GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[thruine.8510]

@Vayne.8563 said:

You can only say what YOU experience, but you can't assume that level of experience is shared by all or even most new people. If most people didn't run dungeons originally, then in fact, most people won't run them now. The people who come here craving dungeons, because there were dungeons in other games, won't all be of the same opinion. And lest you think I'm just babbling. let me assure you, I speak to a whole lot of new people. I help new people in low level zones, but also run a guild with a lot of new people and indeed, a few of them do bring up dungeons, but far more new people just generally want to solo and don't care about dungeons.

This game was never really based around the dungeons. It was centered, since launch, on it's open world content, and people who enjoy that most have found a home here. I personally never cared about or for dungeons even though I've done them all many many many times. But it's not my prime source of entertainment. It wouldn't matter to me if they were in the game or not in the game. So this isn't a problem for new players. This is a problem for you and players who think like you. Which may be a lower percentage of the playerbase than you'd expect.

Because some people simply ask and get the answer that dungeons were the original 5 man content, and they were replaced by fractals and not knowing any better, those people accept that answer and say okay fractals are the new dungeons and they don't think the game is shoddy.

But then there's another group of people that still run dungeons, and they experience it differently because they still have fun with them when they do run them, but they're not so focused on dungeons. In fact, most people don't know dungeons are abandoned, most likely since more than half the playerbase probably not goes to the forums or reddit. They just play the game, and letters in their inventory or not, they happily ignore than dungeons are in the game. This seems to have been the case from the beginning.

Lots of games have older content that either doesn't hold up to new content or the playerbase has given up on. That's normal for most MMOs, except for many, it's the open world. In this game we have more people in the open world, going back to the open world but fewer people in dungeons. What do you suppose would make more of an impression on most people?

This isn't a problem for new players. This is a problem for new players who are insistent that dungeons must be part of some diet that everyone eats. I assure you that's not the case.

There's a flaw in your reasoning. The personal story, assuming all new players complete it, make the statement that the dungeons are important. You have taken this outlook that I've been talking about dungeons as a feature of games for being, well, dungeons. I've been talking how the personal story is so badly done with one of the reasons for it being so bad is because a major portion of it is locked behind a game feature which is ignored. The dungeons. Either fix the dungeons or fix the personal story. Neither one makes a good impression on new players as they stand now and just because everybody doesn't play them shouldn't mean those that do should have a bad experience. Removing a bad feature is better than leaving it in unless you don't care. I don't think they care as long as those playing the newest content are spending. Just my opinion of its issues. Its quite odd to find a game feature (dungeons) available in many games not have any interest in this one game. I think if they cared about them then they might have more interest from players. I certainly wouldn't have written them off so early. I tried to run them my first time through the PS and completely ignored them my second. It had nothing to do with not having the interest and not being directed to them (through emails). It was entirely the content itself which made the decision for me.

[Cyrin.1035]

JP doesn't speak for anyone else. She speaks for herself only. She likes to think and pretend she is noble, looking out for others, and doing them a favor with her actions. She doesn't have the capacity to analyze herself and recognize how she does far more harm to her claimed intention than support. She contradicts herself at every turn and demeans and sours the efforts of everyone else that is doing meaningful work to actually address the issues she claims to be fighting for.

[Vayne.8563]

@thruine.8510 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

You can only say what YOU experience, but you can't assume that level of experience is shared by all or even most new people. If most people didn't run dungeons originally, then in fact, most people won't run them now. The people who come here craving dungeons, because there were dungeons in other games, won't all be of the same opinion. And lest you think I'm just babbling. let me assure you, I speak to a whole lot of new people. I help new people in low level zones, but also run a guild with a lot of new people and indeed, a few of them do bring up dungeons, but far more new people just generally want to solo and don't care about dungeons.

This game was never really based around the dungeons. It was centered, since launch, on it's open world content, and people who enjoy that most have found a home here. I personally never cared about or for dungeons even though I've done them all many many many times. But it's not my prime source of entertainment. It wouldn't matter to me if they were in the game or not in the game. So this isn't a problem for new players. This is a problem for you and players who think like you. Which may be a lower percentage of the playerbase than you'd expect.

Because some people simply ask and get the answer that dungeons were the original 5 man content, and they were replaced by fractals and not knowing any better, those people accept that answer and say okay fractals are the new dungeons and they don't think the game is shoddy.

But then there's another group of people that still run dungeons, and they experience it differently because they still have fun with them when they do run them, but they're not so focused on dungeons. In fact, most people don't know dungeons are abandoned, most likely since more than half the playerbase probably not goes to the forums or reddit. They just play the game, and letters in their inventory or not, they happily ignore than dungeons are in the game. This seems to have been the case from the beginning.

Lots of games have older content that either doesn't hold up to new content or the playerbase has given up on. That's normal for most MMOs, except for many, it's the open world. In this game we have more people in the open world, going back to the open world but fewer people in dungeons. What do you suppose would make more of an impression on most people?

This isn't a problem for new players. This is a problem for new players who are insistent that dungeons must be part of some diet that everyone eats. I assure you that's not the case.

There's a flaw in your reasoning. The personal story, assuming all new players complete it, make the statement that the dungeons are important. You have taken this outlook that I've been talking about dungeons as a feature of games for being, well, dungeons. I've been talking how the personal story is so badly done with one of the reasons for it being so bad is because a major portion of it is locked behind a game feature which is ignored. The dungeons. Either fix the dungeons or fix the personal story. Neither one makes a good impression on new players as they stand now and just because everybody doesn't play them shouldn't mean those that do should have a bad experience. Removing a bad feature is better than leaving it in unless you don't care. I don't think they care as long as those playing the newest content are spending. Just my opinion of its issues. Its quite odd to find a game feature (dungeons) available in many games not have any interest in this one game. I think if they cared about them then they might have more interest from players. I certainly wouldn't have written them off so early. I tried to run them my first time through the PS and completely ignored them my second. It had nothing to do with not having the interest and not being directed to them (through emails). It was entirely the content itself which made the decision for me.

Nope, no flaw. Experience. We ALL had the same statement, and yet most people still never did dungeons having had that same statement. I never thought dungeons were important. In fact, the personal story itself doesn't mention dungeons so much, just some emails you get as you level. Your bad experience isn't based on the dungeons being bad. They're old content. This is an MMO. This happens in every MMO.

In an ideal world, there's enough development time for devs to do EVERYTHING they want to do. Happens in no game ever. Devs have to choose priorities and dungeons are not their priority AND NEVER HAVE BEEN. Not since day one. That's the truth of that matter. They were there, but they were not central to what the game was focused on.

Some people come, and they've got dungeons on the brain from other games. It's likely to me those people will be disappointed in any event, because that's not what this game focuses on. Does it matter if they leave now or in a month? Not so much.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

@Mike O Brien.4613 said:Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

Mo

That lady was over the line.

However, I think Mr. Fries, while I don't agree with his opinion, didn't deserve such punishment. I feel bad for him.

[Cyrin.1035]

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@Mike O Brien.4613 said:Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

Mo

That lady was over the line.

However, I think Mr. Fries, while I don't agree with his opinion, didn't deserve such punishment. I feel bad for him.

He chose a selfish, careless fool over his family, fans, company, and team. But please, feel bad for him. He deserves your sympathy even though he betrayed you and has no remorse about it.

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@"Manasa Devi.7958" said:The kindest thing I can say is "I'm glad she's no longer around to keep doing harm."

But I think what Peter got was a bit harsh.

He got exactly what he deserved and chose for himself.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Personally I don't blame Fries that much, too, for a few reasons. The Protecc instinct is a strong one. It takes an inordinate amount of soy to override that programming. Peter also probably didn't dig through the twitter profiles of all of his coworkers, so he wouldn't know her history. Peter is also on the left, so he probably also buys the line that discrimination is an incommunicable ethereal phenomena, and should be taken wholly on trust alone from marginalized groups. Or rather, anyone who doesn't look like himself. So, here is what I think what happened:

Peter sees JP freaking out over something. Being a woman in his inner social circle, his Protecc instinct activates. He takes JP's madness as face value truth, then comes to back her with whatever post rationalization he can come up with. After all, he believes that he can't truly know sexism, so if an anointed one with unique knowledge calls foul, then clearly there's a cause that he just can't see. So he backs her horse and stands fast, assuming that she is in the right. It is only after events unfold that he sees his horse foaming at the mouth. But by then, it is too late. So, he attempts to bow out with tact, because seriously stay away from that horse.

His true motives and beliefs remain hidden. For all I know, he is a radical, but his radicalism doesn't permit him to talk. But I can't help but see myself making a similar mistake once my Protecc switch is flipped.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Personally I don't blame Fries that much, too, for a few reasons. The Protecc instinct is a strong one. It takes an inordinate amount of soy to override that programming. Peter also probably didn't dig through the twitter profiles of all of his coworkers, so he wouldn't know her history. Peter is also on the left, so he probably also buys the line that discrimination is an incommunicable ethereal phenomena, and should be taken wholly on trust alone from marginalized groups. Or rather, anyone who doesn't look like himself. So, here is what I think what happened:

Peter sees JP freaking out over something. Being a woman in his inner social circle, his Protecc instinct activates. He takes JP's madness as face value truth, then comes to back her with whatever post rationalization he can come up with. After all, he believes that he can't truly know sexism, so if an anointed one with unique knowledge calls foul, then clearly there's a cause that he just can't see. So he backs her horse and stands fast, assuming that she is in the right. It is only after events unfold that he sees his horse foaming at the mouth. But by then, it is too late. So, he attempts to bow out with tact, because seriously stay away from that horse.

His true motives and beliefs remain hidden. For all I know, he is a radical, but his radicalism doesn't permit him to talk. But I can't help but see myself making a similar mistake once my Protecc switch is flipped.

He made mistake, but I don't think it's that bad with a direct dismissal.

Probably because he's a dude, if you fire Price but not him there is gonna be "trouble" from stupid ppl. It's just my guess though, not blaming anyone.

[morrolan.9608]

@Cyrin.1035 said:

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@Mike O Brien.4613 said:Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

Mo

That lady was over the line.

However, I think Mr. Fries, while I don't agree with his opinion, didn't deserve such punishment. I feel bad for him.

He chose a selfish, careless fool over his family, fans, company, and team. But please, feel bad for him. He deserves your sympathy even though he betrayed you and has no remorse about it.

How did he betray you? How did he even betray Deroir?

[Cyrin.1035]

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Personally I don't blame Fries that much, too, for a few reasons. The Protecc instinct is a strong one. It takes an inordinate amount of soy to override that programming. Peter also probably didn't dig through the twitter profiles of all of his coworkers, so he wouldn't know her history. Peter is also on the left, so he probably also buys the line that discrimination is an incommunicable ethereal phenomena, and should be taken wholly on trust alone from marginalized groups. Or rather, anyone who doesn't look like himself. So, here is what I think what happened:

Peter sees JP freaking out over something. Being a woman in his inner social circle, his Protecc instinct activates. He takes JP's madness as face value truth, then comes to back her with whatever post rationalization he can come up with. After all, he believes that he can't truly know sexism, so if an anointed one with unique knowledge calls foul, then clearly there's a cause that he just can't see. So he backs her horse and stands fast, assuming that she is in the right. It is only after events unfold that he sees his horse foaming at the mouth. But by then, it is too late. So, he attempts to bow out with tact, because seriously stay away from that horse.

His true motives and beliefs remain hidden. For all I know, he is a radical, but his radicalism doesn't permit him to talk. But I can't help but see myself making a similar mistake once my Protecc switch is flipped.

And yet that "Protecc switch" was meant for JP and not his family or the rest of the team. He knew what he was doing, he didn't back out, and after the result, he still didn't care.

[Cyrin.1035]

@morrolan.9608 said:

@Cyrin.1035 said:

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:

@Mike O Brien.4613 said:Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

Mo

That lady was over the line.

However, I think Mr. Fries, while I don't agree with his opinion, didn't deserve such punishment. I feel bad for him.

He chose a selfish, careless fool over his family, fans, company, and team. But please, feel bad for him. He deserves your sympathy even though he betrayed you and has no remorse about it.

How did he betray you? How did he even betray Deroir?

Analogy time.

You are a usual and known guest at a restaurant. You know one of the waiters there and they are kind to you. You chat about work and life sometimes and you have a decent employee/guest relationship. One day, a new waitress is working there and is now serving your table. You make a suggestion/request to her to bring extra napkins to the table since you use a lot. She goes off! Claims you think you know her job better than her. That she is the BEST and doesn't need to hear smack from anyone! Claims that you treat her this way because she is female. Responds COMPLETELY rude to you and insults you. Everyone in the restaurant sees it.

Then you see that one waiter, who you know, coming over. You expect him to calm her down and help the situation, but instead he joins in and insults you, berates you, embarrasses you, doesn't support you in any way and lets you down. He makes all the employees and the restaurant look bad. Then she and he blame it on you by calling you a sexist.

The manager fires them both. The waitress ends up blaming the restaurant, the entire company, claims only woman work there and do any work, and goes on vacation to treat herself. The waiter you once knew, goes on Twitter and pretends nothing happened. Gives no apology. Shows no remorse.

Did this waiter betray your trust and your relationship?

[Soa Cirri.6012]

@Cyrin.1035 said:You are a usual and known guest at a restaurant. You know one of the waiters thereThere's a couple of problems with this analogy.

1. Servers are a combination of CS and sales. Their job is to represent the establishment and cater to every whim and pleasure of the customer, and put up with their shit with a smile at all times. A better parallel to a server would be ANET customer service. A cook or chef would be a better parallel to a dev—the people who stand in the kitchen and make the food, but even then the analogy is pretty imperfect, because a cook is expected to address a customer's problem immediately (like delays, wrong orders, undercooked food, etc.), whereas bugs in games can take days, weeks, or even months to address. Writing devs are more like the people who design the menu and aren't even accessible even to customer complaints most of the time.
2. I've worked in a restaurant—and anyone who has can tell you that servers (both male and female) are often (not always) devas, even on the best of days. But working as a server, unfailingly pretending to be everyone's friend for 6-8 hours and tolerating all of the bullshit self-entitled pricks throw at you for not reading their minds, is incredibly stressful. Sooner or later, they will snap, and often at the worst times. There were servers who were rude to investors in the restaurant, personal friends of the owners who complained directly to those owner about the server's behavior.

The servers weren't ever immediately fired for something like that. Were they reprimanded? Sure. Did the customer get consolation in the form of some discount or free meal? You bet. But in the end it worked out because if a business is not made completely out of glass that will shatter at the tiniest fuck-up, it can weather many, many such incidents before it even causes so much as a blip in the finances. Ultimately, where I worked had a reputation for mediocre service—but it also had a reputation for great food. And that's what kept people coming back again and again, even with servers who were occasionally rude. Now, if the servers got rude and the food was crap, then there might have been cause to worry... but GW2 isn't crap, is it?But to get back to the reason server rudeness was tolerated, it was because the owners acknowledged something that seems to often be forgotten: we're all human. But it's easier to attack a caricature than a human being, and while I have seen a lot of caricatures invoked in this thread, I've seen very little empathy. And that's pretty depressing.

[Cyrin.1035]

@Soa Cirri.6012 said:

@"Cyrin.1035" said:You are a usual and known guest at a restaurant. You know one of the waiters thereThere's a couple of problems with this analogy.

1. Servers are a combination of CS and sales. Their job is to represent the establishment and cater to every whim and pleasure of the customer, and put up with their kitten with a smile at all times. A better parallel to a server would be ANET customer service. A cook or chef would be a better parallel to a dev—the people who stand in the kitchen and make the food, but even then the analogy is pretty imperfect, because a cook is expected to address a customer's problem immediately (like delays, wrong orders, undercooked food, etc.), whereas bugs in games can take days, weeks, or even months to address. Writing devs are more like the people who design the menu and aren't even accessible even to customer complaints most of the time.
2. I've worked in a restaurant—and anyone who has can tell you that servers (both male and female) are often (not always) devas, even on the best of days. But working as a server, unfailingly pretending to be everyone's friend for 6-8 hours and tolerating all of the kitten self-entitled kitten throw at you for not reading their minds, is incredibly stressful. Sooner or later, they will snap, and often at the worst times. There were servers who were rude to
   investors
   in the restaurant, personal friends of the owners who complained directly to those owner about the server's behavior.

The servers weren't ever immediately fired for something like that. Were they reprimanded? Sure. Did the customer get consolation in the form of some discount or free meal? You bet. But in the end it worked out because if a business is not made completely out of glass that will shatter at the tiniest kitten-up, it can weather many, many such incidents before it even causes so much as a blip in the finances. Ultimately, where I worked had a reputation for mediocre service—but it also had a reputation for great food. And that's what kept people coming back again and again, even with rude servers.But to get back to the reason server rudeness was tolerated, it was because the owners acknowledged something that seems to often be forgotten: we're all human. But it's easier to attack a caricature than a human being, and while I have seen a lot of caricatures invoked in this thread, I've seen very little empathy. And that's pretty depressing.

It's a very basic, quick analogy, Soa. Not meant to be a point-by-point identical comparison between the two professions. But I do like the insight you provided on the comparison.

It doesn't matter how rude customers are or what they go through. That's the job. What does matter, is what these two chose before, during, and after the incident.

You seriously think the restaurant should keep this new waitress who will continually damage everything including the customers without a care in the world? Or the waiter who chose this waitress over them?

JP and PF deserve as much empathy as they showed those two streamers. What's "depressing" or a more fitting word "disappointing", is people condoning and feeding the actions of people like JP.

[morrolan.9608]

@Cyrin.1035 said:

Did this waiter betray your trust and your relationship?

No because Derroir clearly has no relationship at all with Price or Fries, let alone other customer watching it. And the situation is not analogous anyway because neither Fries nor Price are in customer service positions.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Cyrin.1035 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Personally I don't blame Fries that much, too, for a few reasons. The Protecc instinct is a strong one. It takes an inordinate amount of soy to override that programming. Peter also probably didn't dig through the twitter profiles of all of his coworkers, so he wouldn't know her history. Peter is also on the left, so he probably also buys the line that discrimination is an incommunicable ethereal phenomena, and should be taken wholly on trust alone from marginalized groups. Or rather, anyone who doesn't look like himself. So, here is what I think what happened:

Peter sees JP freaking out over something. Being a woman in his inner social circle, his Protecc instinct activates. He takes JP's madness as face value truth, then comes to back her with whatever post rationalization he can come up with. After all, he believes that he can't truly know sexism, so if an anointed one with unique knowledge calls foul, then clearly there's a cause that he just can't see. So he backs her horse and stands fast, assuming that she is in the right. It is only after events unfold that he sees his horse foaming at the mouth. But by then, it is too late. So, he attempts to bow out with tact, because seriously stay away from that horse.

His true motives and beliefs remain hidden. For all I know, he is a radical, but his radicalism doesn't permit him to talk. But I can't help but see myself making a similar mistake once my Protecc switch is flipped.

And yet that "Protecc switch" was meant for JP and not his family or the rest of the team. He knew what he was doing, he didn't back out, and after the result, he still didn't care.

My hypothesis is that no, he didn't know what he was doing, he didn't see that he made a mistake until it was too late, and he's still terrified to say anything for fear of bringing further wrath down on his head.

[Cyrin.1035]

@morrolan.9608 said:

@Cyrin.1035 said:

Did this waiter betray your trust and your relationship?

No because Derroir clearly has no relationship at all with Price or Fries, let alone other customer watching it. And the situation is not analogous anyway because neither Fries nor Price are in customer service positions.

morrolan... XD

JP and PF represent the company. They develop, market, and have even interviewed in public for an MMORPG made for many players. The moment you are part of something like that, what you say and do matters when your words can be verified.

JP and PF absolutely have a relationship with Deroir and the playerbase. If you don't understand how that works, then you, unfortunately, do not understand the gravity of this situation.

[Cyrin.1035]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Cyrin.1035 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Personally I don't blame Fries that much, too, for a few reasons. The Protecc instinct is a strong one. It takes an inordinate amount of soy to override that programming. Peter also probably didn't dig through the twitter profiles of all of his coworkers, so he wouldn't know her history. Peter is also on the left, so he probably also buys the line that discrimination is an incommunicable ethereal phenomena, and should be taken wholly on trust alone from marginalized groups. Or rather, anyone who doesn't look like himself. So, here is what I think what happened:

Peter sees JP freaking out over something. Being a woman in his inner social circle, his Protecc instinct activates. He takes JP's madness as face value truth, then comes to back her with whatever post rationalization he can come up with. After all, he believes that he can't truly know sexism, so if an anointed one with unique knowledge calls foul, then clearly there's a cause that he just can't see. So he backs her horse and stands fast, assuming that she is in the right. It is only after events unfold that he sees his horse foaming at the mouth. But by then, it is too late. So, he attempts to bow out with tact, because seriously stay away from that horse.

His true motives and beliefs remain hidden. For all I know, he is a radical, but his radicalism doesn't permit him to talk. But I can't help but see myself making a similar mistake once my Protecc switch is flipped.

And yet that "Protecc switch" was meant for JP and not his family or the rest of the team. He knew what he was doing, he didn't back out, and after the result, he still didn't care.

My hypothesis is that no, he didn't know what he was doing, he didn't see that he made a mistake until it was too late, and he's still terrified to say anything for fear of bringing further wrath down on his head.

So, you are calling him unintelligent? I'd like to think he's a little smarter than that or at least 12 years at GW would have turned on a few lightbulbs of what is a bad idea for the company. If he didn't know he was making a huge mistake by supporting the insulting of a player, then that's even worse.

Right... still terrified of bringing further wrath down on his head... Jobless, disgraced, 12 years down the drain... but yeah he's very terrified to say anything that might actually help him... like... an apology? There will be no apology, because he isn't sorry. He made his choice. JP and PF don't need anymore excuses. They need to be recognized for what they chose.

[Soa Cirri.6012]

@"Cyrin.1035" said:You seriously think the restaurant should keep this new waitress who will continually damage everything including the customers without a care in the world? Or the waiter who chose this waitress over them?Well, I think it's preferable to use the devs=cooks analogy, even with its flaws. And in that case, I'd say: it depends.If a couple of cooks were on break and hung out outside the kitchen, and a regular customer wandered up and politely made a suggestion about the food, and the cooks felt impugned and flew off the handle at them, would either of them be fired?Did they come to work on time? Did they clean up after themselves? Did they do their prep properly and consistently? Did they do a good job as a cook? Did they fill orders quickly enough? Did they know the food? Did they mesh well with the rest of the team?If the answer was "no," to all of those questions, then yes, there's a decent chance they would be fired, but the blow-up would be more of a "final straw" or excuse to terminate than a decisive catalyst.But if one of those cooks was new, and the other one had been at the restaurant for over 12 years with nary a major complaint to that point,I can guarantee the more veteran cook wouldn't get more than a slap on the wrist at most.However, I think it's important to distinguish CS jobs from the "dev"-like jobs, because they require completely different skills. It's no coincidence that servers can be divas; their job is basically to be an actor. Holding a cook to the same function as a server, or a dev to the same function as CS, is like asking the director of photography to get in front of the camera and act. It's apples and oranges.

[Cyrin.1035]

@Soa Cirri.6012 said:

@"Cyrin.1035" said:You seriously think the restaurant should keep this new waitress who will continually damage everything including the customers without a care in the world? Or the waiter who chose this waitress over them?Well, I think it's preferable to use the devs=cooks analogy, even with its flaws. And in that case, I'd say: it depends.If a couple of cooks were on break and hung out outside the kitchen, and a regular customer wandered up and politely made a suggestion about the food, and the cooks felt impugned and flew off the handle at them, would either of them be fired?Did they come to work on time? Did they clean up after themselves? Did they do their prep properly and consistently? Did they do a good job as a cook? Did they fill orders quickly enough? Did they know the food? Did they mesh well with the rest of the team?If the answer was "no," to all of those questions, then yes, there's a decent chance they would be fired, but the blow-up would be more of a "final straw" or excuse to terminate than a decisive catalyst.But if one of those cooks was new, and the other one had been at the restaurant for over 12 years with nary a major complaint to that point,I can guarantee the more veteran cook wouldn't get more than a slap on the wrist at most.However, I think it's important to distinguish CS jobs from the "dev"-like jobs, because they require completely different skills. It's no coincidence that servers can be divas; their job is basically to be an

actor

. Holding a cook to the same function as a server, or a dev to the same function as CS, is like asking the director of photography to get in

front

of the camera and act. It's apples and oranges.

The analogy was meant to outline the betrayal aspect, but in the case of firing, that's where the analogy can be different. As you said, it depends. It depends on the class and reputation of the restaurant and the gaming company.

Overall, what matters is if those two employees are now a liability. Does the company have to worry about them? For JP, the answer is clear. She should not have been hired in the first place - as she pointed out how they overlooked her behavior and ways. As for PF, for someone to do what he did given all the time he had there and having known better, he clearly made a choice, and a choice someone like him makes is going to be one he sticks by. Therefore, it was likely clear to Mo and the rest that he would still be a liability to the company and needed to go like JP.

[morrolan.9608]

@Cyrin.1035 said:

@morrolan.9608 said:

@Cyrin.1035 said:

Did this waiter betray your trust and your relationship?

No because Derroir clearly has no relationship at all with Price or Fries, let alone other customer watching it. And the situation is not analogous anyway because neither Fries nor Price are in customer service positions.

morrolan... XD

JP and PF represent the company. They develop, market, and have even interviewed in public for an MMORPG made for many players. The moment you are part of something like that, what you say and do matters when your words can be verified.

JP and PF absolutely have a relationship with Deroir and the playerbase. If you don't understand how that works, then you, unfortunately, do not understand the gravity of this situation.

Well many in the industry don't believe that, they aren't making games for you and I they are essentially making something akin to art and to believe that they should be beholden to customers when not in customer facing roles is simply entitlement. Even if you believe they do they were rude to a customer who, when you parse his words, was being condescending to her, it doesn't warrant sacking.

[Loli Ruri.8307]

@morrolan.9608 said:

@Cyrin.1035 said:

@morrolan.9608 said:

@Cyrin.1035 said:

Did this waiter betray your trust and your relationship?

No because Derroir clearly has no relationship at all with Price or Fries, let alone other customer watching it. And the situation is not analogous anyway because neither Fries nor Price are in customer service positions.

morrolan... XD

JP and PF represent the company. They develop, market, and have even interviewed in public for an MMORPG made for many players. The moment you are part of something like that, what you say and do matters when your words can be verified.

JP and PF absolutely have a relationship with Deroir and the playerbase. If you don't understand how that works, then you, unfortunately, do not understand the gravity of this situation.

Well many in the industry don't believe that, they aren't making games for you and I they are essentially making something akin to art and to believe that they should be beholden to customers when not in customer facing roles is simply entitlement. Even if you believe they do they were rude to a customer who, when you parse his words, was being condescending to her, it doesn't warrant sacking.

Most games in the Industry are not successful either.

You know what, I do understand the idea of making things for yourself. Of course it also needs to be in the interest of the consumers, or else you have a product that will flop. But if you do make it big, one thing you need to look at is, is this product a niche, or is it a mainstream product? Making something new is risky, and may not necessarily be what customers are asking for, because it's new. But given that in this age and day, everything has been done before, the most you can do is hope to reach more customers with what they want, with as many players playing as possible, with a business model that reaps in the most profits to keep the books happy.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@morrolan.9608 said:

@Cyrin.1035 said:

@morrolan.9608 said:

@Cyrin.1035 said:

Did this waiter betray your trust and your relationship?

No because Derroir clearly has no relationship at all with Price or Fries, let alone other customer watching it. And the situation is not analogous anyway because neither Fries nor Price are in customer service positions.

morrolan... XD

JP and PF represent the company. They develop, market, and have even interviewed in public for an MMORPG made for many players. The moment you are part of something like that, what you say and do matters when your words can be verified.

JP and PF absolutely have a relationship with Deroir and the playerbase. If you don't understand how that works, then you, unfortunately, do not understand the gravity of this situation.

Well many in the industry don't believe that, they aren't making games for you and I they are essentially making something akin to art and to believe that they should be beholden to customers when not in customer facing roles is simply entitlement. Even if you believe they do they were rude to a customer who, when you parse his words, was being condescending to her, it doesn't warrant sacking.

If you really believe that Deroir was being condescending then as a professional, boasting all that experience, within a role and industry that see's everything you do put front and centre for critique by your peers and your customers.. you could of, no you should of been able to rise above it and either act like a professional or simply said nothing at all... JP is fearless at stating she will instablock any rando as*hat who tries to do the same, tries to critique, tries to have an opinion other than her own.. but strangely she forgot that same tool was available to her when someone who dares to have a slight disagreement is in yours and hers mind, being condescending.. or is this just some selective double standard at play for a reason.... I say yes and call BS on the condescending paraphrase malarkey.. there was nothing of the sort.You don't praise someone you have publicly admitted you hold in such high regards to the point of considering a god within their work, then at the first opportunity (not even 24hrs later) set about public belittling that same god. No sorry that is just made up to pave the way for a narrative that simply never existed but it could create and angle in which JP could exploit to do what she craves most.. create controversy. It is who she is, it is what she does.She acts like a jerk, accuses who she likes, where she likes and for what ever she likes safe in the knowledge that once the controversy ignites and the topic is blown out of all proportions, she can throw out the victim card in the name of cause that she purports to support whilst becoming the very thing those causes are striving to put an end to every day.There is only so many times you can cry wolf before your credibility starts to tarnish, hopefully this is one such moment for JP, that's why she is doubling down to try and keep herself in the limelight and keep herself relevant for as long as she can in the hope others will rally to her defence.Good luck to them all who choose to sail with her as I believe she thinks she is so superheated with conviction every ice berg will melt in front of her now... time will tell.At least ANET saw that this person is bad for business and made the right call imo.

[Mysty Meadows.1425]

This thread is like a train with square wheels, it's not going anywhere. But maybe it helps illustrate a point, that we have come a long way as a species, and still have a long way to go.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@"morrolan.9608" said:

Well many in the industry don't believe that, they aren't making games for you and I they are essentially making something akin to art and to believe that they should be beholden to customers when not in customer facing roles is simply entitlement. Even if you believe they do they were rude to a customer who, when you parse his words, was being condescending to her, it doesn't warrant sacking.

Have you parsed Deroir's initial statement? You could share your analysis, then? But wait, let me guess, Are you going to say that you don't have to, that "anyone" should be able to see the condescension as others have done in this thread? If so, sorry, that doesn't cut it. You're issuing a conclusion using a word that means you have performed an analysis of his words and determined their syntactic role. I defy you to show condescension based on his syntax. For that matter, go ahead and use any other form of analysis you care to drum up to prove your conclusion.

[MrGhosty.4296]

It's sad to me that two devs who were doing good work got the sack, what makes that even more sad is that it could have been avoided. I don't think JP and Fries were fired for blowing up at a handful of people, I feel like they pushed the issue further by the claims of "I don't have to pretend to like you in my off clock hours". Now most people can tell she was specifically meaning the trolls (of which there are many dogpiling into this mess) but once something is said on the internet, it never goes away and Anet would be forced to deal with, in perpetuity, the blanket statement of "we just pretend to like you". I feel like that is where the conversation went beyond the pale and forced Anet's hand.

You can empathize with someone who just lost their job, and that's what we should be doing at this point. I respect Anet for doing what they have to and will continue to support them, but further demonizing or celebrating price and fries' firings doesn't do anything. While I def. feel that her reaction to Deroir was out of line, we should also look at what sort of things led up to that and show some compassion. I don't recall where I picked this up, but a saying I've quite liked comes to mind here, "you don't make peace with your friends". We don't have to like JP, and I think most sensible folks can't condone the reaction and subsequent aggressive conversation that followed, but we should show them the respect that all people are deserving of. Every time someone posts cheering the action, we as a community look like the frothy mouthed mob we are unfairly being painted as. We should take this opportunity to praise all the work Anet does and show our support to the devs that are still working hard to give us something that has made us all so passionate.

(I'm not attacking anyone in particular here, I would just like to see us put this energy to better use)

[Mysty Meadows.1425]

After much consideration, the fault in my opinion, is two fold. Poor judgement in responses, and poor judgement in wanting devs to interact. They are there to do a job. They can post on the forums via the CM. There should always be a buffer. They should always use a persona at work. If we all think about it and are honest with ourselves, we want an engaging game, compelling storyline, and fullfilling gameplay. We do not need to talk to the teams, they have work to do. The social media regs should prohibit any mention of where they work, on personal social media sites. Then you have grounds for termination of employees that ignore those rules. JP/PF are in the wind. Going forward my unrequested suggestion to Anet is focus on the game, and only the game. Like Jeff Strain a former founder of Anet said "Don't worry about what everyone else is doing. Make your game the best it can be".