Is there a point to Scourge anymore?

ZDragon.3046 · July 25, 2018

@Nimon.7840 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Nimon.7840 said:

The reason i think ele got

by

with keeping its damage without complaints is that everyone who's played the profession knows its much harder to play than necro. Its more technical while being more flexible all around.

Well. For me that's not how it works. Sure ele maybe has a more complex rotation. But let's take the Condi scourge Vs staffweaver:Weaver 46k while weaver has 11k hpScourge was at 30.5 i think while it has 19k hp (21 traited)Do you think that 8k more hp is enough to justify that ele does 16k more DPS (ele rotation wasn't that hard, just to play it perfectly took quite some time)Or is it the 7k less hp that justifies the DPS difference. Or maybe both?

I don't think it should work based on hp values period and I dont think it is but you need to consider one more thing. DPS numbers like that are values based under perfect case situations ideally that alone is an unrealistic number to balance. I also think its also not a good idea to compare a damage carry spec vs a support spec and expect them to have the same damage. All specs should not be equal in terms of damage but they should all have something strong that makes them wanted. In weavers case its damage in scourges case it should ideally be barrier but its not strong enough to make people crave/need or want it. Its ok but its not GOOD and thats the problem. You shouldnt be playing scourge for the majority of its killing potential "Yes it should be able to do some damage and get a kill" but you shouldn't expect it to kill things as easily as weaver, mirage, spell breaker, soul beast, holosmith, deadeye. Ideally scourge, firebrand, and renegade should be doing similar with lower kill potential with more outgoing supportive power not Selfish supportive power thats used as means to over sustain itself.

Now let me tell you: you could take out all those utility skills on weaver, take blocks or evades and still do more dmg than necro could while being much harder to kill even by pve bosses. Not to mention that a lot of boss mechanics in raids do %dmg or even oneshot.

I think without a doubt without utility elementalist will 100% die far easier than necro in most situations. I play necro daily and there are often times where my base hp 21k gets knocked down to 2 or 3 k by just open world bosses. This would easily over kill and 100% down an elementalist. Even if we look at higher end veteren mobs. Ele has damage and evades but no chill, blinds, and overall less health it will still die far easier tha necro. I do not agree with your statement that ele is harder for pve foes and bosses to kill infact its easy for them to go down rather often.

While necro also has to use corruption skills that can easily kill himself if it's not outhealed or cleansed?This is a lack of quality of life its not a matter that the skills are not good ideas.The problem with these skills is that they are risk vs reward skills where the risk is weighted pretty heavy and the reward is weighted pretty minimally. While other professions have skills that can do the same and more with little or zero risk. Thats a core problem thats just not been fixed. As far as the outhealing or clesning part if you choose to use those skills there is a skill requirement to be able to know you can transfer / cleanse / heal your self applied conditions.
Necro has always had the stereotype of being an EZ profession with 2 health bars that never dies. So logically it cant have the same damage numbers right. I personally think necro is a intermediate profession in pve and one of the hardest to play in pvp being stunned once or twice is death an you only get 2 dodges, minimal stability and no disengage. Timing and placement is everything if you screw up you die. You very rarely get 2nd chances to come back as a necro once your health dips too low but thats my personal opinion.

That's a point I'm with you. I just played a celestial/viper sword weaver in wvw roaming it's so freaking easy to kill people with that while necro doesn't stand a chance.Scourge is not weaver do keep that in mind. It was suppose to be

offensive support

Not

damage carry / brusier fighter

what ever weaver is its 100% not what scourge is. You cant expect the two to achieve similar results in effectiveness for doing the same task,

"in this instance defeating another player directly"

The problem with necro or rather with scourge or rather with barrier is, that if you stack it, it gets really strong.I dont think thats a problem. I think barrier should be strong in fact it should be the main attraction of scourge as a support spec its barrier should be a pretty viable defensive option to share and use as a tool. The issue is that its not strong when shared on other players, but if they were to buff it barrier cant generally be strong to the point that the necro is unkillable and it takes a 3v1 to kill said necro and at the same time the necro is able to deal enough damage to kill others fairly easily. Thats what tempest was and why tempest got drilled so far into the dirt.

Its hard to balance but ideally traits should be made to increase barrier duration or out going barrier applied to other players but not the scourge itself. Other effects such alacrity on barrier application could also be look into to make scourge stronger in its ideal role area.

Guess necro players have to live with it, that they aren't allowed to have anything good, to be the best at something.They are only allowed to be average, being outclassed by other classes/professions.

This comes down to a lack of mechanics. Necro has no mechanics that have scaled well with time as new content was released. Vampiric aura is a joke, Well support is starting to become a thing but this is only after recent buffs and people are already calling scourge blood well rezing too strong.

That's why I'm was hoping for a necro rework some patches ago....Sadly we don't know if and when a rework might come most of us would like to see a necro rework on some small / big scales but until anet dems it time to do so it wont happen.

Generally my main point is that its become clear to me that scourge will never be allowed to have anything thats strong and competitive that wont be complained about in its current form. The community hates it too much from the first few months of its release. If its scourge and its strong and it kills you it will be complained about. IF core necro kills you and you complain about it people will laugh at you for doing so.
While i do think the balance team holds necro under a sereies of ropes that they clearly dont hold other professions under
(looking at mesmer/mirage and guardian/firebrand)
as both have massive flux of complaints but was far from getting the same treatment as scourge. It can only mean one of two things.
1 Scourge is hated to such a level that its never really going to recover without a more balanced rework and even then its not a promise.
2 The people on the balance team dont give necormancer enough time / money / effort to really fix its issues.
Now you might look at number 2 and say
"But they could just up some numbers EZ fix"
but if they do that and it results in more complaints from players which leads to things falling right back to the ground again. For them to properly fix necro its going to take alot of time and alot of money and effort and while one of the devs did say that they have reworks planed in the future they never said for what. We can only hope that a fix for necro is planned and comes sooner rather than later.

And to your point with p/p thiefes being necro counter, i can live with having a counter, if I'm the counter to someone else.But that's currently not. Necro has the worst matchups of all classes. Being on handycap while fighting most of the classes while having a 50:50 chance on only like 2 classes. Assuming that players are equally skilled.

Necro was not exactly built to be a duelist of any kind according to most people. So yes when you put it up against another profession 1 to 1 its generally got no good match ups. But this game is not balanced around 1v1 if it was mesmers would dominate everything.

My point is you cant really compare scourge to something like weaver or mirage and think that you should have just as much damage when those elite specs were made to play totally different roles. Yes its unfair that in the HoT meta chornomancer was kind of suppose to be a support but got to deal tons of damage and tempest much of the same but its honestly better that we move away from things like that. No one liked how tanky things were in the HoT meta and thats why everything in the PoF meta started out doing ridiculous amounts of damage even the supports.

xeph the tamagotchi.4082 · July 26, 2018

Sadly this was nerfed for the same reason as many other class nerfs. The people who are bad at PVP complaining about a class and devs being idiots and listening to the minority instead of actually doing some yesterday and seeing for them self. It's the same in every game with PVP.

Axl.8924 · July 29, 2018

@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Nimon.7840 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Nimon.7840 said:

The reason i think ele got

by

with keeping its damage without complaints is that everyone who's played the profession knows its much harder to play than necro. Its more technical while being more flexible all around.

Well. For me that's not how it works. Sure ele maybe has a more complex rotation. But let's take the Condi scourge Vs staffweaver:Weaver 46k while weaver has 11k hpScourge was at 30.5 i think while it has 19k hp (21 traited)Do you think that 8k more hp is enough to justify that ele does 16k more DPS (ele rotation wasn't that hard, just to play it perfectly took quite some time)Or is it the 7k less hp that justifies the DPS difference. Or maybe both?

I don't think it should work based on hp values period and I dont think it is but you need to consider one more thing. DPS numbers like that are values based under perfect case situations ideally that alone is an unrealistic number to balance. I also think its also not a good idea to compare a damage carry spec vs a support spec and expect them to have the same damage. All specs should not be equal in terms of damage but they should all have something strong that makes them wanted. In weavers case its damage in scourges case it should ideally be barrier but its not strong enough to make people crave/need or want it. Its ok but its not GOOD and thats the problem. You shouldnt be playing scourge for the majority of its killing potential "Yes it should be able to do some damage and get a kill" but you shouldn't expect it to kill things as easily as weaver, mirage, spell breaker, soul beast, holosmith, deadeye. Ideally scourge, firebrand, and renegade should be doing similar with lower kill potential with more outgoing supportive power

not

Selfish supportive power thats used as means to over sustain itself.

Now let me tell you: you could take out all those utility skills on weaver, take blocks or evades and still do more dmg than necro could while being much harder to kill even by pve bosses. Not to mention that a lot of boss mechanics in raids do %dmg or even oneshot.

I think without a doubt without utility elementalist will 100% die far easier than necro in most situations. I play necro daily and there are often times where my base hp 21k gets knocked down to 2 or 3 k by just open world bosses. This would easily over kill and 100% down an elementalist. Even if we look at higher end veteren mobs. Ele has damage and evades but no chill, blinds, and overall less health it will still die far easier tha necro. I do not agree with your statement that ele is harder for pve foes and bosses to kill infact its easy for them to go down rather often.

While necro also has to use corruption skills that can easily kill himself if it's not outhealed or cleansed?This is a lack of quality of life its not a matter that the skills are not good ideas.The problem with these skills is that they are risk vs reward skills where the risk is weighted pretty heavy and the reward is weighted pretty minimally. While other professions have skills that can do the same and more with little or zero risk. Thats a core problem thats just not been fixed. As far as the outhealing or clesning part if you choose to use those skills there is a skill requirement to be able to know you can transfer / cleanse / heal your self applied conditions.
Necro has always had the stereotype of being an EZ profession with 2 health bars that never dies. So logically it cant have the same damage numbers right. I personally think necro is a intermediate profession in pve and one of the hardest to play in pvp being stunned once or twice is death an you only get 2 dodges, minimal stability and no disengage. Timing and placement is everything if you screw up you die. You very rarely get 2nd chances to come back as a necro once your health dips too low but thats my personal opinion.

That's a point I'm with you. I just played a celestial/viper sword weaver in wvw roaming it's so freaking easy to kill people with that while necro doesn't stand a chance.Scourge is not weaver do keep that in mind. It was suppose to be

offensive support

Not

damage carry / brusier fighter

what ever weaver is its 100% not what scourge is. You cant expect the two to achieve similar results in effectiveness for doing the same task,

"in this instance defeating another player directly"

The problem with necro or rather with scourge or rather with barrier is, that if you stack it, it gets really strong.I dont think thats a problem. I think barrier should be strong in fact it should be the main attraction of scourge as a support spec its barrier should be a pretty viable defensive option to share and use as a tool. The issue is that its not strong when shared on other players, but if they were to buff it barrier cant generally be strong to the point that the necro is unkillable and it takes a 3v1 to kill said necro and at the same time the necro is able to deal enough damage to kill others fairly easily. Thats what tempest was and why tempest got drilled so far into the dirt.

Its hard to balance but ideally traits should be made to increase barrier duration or out going barrier applied to other players but not the scourge itself. Other effects such alacrity on barrier application could also be look into to make scourge stronger in its ideal role area.

Guess necro players have to live with it, that they aren't allowed to have anything good, to be the best at something.They are only allowed to be average, being outclassed by other classes/professions.

This comes down to a lack of mechanics. Necro has no mechanics that have scaled well with time as new content was released. Vampiric aura is a joke, Well support is starting to become a thing but this is only after recent buffs and people are already calling scourge blood well rezing too strong.

That's why I'm was hoping for a necro rework some patches ago....Sadly we don't know if and when a rework might come most of us would like to see a necro rework on some small / big scales but until anet dems it time to do so it wont happen.

Generally my main point is that its become clear to me that scourge will never be allowed to have anything thats strong and competitive that wont be complained about in its current form. The community hates it too much from the first few months of its release. If its scourge and its strong and it kills you it will be complained about. IF core necro kills you and you complain about it people will laugh at you for doing so.
While i do think the balance team holds necro under a sereies of ropes that they clearly dont hold other professions under
(looking at mesmer/mirage and guardian/firebrand)
as both have massive flux of complaints but was far from getting the same treatment as scourge. It can only mean one of two things.
1 Scourge is hated to such a level that its never really going to recover without a more balanced rework and even then its not a promise.
2 The people on the balance team dont give necormancer enough time / money / effort to really fix its issues.
Now you might look at number 2 and say
"But they could just up some numbers EZ fix"
but if they do that and it results in more complaints from players which leads to things falling right back to the ground again. For them to properly fix necro its going to take alot of time and alot of money and effort and while one of the devs did say that they have reworks planed in the future they never said for what. We can only hope that a fix for necro is planned and comes sooner rather than later.

And to your point with p/p thiefes being necro counter, i can live with having a counter, if I'm the counter to someone else.But that's currently not. Necro has the worst matchups of all classes. Being on handycap while fighting most of the classes while having a 50:50 chance on only like 2 classes. Assuming that players are equally skilled.

Necro was not exactly built to be a duelist of any kind according to most people. So yes when you put it up against another profession 1 to 1 its generally got no good match ups. But this game is not balanced around 1v1 if it was mesmers would dominate everything.

My point is you cant really compare scourge to something like weaver or mirage and think that you should have just as much damage when those elite specs were made to play totally different roles. Yes its unfair that in the HoT meta chornomancer was kind of suppose to be a support but got to deal tons of damage and tempest much of the same but its honestly better that we move away from things like that. No one liked how tanky things were in the HoT meta and thats why everything in the PoF meta started out doing ridiculous amounts of damage even the supports.

Like reaper yeah reaper is super super tanky and i tended to outlive people in fractals.

Nimon.7840 · July 30, 2018

@Axl.8924 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Nimon.7840 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Nimon.7840 said:

The reason i think ele got

by

with keeping its damage without complaints is that everyone who's played the profession knows its much harder to play than necro. Its more technical while being more flexible all around.

Well. For me that's not how it works. Sure ele maybe has a more complex rotation. But let's take the Condi scourge Vs staffweaver:Weaver 46k while weaver has 11k hpScourge was at 30.5 i think while it has 19k hp (21 traited)Do you think that 8k more hp is enough to justify that ele does 16k more DPS (ele rotation wasn't that hard, just to play it perfectly took quite some time)Or is it the 7k less hp that justifies the DPS difference. Or maybe both?

I don't think it should work based on hp values period and I dont think it is but you need to consider one more thing. DPS numbers like that are values based under perfect case situations ideally that alone is an unrealistic number to balance. I also think its also not a good idea to compare a damage carry spec vs a support spec and expect them to have the same damage. All specs should not be equal in terms of damage but they should all have something strong that makes them wanted. In weavers case its damage in scourges case it should ideally be barrier but its not strong enough to make people crave/need or want it. Its ok but its not GOOD and thats the problem. You shouldnt be playing scourge for the majority of its killing potential "Yes it should be able to do some damage and get a kill" but you shouldn't expect it to kill things as easily as weaver, mirage, spell breaker, soul beast, holosmith, deadeye. Ideally scourge, firebrand, and renegade should be doing similar with lower kill potential with more outgoing supportive power

not

Selfish supportive power thats used as means to over sustain itself.

Now let me tell you: you could take out all those utility skills on weaver, take blocks or evades and still do more dmg than necro could while being much harder to kill even by pve bosses. Not to mention that a lot of boss mechanics in raids do %dmg or even oneshot.

I think without a doubt without utility elementalist will 100% die far easier than necro in most situations. I play necro daily and there are often times where my base hp 21k gets knocked down to 2 or 3 k by just open world bosses. This would easily over kill and 100% down an elementalist. Even if we look at higher end veteren mobs. Ele has damage and evades but no chill, blinds, and overall less health it will still die far easier tha necro. I do not agree with your statement that ele is harder for pve foes and bosses to kill infact its easy for them to go down rather often.

While necro also has to use corruption skills that can easily kill himself if it's not outhealed or cleansed?This is a lack of quality of life its not a matter that the skills are not good ideas.The problem with these skills is that they are risk vs reward skills where the risk is weighted pretty heavy and the reward is weighted pretty minimally. While other professions have skills that can do the same and more with little or zero risk. Thats a core problem thats just not been fixed. As far as the outhealing or clesning part if you choose to use those skills there is a skill requirement to be able to know you can transfer / cleanse / heal your self applied conditions.
Necro has always had the stereotype of being an EZ profession with 2 health bars that never dies. So logically it cant have the same damage numbers right. I personally think necro is a intermediate profession in pve and one of the hardest to play in pvp being stunned once or twice is death an you only get 2 dodges, minimal stability and no disengage. Timing and placement is everything if you screw up you die. You very rarely get 2nd chances to come back as a necro once your health dips too low but thats my personal opinion.

That's a point I'm with you. I just played a celestial/viper sword weaver in wvw roaming it's so freaking easy to kill people with that while necro doesn't stand a chance.Scourge is not weaver do keep that in mind. It was suppose to be

offensive support

Not

damage carry / brusier fighter

what ever weaver is its 100% not what scourge is. You cant expect the two to achieve similar results in effectiveness for doing the same task,

"in this instance defeating another player directly"

The problem with necro or rather with scourge or rather with barrier is, that if you stack it, it gets really strong.I dont think thats a problem. I think barrier should be strong in fact it should be the main attraction of scourge as a support spec its barrier should be a pretty viable defensive option to share and use as a tool. The issue is that its not strong when shared on other players, but if they were to buff it barrier cant generally be strong to the point that the necro is unkillable and it takes a 3v1 to kill said necro and at the same time the necro is able to deal enough damage to kill others fairly easily. Thats what tempest was and why tempest got drilled so far into the dirt.

Its hard to balance but ideally traits should be made to increase barrier duration or out going barrier applied to other players but not the scourge itself. Other effects such alacrity on barrier application could also be look into to make scourge stronger in its ideal role area.

Guess necro players have to live with it, that they aren't allowed to have anything good, to be the best at something.They are only allowed to be average, being outclassed by other classes/professions.

This comes down to a lack of mechanics. Necro has no mechanics that have scaled well with time as new content was released. Vampiric aura is a joke, Well support is starting to become a thing but this is only after recent buffs and people are already calling scourge blood well rezing too strong.

That's why I'm was hoping for a necro rework some patches ago....Sadly we don't know if and when a rework might come most of us would like to see a necro rework on some small / big scales but until anet dems it time to do so it wont happen.

Generally my main point is that its become clear to me that scourge will never be allowed to have anything thats strong and competitive that wont be complained about in its current form. The community hates it too much from the first few months of its release. If its scourge and its strong and it kills you it will be complained about. IF core necro kills you and you complain about it people will laugh at you for doing so.
While i do think the balance team holds necro under a sereies of ropes that they clearly dont hold other professions under
(looking at mesmer/mirage and guardian/firebrand)
as both have massive flux of complaints but was far from getting the same treatment as scourge. It can only mean one of two things.
1 Scourge is hated to such a level that its never really going to recover without a more balanced rework and even then its not a promise.
2 The people on the balance team dont give necormancer enough time / money / effort to really fix its issues.
Now you might look at number 2 and say
"But they could just up some numbers EZ fix"
but if they do that and it results in more complaints from players which leads to things falling right back to the ground again. For them to properly fix necro its going to take alot of time and alot of money and effort and while one of the devs did say that they have reworks planed in the future they never said for what. We can only hope that a fix for necro is planned and comes sooner rather than later.

And to your point with p/p thiefes being necro counter, i can live with having a counter, if I'm the counter to someone else.But that's currently not. Necro has the worst matchups of all classes. Being on handycap while fighting most of the classes while having a 50:50 chance on only like 2 classes. Assuming that players are equally skilled.

Necro was not exactly built to be a duelist of any kind according to most people. So yes when you put it up against another profession 1 to 1 its generally got no good match ups. But this game is not balanced around 1v1 if it was mesmers would dominate everything.

My point is you cant really compare scourge to something like weaver or mirage and think that you should have just as much damage when those elite specs were made to play totally different roles. Yes its unfair that in the HoT meta chornomancer was kind of suppose to be a support but got to deal tons of damage and tempest much of the same but its honestly better that we move away from things like that. No one liked how tanky things were in the HoT meta and thats why everything in the PoF meta started out doing ridiculous amounts of damage even the supports.

Like reaper yeah reaper is super super tanky and i tended to outlive people in fractals.

Maybe you were just the better player?

Sorry but fracs and open world. I just have to laugh about, if people use them for justifying something.

Then i could tell you a story or two:

Yesterday boss blitz crown pavillion. I knew from experience, that people would go down so i played blood/curses/scourgeI had a holo on my group that pulled 12k DPSThen me with 8kEveryone else was under 4k. Sorry but that's people who don't have a clue about the game or how their class works.

Then fractals:Played normal DPS scourge. No support other than a little bit of barrier.All of my teammates died while i was still above 90% and i finished the boss alone.

It's not the necro that lets you survive better. If you want something to survive easily play warrior or chrono. But even they died with the healing of the druid

Axl.8924 · July 30, 2018

It's not the necro that lets you survive better. If you want something to survive easily play warrior or chrono. But even they died with the healing of the druid

Well i do have experience with reaper, which is why i always put boon corrupt well and bring stuff for corrupting condis on allies.

Even so:I was generally tanky, at least then because the form lasted longer and you could take a bunch of hits and do damage with reaper form, and ele in comparison is much squishier but provides greater buff generation with tempest and resists.

nekretaal.6485 · August 1, 2018

No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.

The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

Curennos.9307 · August 3, 2018

I tried my scourge in ranked again after a break between seasons and it was horrifying. It felt like all the pressure I'd had - which was already weak to begin with ( I ran blood magic). Now it seems like everyone just humps my leg through the entire duration of my shroud without a care in the world.

Why couldn't they just have changed shroud to ramp-up pulse damage instead, so that players could be rewarded for dodging at the right time? But noo, instead they just murdered a GM trait for a vast swath of builds.

Edit: And I didn't think I'd ever say this, but...the cooldowns on the shade skills have GOT To be looked at. I always have a crap ton of leftover LF that I just can't even use because all the skills are on massive CDs.

kroof.5468 · August 3, 2018

I just wanted a support ; - ;I still think there is a lot of work to be done for support scourges. It'd be cool if it emphasized a combo of life leeching and barriers. I think if they focused more on those 2 styles of healing/support it would be worth while.Also, The might generation of the Necro is nice, but maybe just a light touch up could help it compete more smoothly.

Ceit.7619 · August 4, 2018

In answer to the topic header, Scourge makes an excellent mule.

Dace.8173 · August 4, 2018

@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.
The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

EdDreath.2508 · August 4, 2018

@Dace.8173 said:
@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.
The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

Dace.8173 · August 5, 2018

@EdDreath.2508 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.
The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

Axl.8924 · August 5, 2018

@Dace.8173 said:
@EdDreath.2508 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.
The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

It is a big deal if all they can offer is dps and even that is bottom.

Dace.8173 · August 8, 2018

@Axl.8924 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@EdDreath.2508 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.
The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

It is a big deal if all they can offer is dps and even that is bottom.

Except that's not the case in PvP. Scourge is still a good crowd control profession due to its ability to spam AOE fields of condition doom. Which is how I see them used all the time in PvP. They may not be doing the highest amount of dps but they'll sit on a cap and spam fields that hinder the opposing team while their teammates mop them up. The argument that Scourge is weak and therefore unplayable does not fly in PvP conversations. You can build that argument for PvE end game content and I might agree with you to some extent (and as our previous conversations have indicated we actually do have points of agreement on the matter) but it simply does not fly if we are discussing PvP or even WvW.

You can't doom and gloom Scourge for PvP like you can for PvE.

EdDreath.2508 · August 8, 2018

@Dace.8173 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@EdDreath.2508 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.
The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

It is a big deal if all they can offer is dps and even that is bottom.

Except that's not the case in PvP. Scourge is still a good crowd control profession due to its ability to spam AOE fields of condition doom. Which is how I see them used all the time in PvP. They may not be doing the highest amount of dps but they'll sit on a cap and spam fields that hinder the opposing team while their teammates mop them up. The argument that Scourge is weak and therefore unplayable does not fly in PvP conversations. You can build that argument for PvE end game content and I might agree with you to some extent (and as our previous conversations have indicated we actually do have points of agreement on the matter) but it simply does not fly if we are discussing PvP or even WvW.

You can't doom and gloom Scourge for PvP like you can for PvE.

Im not sure about the diminishing number of scourge player is only because of those bandwagoners leaving the class but as a main scourge myself, the nerfs are huge that playing other classes seems to work better for me. Not saying no one should ever play scourge as well because thats absurd. Its just the nerfs reduced the class towards mediocrity that other class is a better choice.The last of scourge condition spam ability which is manifest shade shade was nerfed in latest balance patch in addition to dhummfire. Scourge can still does what its best which is AoE area denial but with this ever 'target the necro' meta in addition to incompetent team in ranked pvp, your AoEs are wasted and get swarmed while waiting for cooldown. Of course, this is all based on personal skills, team or situations but you naturally want to pick the class that does not rely on team too much unless you play support build.Theres no doom and gloom of no one picking up scourge ever just because of these nerfs but in pvp its natural to pick a class that does similar things but better. In the case of scourge vs reaper, reaper does better at the moment.

Nimon.7840 · August 8, 2018

@Dace.8173 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@EdDreath.2508 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.
The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

It is a big deal if all they can offer is dps and even that is bottom.

Except that's not the case in PvP. Scourge is still a good crowd control profession due to its ability to spam AOE fields of condition doom. Which is how I see them used all the time in PvP. They may not be doing the highest amount of dps but they'll sit on a cap and spam fields that hinder the opposing team while their teammates mop them up. The argument that Scourge is weak and therefore unplayable does not fly in PvP conversations. You can build that argument for PvE end game content and I might agree with you to some extent (and as our previous conversations have indicated we actually do have points of agreement on the matter) but it simply does not fly if we are discussing PvP or even WvW.

You can't doom and gloom Scourge for PvP like you can for PvE.

Just to ask. What rank are you in PvP?

Nimon.7840 · August 8, 2018

@EdDreath.2508 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@EdDreath.2508 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.
The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

It is a big deal if all they can offer is dps and even that is bottom.

Except that's not the case in PvP. Scourge is still a good crowd control profession due to its ability to spam AOE fields of condition doom. Which is how I see them used all the time in PvP. They may not be doing the highest amount of dps but they'll sit on a cap and spam fields that hinder the opposing team while their teammates mop them up. The argument that Scourge is weak and therefore unplayable does not fly in PvP conversations. You can build that argument for PvE end game content and I might agree with you to some extent (and as our previous conversations have indicated we actually do have points of agreement on the matter) but it simply does not fly if we are discussing PvP or even WvW.

You can't doom and gloom Scourge for PvP like you can for PvE.

Im not sure about the diminishing number of scourge player is only because of those bandwagoners leaving the class but as a main scourge myself, the nerfs are huge that playing other classes seems to work better for me. Not saying no one should ever play scourge as well because thats absurd. Its just the nerfs reduced the class towards mediocrity that other class is a better choice.The last of scourge condition spam ability which is manifest shade shade was nerfed in latest balance patch in addition to dhummfire. Scourge can still does what its best which is AoE area denial but with this ever 'target the necro' meta in addition to incompetent team in ranked pvp, your AoEs are wasted and get swarmed while waiting for cooldown. Of course, this is all based on personal skills, team or situations but you naturally want to pick the class that does not rely on team too much unless you play support build.Theres no doom and gloom of no one picking up scourge ever just because of these nerfs but in pvp its natural to pick a class that does similar things but better. In the case of scourge vs reaper, reaper does better at the moment.

I don't know. In wvw i can even facetank most scourges with my reaper. Some need a little bit of dodging.

It's ridiculous how weak scourge has gotten, that it doesn't even punish you for standing inside of desert shroud radius

Dace.8173 · August 8, 2018

@EdDreath.2508 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@EdDreath.2508 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.
The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

It is a big deal if all they can offer is dps and even that is bottom.

Except that's not the case in PvP. Scourge is still a good crowd control profession due to its ability to spam AOE fields of condition doom. Which is how I see them used all the time in PvP. They may not be doing the highest amount of dps but they'll sit on a cap and spam fields that hinder the opposing team while their teammates mop them up. The argument that Scourge is weak and therefore unplayable does not fly in PvP conversations. You can build that argument for PvE end game content and I might agree with you to some extent (and as our previous conversations have indicated we actually do have points of agreement on the matter) but it simply does not fly if we are discussing PvP or even WvW.

You can't doom and gloom Scourge for PvP like you can for PvE.

Im not sure about the diminishing number of scourge player is only because of those bandwagoners leaving the class but as a main scourge myself, the nerfs are huge that playing other classes seems to work better for me. Not saying no one should ever play scourge as well because thats absurd. Its just the nerfs reduced the class towards mediocrity that other class is a better choice.The last of scourge condition spam ability which is manifest shade shade was nerfed in latest balance patch in addition to dhummfire. Scourge can still does what its best which is AoE area denial but with this ever 'target the necro' meta in addition to incompetent team in ranked pvp, your AoEs are wasted and get swarmed while waiting for cooldown. Of course, this is all based on personal skills, team or situations but you naturally want to pick the class that does not rely on team too much unless you play support build.Theres no doom and gloom of no one picking up scourge ever just because of these nerfs but in pvp its natural to pick a class that does similar things but better. In the case of scourge vs reaper, reaper does better at the moment.

Yeah but I'm not really addressing you when I speak of doom and gloom. You seem to be one of the rare few players who actually doesn't worse case scenario the situation. If you are going to argue that Reaper does similar things but better then it stands to reason that a person could reasonably still find Scourge to be good enough for them. And there being a better choice is also a far cry from the doom and gloom of there being no point to playing Scourge. People go into PvP all the time with mediocre builds since that build may be what they enjoy and GW2 PvP isn't exactly as competitive as other games PvP scene. Being as how you still get something just for showing up there is plenty of reason to play the profession for most people. Only the most competitive of players will truly worry about these things but I honestly don't think the majority of people entering PvP are highly competitive folks.

Personally, I think most of the doom and gloom just assumes that people don't play for fun. Then again I also tend to have a broader scope on what I consider fun in a game.

@Nimon.7840 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@EdDreath.2508 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.
The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.

And yet people still play Scourge in PvP.

Yeah but the number are really diminishing now . Since nerfs after nerfs the 2-necro in a team in Spvp changed from scourge-scourge, scourge-reaper and now reaper-reaper which is really not a duo you will see during pof launch or before latest the last 2 balance patches.

Scourge still works with its condi spam and rezbot but its damage output is sad. on top of its squishiness. Reaper with recent buffs, helicopter to mow opponents and perma-chill and more sustain is a stronger choice in group fight now.

A slight drop in play is a far far faaaaaar cry from the doom and gloom of no one picking up Scourge to play it ever again because everyone who played it while it was good were bandwagoners and only play professions that are Meta.

It is a big deal if all they can offer is dps and even that is bottom.

Except that's not the case in PvP. Scourge is still a good crowd control profession due to its ability to spam AOE fields of condition doom. Which is how I see them used all the time in PvP. They may not be doing the highest amount of dps but they'll sit on a cap and spam fields that hinder the opposing team while their teammates mop them up. The argument that Scourge is weak and therefore unplayable does not fly in PvP conversations. You can build that argument for PvE end game content and I might agree with you to some extent (and as our previous conversations have indicated we actually do have points of agreement on the matter) but it simply does not fly if we are discussing PvP or even WvW.

You can't doom and gloom Scourge for PvP like you can for PvE.

Just to ask. What rank are you in PvP?

Silver.

Milan.9035 · August 8, 2018

I just recently switched from holo and rev to play almost exclusively necro and i love it. I feel that reaper is better than scourge but scourge is not bad at all. When i got a good firebrand scourge is the way to go. Problem now is solo as scourge cause you got a lot of deadeye, mesmsers, revs, spellbreakers and holo that are all high burst and everyone knows target necro first so makes the start of a fight hard for necro. But you can just los at the start and wait for someone to port on you then gs 4 on them and just annihilate them.

I am plat this season if wondering.

Ghos.1326 · August 8, 2018

@X T D.6458 said:Can you please redesign this spec now? This spec was made to fill specific roles, condi spec/boon corruption/area control etc. But after so many nerfs is there even a point to it? Boon corruption nerfed, damage nerfed, survivability nerfed, in addition to necromancers lack of any sustain and mobility skills. You create a spec which encourages us to play in a specific way, then you nerf the hell out of it. Seriously just redesign the entire spec at this point.

Which game mode are you referring to?

Obtena.7952 · August 9, 2018

If Scourge didn't have a 'point', people wouldn't play it ... EVEN if that point is "I like playing Scourge". If people think Scourge doesn't 'do' anything, they have 8 other classes to choose from if performance is their only concern. Careful with that PVP though ... people are way smarter than a raid boss.

Nimon.7840 · August 9, 2018

@Dace.8173 said:
@EdDreath.2508 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@EdDreath.2508 said:
@Dace.8173 said:
@nekretaal.6485 said:No point to Scourge in pvp anymore. Dragonhunter does the same thing (controlling fights on a capture point with offense instead of defense) better than Scourge does, with more survivability and more damage.
The only major advantage that the meta Scourge builds have over the Dragonhunter builds is that the pvp matching system are more likely to match Firebrand players (who amplify the abilities of both) with scourges than with dragon hunters.