Is there a point to Scourge anymore?

[Dadnir.5038]

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:If Scourge didn't have a 'point', people wouldn't play it ... EVEN if that point is "I like playing Scourge". If people think Scourge doesn't 'do' anything, they have 8 other classes to choose from if performance is their only concern. Careful with that PVP though ... people are way smarter than a raid boss.

Well, you forgot to count specializations there which make 26 things to play other than scourge. As for whether people are smarter in PvP than mobs are, if you read the forum, either players aren't good (which seem to concern most of the population) or they are demigods that you can't even touch and play broken op professions.

Gameplay in this game's pvp is WAY more difficult than PvE. PvE is sufficient with learning obvious telegraphed and usually timed (and most of them ignorable ...) boss moves which will be outhealed by a druid and mostly avoided by standing on tag. As far as damage goes, you can learn a set rotation that doesn't change.

In PvP you need to know your role, the enemies roles, understand their builds, see which skills they're using, know how to position and counter them appropriately to be able to win. This implies knowing the classes, but also their roles and how to generally move on conquest. This further implies knowing matchups and how to play them. If they do X, how do you counter? This involves movements on the map, near the node, kiting, but also skill usage and which skills to dodge. At higher levels it also involves mindgames with skills being cancelled and so forth.

Most players don't get anywhere near this level. They barely grasp the very basics : which of their skills do what and which (big) skills of the enemy they should avoid. Thinking about rotations and subtle map movements / skill usage on top of that? Yeah not going to happen. Hell sub plat players can't regroup in soloQ pretty much ever...

The skill difference is just way too large; and the meta is still decided by those high end players. Not by the players who use skills without really knowing why they're doing what they're doing. Watch a high end necro main pvp. You'll see them kite and survive significantly longer than any of your pugs in any of your games. You'll see them win fights from low HP while kiting because players are greeding to kill them. You'll see them carelessly mow through others, many of which are close to that "immortal" status as soon as you put them in gold games. Because the truth is, if you use your corrupts and pressure skills appropriately while kiting necro pressure is really high. It just needs to not get outnumbered; and in some cases a support.

You can say "broken op professions" but that ... includes scourge. The high-end meta isn't even that bad. Mirage, holo, spellbreaker, fb, rev, scourge, thief, ranger all have viable / strong builds. The only class which genuinely struggles is ele / weaver. Put those good players on a class they're comfortable with and even on scourge they'll be a demigod. Sure you can 3v1 him and cc-lock to a point where he can't do much... But then you're still pretty likely to lose.

The meta is decided by players who know how to counter what; not by players who don't understand the meta. Most players in GW2 don't have balance issues; especially in PvP. They just have L2P issues.

Not sure if you are arguing against what I wrote or if you are confirming my point. ;)

[Etheri.5406]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:If Scourge didn't have a 'point', people wouldn't play it ... EVEN if that point is "I like playing Scourge". If people think Scourge doesn't 'do' anything, they have 8 other classes to choose from if performance is their only concern. Careful with that PVP though ... people are way smarter than a raid boss.

Well, you forgot to count specializations there which make 26 things to play other than scourge. As for whether people are smarter in PvP than mobs are, if you read the forum, either players aren't good (which seem to concern most of the population) or they are demigods that you can't even touch and play broken op professions.

Gameplay in this game's pvp is WAY more difficult than PvE. PvE is sufficient with learning obvious telegraphed and usually timed (and most of them ignorable ...) boss moves which will be outhealed by a druid and mostly avoided by standing on tag. As far as damage goes, you can learn a set rotation that doesn't change.

In PvP you need to know your role, the enemies roles, understand their builds, see which skills they're using, know how to position and counter them appropriately to be able to win. This implies knowing the classes, but also their roles and how to generally move on conquest. This further implies knowing matchups and how to play them. If they do X, how do you counter? This involves movements on the map, near the node, kiting, but also skill usage and which skills to dodge. At higher levels it also involves mindgames with skills being cancelled and so forth.

Most players don't get anywhere near this level. They barely grasp the very basics : which of their skills do what and which (big) skills of the enemy they should avoid. Thinking about rotations and subtle map movements / skill usage on top of that? Yeah not going to happen. Hell sub plat players can't regroup in soloQ pretty much ever...

The skill difference is just way too large; and the meta is still decided by those high end players. Not by the players who use skills without really knowing why they're doing what they're doing. Watch a high end necro main pvp. You'll see them kite and survive significantly longer than any of your pugs in any of your games. You'll see them win fights from low HP while kiting because players are greeding to kill them. You'll see them carelessly mow through others, many of which are close to that "immortal" status as soon as you put them in gold games. Because the truth is, if you use your corrupts and pressure skills appropriately while kiting necro pressure is really high. It just needs to not get outnumbered; and in some cases a support.

You can say "broken op professions" but that ... includes scourge. The high-end meta isn't even that bad. Mirage, holo, spellbreaker, fb, rev, scourge, thief, ranger all have viable / strong builds. The only class which genuinely struggles is ele / weaver. Put those good players on a class they're comfortable with and even on scourge they'll be a demigod. Sure you can 3v1 him and cc-lock to a point where he can't do much... But then you're still pretty likely to lose.

The meta is decided by players who know how to counter what; not by players who don't understand the meta. Most players in GW2 don't have balance issues; especially in PvP. They just have L2P issues.

Not sure if you are arguing against what I wrote or if you are confirming my point. ;)

I'm confirming your point, but stating most classes have some sort of "OP" build. A meta build, one might say. And most of the time, these builds only work because the players are capable of playing them. That's the real difference between a player in silver playing "meta" builds and a legendary player playing meta builds.

But the forums is all silver players crying how one thing is OP and their class isn't, without even understanding how the game is played.

[X T D.6458]

@X T D.6458 said:Can you please redesign this spec now? This spec was made to fill specific roles, condi spec/boon corruption/area control etc. But after so many nerfs is there even a point to it? Boon corruption nerfed, damage nerfed, survivability nerfed, in addition to necromancers lack of any sustain and mobility skills. You create a spec which encourages us to play in a specific way, then you nerf the hell out of it. Seriously just redesign the entire spec at this point.

Which game mode are you referring to?

I use my Necro almost exclusively for WvW, but that is not the point of this thread, which btw I never thought would get this many posts. I posted it due in part to increasing frustration with what I see as misguided attempts at balancing by the devs. My point wasnt that Scourge is useless, its that the devs would rather avoid looking at the actual issues with the spec which is the mechanics of it, and are simply nerfing numbers from skills and traits. This lazy approach just nerfs all different kinds of builds regardless of stats. I want to see Scourge fill a unique role, not just be another aoe spammer. My problem with Scourge has always been the need to Shade spam to kill anything, none of the skills are particularly strong enough to kill anything on their own, this is the fundamental balance issue with Scourge imo.

[Dace.8173]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@EdDreath.2508 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@EdDreath.2508 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.

The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

It is a big deal if all they can offer is dps and even that is bottom.

Except that's not the case in PvP. Scourge is still a good crowd control profession due to its ability to spam AOE fields of condition doom. Which is how I see them used all the time in PvP. They may not be doing the highest amount of dps but they'll sit on a cap and spam fields that hinder the opposing team while their teammates mop them up. The argument that Scourge is weak and therefore unplayable does not fly in PvP conversations. You can build that argument for PvE end game content and I might agree with you to some extent (and as our previous conversations have indicated we actually do have points of agreement on the matter) but it simply does not fly if we are discussing PvP or even WvW.

You can't doom and gloom Scourge for PvP like you can for PvE.

Im not sure about the diminishing number of scourge player is only because of those bandwagoners leaving the class but as a main scourge myself, the nerfs are huge that playing other classes seems to work better for me. Not saying no one should ever play scourge as well because thats absurd. Its just the nerfs reduced the class towards mediocrity that other class is a better choice.The last of scourge condition spam ability which is manifest shade shade was nerfed in latest balance patch in addition to dhummfire. Scourge can still does what its best which is AoE area denial but with this ever 'target the necro' meta in addition to incompetent team in ranked pvp, your AoEs are wasted and get swarmed while waiting for cooldown. Of course, this is all based on personal skills, team or situations but you naturally want to pick the class that does not rely on team too much unless you play support build.Theres no doom and gloom of no one picking up scourge ever just because of these nerfs but in pvp its natural to pick a class that does similar things but better. In the case of scourge vs reaper, reaper does better at the moment.

Yeah but I'm not really addressing you when I speak of doom and gloom. You seem to be one of the rare few players who actually doesn't worse case scenario the situation. If you are going to argue that Reaper does similar things but better then it stands to reason that a person could reasonably still find Scourge to be good enough for them. And there being a better choice is also a far cry from the doom and gloom of there being no point to playing Scourge. People go into PvP all the time with mediocre builds since that build may be what they enjoy and GW2 PvP isn't exactly as competitive as other games PvP scene. Being as how you still get something just for showing up there is plenty of reason to play the profession for most people. Only the most competitive of players will truly worry about these things but I honestly don't think the majority of people entering PvP are highly competitive folks.

Personally, I think most of the doom and gloom just assumes that people don't play for fun. Then again I also tend to have a broader scope on what I consider fun in a game.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@EdDreath.2508 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.

The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

It is a big deal if all they can offer is dps and even that is bottom.

Except that's not the case in PvP. Scourge is still a good crowd control profession due to its ability to spam AOE fields of condition doom. Which is how I see them used all the time in PvP. They may not be doing the highest amount of dps but they'll sit on a cap and spam fields that hinder the opposing team while their teammates mop them up. The argument that Scourge is weak and therefore unplayable does not fly in PvP conversations. You can build that argument for PvE end game content and I might agree with you to some extent (and as our previous conversations have indicated we actually do have points of agreement on the matter) but it simply does not fly if we are discussing PvP or even WvW.

You can't doom and gloom Scourge for PvP like you can for PvE.

Just to ask. What rank are you in PvP?

Silver.

See and that's the problem. Even gold players aren't good.Maybe you rank isn't your actual rank, because you keep getting bad teams, but like 95% under platinum rank don't have a clue about the game and the classes, what they are capable of and what their weaknesses are and how they can counter these classes, with the class they play

And that changes things how? If 95% off the people below platinum rank don't understand the game or the profession but are still having fun then the overwhelming majority of the people who play the profession are happy with how it is (the number of folks who are at platinum level will be way smaller than the ones at plat). You've just completely undermined your position about the profession needing to be changed. The people who get the profession wrong are just as valid as the people who get it right. And the people who get it right or wrong is a fairly subjective thing.

This game isn't about the 5% who supposedly get things right. Your response comes off as fairly elitist.

As for my rank being my actual rank or not ....eeeeehhhhh I'm not really invested in my skill rank. I play for fun. I have good games where I do awesome. I have bad games where I do poorly. I have good teams and I have bad teams. Since my aim is not to be the best of the best of the best I just do it for fun.

[Axl.8924]

@Dace.8173 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@EdDreath.2508 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@EdDreath.2508 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.

The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

It is a big deal if all they can offer is dps and even that is bottom.

Except that's not the case in PvP. Scourge is still a good crowd control profession due to its ability to spam AOE fields of condition doom. Which is how I see them used all the time in PvP. They may not be doing the highest amount of dps but they'll sit on a cap and spam fields that hinder the opposing team while their teammates mop them up. The argument that Scourge is weak and therefore unplayable does not fly in PvP conversations. You can build that argument for PvE end game content and I might agree with you to some extent (and as our previous conversations have indicated we actually do have points of agreement on the matter) but it simply does not fly if we are discussing PvP or even WvW.

You can't doom and gloom Scourge for PvP like you can for PvE.

Im not sure about the diminishing number of scourge player is only because of those bandwagoners leaving the class but as a main scourge myself, the nerfs are huge that playing other classes seems to work better for me. Not saying no one should ever play scourge as well because thats absurd. Its just the nerfs reduced the class towards mediocrity that other class is a better choice.The last of scourge condition spam ability which is manifest shade shade was nerfed in latest balance patch in addition to dhummfire. Scourge can still does what its best which is AoE area denial but with this ever 'target the necro' meta in addition to incompetent team in ranked pvp, your AoEs are wasted and get swarmed while waiting for cooldown. Of course, this is all based on personal skills, team or situations but you naturally want to pick the class that does not rely on team too much unless you play support build.Theres no doom and gloom of no one picking up scourge ever just because of these nerfs but in pvp its natural to pick a class that does similar things but better. In the case of scourge vs reaper, reaper does better at the moment.

Yeah but I'm not really addressing you when I speak of doom and gloom. You seem to be one of the rare few players who actually doesn't worse case scenario the situation. If you are going to argue that Reaper does similar things but better then it stands to reason that a person could reasonably still find Scourge to be good enough for them. And there being a better choice is also a far cry from the doom and gloom of there being no point to playing Scourge. People go into PvP all the time with mediocre builds since that build may be what they enjoy and GW2 PvP isn't exactly as competitive as other games PvP scene. Being as how you still get something just for showing up there is plenty of reason to play the profession for most people. Only the most competitive of players will truly worry about these things but I honestly don't think the majority of people entering PvP are highly competitive folks.

Personally, I think most of the doom and gloom just assumes that people don't play for fun. Then again I also tend to have a broader scope on what I consider fun in a game.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@EdDreath.2508 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.

The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

It is a big deal if all they can offer is dps and even that is bottom.

Except that's not the case in PvP. Scourge is still a good crowd control profession due to its ability to spam AOE fields of condition doom. Which is how I see them used all the time in PvP. They may not be doing the highest amount of dps but they'll sit on a cap and spam fields that hinder the opposing team while their teammates mop them up. The argument that Scourge is weak and therefore unplayable does not fly in PvP conversations. You can build that argument for PvE end game content and I might agree with you to some extent (and as our previous conversations have indicated we actually do have points of agreement on the matter) but it simply does not fly if we are discussing PvP or even WvW.

You can't doom and gloom Scourge for PvP like you can for PvE.

Just to ask. What rank are you in PvP?

Silver.

See and that's the problem. Even gold players aren't good.Maybe you rank isn't your actual rank, because you keep getting bad teams, but like 95% under platinum rank don't have a clue about the game and the classes, what they are capable of and what their weaknesses are and how they can counter these classes, with the class they play

And that changes things how? If 95% off the people below platinum rank don't understand the game or the profession but are still having fun then the overwhelming majority of the people who play the profession are happy with how it is (the number of folks who are at platinum level will be way smaller than the ones at plat). You've just completely undermined your position about the profession needing to be changed. The people who get the profession wrong are just as valid as the people who get it right. And the people who get it right or wrong is a fairly subjective thing.

This game isn't about the 5% who supposedly get things right. Your response comes off as fairly elitist.

As for my rank being my actual rank or not ....eeeeehhhhh I'm not really invested in my skill rank. I play for fun. I have good games where I do awesome. I have bad games where I do poorly. I have good teams and I have bad teams. Since my aim is not to be the best of the best of the best I just do it for fun.

I'm going to ask you something dace:How do you expect a noob rogue for instance to get far? he won't, so i think that whole thing of people in gold being completely noobs is dumb.Clearly people in gold have a lot more knowledge of the game and how to play than given credit for.

For instance the really bad players stand in the circles of necro and die, or let rogues escape and +1 them and don't know how to avoid their attacks, or make no attempt at understanding mesmers abilities to counter them.

A player who's made it to gold has at least quite a bit of semblance, as he's put effort.

[Dace.8173]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@EdDreath.2508 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@EdDreath.2508 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.

The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

It is a big deal if all they can offer is dps and even that is bottom.

Except that's not the case in PvP. Scourge is still a good crowd control profession due to its ability to spam AOE fields of condition doom. Which is how I see them used all the time in PvP. They may not be doing the highest amount of dps but they'll sit on a cap and spam fields that hinder the opposing team while their teammates mop them up. The argument that Scourge is weak and therefore unplayable does not fly in PvP conversations. You can build that argument for PvE end game content and I might agree with you to some extent (and as our previous conversations have indicated we actually do have points of agreement on the matter) but it simply does not fly if we are discussing PvP or even WvW.

You can't doom and gloom Scourge for PvP like you can for PvE.

Im not sure about the diminishing number of scourge player is only because of those bandwagoners leaving the class but as a main scourge myself, the nerfs are huge that playing other classes seems to work better for me. Not saying no one should ever play scourge as well because thats absurd. Its just the nerfs reduced the class towards mediocrity that other class is a better choice.The last of scourge condition spam ability which is manifest shade shade was nerfed in latest balance patch in addition to dhummfire. Scourge can still does what its best which is AoE area denial but with this ever 'target the necro' meta in addition to incompetent team in ranked pvp, your AoEs are wasted and get swarmed while waiting for cooldown. Of course, this is all based on personal skills, team or situations but you naturally want to pick the class that does not rely on team too much unless you play support build.Theres no doom and gloom of no one picking up scourge ever just because of these nerfs but in pvp its natural to pick a class that does similar things but better. In the case of scourge vs reaper, reaper does better at the moment.

Yeah but I'm not really addressing you when I speak of doom and gloom. You seem to be one of the rare few players who actually doesn't worse case scenario the situation. If you are going to argue that Reaper does similar things but better then it stands to reason that a person could reasonably still find Scourge to be good enough for them. And there being a better choice is also a far cry from the doom and gloom of there being no point to playing Scourge. People go into PvP all the time with mediocre builds since that build may be what they enjoy and GW2 PvP isn't exactly as competitive as other games PvP scene. Being as how you still get something just for showing up there is plenty of reason to play the profession for most people. Only the most competitive of players will truly worry about these things but I honestly don't think the majority of people entering PvP are highly competitive folks.

Personally, I think most of the doom and gloom just assumes that people don't play for fun. Then again I also tend to have a broader scope on what I consider fun in a game.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@EdDreath.2508 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.

The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

It is a big deal if all they can offer is dps and even that is bottom.

Except that's not the case in PvP. Scourge is still a good crowd control profession due to its ability to spam AOE fields of condition doom. Which is how I see them used all the time in PvP. They may not be doing the highest amount of dps but they'll sit on a cap and spam fields that hinder the opposing team while their teammates mop them up. The argument that Scourge is weak and therefore unplayable does not fly in PvP conversations. You can build that argument for PvE end game content and I might agree with you to some extent (and as our previous conversations have indicated we actually do have points of agreement on the matter) but it simply does not fly if we are discussing PvP or even WvW.

You can't doom and gloom Scourge for PvP like you can for PvE.

Just to ask. What rank are you in PvP?

Silver.

See and that's the problem. Even gold players aren't good.Maybe you rank isn't your actual rank, because you keep getting bad teams, but like 95% under platinum rank don't have a clue about the game and the classes, what they are capable of and what their weaknesses are and how they can counter these classes, with the class they play

And that changes things how? If 95% off the people below platinum rank don't understand the game or the profession but are still having fun then the overwhelming majority of the people who play the profession are happy with how it is (the number of folks who are at platinum level will be way smaller than the ones at plat). You've just completely undermined your position about the profession needing to be changed. The people who get the profession wrong are just as valid as the people who get it right. And the people who get it right or wrong is a fairly subjective thing.

This game isn't about the 5% who supposedly get things right. Your response comes off as fairly elitist.

As for my rank being my actual rank or not ....eeeeehhhhh I'm not really invested in my skill rank. I play for fun. I have good games where I do awesome. I have bad games where I do poorly. I have good teams and I have bad teams. Since my aim is not to be the best of the best of the best I just do it for fun.

I'm going to ask you something dace:How do you expect a noob rogue for instance to get far? he won't, so i think that whole thing of people in gold being completely noobs is dumb.Clearly people in gold have a lot more knowledge of the game and how to play than given credit for.

For instance the really bad players stand in the circles of necro and die, or let rogues escape and +1 them and don't know how to avoid their attacks, or make no attempt at understanding mesmers abilities to counter them.

A player who's made it to gold has at least quite a bit of semblance, as he's put effort.

Ok look, it's one thing to say that some players need to learn to play the game. I think it is very important to identify L2P issues and address them properly. It's another matter to declare that 95% of the population below plat just don't get the game or how to play. A statement like that is broad and elitist. Just because you're not in the magical 5% doesn't mean you don't get the game or the profession you're playing or how it works. That would be like me saying "the people who complain about Necromancer's performance in PvE just don't understand how to make Necromancer work since the folks in PvP/WvW run circles around players." Being as how there is a lot more to your PvP rank than pure player skill (such as the quality of your team) it's a bit shortsighted and elitist to claim that most of those people simply just don't get it.

I'm down for talking about what players can do to improve their skill level. I'm not really down for scapegoating 95% of the players at a certain level as why something is an issue. If you can't make your case about Necromancer without insulting the players who play the profession then I think you've run out of useful things to add to the conversation.

[Axl.8924]

For me a lot of battles in battleground unrated i die because nobody helps and i get swarmed or kited by thieves on necro and can't survive or rangers kiting and ranging me out of range and my inability to survive alone.

I feel like on unrated there is a lot less co operation and a lot more zerging, and you end up with people trying to kill.

I understand at times that you got to move but i feel like its harder outside of voice chat.Necro is just less fun in spvp than thief, and while thief is very frustrating, its very rewarding.

[Egorum.9506]

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@EdDreath.2508 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@EdDreath.2508 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@"nekretaal.6485" said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.

The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

It is a big deal if all they can offer is dps and even that is bottom.

Except that's not the case in PvP. Scourge is still a good crowd control profession due to its ability to spam AOE fields of condition doom. Which is how I see them used all the time in PvP. They may not be doing the highest amount of dps but they'll sit on a cap and spam fields that hinder the opposing team while their teammates mop them up. The argument that Scourge is weak and therefore unplayable does not fly in PvP conversations. You can build that argument for PvE end game content and I might agree with you to some extent (and as our previous conversations have indicated we actually do have points of agreement on the matter) but it simply does not fly if we are discussing PvP or even WvW.

You can't doom and gloom Scourge for PvP like you can for PvE.

Im not sure about the diminishing number of scourge player is only because of those bandwagoners leaving the class but as a main scourge myself, the nerfs are huge that playing other classes seems to work better for me. Not saying no one should ever play scourge as well because thats absurd. Its just the nerfs reduced the class towards mediocrity that other class is a better choice.The last of scourge condition spam ability which is manifest shade shade was nerfed in latest balance patch in addition to dhummfire. Scourge can still does what its best which is AoE area denial but with this ever 'target the necro' meta in addition to incompetent team in ranked pvp, your AoEs are wasted and get swarmed while waiting for cooldown. Of course, this is all based on personal skills, team or situations but you naturally want to pick the class that does not rely on team too much unless you play support build.Theres no doom and gloom of no one picking up scourge ever just because of these nerfs but in pvp its natural to pick a class that does similar things but better. In the case of scourge vs reaper, reaper does better at the moment.

I don't know. In wvw i can even facetank most scourges with my reaper. Some need a little bit of dodging.

It's ridiculous how weak scourge has gotten, that it doesn't even punish you for standing inside of desert shroud radius

Not a single good guild runs reaper. All of them run several scourges. Reaper is competitive with scourge on the small scale, i.e. 1v1 and maybe 2v2. The moment you get groups reaper falls off pretty hard compared to scourge. As per usual you don't know what you're talking about.

Stating other players don't have the right to speak because they don't know the meta and aren't skilled; while constantly showing you don't grasp the meta's you're talking about. Perhaps you should take your own advise and stick to your expertise, which is definitely not WvW ;)

Condi scourge has been gutted and celestial hits like a limp dick. So really it's comparing power scourge to power reaper, where reaper comes out the clear winner. Far tankier, better damage, and the damage is localized for better down generation. I'm holding competitive damage even while commanding on one running a fairly tanky build.

The only thing power scourge brings over reaper is a pitiful amount of barrier and 4 condi corrupting manifest shades per minute.

The gutting of scourge and toning down of Herald and weaver have made push comps viable again, where reaper shines hard.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:If Scourge didn't have a 'point', people wouldn't play it ... EVEN if that point is "I like playing Scourge". If people think Scourge doesn't 'do' anything, they have 8 other classes to choose from if performance is their only concern. Careful with that PVP though ... people are way smarter than a raid boss.

Well, you forgot to count specializations there which make 26 things to play other than scourge. As for whether people are smarter in PvP than mobs are, if you read the forum, either players aren't good (which seem to concern most of the population) or they are demigods that you can't even touch and play broken op professions.

Gameplay in this game's pvp is WAY more difficult than PvE. PvE is sufficient with learning obvious telegraphed and usually timed (and most of them ignorable ...) boss moves which will be outhealed by a druid and mostly avoided by standing on tag. As far as damage goes, you can learn a set rotation that doesn't change.

In PvP you need to know your role, the enemies roles, understand their builds, see which skills they're using, know how to position and counter them appropriately to be able to win. This implies knowing the classes, but also their roles and how to generally move on conquest. This further implies knowing matchups and how to play them. If they do X, how do you counter? This involves movements on the map, near the node, kiting, but also skill usage and which skills to dodge. At higher levels it also involves mindgames with skills being cancelled and so forth.

Most players don't get anywhere near this level. They barely grasp the very basics : which of their skills do what and which (big) skills of the enemy they should avoid. Thinking about rotations and subtle map movements / skill usage on top of that? Yeah not going to happen. Hell sub plat players can't regroup in soloQ pretty much ever...

The skill difference is just way too large; and the meta is still decided by those high end players. Not by the players who use skills without really knowing why they're doing what they're doing. Watch a high end necro main pvp. You'll see them kite and survive significantly longer than any of your pugs in any of your games. You'll see them win fights from low HP while kiting because players are greeding to kill them. You'll see them carelessly mow through others, many of which are close to that "immortal" status as soon as you put them in gold games. Because the truth is, if you use your corrupts and pressure skills appropriately while kiting necro pressure is really high. It just needs to not get outnumbered; and in some cases a support.

You can say "broken op professions" but that ... includes scourge. The high-end meta isn't even that bad. Mirage, holo, spellbreaker, fb, rev, scourge, thief, ranger all have viable / strong builds. The only class which genuinely struggles is ele / weaver. Put those good players on a class they're comfortable with and even on scourge they'll be a demigod. Sure you can 3v1 him and cc-lock to a point where he can't do much... But then you're still pretty likely to lose.

The meta is decided by players who know how to counter what; not by players who don't understand the meta. Most players in GW2 don't have balance issues; especially in PvP. They just have L2P issues.

Well said

[Nimon.7840]

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@EdDreath.2508 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@EdDreath.2508 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.

The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

It is a big deal if all they can offer is dps and even that is bottom.

Except that's not the case in PvP. Scourge is still a good crowd control profession due to its ability to spam AOE fields of condition doom. Which is how I see them used all the time in PvP. They may not be doing the highest amount of dps but they'll sit on a cap and spam fields that hinder the opposing team while their teammates mop them up. The argument that Scourge is weak and therefore unplayable does not fly in PvP conversations. You can build that argument for PvE end game content and I might agree with you to some extent (and as our previous conversations have indicated we actually do have points of agreement on the matter) but it simply does not fly if we are discussing PvP or even WvW.

You can't doom and gloom Scourge for PvP like you can for PvE.

Im not sure about the diminishing number of scourge player is only because of those bandwagoners leaving the class but as a main scourge myself, the nerfs are huge that playing other classes seems to work better for me. Not saying no one should ever play scourge as well because thats absurd. Its just the nerfs reduced the class towards mediocrity that other class is a better choice.The last of scourge condition spam ability which is manifest shade shade was nerfed in latest balance patch in addition to dhummfire. Scourge can still does what its best which is AoE area denial but with this ever 'target the necro' meta in addition to incompetent team in ranked pvp, your AoEs are wasted and get swarmed while waiting for cooldown. Of course, this is all based on personal skills, team or situations but you naturally want to pick the class that does not rely on team too much unless you play support build.Theres no doom and gloom of no one picking up scourge ever just because of these nerfs but in pvp its natural to pick a class that does similar things but better. In the case of scourge vs reaper, reaper does better at the moment.

I don't know. In wvw i can even facetank most scourges with my reaper. Some need a little bit of dodging.

It's ridiculous how weak scourge has gotten, that it doesn't even punish you for standing inside of desert shroud radius

Not a single good guild runs reaper. All of them run several scourges. Reaper is competitive with scourge on the small scale, i.e. 1v1 and maybe 2v2. The moment you get groups reaper falls off pretty hard compared to scourge. As per usual you don't know what you're talking about.

Stating other players don't have the right to speak because they don't know the meta and aren't skilled; while constantly showing you don't grasp the meta's you're talking about. Perhaps you should take your own advise and stick to your expertise, which is definitely not WvW ;)

That was meant for solo roaming. Just go to one of those videos, that tell you reaper in zerg viable! And so on. If they posted this video's in this forum it's very likely I wrote a comment, why reaper sucks in zergs. And why it falls off even more in guild groups

[Nimon.7840]

Deleted post

[Obtena.7952]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:If Scourge didn't have a 'point', people wouldn't play it ... EVEN if that point is "I like playing Scourge". If people think Scourge doesn't 'do' anything, they have 8 other classes to choose from if performance is their only concern. Careful with that PVP though ... people are way smarter than a raid boss.

Well, you forgot to count specializations there which make 26 things to play other than scourge. As for whether people are smarter in PvP than mobs are, if you read the forum, either players aren't good (which seem to concern most of the population) or they are demigods that you can't even touch and play broken op professions.

i don't understand that point ... there are reasons to play any specialization ... EVEN if that reason is "I like playing X". You might not believe this but lots of people play classes because they like HOW they play (the mechanics) and the THEME. The performance for many people has nothing to do with why they choose and play a class. It is actually VERY relevant to consider that the 'point' of any specialization is simply to give people an option to play the core class differently ... and Anet even told us so.

if you are after some specific level of performance, you have LOTS of choices you can make to get it, including other classes. The idea that you must get some level of performance on a specific class you want to play in a specific game mode doesn't make sense in an MMO where you have been given the ability to choose according to whatever your criteria are for playing a 'good' class for you.

What is good in PVP is not determined by the average player; just like how the Meta in PVE is based on optimized builds/comps determined by highly skilled players that can pull them off. In either case, the meta is only MOST effective in the hands of these skilled players. The idea that Scourge 'doesn't have a point' indicates more of a player skill difference than the ACTUAL abilities and characteristics of Scourge itself.

[Dace.8173]

@Axl.8924 said:For me a lot of battles in battleground unrated i die because nobody helps and i get swarmed or kited by thieves on necro and can't survive or rangers kiting and ranging me out of range and my inability to survive alone.

I feel like on unrated there is a lot less co operation and a lot more zerging, and you end up with people trying to kill.

I understand at times that you got to move but i feel like its harder outside of voice chat.Necro is just less fun in spvp than thief, and while thief is very frustrating, its very rewarding.

I have that same frustration. I'd be doing relatively ok and then all of a sudden I'm facing down an entire team and left wondering what my team is busy doing since the caps aren't changing. The teams that I see win in both ranked and unranked are the folks who actually work together. The guys who, for the most part, stay together as a team and cap points as a team as opposed to folks who want to battle it out at mid.

[Egorum.9506]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@EdDreath.2508 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@EdDreath.2508 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@"nekretaal.6485" said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.

The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

It is a big deal if all they can offer is dps and even that is bottom.

Except that's not the case in PvP. Scourge is still a good crowd control profession due to its ability to spam AOE fields of condition doom. Which is how I see them used all the time in PvP. They may not be doing the highest amount of dps but they'll sit on a cap and spam fields that hinder the opposing team while their teammates mop them up. The argument that Scourge is weak and therefore unplayable does not fly in PvP conversations. You can build that argument for PvE end game content and I might agree with you to some extent (and as our previous conversations have indicated we actually do have points of agreement on the matter) but it simply does not fly if we are discussing PvP or even WvW.

You can't doom and gloom Scourge for PvP like you can for PvE.

Im not sure about the diminishing number of scourge player is only because of those bandwagoners leaving the class but as a main scourge myself, the nerfs are huge that playing other classes seems to work better for me. Not saying no one should ever play scourge as well because thats absurd. Its just the nerfs reduced the class towards mediocrity that other class is a better choice.The last of scourge condition spam ability which is manifest shade shade was nerfed in latest balance patch in addition to dhummfire. Scourge can still does what its best which is AoE area denial but with this ever 'target the necro' meta in addition to incompetent team in ranked pvp, your AoEs are wasted and get swarmed while waiting for cooldown. Of course, this is all based on personal skills, team or situations but you naturally want to pick the class that does not rely on team too much unless you play support build.Theres no doom and gloom of no one picking up scourge ever just because of these nerfs but in pvp its natural to pick a class that does similar things but better. In the case of scourge vs reaper, reaper does better at the moment.

I don't know. In wvw i can even facetank most scourges with my reaper. Some need a little bit of dodging.

It's ridiculous how weak scourge has gotten, that it doesn't even punish you for standing inside of desert shroud radius

Not a single good guild runs reaper. All of them run several scourges. Reaper is competitive with scourge on the small scale, i.e. 1v1 and maybe 2v2. The moment you get groups reaper falls off pretty hard compared to scourge. As per usual you don't know what you're talking about.

Stating other players don't have the right to speak because they don't know the meta and aren't skilled; while constantly showing you don't grasp the meta's you're talking about. Perhaps you should take your own advise and stick to your expertise, which is definitely not WvW ;)

That was meant for solo roaming. Just go to one of those videos, that tell you reaper in zerg viable! And so on. If they posted this video's in this forum it's very likely I wrote a comment, why reaper sucks in zergs. And why it falls off even more in guild groups

Yup, totally unplayable

[InfectionX.8745]

In WvW Condi Scourge in (TB even!) is a wrecking machine.Vipers in PVE for, same scenario.Perhaps you need to re-examine how you play the class?

[Egorum.9506]

@InfectionX.8745 said:In WvW Condi Scourge in (TB even!) is a wrecking machine.Vipers in PVE for, same scenario.Perhaps you need to re-examine how you play the class?

Last balance patch cut scourge burning down by 75% in wvw, which is a 40% total damage nerf for the spec. You're a little behind the times man

[InfectionX.8745]

I still wvw with it still or near top in zergs. Still regulary take on 2-3 v 1 players and win.

Your only concerned about this:"Last balance patch cut scourge burning down by 75% in wvw, which is a 40% total damage nerf for the spec"That's why you're not good at it.

[Egorum.9506]

@"InfectionX.8745" said:I still wvw with it still or near top in zergs. Still regulary take on 2-3 v 1 players and win.

Your only concerned about this:"Last balance patch cut scourge burning down by 75% in wvw, which is a 40% total damage nerf for the spec"That's why you're not good at it.

I'm gonna go ahead and throw out there that I'm not incompetent. Facts are, condi scourge got gutted the last patch.

Let's see a video of you topping charts on a condi scourge post patch? Or even roaming on a condi scourge post patch?