>25K from stealth in an instant and go back to stealth instantly.

bq pd.2148 · July 20, 2018

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
@Legatus.3608 said:
@Swagg.9236 said:
@Legatus.3608 said:
@Swagg.9236 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Crystal Paladin.3871 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Swagg.9236 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:that was WvW not spvp. the build used there you wont see in spvp because it is way to reliant on stealth wich is pretty stupid in spvp. different modes, different playstyles. you have way more time and way more space to fight in WvW. soo wrong forum.
you and your holo (with Merciless Legend title so prolly not full noob) of whom i wasnt sure if he had lock on were in your buffed camp so ofc i fought cautiously. you didnt show the malice buildup in the video that was before.

Stealth is an annoying meme mechanic as it functions in GW2, and unilaterally opens up into a huge burst chain no matter which class utilizes it. Rangers go from stealth into burst; mesmers do it; thieves do it; even engineers did it to an extent back in the day. Moreover, the most frustrating thing about playing against stealth in GW2 is how passive a stealth-user can afford to be while a target who doesn't have stealth has to constantly do guesswork throughout the entire stealth chain since re-engagement from stealth is always instantaneous if played """well""" or """correctly.""" The fact that anyone can just instantly activate perfect invisibility, linger in it for up to 20 seconds and then re-engage from range without any warning or risk to the user is a total joke of a design when framed within a player vs player encounter. Stats don't matter--not even skill matters at that point. Everything is put behind such a huge margin afforded to the guy who rolled the class with stealth, especially if that guy chooses deliberately to fight a class without it.

this all would matter if there would be a real deathmatch mode or a last man standing mode. we got only courtyard spvp map but this is not even in ranked or unranked. in any other part of the game it is not efficient to play with long stealth.going stealth instantly is just possible with a few abilities and none of them grants 20s stealth, actually only shadowrefuge with SA grants 20 seconds and is not instant. so you got to keep stacking stealth for that 20 seconds , wich again costs resources, be it some cooldowns or in case of thief initative and endurance wich will effect the fight after. further most stealth skills have a visual tell even when used from stealth and you can usually see combo fields used to stack stealth aswell to guess their position or even reveal them with reveal skills or by getting hit with a combo finisher.many people seem to dismiss that everything for stealth, be it traits, utilities or weapon skills / ini / endurance, all of it is an investment. you dont profit from it once your out of stealth so the opener better be worth the investment. that is how gw2 balances stealth. you have lot of options to go stealth, many of them can be countered but they are all of short duration. if you want long stealth you have to invest resources into stealth constantly so you will lack them once your out of stealth.

Perma stealth is still unacceptable since you went stealth even after stomping that guy... How would anyone after his death be able to get a sneeze at you??? You can take out an whole army with that thing and the best thing is you can do it without a scratch unless everyone is inside a reflect bubble and totally spike trapped... This sounds ridiculous... Revealed is supposed to be the smart person's counter, but even that can be easily kicked away like a defenseless puppy with DE... Don't argue that you invest so much on stealth... If you have perma stealth and can only deal 1dmg, that is still OP... Imagine gw2 in future being overrun by DE everywhere and almost everyone ditching all professions and "guild wars" renamed to "DE wars" LOL

you clearly have no clue about how hard it is for a deadeye to kill someone.

It isn't difficult at all. Just because it isn't

effective

doesn't mean that it isn't maximum low effort.

That's like saying permastealth in sPvP is too good because it requires no effort

The point is you aren't doing anything relevant to the game, effort or not

Yes, but that's precisely the point: the spec is engineered to do that. The player is going to be disadvantaged if he/she tries to play DE without dumping out a big, low effort stealth chain onto the field. The user is going to be able to do this. No effort. Whether or not it works is mostly chance, guesswork, and the user somehow not messing up the extremely complicated task of pressing a handful of buttons that are all auto-aimed onto a selected target.

There is zero player-mechanical skill involved. It isn't consistently effective, but considering how little effort a user has to put into this build's main "playstyle," when it

does

work, the user gets a free kill within a handful of seconds for the grand total of waiting around for half a minute before pressing all of 2-3 buttons: no effort; no skill; balanced by chance (RNG).

Yes, he will eventually kill some afk players.

Unfortunately, he's still going to lose all his matches, contribute nothing in wvw, and die to anyone who is able to dodge one obviously telegraphed attack. It's exactly what I said it is: a troll spec that contributes nothing to actually DOING anything

You people keep talking about that one guy he killed after losing 20 matches, but conveniently ignore the 20 losses. That isn't opness, it's bias.

See, that's fine. The rifle isn't the issue for most people it's the unpredictability of the back stab that will land 20k+. The older shadowarts D/p was much easier to guess or counter but with the de traits and stealth on stolen skills you don't need to rely on smoke fields and that's what makes it's pretty hard to guess when the bs comes.

actually the way i play i do rely on smokefields if i stealth for longer. but i can hide the smokefield. thats is maybe an issue.

Fat Disgrace.4275 · July 20, 2018

@MUDse.7623 said:
@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
@Legatus.3608 said:
@Swagg.9236 said:
@Legatus.3608 said:
@Swagg.9236 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Crystal Paladin.3871 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Swagg.9236 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:that was WvW not spvp. the build used there you wont see in spvp because it is way to reliant on stealth wich is pretty stupid in spvp. different modes, different playstyles. you have way more time and way more space to fight in WvW. soo wrong forum.
you and your holo (with Merciless Legend title so prolly not full noob) of whom i wasnt sure if he had lock on were in your buffed camp so ofc i fought cautiously. you didnt show the malice buildup in the video that was before.

Stealth is an annoying meme mechanic as it functions in GW2, and unilaterally opens up into a huge burst chain no matter which class utilizes it. Rangers go from stealth into burst; mesmers do it; thieves do it; even engineers did it to an extent back in the day. Moreover, the most frustrating thing about playing against stealth in GW2 is how passive a stealth-user can afford to be while a target who doesn't have stealth has to constantly do guesswork throughout the entire stealth chain since re-engagement from stealth is always instantaneous if played """well""" or """correctly.""" The fact that anyone can just instantly activate perfect invisibility, linger in it for up to 20 seconds and then re-engage from range without any warning or risk to the user is a total joke of a design when framed within a player vs player encounter. Stats don't matter--not even skill matters at that point. Everything is put behind such a huge margin afforded to the guy who rolled the class with stealth, especially if that guy chooses deliberately to fight a class without it.

this all would matter if there would be a real deathmatch mode or a last man standing mode. we got only courtyard spvp map but this is not even in ranked or unranked. in any other part of the game it is not efficient to play with long stealth.going stealth instantly is just possible with a few abilities and none of them grants 20s stealth, actually only shadowrefuge with SA grants 20 seconds and is not instant. so you got to keep stacking stealth for that 20 seconds , wich again costs resources, be it some cooldowns or in case of thief initative and endurance wich will effect the fight after. further most stealth skills have a visual tell even when used from stealth and you can usually see combo fields used to stack stealth aswell to guess their position or even reveal them with reveal skills or by getting hit with a combo finisher.many people seem to dismiss that everything for stealth, be it traits, utilities or weapon skills / ini / endurance, all of it is an investment. you dont profit from it once your out of stealth so the opener better be worth the investment. that is how gw2 balances stealth. you have lot of options to go stealth, many of them can be countered but they are all of short duration. if you want long stealth you have to invest resources into stealth constantly so you will lack them once your out of stealth.

Perma stealth is still unacceptable since you went stealth even after stomping that guy... How would anyone after his death be able to get a sneeze at you??? You can take out an whole army with that thing and the best thing is you can do it without a scratch unless everyone is inside a reflect bubble and totally spike trapped... This sounds ridiculous... Revealed is supposed to be the smart person's counter, but even that can be easily kicked away like a defenseless puppy with DE... Don't argue that you invest so much on stealth... If you have perma stealth and can only deal 1dmg, that is still OP... Imagine gw2 in future being overrun by DE everywhere and almost everyone ditching all professions and "guild wars" renamed to "DE wars" LOL

you clearly have no clue about how hard it is for a deadeye to kill someone.

It isn't difficult at all. Just because it isn't

effective

doesn't mean that it isn't maximum low effort.

That's like saying permastealth in sPvP is too good because it requires no effort

The point is you aren't doing anything relevant to the game, effort or not

Yes, but that's precisely the point: the spec is engineered to do that. The player is going to be disadvantaged if he/she tries to play DE without dumping out a big, low effort stealth chain onto the field. The user is going to be able to do this. No effort. Whether or not it works is mostly chance, guesswork, and the user somehow not messing up the extremely complicated task of pressing a handful of buttons that are all auto-aimed onto a selected target.

There is zero player-mechanical skill involved. It isn't consistently effective, but considering how little effort a user has to put into this build's main "playstyle," when it

does

work, the user gets a free kill within a handful of seconds for the grand total of waiting around for half a minute before pressing all of 2-3 buttons: no effort; no skill; balanced by chance (RNG).

Yes, he will eventually kill some afk players.

Unfortunately, he's still going to lose all his matches, contribute nothing in wvw, and die to anyone who is able to dodge one obviously telegraphed attack. It's exactly what I said it is: a troll spec that contributes nothing to actually DOING anything

You people keep talking about that one guy he killed after losing 20 matches, but conveniently ignore the 20 losses. That isn't opness, it's bias.

See, that's fine. The rifle isn't the issue for most people it's the unpredictability of the back stab that will land 20k+. The older shadowarts D/p was much easier to guess or counter but with the de traits and stealth on stolen skills you don't need to rely on smoke fields and that's what makes it's pretty hard to guess when the bs comes.

actually the way i play i do rely on smokefields if i stealth for longer. but i can hide the smokefield. thats is maybe an issue.

Can normally hear the smoke fields too. Just that some don't

bq pd.2148 · July 20, 2018

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
@Legatus.3608 said:
@Swagg.9236 said:
@Legatus.3608 said:
@Swagg.9236 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Crystal Paladin.3871 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Swagg.9236 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:that was WvW not spvp. the build used there you wont see in spvp because it is way to reliant on stealth wich is pretty stupid in spvp. different modes, different playstyles. you have way more time and way more space to fight in WvW. soo wrong forum.
you and your holo (with Merciless Legend title so prolly not full noob) of whom i wasnt sure if he had lock on were in your buffed camp so ofc i fought cautiously. you didnt show the malice buildup in the video that was before.

Stealth is an annoying meme mechanic as it functions in GW2, and unilaterally opens up into a huge burst chain no matter which class utilizes it. Rangers go from stealth into burst; mesmers do it; thieves do it; even engineers did it to an extent back in the day. Moreover, the most frustrating thing about playing against stealth in GW2 is how passive a stealth-user can afford to be while a target who doesn't have stealth has to constantly do guesswork throughout the entire stealth chain since re-engagement from stealth is always instantaneous if played """well""" or """correctly.""" The fact that anyone can just instantly activate perfect invisibility, linger in it for up to 20 seconds and then re-engage from range without any warning or risk to the user is a total joke of a design when framed within a player vs player encounter. Stats don't matter--not even skill matters at that point. Everything is put behind such a huge margin afforded to the guy who rolled the class with stealth, especially if that guy chooses deliberately to fight a class without it.

this all would matter if there would be a real deathmatch mode or a last man standing mode. we got only courtyard spvp map but this is not even in ranked or unranked. in any other part of the game it is not efficient to play with long stealth.going stealth instantly is just possible with a few abilities and none of them grants 20s stealth, actually only shadowrefuge with SA grants 20 seconds and is not instant. so you got to keep stacking stealth for that 20 seconds , wich again costs resources, be it some cooldowns or in case of thief initative and endurance wich will effect the fight after. further most stealth skills have a visual tell even when used from stealth and you can usually see combo fields used to stack stealth aswell to guess their position or even reveal them with reveal skills or by getting hit with a combo finisher.many people seem to dismiss that everything for stealth, be it traits, utilities or weapon skills / ini / endurance, all of it is an investment. you dont profit from it once your out of stealth so the opener better be worth the investment. that is how gw2 balances stealth. you have lot of options to go stealth, many of them can be countered but they are all of short duration. if you want long stealth you have to invest resources into stealth constantly so you will lack them once your out of stealth.

Perma stealth is still unacceptable since you went stealth even after stomping that guy... How would anyone after his death be able to get a sneeze at you??? You can take out an whole army with that thing and the best thing is you can do it without a scratch unless everyone is inside a reflect bubble and totally spike trapped... This sounds ridiculous... Revealed is supposed to be the smart person's counter, but even that can be easily kicked away like a defenseless puppy with DE... Don't argue that you invest so much on stealth... If you have perma stealth and can only deal 1dmg, that is still OP... Imagine gw2 in future being overrun by DE everywhere and almost everyone ditching all professions and "guild wars" renamed to "DE wars" LOL

you clearly have no clue about how hard it is for a deadeye to kill someone.

It isn't difficult at all. Just because it isn't

effective

doesn't mean that it isn't maximum low effort.

That's like saying permastealth in sPvP is too good because it requires no effort

The point is you aren't doing anything relevant to the game, effort or not

Yes, but that's precisely the point: the spec is engineered to do that. The player is going to be disadvantaged if he/she tries to play DE without dumping out a big, low effort stealth chain onto the field. The user is going to be able to do this. No effort. Whether or not it works is mostly chance, guesswork, and the user somehow not messing up the extremely complicated task of pressing a handful of buttons that are all auto-aimed onto a selected target.

There is zero player-mechanical skill involved. It isn't consistently effective, but considering how little effort a user has to put into this build's main "playstyle," when it

does

work, the user gets a free kill within a handful of seconds for the grand total of waiting around for half a minute before pressing all of 2-3 buttons: no effort; no skill; balanced by chance (RNG).

Yes, he will eventually kill some afk players.

Unfortunately, he's still going to lose all his matches, contribute nothing in wvw, and die to anyone who is able to dodge one obviously telegraphed attack. It's exactly what I said it is: a troll spec that contributes nothing to actually DOING anything

You people keep talking about that one guy he killed after losing 20 matches, but conveniently ignore the 20 losses. That isn't opness, it's bias.

See, that's fine. The rifle isn't the issue for most people it's the unpredictability of the back stab that will land 20k+. The older shadowarts D/p was much easier to guess or counter but with the de traits and stealth on stolen skills you don't need to rely on smoke fields and that's what makes it's pretty hard to guess when the bs comes.

actually the way i play i do rely on smokefields if i stealth for longer. but i can hide the smokefield. thats is maybe an issue.

Can normally hear the smoke fields too. Just that some don't

the sound of the rifle smokefield is not as loud and as not many other use it to stealth most people dont expect it so the chance they will hear it is even lower.i could stealth without smokefield but for that i need to invest in more endurance wich would cost damage or in utility wich would also cost damage.

here an example of a hidden smokefield for those not aware of this :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbhoGbnbxCA

to fix this i suggessted shortly after rework to make snipers cover cast like smokescreen, this would both prevent this invisible smokefield aswell as it would be more useful as a projectile block for the deadeye.

RedShark.9548 · July 20, 2018

@Daishi.6027 said:Testing in Spvp vs ppl you can land about 15 -18k on average depending on malice and if about 15 vuln, vs demo ammy.
This is a little to strong given such a large window of stealth, even if you read it it's kind of one sided, even more so if you take traits to heal up in stealth.
In conquest you'll pretty much lose the point against it, even if you get good hard reads it has to much persistence and you will eventually run out of cool-downs or miss a doge. That isn't exactly fair.
I don't think the damage is imba, but you should have to work for it more. Shouldn't be able to slot that much dmg in one attack when every failed attempt to land hit = go invis, try again, reappearing with full HP. Players need to have the ability to wear this down and win with good reads. Otherwise it is endless until the thief wins.
Sure it may make it's presence known to you, but none of the pressure you can apply including stuns will be strong enough for it to last. You need to 1 shot it on the first couple whiffs or you will die, which wont happen since it is far to easy to escape.

this, exactly this is what im thinking and being honestly salty about all those years im playing and roaming wvw, the mobility and stealth is just too strong, tryong over and over again

Shining One.1635 · July 20, 2018

@Turk.5460 said:You mean the profession that hard counters Thieves?In what way do Rangers hard counter thieves? I'd like a build suggestion for Ranger that leads to dead thieves in the majority of encounters.

oOStaticOo.9467 · July 20, 2018

@Shining One.1635 said:
@Turk.5460 said:You mean the profession that
hard counters
Thieves?In what way do Rangers hard counter thieves? I'd like a build suggestion for Ranger that leads to dead thieves in the majority of encounters.

RIGHT!!! Me too!! Please somebody post a Ranger build that can detect Thieves before they strike you down in one hit or run halfway across the map in .5 seconds with all of their mobility and stealth.

bq pd.2148 · July 20, 2018

@Shining One.1635 said:
@Turk.5460 said:You mean the profession that
hard counters
Thieves?In what way do Rangers hard counter thieves? I'd like a build suggestion for Ranger that leads to dead thieves in the majority of encounters.

there is nothing that will lead to dead thieves in most encounters, if the thieves do not want to fight and prefer to get out of there. yet when a thief actuall engages in the fight, then ranger is indeed in a very good position to kill them.

Shining One.1635 · July 20, 2018

@MUDse.7623 said:there is nothing that will lead to dead thieves in most encounters, if the thieves do not want to fight and prefer to get out of there. yet when a thief actuall engages in the fight, then ranger is indeed in a very good position to kill them.I wouldn't call that a hard counter.

bq pd.2148 · July 20, 2018

@Shining One.1635 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:there is nothing that will lead to dead thieves in most encounters, if the thieves do not want to fight and prefer to get out of there. yet when a thief actuall engages in the fight, then ranger is indeed in a very good position to kill them.I wouldn't call that a hard counter.

i didnt call it a hard counter tho :)i think i am with my deadeye in a better position to kill any thief build then most rangers are in WvW.

Fat Disgrace.4275 · July 20, 2018

@Shining One.1635 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:there is nothing that will lead to dead thieves in most encounters, if the thieves do not want to fight and prefer to get out of there. yet when a thief actuall engages in the fight, then ranger is indeed in a very good position to kill them.I wouldn't call that a hard counter.

I would if we are talking about fighting for objectives like upgraded camps/towers.

bq pd.2148 · July 20, 2018

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
@Shining One.1635 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:there is nothing that will lead to dead thieves in most encounters, if the thieves do not want to fight and prefer to get out of there. yet when a thief actuall engages in the fight, then ranger is indeed in a very good position to kill them.I wouldn't call that a hard counter.

I would if we are talking about fighting for objectives like upgraded camps/towers.

that is correct.for pure pointless killing it is really hard to define hard counters in a way of 'ends with dead X'. because this requires controll over the fight. yet allways the class with the higher mobility and stealth will have the most controll over the fight.

Xolas.9781 · July 20, 2018

Good try OP, but sadly this will never be changed.

GW2 balance has been garbage for a long time and has steadily been getting worse.

Celsith.2753 · July 20, 2018

Nothing has changed regarding this scenario since you originally posted a thread about it in the ranger forum. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/48403/basically-this-is-the-reason-why-sicem-must-be-an-aoe-reveal

Deimos.4263 · July 20, 2018

In this video, the thief got the kill. Ok, fine, it is supposed to be a sniper/one-shotter. There's no counterplay to that, because you're dead.

But...there's also zero counterplay if he screws up, and that does need to be fixed. You can barely even target them in time, let alone attack. No class should be able to jump in, do heavy damage but not kill a target, and get away consequence free to repeat in short order. That's an error, if you pick a target you can't easily take down. You had the advantage of stealth, you got to pick the fight, you messed up, and you should suffer for it. You've still got enough mobility that you might survive.

That said, I don't think thief is the problem. Stealth itself needs some adjusting, because right now, it's not stealth...it's just "poof". There's nothing the least bit stealthy about it. You can run straight up to someone and disappear. There's no cooldown on when you can re-apply stealth, so why be careful? You should at least need to get some distance or lose line of sight before you are able to instantly vanish, not to mention break target lock.

bq pd.2148 · July 20, 2018

not all the answer is specifically at you but more generall so people might get a little behind the idea of the build and why it sometimes looks like it is too good.

@Deimos.4263 said:But...there's also zero counterplay if he screws up, and that does need to be fixed. You can barely even target them in time, let alone attack. No class should be able to jump in, do heavy damage but not kill a target, and get away consequence free to repeat in short order. That's an error, if you pick a target you can't easily take down. You had the advantage of stealth, you got to pick the fight, you messed up, and you should suffer for it. You've still got enough mobility that you might survive.

seems to me you didnt take a look in the battle log to realize that it is just the last 1/3 of the fight ( the fight against the nearby holo was alot quicker ) and you have absolutly no clue about a deadeye. no i cannot spamm 20k hits on a 2,8k armor target.the moment i hit i lose malice. lets say i 'messed up' and it him in the face not the back that would be 10k damage. he would stay there with half life. now i need to build up malice again, so he has again alot of time to counterplay.would you really call it messing up tho if i hit him for 10k ? it would be messed up if i waste my shadow melds thinking this is an easy 1 vs 2 in a buffed opposing camp and then get a nice reveal buff while inside the NPCs. because i dont have much mobility, well i do have short burst mobility with my utility shadow step, if i use that i have no stunbreak for 50 seconds, not advisable with those veteran guards , a HOLO, and a soulbeast. if i use my ini to 'spamm' death retreat wich would only be possible twice with this build as it doesnt use trickery, i would cover 1,2k distance and might not even be out of the soulbeasts range. if i mess up like that, then i have to retreat for considerable time if i can or i will die. but why do people expect me to get punished for them surviving a burst? i mean that like one dude once whispered me that i am a bad deadeye because he dodged my deaths judgement - like WTF, congratz on dodging a skill with one of the biggest tells..if i build EVERYTHING into 1 hit, then yes i would be dead if that hit wouldnt kill. but i didnt invest everything into that. i mean i run shadow arts, the only pure defensive line the thief has, thats alot of damage loss that most thieves are not willing to take. the reason why i still deal high damage is cause of critical strikes wich pretty much only provides damage and no utility compared to DA / Trickery/ Acro. so i have only high damage and improved stealth but few means to counterplay my opponents or to consistently apply damage. i am extremly weak to counterpressure wich makes this deadeye build not really a build that needs high reaction skills as it mostly lacks options or resources to do so even endurance is mostly used up for stealth, this deadeye build is a highly tactical build, you have to be aware of what your opponents can possibly do and avoid giving them the chance to do so. bait reflects, outrange many skills, block projectiles with a snipers cover before you leave stealth, use a position people cant teleport on and abuse their field of view for delayed reaction so they have a shorter window to react wich further helps outranging your opponent. if you do your job right you may indeed appear pretty untouchable to a single opponent, they can still run away because altho it is still a thief this build is terrible at chasing i mean i can keep up a little but then i have nothing to throw at my opponent. yet if my opponent can manipulate me i can die easily. if i am too overconfident or if you use something that i didnt prepare to avoid i am dead really quick.for most it is really hard to kill my build because... tell you how it is in a 1 on 1 you have to suprise the deadeye to kill it. but survivng the build is perfectly possible on most builds. you can build specifically to fight this to improve your chances, but then you will probably not be able to fight like that against anyone else so better hope noone joins the fight. it is a very niche build, might call it a gimmick build but aslong as people try to fight it like any other build it will be very efficient. it is way more important to fight the player then to fight the build when you run into that build.

some call it OP, some call it inefficient and weak. tho both is wrong it is just differnt. it can survive almost everything and most can survive it wich is a balance sort of. it has no overly huge impact in any mode on paper, it is not good in conquest as it is too restricting in space and punishes stealth too much and in WvW well i also cant capture anything while remaining in stealth for most of the time, what makes this build really strong tho in WvW is the opponents reaction to it. they dont ignore it , they insist on killing it and if they dont manage alone they bring half an army wich means i can bind them for quite a while, that makes me really efficient for the mode. i have often keept 5-10 people busy at lords of a keep when i did infiltrate it while my servers zerg could come in without anyone defending against them or calling for reinforcements for example, because i had their attention. or i kept once most of my opponents nightcrew in their home garri for the biggest part of the night because we were able to get in with a zerg at the end of primetime, so i was in there killed occasionaly a half afk scout till they were all in there tryin to get me. i just had to stay stealthed and sometimes mark an opponent so they know i am there. that was really good for the mode, they could have just left and sent in one of their thieves to gank me when i try the lord, they didnt. when i left i felt pretty sorry for them and wave them from outside so they could leave it in peace. the problem there is as said above they try to fight the build not the player, why would i leave stealth and risk my death with so many peopl in there, i wouldnt have the chance to gain anything. but just their presence means i am really efficient for binding them. if they leave i have to go for the lord or leave aswell or i am inefficient. if i go for the lord i am vulnerable and they can kill me with little effort.but as much as i know people in WvW , many simply will never change their behaviour when they see my deadeye so it will allways be strong. not on paper but in practise because people treat us the wrong way.

bq pd.2148 · July 20, 2018

@"Celsith.2753" said:Nothing has changed regarding this scenario since you originally posted a thread about it in the ranger forum. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/48403/basically-this-is-the-reason-why-sicem-must-be-an-aoe-reveal

oh so he posted it in pvp forum and ranger forum nearly same time. intresting to ask for aoe reveal here..reveals are usefull indeed but they are just that usefull, they are not a guranteed kill, wich some seem to expect.. one skill to harcounter an entire build.most reveal skills in use are used for their other effects, with sic em it is mainly the insane damage boost.changing this to a more AoE reveal, might cost the skill in its other effects wich would hurt the ranger more. reveal as such is only worth a utility slot fightin a build depending on stealth wich is well only SA thieves, no other build invests enough in stealth for reveal to be worth it. but as SA thieves are not your most common opponent it is usually better to carry a utility worth fighting others. he didnt know i was there till i attacked him and he was infight. if sic em instead of its current effect would only be a reveal no other effect but instead with 1,2 radius or even little more , then he wouldnt be running it on the bar to begin with and it wouldnt help.also he relies on the sicems damage boost as he has 2,8k armor on a power build with over 20k hp , so thats not much damage without sic em, not sure he would really want a change of sic em to a greater emphasis on the reveal instead of the damage, because then his builds gimmick would be gone and the build would collapse. he then would have much greater issues.

Shagaliscious.6281 · July 20, 2018

The only change they need to make to DE is get rid of that stupid elite skill. Literally the only counter to perma stealth builds is to reveal them....oh wait, the DE can remove that reveal AND stealth at the same time, oh, and it's an ammo skill. Rework the elite or make it a 1 use skill on like a 120sec CD.

bq pd.2148 · July 20, 2018

@Shagaliscious.6281 said:The only change they need to make to DE is get rid of that stupid elite skill. Literally the only counter to perma stealth builds is to reveal them....oh wait, the DE can remove that reveal AND stealth at the same time, oh, and it's an ammo skill. Rework the elite or make it a 1 use skill on like a 120sec CD.

reveal on the current skills is only a threat in outnumbered fights for the deadeye especially if it is from an anti stealth trap as it is undodgeable and applies way too long reveal yet is not practical to use in 1 vs 1.builds that can burst me down 1 vs 1 in 6 seconds usually can do that in the 3 seconds aswell, as i wont just sit there and wait for the 6 seconds to be over, i still have evades, teleports and often am out of your range. to deal damage for 6 seconds my stunbreak has to be on cd and you need to stunlock me but in that case you could aswell deal 6 seconds long damage without a reveal skill just when i come out of stealth and am revealed.i am certain this proposed change of yours wouldnt change any 1 vs 1 fights and outnumbered fights can be avoided, i often go for them still as i too often still get kills, yet if shadow meld gets nerfed i might not really attack too large groups, they already need to be really stupid to let anyone die so i dont care if i cant go for them anymore.most reveals can be avoided alltogether and are more to extend stealth then to get the first hit on the stealthed. if i feel like it is too risky to weave stealth because there are like 3-4 oneshot builds around me that do not require a setup like some guard, FA ele, power mes then i already just remain stealthed and build malice with just marking. they wont run because they are so many they dont really risk a think and then i open straight with a oneshot backstab. so that would be what i would then have to do against more groups because weaving stealth would be riskier. wich would reduce counterplay to me actually because i will be even less visible.

i think what would help more is remove all reveal from skills as they are never picked normally for their reveal anyway and instead make CCing a stealthed player apply reveal for 3 seconds, allways with no cd for everyone. then when you see me dodge into stealth start channeling a cc => right out of stealth again.

Shagaliscious.6281 · July 21, 2018

@MUDse.7623 said:
@Shagaliscious.6281 said:The only change they need to make to DE is get rid of that stupid elite skill. Literally the only counter to perma stealth builds is to reveal them....oh wait, the DE can remove that reveal AND stealth at the same time, oh, and it's an ammo skill. Rework the elite or make it a 1 use skill on like a 120sec CD.

reveal on the current skills is only a threat in outnumbered fights for the deadeye especially if it is from an anti stealth trap as it is undodgeable and applies way too long reveal yet is not practical to use in 1 vs 1.builds that can burst me down 1 vs 1 in 6 seconds usually can do that in the 3 seconds aswell, as i wont just sit there and wait for the 6 seconds to be over, i still have evades, teleports and often am out of your range. to deal damage for 6 seconds my stunbreak has to be on cd and you need to stunlock me but in that case you could aswell deal 6 seconds long damage without a reveal skill just when i come out of stealth and am revealed.i am certain this proposed change of yours wouldnt change any 1 vs 1 fights and outnumbered fights can be avoided, i often go for them still as i too often still get kills, yet if shadow meld gets nerfed i might not really attack too large groups, they already need to be really stupid to let anyone die so i dont care if i cant go for them anymore.most reveals can be avoided alltogether and are more to extend stealth then to get the first hit on the stealthed. if i feel like it is too risky to weave stealth because there are like 3-4 oneshot builds around me that do not require a setup like some guard, FA ele, power mes then i already just remain stealthed and build malice with just marking. they wont run because they are so many they dont really risk a think and then i open straight with a oneshot backstab. so that would be what i would then have to do against more groups because weaving stealth would be riskier. wich would reduce counterplay to me actually because i will be even less visible.

i think what would help more is remove all reveal from skills as they are never picked normally for their reveal anyway and instead make CCing a stealthed player apply reveal for 3 seconds, allways with no cd for everyone. then when you see me dodge into stealth start channeling a cc => right out of stealth again.

So if reveals aren't good and not every class has reveal, why even run that elite? Why not run basilisk venom for an unblockable CC? Easily the best thief elite for any 1v1 scenario, since reveals aren't good any

bq pd.2148 · July 21, 2018

@Shagaliscious.6281 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Shagaliscious.6281 said:The only change they need to make to DE is get rid of that stupid elite skill. Literally the only counter to perma stealth builds is to reveal them....oh wait, the DE can remove that reveal AND stealth at the same time, oh, and it's an ammo skill. Rework the elite or make it a 1 use skill on like a 120sec CD.

reveal on the current skills is only a threat in outnumbered fights for the deadeye especially if it is from an anti stealth trap as it is undodgeable and applies way too long reveal yet is not practical to use in 1 vs 1.builds that can burst me down 1 vs 1 in 6 seconds usually can do that in the 3 seconds aswell, as i wont just sit there and wait for the 6 seconds to be over, i still have evades, teleports and often am out of your range. to deal damage for 6 seconds my stunbreak has to be on cd and you need to stunlock me but in that case you could aswell deal 6 seconds long damage without a reveal skill just when i come out of stealth and am revealed.i am certain this proposed change of yours wouldnt change any 1 vs 1 fights and outnumbered fights can be avoided, i often go for them still as i too often still get kills, yet if shadow meld gets nerfed i might not really attack too large groups, they already need to be really stupid to let anyone die so i dont care if i cant go for them anymore.most reveals can be avoided alltogether and are more to extend stealth then to get the first hit on the stealthed. if i feel like it is too risky to weave stealth because there are like 3-4 oneshot builds around me that do not require a setup like some guard, FA ele, power mes then i already just remain stealthed and build malice with just marking. they wont run because they are so many they dont really risk a think and then i open straight with a oneshot backstab. so that would be what i would then have to do against more groups because weaving stealth would be riskier. wich would reduce counterplay to me actually because i will be even less visible.

i think what would help more is remove all reveal from skills as they are never picked normally for their reveal anyway and instead make CCing a stealthed player apply reveal for 3 seconds, allways with no cd for everyone. then when you see me dodge into stealth start channeling a cc => right out of stealth again.

So if reveals aren't good and not every class has reveal, why even run that elite? Why not run basilisk venom for an unblockable CC? Easily the best thief elite for any 1v1 scenario, since reveals aren't good any

i personally have 2 major reasons for it. 1 is anti stealth traps, i run daily into several of those. and the 2nd reason is for outnumbered fights. see people react to an enemy character often but not to just a dead ally. so if i see a group with a glass ele / thief / mesmer i like to oneshot them right away with a backstab a 1 malice backstab hits them for usually 17-20k if they are glass, then i use shadow meld, their allies especially when i am out their field of view or not fully loading like you see in the OPs video often wont react then so i get time to stomp, wich is one of the more difficult things for a deadeye. if you have cleave you can profit from downs and make a snowballeffect, i dont have cleave so i often need to stomp unless i downed a glass opponent with TRB spamm and still have a malice for a full charged DJ to finish them in downed.but yeah main reason is for anti stealth traps, thats the reason i started DE over DD to begin with. i can play both on stealth power and DD is in many aspects stronger, it can with elite stomp people without them having a downed state wich is really strong in outnumbered fights, yet a stealthy daredevil is way too vulnerable to anti stealth traps as 20 seconds are way too long, if that was 6 seconds that would be a different story, then it wouldnt be such an issue. because also as daredevil i did run into tons of anti stealth traps.

as vor BV its good but not really needed. i have as CC binding shadows wich is alot stronger CC and i dont need unblockable if i just wait till block ends. against warriors and mirages i rarely use CC and i feel like they are most of the opponents i run into, CC is pretty pointless against them and in case of warrior even stupid as i cant crit during balanced stance triggerd by last stand.

Shagaliscious.6281 · July 21, 2018

@MUDse.7623 said:
@Shagaliscious.6281 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Shagaliscious.6281 said:The only change they need to make to DE is get rid of that stupid elite skill. Literally the only counter to perma stealth builds is to reveal them....oh wait, the DE can remove that reveal AND stealth at the same time, oh, and it's an ammo skill. Rework the elite or make it a 1 use skill on like a 120sec CD.

reveal on the current skills is only a threat in outnumbered fights for the deadeye especially if it is from an anti stealth trap as it is undodgeable and applies way too long reveal yet is not practical to use in 1 vs 1.builds that can burst me down 1 vs 1 in 6 seconds usually can do that in the 3 seconds aswell, as i wont just sit there and wait for the 6 seconds to be over, i still have evades, teleports and often am out of your range. to deal damage for 6 seconds my stunbreak has to be on cd and you need to stunlock me but in that case you could aswell deal 6 seconds long damage without a reveal skill just when i come out of stealth and am revealed.i am certain this proposed change of yours wouldnt change any 1 vs 1 fights and outnumbered fights can be avoided, i often go for them still as i too often still get kills, yet if shadow meld gets nerfed i might not really attack too large groups, they already need to be really stupid to let anyone die so i dont care if i cant go for them anymore.most reveals can be avoided alltogether and are more to extend stealth then to get the first hit on the stealthed. if i feel like it is too risky to weave stealth because there are like 3-4 oneshot builds around me that do not require a setup like some guard, FA ele, power mes then i already just remain stealthed and build malice with just marking. they wont run because they are so many they dont really risk a think and then i open straight with a oneshot backstab. so that would be what i would then have to do against more groups because weaving stealth would be riskier. wich would reduce counterplay to me actually because i will be even less visible.

i think what would help more is remove all reveal from skills as they are never picked normally for their reveal anyway and instead make CCing a stealthed player apply reveal for 3 seconds, allways with no cd for everyone. then when you see me dodge into stealth start channeling a cc => right out of stealth again.

So if reveals aren't good and not every class has reveal, why even run that elite? Why not run basilisk venom for an unblockable CC? Easily the best thief elite for any 1v1 scenario, since reveals aren't good any

i personally have 2 major reasons for it. 1 is anti stealth traps, i run daily into several of those. and the 2nd reason is for outnumbered fights. see people react to an enemy character often but not to just a dead ally. so if i see a group with a glass ele / thief / mesmer i like to oneshot them right away with a backstab a 1 malice backstab hits them for usually 17-20k if they are glass, then i use shadow meld, their allies especially when i am out their field of view or not fully loading like you see in the OPs video often wont react then so i get time to stomp, wich is one of the more difficult things for a deadeye. if you have cleave you can profit from downs and make a snowballeffect, i dont have cleave so i often need to stomp unless i downed a glass opponent with TRB spamm and still have a malice for a full charged DJ to finish them in downed.but yeah main reason is for anti stealth traps, thats the reason i started DE over DD to begin with. i can play both on stealth power and DD is in many aspects stronger, it can with elite stomp people without them having a downed state wich is really strong in outnumbered fights, yet a stealthy daredevil is way too vulnerable to anti stealth traps as 20 seconds are way too long, if that was 6 seconds that would be a different story, then it wouldnt be such an issue. because also as daredevil i did run into tons of anti stealth traps.

as vor BV its good but not really needed. i have as CC binding shadows wich is alot stronger CC and i dont need unblockable if i just wait till block ends. against warriors and mirages i rarely use CC and i feel like they are most of the opponents i run into, CC is pretty pointless against them and in case of warrior even stupid as i cant crit during balanced stance triggerd by last stand.

Exactly my point. Literally the only counter to stealth builds is things like reveal traps, and ANET gave thieves a counter to it, on a fucking ammo system no less, it's stupid. Gotta love your multiple paragraphs to my 3 sentence posts too defending your broken elite skill.

bq pd.2148 · July 21, 2018

@Shagaliscious.6281 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Shagaliscious.6281 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Shagaliscious.6281 said:The only change they need to make to DE is get rid of that stupid elite skill. Literally the only counter to perma stealth builds is to reveal them....oh wait, the DE can remove that reveal AND stealth at the same time, oh, and it's an ammo skill. Rework the elite or make it a 1 use skill on like a 120sec CD.

reveal on the current skills is only a threat in outnumbered fights for the deadeye especially if it is from an anti stealth trap as it is undodgeable and applies way too long reveal yet is not practical to use in 1 vs 1.builds that can burst me down 1 vs 1 in 6 seconds usually can do that in the 3 seconds aswell, as i wont just sit there and wait for the 6 seconds to be over, i still have evades, teleports and often am out of your range. to deal damage for 6 seconds my stunbreak has to be on cd and you need to stunlock me but in that case you could aswell deal 6 seconds long damage without a reveal skill just when i come out of stealth and am revealed.i am certain this proposed change of yours wouldnt change any 1 vs 1 fights and outnumbered fights can be avoided, i often go for them still as i too often still get kills, yet if shadow meld gets nerfed i might not really attack too large groups, they already need to be really stupid to let anyone die so i dont care if i cant go for them anymore.most reveals can be avoided alltogether and are more to extend stealth then to get the first hit on the stealthed. if i feel like it is too risky to weave stealth because there are like 3-4 oneshot builds around me that do not require a setup like some guard, FA ele, power mes then i already just remain stealthed and build malice with just marking. they wont run because they are so many they dont really risk a think and then i open straight with a oneshot backstab. so that would be what i would then have to do against more groups because weaving stealth would be riskier. wich would reduce counterplay to me actually because i will be even less visible.

i think what would help more is remove all reveal from skills as they are never picked normally for their reveal anyway and instead make CCing a stealthed player apply reveal for 3 seconds, allways with no cd for everyone. then when you see me dodge into stealth start channeling a cc => right out of stealth again.

So if reveals aren't good and not every class has reveal, why even run that elite? Why not run basilisk venom for an unblockable CC? Easily the best thief elite for any 1v1 scenario, since reveals aren't good any

i personally have 2 major reasons for it. 1 is anti stealth traps, i run daily into several of those. and the 2nd reason is for outnumbered fights. see people react to an enemy character often but not to just a dead ally. so if i see a group with a glass ele / thief / mesmer i like to oneshot them right away with a backstab a 1 malice backstab hits them for usually 17-20k if they are glass, then i use shadow meld, their allies especially when i am out their field of view or not fully loading like you see in the OPs video often wont react then so i get time to stomp, wich is one of the more difficult things for a deadeye. if you have cleave you can profit from downs and make a snowballeffect, i dont have cleave so i often need to stomp unless i downed a glass opponent with TRB spamm and still have a malice for a full charged DJ to finish them in downed.but yeah main reason is for anti stealth traps, thats the reason i started DE over DD to begin with. i can play both on stealth power and DD is in many aspects stronger, it can with elite stomp people without them having a downed state wich is really strong in outnumbered fights, yet a stealthy daredevil is way too vulnerable to anti stealth traps as 20 seconds are way too long, if that was 6 seconds that would be a different story, then it wouldnt be such an issue. because also as daredevil i did run into tons of anti stealth traps.

as vor BV its good but not really needed. i have as CC binding shadows wich is alot stronger CC and i dont need unblockable if i just wait till block ends. against warriors and mirages i rarely use CC and i feel like they are most of the opponents i run into, CC is pretty pointless against them and in case of warrior even stupid as i cant crit during balanced stance triggerd by last stand.

Exactly my point. Literally the only counter to stealth builds is things like reveal traps, and ANET gave thieves a counter to it, on a kitten ammo system no less, it's stupid. Gotta love your multiple paragraphs to my 3 sentence posts too defending your broken elite skill.

yeah but you dont seem to get my point. you wont use an anti stealth trap in a 1 vs 1 yet that is the main reason i need that skill.and yes i am against any pointless change in the game, because it wont change the complains one bit and will cause more and more nerfs till something is nerfed that has actual effect, yet at this point they dont really revert nerfs that didnt get the desired effect. you wont kill more deadeyes with such a change on your own and they certainly will not be more visible.as for the length of my answer i can also reply with 'your have no clue, your just bad', would be as constructive as you posts..

Shagaliscious.6281 · July 21, 2018

@MUDse.7623 said:
@Shagaliscious.6281 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Shagaliscious.6281 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Shagaliscious.6281 said:The only change they need to make to DE is get rid of that stupid elite skill. Literally the only counter to perma stealth builds is to reveal them....oh wait, the DE can remove that reveal AND stealth at the same time, oh, and it's an ammo skill. Rework the elite or make it a 1 use skill on like a 120sec CD.

reveal on the current skills is only a threat in outnumbered fights for the deadeye especially if it is from an anti stealth trap as it is undodgeable and applies way too long reveal yet is not practical to use in 1 vs 1.builds that can burst me down 1 vs 1 in 6 seconds usually can do that in the 3 seconds aswell, as i wont just sit there and wait for the 6 seconds to be over, i still have evades, teleports and often am out of your range. to deal damage for 6 seconds my stunbreak has to be on cd and you need to stunlock me but in that case you could aswell deal 6 seconds long damage without a reveal skill just when i come out of stealth and am revealed.i am certain this proposed change of yours wouldnt change any 1 vs 1 fights and outnumbered fights can be avoided, i often go for them still as i too often still get kills, yet if shadow meld gets nerfed i might not really attack too large groups, they already need to be really stupid to let anyone die so i dont care if i cant go for them anymore.most reveals can be avoided alltogether and are more to extend stealth then to get the first hit on the stealthed. if i feel like it is too risky to weave stealth because there are like 3-4 oneshot builds around me that do not require a setup like some guard, FA ele, power mes then i already just remain stealthed and build malice with just marking. they wont run because they are so many they dont really risk a think and then i open straight with a oneshot backstab. so that would be what i would then have to do against more groups because weaving stealth would be riskier. wich would reduce counterplay to me actually because i will be even less visible.

i think what would help more is remove all reveal from skills as they are never picked normally for their reveal anyway and instead make CCing a stealthed player apply reveal for 3 seconds, allways with no cd for everyone. then when you see me dodge into stealth start channeling a cc => right out of stealth again.

So if reveals aren't good and not every class has reveal, why even run that elite? Why not run basilisk venom for an unblockable CC? Easily the best thief elite for any 1v1 scenario, since reveals aren't good any

i personally have 2 major reasons for it. 1 is anti stealth traps, i run daily into several of those. and the 2nd reason is for outnumbered fights. see people react to an enemy character often but not to just a dead ally. so if i see a group with a glass ele / thief / mesmer i like to oneshot them right away with a backstab a 1 malice backstab hits them for usually 17-20k if they are glass, then i use shadow meld, their allies especially when i am out their field of view or not fully loading like you see in the OPs video often wont react then so i get time to stomp, wich is one of the more difficult things for a deadeye. if you have cleave you can profit from downs and make a snowballeffect, i dont have cleave so i often need to stomp unless i downed a glass opponent with TRB spamm and still have a malice for a full charged DJ to finish them in downed.but yeah main reason is for anti stealth traps, thats the reason i started DE over DD to begin with. i can play both on stealth power and DD is in many aspects stronger, it can with elite stomp people without them having a downed state wich is really strong in outnumbered fights, yet a stealthy daredevil is way too vulnerable to anti stealth traps as 20 seconds are way too long, if that was 6 seconds that would be a different story, then it wouldnt be such an issue. because also as daredevil i did run into tons of anti stealth traps.

as vor BV its good but not really needed. i have as CC binding shadows wich is alot stronger CC and i dont need unblockable if i just wait till block ends. against warriors and mirages i rarely use CC and i feel like they are most of the opponents i run into, CC is pretty pointless against them and in case of warrior even stupid as i cant crit during balanced stance triggerd by last stand.

Exactly my point. Literally the only counter to stealth builds is things like reveal traps, and ANET gave thieves a counter to it, on a kitten ammo system no less, it's stupid. Gotta love your multiple paragraphs to my 3 sentence posts too defending your broken elite skill.

yeah but you dont seem to get my point. you wont use an anti stealth trap in a 1 vs 1 yet that is the main reason i need that skill.and yes i am against any pointless change in the game, because it wont change the complains one bit and will cause more and more nerfs till something is nerfed that has actual effect, yet at this point they dont really revert nerfs that didnt get the desired effect. you wont kill more deadeyes with such a change on your own and they certainly will not be more visible.as for the length of my answer i can also reply with 'your have no clue, your just bad', would be as constructive as you posts..

If nerfing the DE elite won't change anything, stop running it and prove that you can win just as many fights without the elite, since according to you it won't change anything.

bq pd.2148 · July 21, 2018

@Shagaliscious.6281 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Shagaliscious.6281 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Shagaliscious.6281 said:
@MUDse.7623 said:
@Shagaliscious.6281 said:The only change they need to make to DE is get rid of that stupid elite skill. Literally the only counter to perma stealth builds is to reveal them....oh wait, the DE can remove that reveal AND stealth at the same time, oh, and it's an ammo skill. Rework the elite or make it a 1 use skill on like a 120sec CD.