wether the creator was male or female. It's an sttempt of taking the discussion on a factual level. Any attempts of spotting sexism here are not only wide-reached, but downright wrong.

Aside from this, sexism, racism, etc - those words in this context tend to denote widespread beliefs and behaviours. Unless you live in a matriarchal society that has a history of mass unchecked violence and discrimination towards men, unless women are the ruling class and men constantly put at a disadvantage, it is not sexism by definition. You could make a case for discrimination, but it's not sexism. This is not a two-way street. Hope that makes sense.

That reasong is why many feminists get laughed at.I'll just quote wikipedia, but the same definition is to be found everywhere else:"Sexism is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender."It is a two way street, simple as that. Even the word itself expresses that - "sex" + "ism".

[furoshiki.6231]

@"Saen.7183" said:

And I'd like to clarify something that I perceive here - Price wasn't being rude to this person because he's male. She reacted the way she did because she perceived this as another case of a man explaining to her how her job works - something that doesn't typically happen the other way around (a woman explaining to an expert male how to do his job).

You are basically saying, "She didn't respond that way because he's male, only because he's male." Unless JP would respond same way from a female providing the same feedback, it was because he was male.

As for your comment about "a woman explaining to an expert male how to do his job... doesn't typically happen", have you been living in a cave your entire life?

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Saen.7183 said:

@yann.1946 said:Being in the minority shouldn't give you a free pass to be rude.

This is the problem most people have. She was being a sexist while accusing somebody else of this.

Just imagine if deroir was a female and Jessica male what would the reactions be?

I agree, it doesn't - I just sympathise with where her anger is coming from.

And I'd like to clarify something that I perceive here - Price wasn't being rude to this person

because

he's male. She reacted the way she did because she perceived this as another case of a man explaining to her how her job works - something that doesn't typically happen the other way around (a woman explaining to an expert male how to do his job). Aside from this, sexism, racism, etc - those words in this context tend to denote widespread beliefs and behaviours. Unless you live in a matriarchal society that has a history of mass unchecked violence and discrimination towards men, unless women are the ruling class and men constantly put at a disadvantage, it is not sexism by definition. You could make a case for discrimination, but it's not sexism. This is not a two-way street. Hope that makes sense.

Either way, I'm probably out now. I fear getting dragged into an opinion war. I merely wanted to offer a different perspective on the situation. What's done is done.

Her anger came from nothing of the sort.. she was merely seeking an outlet for her continual extremism. There was nothing in the postings to remotely connect Deroir with sexism or any ism.. this was just JP's twisted little defence because she lacks the professional nowse to take any level of critique on board. Then when she saw an opening she jumped in and set the scene for another of her twitter bants.. nothing more, nothing less. What she never bargained for was the almost immediate reaction that hit back at her, far outwaying the support she thought her whack a lune, out of control remarks and accusations would garner.This is not some isolated incident there is prior to this person and the more she tries to double down, the more it shows how desperate she is for any kind of platform to feed her own ego.As I have already said many times in this thread, she only makes it harder for those truly fighting to out these kinds of very real issues in the world.You DO NOT fight injustice by being UNJUST!

[Mim.5792]

i have been playing Guild Wars 2 for awhile (going into my 4th year) Personally, I LOVE the game, and hope it continues for as long as I live. You all at ANet do a wonderful job, the game is huge and it will take me a long, long, long time to get to all there is to do. Thank you for giving me, and the world we live in a wonderful game to play. Living in this world is hard enough, but the game seems to help tremendously. Again, thank you, and keep up the great job you've been doing, and for me, and all the others that play...Please, don't let it end.