the lack of tanks...

[Cyninja.2954]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Tenray.3175 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:Dont know why anyone thinks chrono needs nerfs. Somethink deserve nerfs if it is overperformig compared to competition and chrono have no competition right now. After next 2 expansions we might start talkingThese kind of sentences make me wonder if some people really have no rational thinking at all. You literally say: "Chrono has no competition, therefore he does not need/deserve any nerfs." .... Like really, what a flaw logic ? #NicolasCageFaceThat is the whole problem, lol. Nerf chrono or buff other classes. Everything is better than the current state.

I am wondering how many people would cry if there would be 10 different tanks but only 1 true dps class because he has no competition.

cough

people crying about thief DE

cough

Actually, beside the fact that you continually resort to name calling and insulting (which does not in any way further your point), what he is saying is that chrono has no competition as far as utility. There is no metric to compare it to hence it can be considered overpowered or simply not having any other class which can be compared to it. In a way chrono with its mechanics is outside the support, tank, dps trinity or combines to many elements of all 3.

If you pair that thought with what was said earlier: that chrono has seen mutiple nerfs already. The only possible solution is what Butcher mentioned: to rework the class because no amount of nerfs is going to make it balanced (unless you want it to be useless, which kind of goes against the entire balance argument).

Now in case of Arenanet not wanting to rework chrono/mesmer AGAIN, another solution would be to use future elite specializations to provide similar utility to of chrono to other classes (or mechanics).

That does not change the fact that there will always be 1 best in role class which people will gravitate to, no matter if its chrono or some other class. That problem will not get solved by either approach.

There is actually a really easy solution for it. Signet of Inspiration does not affect the caster anymore. It doesn't affect chronomancer in any way other than boon sharing without any rework.

We don't need another king of almost all trades.

This leads to 1 of 2 possible outcomes:

• either the boon up-time remains the same, thus all you do is make the rotation insanely harder putting even more pressure on the chrono
• the boon can no longer be kept up permanently thus shifting the meta to a different class or set of classes.

Net result:

• raid groups become more of a chore to create since you now need more support builds
• there still remains 1 meta setup which gets used

I don't see your solution as solution.

The actual solution to this entire dilemma is actually removal of alacrity from the game and there is some interesting discussion on how this would work. Suffice to say, nerfing chronos boon up-time is not "the solution".

[Brynioch.1873]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Tenray.3175 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:Dont know why anyone thinks chrono needs nerfs. Somethink deserve nerfs if it is overperformig compared to competition and chrono have no competition right now. After next 2 expansions we might start talkingThese kind of sentences make me wonder if some people really have no rational thinking at all. You literally say: "Chrono has no competition, therefore he does not need/deserve any nerfs." .... Like really, what a flaw logic ? #NicolasCageFaceThat is the whole problem, lol. Nerf chrono or buff other classes. Everything is better than the current state.

I am wondering how many people would cry if there would be 10 different tanks but only 1 true dps class because he has no competition.

cough

people crying about thief DE

cough

Actually, beside the fact that you continually resort to name calling and insulting (which does not in any way further your point), what he is saying is that chrono has no competition as far as utility. There is no metric to compare it to hence it can be considered overpowered or simply not having any other class which can be compared to it. In a way chrono with its mechanics is outside the support, tank, dps trinity or combines to many elements of all 3.

If you pair that thought with what was said earlier: that chrono has seen mutiple nerfs already. The only possible solution is what Butcher mentioned: to rework the class because no amount of nerfs is going to make it balanced (unless you want it to be useless, which kind of goes against the entire balance argument).

Now in case of Arenanet not wanting to rework chrono/mesmer AGAIN, another solution would be to use future elite specializations to provide similar utility to of chrono to other classes (or mechanics).

That does not change the fact that there will always be 1 best in role class which people will gravitate to, no matter if its chrono or some other class. That problem will not get solved by either approach.

There is actually a really easy solution for it. Signet of Inspiration does not affect the caster anymore. It doesn't affect chronomancer in any way other than boon sharing without any rework.

We don't need another king of almost all trades.

This leads to 1 of 2 possible outcomes:

• either the boon up-time remains the same, thus all you do is make the rotation insanely harder putting even more pressure on the chrono
• the boon can no longer be kept up permanently thus shifting the meta to a different class or set of classes.

Net result:

• raid groups become more of a chore to create since you now need more support builds
• there still remains 1 meta setup which gets used

I don't see your solution as solution.

The actual solution to this entire dilemma is actually removal of alacrity from the game and there is some interesting discussion on how this would work. Suffice to say, nerfing chronos boon up-time is not "the solution".

It would restrict chronomancer to a burst buffer like build for fractals or bosses like KC instead of being the best indefinitely boonshare bot in the game with the most utility baked in . It creates a niche where it can be the best while other specialisations or class combination get their own niches like a combination for longer boss fights.

Of course there will be a new meta. But it doesn't have to be the same class for all situations.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Tenray.3175 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:Dont know why anyone thinks chrono needs nerfs. Somethink deserve nerfs if it is overperformig compared to competition and chrono have no competition right now. After next 2 expansions we might start talkingThese kind of sentences make me wonder if some people really have no rational thinking at all. You literally say: "Chrono has no competition, therefore he does not need/deserve any nerfs." .... Like really, what a flaw logic ? #NicolasCageFaceThat is the whole problem, lol. Nerf chrono or buff other classes. Everything is better than the current state.

I am wondering how many people would cry if there would be 10 different tanks but only 1 true dps class because he has no competition.

cough

people crying about thief DE

cough

Actually, beside the fact that you continually resort to name calling and insulting (which does not in any way further your point), what he is saying is that chrono has no competition as far as utility. There is no metric to compare it to hence it can be considered overpowered or simply not having any other class which can be compared to it. In a way chrono with its mechanics is outside the support, tank, dps trinity or combines to many elements of all 3.

If you pair that thought with what was said earlier: that chrono has seen mutiple nerfs already. The only possible solution is what Butcher mentioned: to rework the class because no amount of nerfs is going to make it balanced (unless you want it to be useless, which kind of goes against the entire balance argument).

Now in case of Arenanet not wanting to rework chrono/mesmer AGAIN, another solution would be to use future elite specializations to provide similar utility to of chrono to other classes (or mechanics).

That does not change the fact that there will always be 1 best in role class which people will gravitate to, no matter if its chrono or some other class. That problem will not get solved by either approach.

There is actually a really easy solution for it. Signet of Inspiration does not affect the caster anymore. It doesn't affect chronomancer in any way other than boon sharing without any rework.

We don't need another king of almost all trades.

This leads to 1 of 2 possible outcomes:

• either the boon up-time remains the same, thus all you do is make the rotation insanely harder putting even more pressure on the chrono
• the boon can no longer be kept up permanently thus shifting the meta to a different class or set of classes.

Net result:

• raid groups become more of a chore to create since you now need more support builds
• there still remains 1 meta setup which gets used

I don't see your solution as solution.

The actual solution to this entire dilemma is actually removal of alacrity from the game and there is some interesting discussion on how this would work. Suffice to say, nerfing chronos boon up-time is not "the solution".

It would restrict chronomancer to a burst buffer like build for fractals or bosses like KC instead of being the best indefinitely boonshare bot in the game with the most utility baked in . It creates a niche where it can be the best while other specialisations or class combination get their own niches like a combination for longer boss fights.

Of course there will be a new meta. But it doesn't have to be the same class for all situations.

Then what is the reason to play chrono at all? You can get most buffs for short period of time on classes that provide much higer dps. Not to mention that whole raid would lost 30 percen of dps so again every class would be nerfed. If you are speaking about other boons then quickness and alacrity it doesnt rly matter.

Right now there are 4 builds for chronomancer. Domination, Chaos, Illusions and Dueling/illusions. As i said, its not about 1 think that is OP on chrono but very good things combined.Remove chaos boons -> you still have 3 options left.Remove uptime -> domination fix thatRemove cc options -> Duealing/illusions for maximum dps (since you dont have to use any other elite skill)

You have it wrong guys, there is not only 1 tank but 4. They are the same class and elite spec. Each of them favor diferent kind of boss. If you want some option to be replaced then you need to provide a build that does anything that build provides better. Right now only option is firebrand for quickness but sadly mantras dont prioritize subsquad members first so literaly there is no option. Fix mantra and on some bosses (like MO) Firebrand+renegade outdps normal setup. Especialy with thiefs providing all boons.

Tell me when there were more then 4 diferent dps options that each were best at at least one boss.

[Brynioch.1873]

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Tenray.3175 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Dont know why anyone thinks chrono needs nerfs. Somethink deserve nerfs if it is overperformig compared to competition and chrono have no competition right now. After next 2 expansions we might start talkingThese kind of sentences make me wonder if some people really have no rational thinking at all. You literally say: "Chrono has no competition, therefore he does not need/deserve any nerfs." .... Like really, what a flaw logic ? #NicolasCageFaceThat is the whole problem, lol. Nerf chrono or buff other classes. Everything is better than the current state.

I am wondering how many people would cry if there would be 10 different tanks but only 1 true dps class because he has no competition.

cough

people crying about thief DE

cough

Actually, beside the fact that you continually resort to name calling and insulting (which does not in any way further your point), what he is saying is that chrono has no competition as far as utility. There is no metric to compare it to hence it can be considered overpowered or simply not having any other class which can be compared to it. In a way chrono with its mechanics is outside the support, tank, dps trinity or combines to many elements of all 3.

If you pair that thought with what was said earlier: that chrono has seen mutiple nerfs already. The only possible solution is what Butcher mentioned: to rework the class because no amount of nerfs is going to make it balanced (unless you want it to be useless, which kind of goes against the entire balance argument).

Now in case of Arenanet not wanting to rework chrono/mesmer AGAIN, another solution would be to use future elite specializations to provide similar utility to of chrono to other classes (or mechanics).

That does not change the fact that there will always be 1 best in role class which people will gravitate to, no matter if its chrono or some other class. That problem will not get solved by either approach.

There is actually a really easy solution for it. Signet of Inspiration does not affect the caster anymore. It doesn't affect chronomancer in any way other than boon sharing without any rework.

We don't need another king of almost all trades.

This leads to 1 of 2 possible outcomes:

• either the boon up-time remains the same, thus all you do is make the rotation insanely harder putting even more pressure on the chrono
• the boon can no longer be kept up permanently thus shifting the meta to a different class or set of classes.

Net result:

• raid groups become more of a chore to create since you now need more support builds
• there still remains 1 meta setup which gets used

I don't see your solution as solution.

The actual solution to this entire dilemma is actually removal of alacrity from the game and there is some interesting discussion on how this would work. Suffice to say, nerfing chronos boon up-time is not "the solution".

It would restrict chronomancer to a burst buffer like build for fractals or bosses like KC instead of being the best indefinitely boonshare bot in the game with the most utility baked in . It creates a niche where it can be the best while other specialisations or class combination get their own niches like a combination for longer boss fights.

Of course there will be a new meta. But it doesn't have to be the same class for all situations.

Then what is the reason to play chrono at all? You can get most buffs for short period of time on classes that provide much higer dps. Not to mention that whole raid would lost 30 percen of dps so again every class would be nerfed. If you are speaking about other boons then quickness and alacrity it doesnt rly matter.

Right now there are 4 builds for chronomancer. Domination, Chaos, Illusions and Dueling/illusions. As i said, its not about 1 think that is OP on chrono but very good things combined.Remove chaos boons -> you still have 3 options left.Remove uptime -> domination fix thatRemove cc options -> Duealing/illusions for maximum dps (since you dont have to use any other elite skill)

You have it wrong guys, there is not only 1 tank but 4. They are the same class and elite spec. Each of them favor diferent kind of boss. If you want some option to be replaced then you need to provide a build that does anything that build provides better. Right now only option is firebrand for quickness but sadly mantras dont prioritize subsquad members first so literaly there is no option. Fix mantra and on some bosses (like MO) Firebrand+renegade outdps normal setup. Especialy with thiefs providing all boons.

Tell me when there were more then 4 diferent dps options that each were best at at least one boss.

So there is one tank that can specialize in different things. Still one tank.

The other 2 classes occupy 2 slots, not one for boons while don't have portals, less CC, worse pull. The other benefits of chronomancer don't magically disappear of you nerf the boon share.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Tenray.3175 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Dont know why anyone thinks chrono needs nerfs. Somethink deserve nerfs if it is overperformig compared to competition and chrono have no competition right now. After next 2 expansions we might start talkingThese kind of sentences make me wonder if some people really have no rational thinking at all. You literally say: "Chrono has no competition, therefore he does not need/deserve any nerfs." .... Like really, what a flaw logic ? #NicolasCageFaceThat is the whole problem, lol. Nerf chrono or buff other classes. Everything is better than the current state.

I am wondering how many people would cry if there would be 10 different tanks but only 1 true dps class because he has no competition.

cough

people crying about thief DE

cough

Actually, beside the fact that you continually resort to name calling and insulting (which does not in any way further your point), what he is saying is that chrono has no competition as far as utility. There is no metric to compare it to hence it can be considered overpowered or simply not having any other class which can be compared to it. In a way chrono with its mechanics is outside the support, tank, dps trinity or combines to many elements of all 3.

If you pair that thought with what was said earlier: that chrono has seen mutiple nerfs already. The only possible solution is what Butcher mentioned: to rework the class because no amount of nerfs is going to make it balanced (unless you want it to be useless, which kind of goes against the entire balance argument).

Now in case of Arenanet not wanting to rework chrono/mesmer AGAIN, another solution would be to use future elite specializations to provide similar utility to of chrono to other classes (or mechanics).

That does not change the fact that there will always be 1 best in role class which people will gravitate to, no matter if its chrono or some other class. That problem will not get solved by either approach.

There is actually a really easy solution for it. Signet of Inspiration does not affect the caster anymore. It doesn't affect chronomancer in any way other than boon sharing without any rework.

We don't need another king of almost all trades.

This leads to 1 of 2 possible outcomes:

• either the boon up-time remains the same, thus all you do is make the rotation insanely harder putting even more pressure on the chrono
• the boon can no longer be kept up permanently thus shifting the meta to a different class or set of classes.

Net result:

• raid groups become more of a chore to create since you now need more support builds
• there still remains 1 meta setup which gets used

I don't see your solution as solution.

The actual solution to this entire dilemma is actually removal of alacrity from the game and there is some interesting discussion on how this would work. Suffice to say, nerfing chronos boon up-time is not "the solution".

It would restrict chronomancer to a burst buffer like build for fractals or bosses like KC instead of being the best indefinitely boonshare bot in the game with the most utility baked in . It creates a niche where it can be the best while other specialisations or class combination get their own niches like a combination for longer boss fights.

Of course there will be a new meta. But it doesn't have to be the same class for all situations.

Then what is the reason to play chrono at all? You can get most buffs for short period of time on classes that provide much higer dps. Not to mention that whole raid would lost 30 percen of dps so again every class would be nerfed. If you are speaking about other boons then quickness and alacrity it doesnt rly matter.

Right now there are 4 builds for chronomancer. Domination, Chaos, Illusions and Dueling/illusions. As i said, its not about 1 think that is OP on chrono but very good things combined.Remove chaos boons -> you still have 3 options left.Remove uptime -> domination fix thatRemove cc options -> Duealing/illusions for maximum dps (since you dont have to use any other elite skill)

You have it wrong guys, there is not only 1 tank but 4. They are the same class and elite spec. Each of them favor diferent kind of boss. If you want some option to be replaced then you need to provide a build that does anything that build provides better. Right now only option is firebrand for quickness but sadly mantras dont prioritize subsquad members first so literaly there is no option. Fix mantra and on some bosses (like MO) Firebrand+renegade outdps normal setup. Especialy with thiefs providing all boons.

Tell me when there were more then 4 diferent dps options that each were best at at least one boss.

So there is one tank that can specialize in different things. Still one tank.

The other 2 classes occupy 2 slots, not one for boons while don't have portals, less CC, worse pull. The other benefits of chronomancer don't magically disappear of you nerf the boon share.

No they don't, but there is other classes which can take over the tank role (heal tempest, heal druid, heal revenant, etc.) and role compress in such a way that chrono is not needed as tank thus not needed in the meta if firebrand and renegade take over dps/boon roles. On top of having now more support classes required which makes the entire raid build process harder.

Which part of role compression in meta setups does not make sense?

At best you lose 1 slot for a tank (in case chrono still gets to tank), which still leaves the raid group 1 dps short. While that would make sense to reduce power creep and re-balance the raids towards more a higher difficulty, I doubt many people would enjoy that. There is a 96+ page thread about easy mode raids right below this one.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Tenray.3175 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Dont know why anyone thinks chrono needs nerfs. Somethink deserve nerfs if it is overperformig compared to competition and chrono have no competition right now. After next 2 expansions we might start talkingThese kind of sentences make me wonder if some people really have no rational thinking at all. You literally say: "Chrono has no competition, therefore he does not need/deserve any nerfs." .... Like really, what a flaw logic ? #NicolasCageFaceThat is the whole problem, lol. Nerf chrono or buff other classes. Everything is better than the current state.

I am wondering how many people would cry if there would be 10 different tanks but only 1 true dps class because he has no competition.

cough

people crying about thief DE

cough

Actually, beside the fact that you continually resort to name calling and insulting (which does not in any way further your point), what he is saying is that chrono has no competition as far as utility. There is no metric to compare it to hence it can be considered overpowered or simply not having any other class which can be compared to it. In a way chrono with its mechanics is outside the support, tank, dps trinity or combines to many elements of all 3.

If you pair that thought with what was said earlier: that chrono has seen mutiple nerfs already. The only possible solution is what Butcher mentioned: to rework the class because no amount of nerfs is going to make it balanced (unless you want it to be useless, which kind of goes against the entire balance argument).

Now in case of Arenanet not wanting to rework chrono/mesmer AGAIN, another solution would be to use future elite specializations to provide similar utility to of chrono to other classes (or mechanics).

That does not change the fact that there will always be 1 best in role class which people will gravitate to, no matter if its chrono or some other class. That problem will not get solved by either approach.

There is actually a really easy solution for it. Signet of Inspiration does not affect the caster anymore. It doesn't affect chronomancer in any way other than boon sharing without any rework.

We don't need another king of almost all trades.

This leads to 1 of 2 possible outcomes:

• either the boon up-time remains the same, thus all you do is make the rotation insanely harder putting even more pressure on the chrono
• the boon can no longer be kept up permanently thus shifting the meta to a different class or set of classes.

Net result:

• raid groups become more of a chore to create since you now need more support builds
• there still remains 1 meta setup which gets used

I don't see your solution as solution.

The actual solution to this entire dilemma is actually removal of alacrity from the game and there is some interesting discussion on how this would work. Suffice to say, nerfing chronos boon up-time is not "the solution".

It would restrict chronomancer to a burst buffer like build for fractals or bosses like KC instead of being the best indefinitely boonshare bot in the game with the most utility baked in . It creates a niche where it can be the best while other specialisations or class combination get their own niches like a combination for longer boss fights.

Of course there will be a new meta. But it doesn't have to be the same class for all situations.

Then what is the reason to play chrono at all? You can get most buffs for short period of time on classes that provide much higer dps. Not to mention that whole raid would lost 30 percen of dps so again every class would be nerfed. If you are speaking about other boons then quickness and alacrity it doesnt rly matter.

Right now there are 4 builds for chronomancer. Domination, Chaos, Illusions and Dueling/illusions. As i said, its not about 1 think that is OP on chrono but very good things combined.Remove chaos boons -> you still have 3 options left.Remove uptime -> domination fix thatRemove cc options -> Duealing/illusions for maximum dps (since you dont have to use any other elite skill)

You have it wrong guys, there is not only 1 tank but 4. They are the same class and elite spec. Each of them favor diferent kind of boss. If you want some option to be replaced then you need to provide a build that does anything that build provides better. Right now only option is firebrand for quickness but sadly mantras dont prioritize subsquad members first so literaly there is no option. Fix mantra and on some bosses (like MO) Firebrand+renegade outdps normal setup. Especialy with thiefs providing all boons.

Tell me when there were more then 4 diferent dps options that each were best at at least one boss.

So there is one tank that can specialize in different things. Still one tank.

The other 2 classes occupy 2 slots, not one for boons while don't have portals, less CC, worse pull. The other benefits of chronomancer don't magically disappear of you nerf the boon share.

Is power deadeye And power daredevil.same dps? Is (was) arcane weaver and air weaver same dps?

And btw support renegade is at 32k on big hitbox and quickness condi firebrand at 27k.If best dps right now is deadeye at 39k then firebrand and renegade is 5k ahead of deadeye and dueling/illusion chrono on big hitbox.

On mo you lose some dps as ren and you dont care about boons since thief steal them.

True, mesmers advantagas dont magicaly dissapear without boons but they are no longer repevant. If you need heals you dont puck something that can only heal. You will not take chrono for cc, boonstrip and pulls when you can take actual dps that can do that. And for portals you can take dps mirage

[TamX.1870]

@"darksoverign.5360" said:We have literally 1 tank class in the game and its a kittening cloth class.. why.. just why!...

In Holy Trinity games, there is three roles you fill: 1 tank, 1-2 healers, and rest are DPS. In Holy Trinity (later: HT) games, if they have well designed instances, they require more than 1 tank, more than 1-2 healers and so on. OK. But the whole tank concept is based on purposely made flawnesses in mob AI design (that is, threat generation). It might be a good tool for PvE content with limited resources, but because tank concept is up to implementation of mob AI algorithms, it will generate lots of problems in other fronts, and severly limit the options you have in instance design.

As I said in some thread before, I'd say no to tank concept as a class ability. I would tie it to PvE instance mechanics. There would be a Mistlock Singularity kind of prop you activate, and it would make you a "tank" in such way, that it would replace the normal AI used by mobs, making them to hit you even if their other targetting systems would suggest something else. With this kind of concept, you would have a great freedom to design PvE instances so, that people would need to consider who would take the tank role. In traditional HT games, tanks get health & armor boosts, and the idea is that no-one else than the tank can sustain the hits from the mobs - this is totally artificial, and severely limits the instance design, as we know. It would be better, that depending on the fight, the one that chooses to bypass normal mob targeting (by activating something, not by making a build for that) could either:

(1) get a significant boost to health + armor, to overcome the mobs hitting so hard that you can't stay alive with the boost (making these people the regular HT game tanks by taking aggro and having superior health & armor to sustain it), or

(2) get a weakness: the one that is taking the hits, could suffer a debuff (condition) getting stronger when the time passes by, or

(3) get an ability to attract certain types of enemies to her/him, to allow regular multi-tank instances common to HT games, or

(4) anything in between: you could implement tank-switching by applying related special skill to those ones choosing to be "aggro-magnets", you could add a complex chain of buffs and debuffs related to that, you would have a complete freedom to make very, very complex, challenging and satisfying instances, unlike HT games have (as we know, many times people in those games strive for non-tank groups, just because tank classes only bring the ability to modify mob targeting)

So: absolute no for tank classes. Absolute yes to tie tanking concept to instance design to make the instances more thrilling and giving people more options for the team formation how to beat the mechanical circus (=PvE).

if a plate class doesn't get a bloody tanking spec in the next expansion I'm really going to be worried for the future of this game.

If GW2 gets a tank concept outside PvE instances, I start to be worried, because I have seen where it leads.

---

EDIT: So far, I have not seen that GW2 has problem in lacking tanking class, but much more in designing refreshing PvE instance content. If any of the GW2 dev team is reading this, heck yes, you have all the freedom, and you really could make them lots more interesting. Mainly now referring to fractals and fractal bosses. There are lots of good ideas around, take them further, make the teams to decide who plays what role in that instance, go thinking out-of-GW2-box to design how these mechanical circuses work! Honestly! You have all the freedom to copy the HT instance mechanics to this game just by implementing tank concept like suggestion number 1 explains, or making it far more complex with other suggestions. It would be something a HT game could ever adopt, something very unique to GW2 only, without breaking landscape, landscape soloing, no effects to sPvP, to tournaments or to WvW.

[tekfan.3179]

Honestly, I'd be happy if we even had a clue on the plans the devs have for roles and professions in general.It's like they want to make the roles special at some points, yet other points have to remain a grey standard mush along all professions.Weaver(ele in general) has a long history of being the dps-meta, recently epi-scourges joined the ranks for some time, then thief had a comeback. They nerfed the ele down to about the same dps other classes do and toned down their recent improvements to scourge and deadeye.I didn't see them address survivability on classes where they toned the dps down, only bugs and dps.

Guild Wars 2 was meant to be a game without trinity, yet the ele feels like they design it solely around the dps-role in raids, where it has buffs and a tank to keep the damage from it. They gave mesmers unique buffs, rangers and warriors have unique placables and for all other classes I mostly see dps-adjustments.If this goes on, they should simply ditch the differing hp-pools and armor-ratings.

[TamX.1870]

@tekfan.3179 said:Weaver(ele in general) has a long history of being the dps-meta, recently epi-scourges joined the ranks for some time, then thief had a comeback. They nerfed the ele down to about the same dps other classes do and toned down their recent improvements to scourge and deadeye.

In general, yes. Ele - at least in weaver specs - still maintains high DPS in PvE, while those PvE builds are usually totally useless in PvP side, except large scale fights, where ele's high range positional skills still have some use. Scourge hit probably the most DH - before PoF, DH was the one to play positional game in sPvP, but scourge is (IMO) far superior in that. Deadeye may threaten to many ranged ranger builds, and stir a bit bunker builds, but can't really see it game-changing.

Guild Wars 2 was meant to be a game without trinity, yet the ele feels like they design it solely around the dps-role in raids, where it has buffs and a tank to keep the damage from it. They gave mesmers unique buffs, rangers and warriors have unique placables and for all other classes I mostly see dps-adjustments.

Let's forget PvP for a moment. If ele can play any role in PvE raids / fractals, it is usually just enough to justify the existence of a class. If ele is at best when dealing DPS, don't matter IMO that much. If ele could also bring all the needed buffs and heal better than any other class, we would have a raid/fractal meta suggesring ele-only teams And I would think that would not be that healthy...

[tekfan.3179]

@TamX.1870 said:

@tekfan.3179 said:Weaver(ele in general) has a long history of being the dps-meta, recently epi-scourges joined the ranks for some time, then thief had a comeback. They nerfed the ele down to about the same dps other classes do and toned down their recent improvements to scourge and deadeye.

In general, yes. Ele - at least in weaver specs - still maintains high DPS in PvE, while those PvE builds are usually totally useless in PvP side, except large scale fights, where ele's high range positional skills still have some use. Scourge hit probably the most DH - before PoF, DH was the one to play positional game in sPvP, but scourge is (IMO) far superior in that. Deadeye may threaten to many ranged ranger builds, and stir a bit bunker builds, but can't really see it game-changing.

Guild Wars 2 was meant to be a game without trinity, yet the ele feels like they design it solely around the dps-role in raids, where it has buffs and a tank to keep the damage from it. They gave mesmers unique buffs, rangers and warriors have unique placables and for all other classes I mostly see dps-adjustments.

Let's forget PvP for a moment. If ele can play any role in PvE raids / fractals, it is usually just enough to justify the existence of a class. If ele is at best when dealing DPS, don't matter IMO that much. If ele could also bring all the needed buffs and heal better than any other class, we would have a raid/fractal meta suggesring ele-only teams And I would think that would not be that healthy...

I was actually talking about PvE.In the group content like fractals or raids, eles greatly profit from the buffs, someone else tanking the damage instead of them or purging their conditions. But once you run without those buffs, the ele loses a lot of its dps. With the low health the ele is especially vulnerable to conditions and with its low armor, you're very squishy. Mind that I'm talking about the PvE-metas without vitality or toughness. I kinda have to, since the classes seem to be balanced around this for PvE.Now the ele loses damage, which happens to be also a part of it's defenses in PvE: Take something down before it takes you down.I've dragged several classes through the personal story. My ele is my main-character and it often baffles me how easy the story plays on other classes, regarding survival.

I'm not saying the ele should be able to fill all the roles(at least not with the same gear, specialization and build), but I'd greatly appreciate it if people wouldn't just go nuts about the dps the class does while being buffed like crazy, casting the spells on a non-moving, non-attacking target with a hitbox-size you may only find on world-bosses.If all berserker-metas get balanced around the dps they dish out, other mechanics and stats shouldn't stay the same either.

If a class gets balanced around the fact that it shouldn't make other classes obsolete in a specific role, it should be kept in mind that besaid class has other roles and specs that may be affected by overall mechanics.

[LadyKitty.6120]

The problem isn't that there isn't classes that could tank effectively but community being so effin stuck to "Only chrono can tank 'cause big bois said so!"-attitude. Hell, Kitty's proven that you can effectively tank most bosses in W1-W4 (and W5 also have various tank builds for SH) on any healer-build without losing anything. Just requires a tiny bit more skill than chrono due to 1-2 less evades/blocks. And also, some condiclasses (warr, FB, rene, scourge) don't lose anything but a few k DPS from wearing trailblazer's instead of viper's, same with power reaper and DH (due to heavily over-capping crit. with zerker's so mixing knight's and zerker to have highest toughness isn't much of a DPS loss if off-chronos are wearing proper off-chrono gears ).

To tell something about it, Kitty tried to join some Deimos squads with "Deimos LF Tank" as tank/healengi yesterday, just to hear that only chronos can tank and thus Kitty left the squad and those squads changed their LFG's to "Deimos LF Tank Chrono". And tbh, only thing Kitty's engi lacks is aegis share to oilkiter (which shouldn't even be needed if oilkiter has any clue about their job) while her build doesn't move an inch while tanking MC and pizzas while it can also bring some might, quickness (Toss Elixir U), regen, vigor and swiftness to squad while tanking in ranged strat. And heals. Quite a good bit of heals due to having excessive self-sustain. And quite a many pug squads could use those heals with 50% Saul.

[Blue.1207]

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:The problem isn't that there isn't classes that could tank effectively but community being so effin stuck to "Only chrono can tank 'cause big bois said so!"-attitude. Hell, Kitty's proven that you can effectively tank most bosses in W1-W4 (and W5 also have various tank builds for SH) on any healer-build without losing anything. Just requires a tiny bit more skill than chrono due to 1-2 less evades/blocks. And also, some condiclasses (warr, FB, rene, scourge) don't lose anything but a few k DPS from wearing trailblazer's instead of viper's, same with power reaper and DH (due to heavily over-capping crit. with zerker's so mixing knight's and zerker to have highest toughness isn't much of a DPS loss if off-chronos are wearing proper off-chrono gears ).

To tell something about it, Kitty tried to join some Deimos squads with "Deimos LF Tank" as tank/healengi yesterday, just to hear that only chronos can tank and thus Kitty left the squad and those squads changed their LFG's to "Deimos LF Tank Chrono". And tbh, only thing Kitty's engi lacks is aegis share to oilkiter (which shouldn't even be needed if oilkiter has any clue about their job) while her build doesn't move an inch while tanking MC and pizzas while it can also bring some might, quickness (Toss Elixir U), regen, vigor and swiftness to squad while tanking in ranged strat. And heals. Quite a good bit of heals due to having excessive self-sustain. And quite a many pug squads could use those heals with 50% Saul.

Kitty and her group can bring (literally) any class they want to perform any role. It's the group leaders decision to chose who is allowed in the group and for what role. Entire wings have been completed using offmeta, cheeze, underperforming or with less than 10 people. Tell Kitty to make their own damn group and play whatever role they want.

[zealex.9410]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Glott.7239 said:Now i think we can all agree that Chrono boon spam needs to get nerfed bigtime.

Do we?

Don't get me wrong, I fully support and agree that people want multiple tank specs and possibilities, I'm just wondering if everyone asking for chrono nerfs has thought this through to the end. If we operate under following assumptions:

• there will always be 1 class which best performs a certain role
• the limiting factor in raid setups is currently the support classes
• the most flexibility for a meta group will be at best for damage builds
• the more support classes take up spots, the less place for damage classes there is thus making encounters harder
• having multiple different setups for different bosses forces people to play more than 1 class

Given all those factors, is nerfing chrono REALLY in the best interest for PUG raids or semi casual raid groups? Not talking static or very hardcore groups since those will always adapt and use the most powerful tools.

Let us assume chrono got nerfed so far that a new tank were required (which would be more than fine from a balance point of view), here is the likely scenario as to how it will unfold given current balance:

A.)

which ever class best role compresses the most abilities with being able to tank will become the future tank. It is highly unlikely that multiple classes will be equally good at this, thus 1 new tank will become meta

B.)

should the new meta tank from A not be the best tank for all bosses, a second tank for bosses were the first tank does not work would get picked. Effectively now raid groups need to use 2 different tanks to clear all raid wings. This is immense extra effort and coordination for PUG and semi-static groups compared to now. Imagine Deimos or Dhuum with their unique roles given to party members just for multiple bosses

C.)

if the meta shifts from 4 support classes back to 5 (as it was during HoT), the pressure on damage dealers will again be higher thus making possible damage choices more restrictive once again

The net result is a more complex, more effort requiring meta and group composition. Please realize 1 thing:

class balance and ease of raids as well as accessibility are two very different things

Disclaimer: I'm not protecting chrono because I main the class. I've mained mesmer since the beginning of the game through all of its bugs, under powered pve messes, etc. I have multiple characters of every class fully geared and have legendary armor and ascended armor coming out of my ears (12 sets, 7k magnitite shards, etc.). I'm fine with switching to any other tank, support or damage dealer as need be (and I don't only play chrono to begin with as every raider should at least play 3 classes minimum). I'm just not buying into the entire: once chrono is nerfed all will be well kitten that some people are selling.

Unfortunately, chrono needs to get toned down and once that happens it will either get replaced by something more effective, or the raid meta will become more restrictive once again. Be aware of that.

As far as viable tanks which can do the job, there is a few and the most effective ones have been mentioned in this thread.

Having multiple choices for tanks wont be that bad, everyone has been asking anet to do it for dps for years and now we are quite close to that and its nice.

Nerfing chrono but only just so that its not leaps and bounds superior will outweight the negatives of having to prob run more than 1 classes. Elite specs will keep increasing we cant just stay with the support spot being locked for chrono.

[zealex.9410]

A rev/firebrand combo can already provide alac and quickness. Yet ppl will still pick chrono because it doesnt need 2 classes to do 1 thing. It also comes with an insane amount of other boons and cc.

[Cyninja.2954]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Glott.7239" said:Now i think we can all agree that Chrono boon spam needs to get nerfed bigtime.

Do we?

Don't get me wrong, I fully support and agree that people want multiple tank specs and possibilities, I'm just wondering if everyone asking for chrono nerfs has thought this through to the end. If we operate under following assumptions:

• there will always be 1 class which best performs a certain role
• the limiting factor in raid setups is currently the support classes
• the most flexibility for a meta group will be at best for damage builds
• the more support classes take up spots, the less place for damage classes there is thus making encounters harder
• having multiple different setups for different bosses forces people to play more than 1 class

Given all those factors, is nerfing chrono REALLY in the best interest for PUG raids or semi casual raid groups? Not talking static or very hardcore groups since those will always adapt and use the most powerful tools.

Let us assume chrono got nerfed so far that a new tank were required (which would be more than fine from a balance point of view), here is the likely scenario as to how it will unfold given current balance:

A.)

which ever class best role compresses the most abilities with being able to tank will become the future tank. It is highly unlikely that multiple classes will be equally good at this, thus 1 new tank will become meta

B.)

should the new meta tank from A not be the best tank for all bosses, a second tank for bosses were the first tank does not work would get picked. Effectively now raid groups need to use 2 different tanks to clear all raid wings. This is immense extra effort and coordination for PUG and semi-static groups compared to now. Imagine Deimos or Dhuum with their unique roles given to party members just for multiple bosses

C.)

if the meta shifts from 4 support classes back to 5 (as it was during HoT), the pressure on damage dealers will again be higher thus making possible damage choices more restrictive once again

The net result is a more complex, more effort requiring meta and group composition. Please realize 1 thing:

class balance and ease of raids as well as accessibility are two very different things

Disclaimer: I'm not protecting chrono because I main the class. I've mained mesmer since the beginning of the game through all of its bugs, under powered pve messes, etc. I have multiple characters of every class fully geared and have legendary armor and ascended armor coming out of my ears (12 sets, 7k magnitite shards, etc.). I'm fine with switching to any other tank, support or damage dealer as need be (and I don't only play chrono to begin with as every raider should at least play 3 classes minimum). I'm just not buying into the entire: once chrono is nerfed all will be well kitten that some people are selling.

Unfortunately, chrono needs to get toned down and once that happens it will either get replaced by something more effective, or the raid meta will become more restrictive once again. Be aware of that.

As far as viable tanks which can do the job, there is a few and the most effective ones have been mentioned in this thread.

Having multiple choices for tanks wont be that bad, everyone has been asking anet to do it for dps for years and now we are quite close to that and its nice.

Nerfing chrono but only just so that its not leaps and bounds superior will outweight the negatives of having to prob run more than 1 classes. Elite specs will keep increasing we cant just stay with the support spot being locked for chrono.

There is no pure "tank role". There is damage, boons and heal (if needed) and which ever class can provide one of those 3 aspects the best while tanking (thus giving up the least amount of stat points while providing one of those 3 roles) is tank. For the bazillionth time, it's called role compression.

Chrono is not a "tank". Chrono is a boon support first and gets to play tank on some boss fights since there is few downsides to one of the chronos taking gear with toughness on it (since his boon up-time is almost not affected). Nerf the boon support of chrono and he drops out of the meta (which can be discussed but that's not the issue here). There is no:"this class will remain as tank" in this game. You have to bring one of the 3 aforementioned aspects.

[zealex.9410]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Glott.7239" said:Now i think we can all agree that Chrono boon spam needs to get nerfed bigtime.

Do we?

Don't get me wrong, I fully support and agree that people want multiple tank specs and possibilities, I'm just wondering if everyone asking for chrono nerfs has thought this through to the end. If we operate under following assumptions:

• there will always be 1 class which best performs a certain role
• the limiting factor in raid setups is currently the support classes
• the most flexibility for a meta group will be at best for damage builds
• the more support classes take up spots, the less place for damage classes there is thus making encounters harder
• having multiple different setups for different bosses forces people to play more than 1 class

Given all those factors, is nerfing chrono REALLY in the best interest for PUG raids or semi casual raid groups? Not talking static or very hardcore groups since those will always adapt and use the most powerful tools.

Let us assume chrono got nerfed so far that a new tank were required (which would be more than fine from a balance point of view), here is the likely scenario as to how it will unfold given current balance:

A.)

which ever class best role compresses the most abilities with being able to tank will become the future tank. It is highly unlikely that multiple classes will be equally good at this, thus 1 new tank will become meta

B.)

should the new meta tank from A not be the best tank for all bosses, a second tank for bosses were the first tank does not work would get picked. Effectively now raid groups need to use 2 different tanks to clear all raid wings. This is immense extra effort and coordination for PUG and semi-static groups compared to now. Imagine Deimos or Dhuum with their unique roles given to party members just for multiple bosses

C.)

if the meta shifts from 4 support classes back to 5 (as it was during HoT), the pressure on damage dealers will again be higher thus making possible damage choices more restrictive once again

The net result is a more complex, more effort requiring meta and group composition. Please realize 1 thing:

class balance and ease of raids as well as accessibility are two very different things

Disclaimer: I'm not protecting chrono because I main the class. I've mained mesmer since the beginning of the game through all of its bugs, under powered pve messes, etc. I have multiple characters of every class fully geared and have legendary armor and ascended armor coming out of my ears (12 sets, 7k magnitite shards, etc.). I'm fine with switching to any other tank, support or damage dealer as need be (and I don't only play chrono to begin with as every raider should at least play 3 classes minimum). I'm just not buying into the entire: once chrono is nerfed all will be well kitten that some people are selling.

Unfortunately, chrono needs to get toned down and once that happens it will either get replaced by something more effective, or the raid meta will become more restrictive once again. Be aware of that.

As far as viable tanks which can do the job, there is a few and the most effective ones have been mentioned in this thread.

Having multiple choices for tanks wont be that bad, everyone has been asking anet to do it for dps for years and now we are quite close to that and its nice.

Nerfing chrono but only just so that its not leaps and bounds superior will outweight the negatives of having to prob run more than 1 classes. Elite specs will keep increasing we cant just stay with the support spot being locked for chrono.

There is no pure "tank role".

There is damage, boons and heal

(if needed) and which ever class can provide one of those 3 aspects the best while tanking (thus giving up the least amount of stat points while providing one of those 3 roles) is tank. For the bazillionth time, it's called role compression.

Chrono is not a "tank". Chrono is a boon support first and gets to play tank on some boss fights since there is few downsides to one of the chronos taking gear with toughness on it (since his boon up-time is almost not affected). Nerf the boon support of chrono and he drops out of the meta (which can be discussed but that's not the issue here). There is no:"this class will remain as tank" in this game. You have to bring one of the 3 aforementioned aspects.

Idk why you stuck so much in the word "tank" thats one aspect of the whole thing idd. You can nerf chrono's cc/ boons/ healing or w/e and they dont need to drop out of the meta, it can be part of the choices you have. It just sould not be the only meta. My issue isnt wether they will take it to tank in the fights that have that function my issue is that it should be nerfed thats what im discussing.

[Cyninja.2954]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Glott.7239" said:Now i think we can all agree that Chrono boon spam needs to get nerfed bigtime.

Do we?

Don't get me wrong, I fully support and agree that people want multiple tank specs and possibilities, I'm just wondering if everyone asking for chrono nerfs has thought this through to the end. If we operate under following assumptions:

• there will always be 1 class which best performs a certain role
• the limiting factor in raid setups is currently the support classes
• the most flexibility for a meta group will be at best for damage builds
• the more support classes take up spots, the less place for damage classes there is thus making encounters harder
• having multiple different setups for different bosses forces people to play more than 1 class

Given all those factors, is nerfing chrono REALLY in the best interest for PUG raids or semi casual raid groups? Not talking static or very hardcore groups since those will always adapt and use the most powerful tools.

Let us assume chrono got nerfed so far that a new tank were required (which would be more than fine from a balance point of view), here is the likely scenario as to how it will unfold given current balance:

A.)

which ever class best role compresses the most abilities with being able to tank will become the future tank. It is highly unlikely that multiple classes will be equally good at this, thus 1 new tank will become meta

B.)

should the new meta tank from A not be the best tank for all bosses, a second tank for bosses were the first tank does not work would get picked. Effectively now raid groups need to use 2 different tanks to clear all raid wings. This is immense extra effort and coordination for PUG and semi-static groups compared to now. Imagine Deimos or Dhuum with their unique roles given to party members just for multiple bosses

C.)

if the meta shifts from 4 support classes back to 5 (as it was during HoT), the pressure on damage dealers will again be higher thus making possible damage choices more restrictive once again

The net result is a more complex, more effort requiring meta and group composition. Please realize 1 thing:

class balance and ease of raids as well as accessibility are two very different things

Disclaimer: I'm not protecting chrono because I main the class. I've mained mesmer since the beginning of the game through all of its bugs, under powered pve messes, etc. I have multiple characters of every class fully geared and have legendary armor and ascended armor coming out of my ears (12 sets, 7k magnitite shards, etc.). I'm fine with switching to any other tank, support or damage dealer as need be (and I don't only play chrono to begin with as every raider should at least play 3 classes minimum). I'm just not buying into the entire: once chrono is nerfed all will be well kitten that some people are selling.

Unfortunately, chrono needs to get toned down and once that happens it will either get replaced by something more effective, or the raid meta will become more restrictive once again. Be aware of that.

As far as viable tanks which can do the job, there is a few and the most effective ones have been mentioned in this thread.

Having multiple choices for tanks wont be that bad, everyone has been asking anet to do it for dps for years and now we are quite close to that and its nice.

Nerfing chrono but only just so that its not leaps and bounds superior will outweight the negatives of having to prob run more than 1 classes. Elite specs will keep increasing we cant just stay with the support spot being locked for chrono.

There is no pure "tank role".

There is damage, boons and heal

(if needed) and which ever class can provide one of those 3 aspects the best while tanking (thus giving up the least amount of stat points while providing one of those 3 roles) is tank. For the bazillionth time, it's called role compression.

Chrono is not a "tank". Chrono is a boon support first and gets to play tank on some boss fights since there is few downsides to one of the chronos taking gear with toughness on it (since his boon up-time is almost not affected). Nerf the boon support of chrono and he drops out of the meta (which can be discussed but that's not the issue here). There is no:"this class will remain as tank" in this game. You have to bring one of the 3 aforementioned aspects.

Idk why you stuck so much in the word "tank" thats one aspect of the whole thing idd. You can nerf chrono's cc/ boons/ healing or w/e and they dont need to drop out of the meta, it can be part of the choices you have. It just sould not be the only meta. My issue isnt wether they will take it to tank in the fights that have that function my issue is that it should be nerfed thats what im discussing.

That can be discussed, but reducing chronos boon share will result in 1 of 2 possible scenarios (as I had mentioned earlier already):

A. it drops out of the meta since it gets outperformed by another class or setup (by chrono not providing permanent up-time)B. it does not drop out of the meta because it can still provide permanent alacrity and quickness (the other boons are insignificant)

There is no middle ground. That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. The chance of getting two classes exactly equally balanced is close to 0. The only way to attempt to balance is to allow both classes to provide the same quickness and alacrity (permanent). The only way to create an alternative to chrono is either have revenant or guardian provide both boons, or remove alacrity and reduce the amount of required boons to bring down to 1.

This entire thread about tanks is what is confusing for people. Many believe that there is this 1 tank per raid group. There isn't. There is only boon supply (quickness, alacrity, fury and might), there is damage and there is heal.

[zealex.9410]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Glott.7239" said:Now i think we can all agree that Chrono boon spam needs to get nerfed bigtime.

Do we?

Don't get me wrong, I fully support and agree that people want multiple tank specs and possibilities, I'm just wondering if everyone asking for chrono nerfs has thought this through to the end. If we operate under following assumptions:

• there will always be 1 class which best performs a certain role
• the limiting factor in raid setups is currently the support classes
• the most flexibility for a meta group will be at best for damage builds
• the more support classes take up spots, the less place for damage classes there is thus making encounters harder
• having multiple different setups for different bosses forces people to play more than 1 class

Given all those factors, is nerfing chrono REALLY in the best interest for PUG raids or semi casual raid groups? Not talking static or very hardcore groups since those will always adapt and use the most powerful tools.

Let us assume chrono got nerfed so far that a new tank were required (which would be more than fine from a balance point of view), here is the likely scenario as to how it will unfold given current balance:

A.)

which ever class best role compresses the most abilities with being able to tank will become the future tank. It is highly unlikely that multiple classes will be equally good at this, thus 1 new tank will become meta

B.)

should the new meta tank from A not be the best tank for all bosses, a second tank for bosses were the first tank does not work would get picked. Effectively now raid groups need to use 2 different tanks to clear all raid wings. This is immense extra effort and coordination for PUG and semi-static groups compared to now. Imagine Deimos or Dhuum with their unique roles given to party members just for multiple bosses

C.)

if the meta shifts from 4 support classes back to 5 (as it was during HoT), the pressure on damage dealers will again be higher thus making possible damage choices more restrictive once again

The net result is a more complex, more effort requiring meta and group composition. Please realize 1 thing:

class balance and ease of raids as well as accessibility are two very different things

Disclaimer: I'm not protecting chrono because I main the class. I've mained mesmer since the beginning of the game through all of its bugs, under powered pve messes, etc. I have multiple characters of every class fully geared and have legendary armor and ascended armor coming out of my ears (12 sets, 7k magnitite shards, etc.). I'm fine with switching to any other tank, support or damage dealer as need be (and I don't only play chrono to begin with as every raider should at least play 3 classes minimum). I'm just not buying into the entire: once chrono is nerfed all will be well kitten that some people are selling.

Unfortunately, chrono needs to get toned down and once that happens it will either get replaced by something more effective, or the raid meta will become more restrictive once again. Be aware of that.

As far as viable tanks which can do the job, there is a few and the most effective ones have been mentioned in this thread.

Having multiple choices for tanks wont be that bad, everyone has been asking anet to do it for dps for years and now we are quite close to that and its nice.

Nerfing chrono but only just so that its not leaps and bounds superior will outweight the negatives of having to prob run more than 1 classes. Elite specs will keep increasing we cant just stay with the support spot being locked for chrono.

There is no pure "tank role".

There is damage, boons and heal

(if needed) and which ever class can provide one of those 3 aspects the best while tanking (thus giving up the least amount of stat points while providing one of those 3 roles) is tank. For the bazillionth time, it's called role compression.

Chrono is not a "tank". Chrono is a boon support first and gets to play tank on some boss fights since there is few downsides to one of the chronos taking gear with toughness on it (since his boon up-time is almost not affected). Nerf the boon support of chrono and he drops out of the meta (which can be discussed but that's not the issue here). There is no:"this class will remain as tank" in this game. You have to bring one of the 3 aforementioned aspects.

Idk why you stuck so much in the word "tank" thats one aspect of the whole thing idd. You can nerf chrono's cc/ boons/ healing or w/e and they dont need to drop out of the meta, it can be part of the choices you have. It just sould not be the only meta. My issue isnt wether they will take it to tank in the fights that have that function my issue is that it should be nerfed thats what im discussing.

That can be discussed, but reducing chronos boon share will result in 1 of 2 possible scenarios (as I had mentioned earlier already):

A. it drops out of the meta since it gets outperformed by another class or setup (by chrono not providing permanent up-time)B. it does not drop out of the meta because it can still provide permanent alacrity and quickness (the other boons are insignificant)

There is no middle ground. That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. The chance of getting two classes exactly equally balanced is close to 0. The only way to attempt to balance is to allow both classes to provide the same quickness and alacrity (permanent). The only way to create an alternative to chrono is either have revenant or guardian provide both boons, or remove alacrity and reduce the amount of required boons to bring down to 1.

This entire thread about tanks is what is confusing for people. Many believe that there is this 1 tank per raid group. There isn't. There is only boon supply (quickness, alacrity, fury and might), there is damage and there is heal.

Its pretty similar with the dps thing and eles. I dont care if chrono is the best i dont want it to be the best by a land slide. Since they devs are keen on having quickness stacker and alac stackers then i suggest u hit chrono's other good things.

Ik it will never be perfectly balanced but what we got for dps can happen for boon supports as well.

[Zunki.3916]

The problem is that with DPS they really try to bring the DPS choices very near to each other and balance and balance and balance... but when it comes to support/boons they just have no clear vision, or at least they don't show it. Right now I really don't care what dps is making 20k+dps on a specific fight, it matters mostly not.

As on the support side the differences are just extremely big. They should get rid of class specific group buffs, either removing them like gotl or by giving them to other classes. Druid spirits, banners, etc.The next problem is that on launch they distributed boons to just about everyone. But these days some classes just oneclick 25 stacks of might on a group while others just can't or have a hard time. And they have alacraty as a boon but don't give it to everyone. There is no design goal visible, it's just one complete mess.They'd need a complete rework of the trait system to make this work.

Compression is okay, it's also okay that some classes do things slightly better then others. But right now some specs just do so much more than others. Buff the others to that level and everything should be fine on PvE, but then most likely WvW and PvP breaks....

[Cyninja.2954]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Glott.7239" said:Now i think we can all agree that Chrono boon spam needs to get nerfed bigtime.

Do we?

Don't get me wrong, I fully support and agree that people want multiple tank specs and possibilities, I'm just wondering if everyone asking for chrono nerfs has thought this through to the end. If we operate under following assumptions:

• there will always be 1 class which best performs a certain role
• the limiting factor in raid setups is currently the support classes
• the most flexibility for a meta group will be at best for damage builds
• the more support classes take up spots, the less place for damage classes there is thus making encounters harder
• having multiple different setups for different bosses forces people to play more than 1 class

Given all those factors, is nerfing chrono REALLY in the best interest for PUG raids or semi casual raid groups? Not talking static or very hardcore groups since those will always adapt and use the most powerful tools.

Let us assume chrono got nerfed so far that a new tank were required (which would be more than fine from a balance point of view), here is the likely scenario as to how it will unfold given current balance:

A.)

which ever class best role compresses the most abilities with being able to tank will become the future tank. It is highly unlikely that multiple classes will be equally good at this, thus 1 new tank will become meta

B.)

should the new meta tank from A not be the best tank for all bosses, a second tank for bosses were the first tank does not work would get picked. Effectively now raid groups need to use 2 different tanks to clear all raid wings. This is immense extra effort and coordination for PUG and semi-static groups compared to now. Imagine Deimos or Dhuum with their unique roles given to party members just for multiple bosses

C.)

if the meta shifts from 4 support classes back to 5 (as it was during HoT), the pressure on damage dealers will again be higher thus making possible damage choices more restrictive once again

The net result is a more complex, more effort requiring meta and group composition. Please realize 1 thing:

class balance and ease of raids as well as accessibility are two very different things

Disclaimer: I'm not protecting chrono because I main the class. I've mained mesmer since the beginning of the game through all of its bugs, under powered pve messes, etc. I have multiple characters of every class fully geared and have legendary armor and ascended armor coming out of my ears (12 sets, 7k magnitite shards, etc.). I'm fine with switching to any other tank, support or damage dealer as need be (and I don't only play chrono to begin with as every raider should at least play 3 classes minimum). I'm just not buying into the entire: once chrono is nerfed all will be well kitten that some people are selling.

Unfortunately, chrono needs to get toned down and once that happens it will either get replaced by something more effective, or the raid meta will become more restrictive once again. Be aware of that.

As far as viable tanks which can do the job, there is a few and the most effective ones have been mentioned in this thread.

Having multiple choices for tanks wont be that bad, everyone has been asking anet to do it for dps for years and now we are quite close to that and its nice.

Nerfing chrono but only just so that its not leaps and bounds superior will outweight the negatives of having to prob run more than 1 classes. Elite specs will keep increasing we cant just stay with the support spot being locked for chrono.

There is no pure "tank role".

There is damage, boons and heal

(if needed) and which ever class can provide one of those 3 aspects the best while tanking (thus giving up the least amount of stat points while providing one of those 3 roles) is tank. For the bazillionth time, it's called role compression.

Chrono is not a "tank". Chrono is a boon support first and gets to play tank on some boss fights since there is few downsides to one of the chronos taking gear with toughness on it (since his boon up-time is almost not affected). Nerf the boon support of chrono and he drops out of the meta (which can be discussed but that's not the issue here). There is no:"this class will remain as tank" in this game. You have to bring one of the 3 aforementioned aspects.

Idk why you stuck so much in the word "tank" thats one aspect of the whole thing idd. You can nerf chrono's cc/ boons/ healing or w/e and they dont need to drop out of the meta, it can be part of the choices you have. It just sould not be the only meta. My issue isnt wether they will take it to tank in the fights that have that function my issue is that it should be nerfed thats what im discussing.

That can be discussed, but reducing chronos boon share will result in 1 of 2 possible scenarios (as I had mentioned earlier already):

A. it drops out of the meta since it gets outperformed by another class or setup (by chrono not providing permanent up-time)B. it does not drop out of the meta because it can still provide permanent alacrity and quickness (the other boons are insignificant)

There is no middle ground. That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. The chance of getting two classes exactly equally balanced is close to 0. The only way to attempt to balance is to allow both classes to provide the same quickness and alacrity (permanent). The only way to create an alternative to chrono is either have revenant or guardian provide both boons, or remove alacrity and reduce the amount of required boons to bring down to 1.

This entire thread about tanks is what is confusing for people. Many believe that there is this 1 tank per raid group. There isn't. There is only boon supply (quickness, alacrity, fury and might), there is damage and there is heal.

Its pretty similar with the dps thing and eles. I dont care if chrono is the best i dont want it to be the best by a land slide. Since they devs are keen on having quickness stacker and alac stackers then i suggest u hit chrono's other good things.

Ik it will never be perfectly balanced but what we got for dps can happen for boon supports as well.

Except that dps have 6 slots and boon support 2. The leeway for dps is quite low, meaning you don't need meta dps to succeed. Boons you need 100% uptime. Hitting chronos other "good things" will not do anything about getting it out of the meta.

[Astralporing.1957]

@zealex.9410 said:Its pretty similar with the dps thing and eles. I dont care if chrono is the best i dont want it to be the best by a land slide.They are not. To be the best by a landslide, there would need to be a second primary support class first. Unless you consider Heralds (which were theoretically meant to be just that), in which case you're of course right, but that problem would not lie at the Chrono's end.

Since they devs are keen on having quickness stacker and alac stackers then i suggest u hit chrono's other good things.Even if chrono was giving only those two boons, it would still be meta. Without any competition. If you want that, you need another class able of giving 100% alacrity+quickness uptime (in a reliable way).

[Aetatis.5418]

didnt get the renegade and firebrand combo a good buff by getting plaguedoctors (main vit and conditiondmg) and therefore being an okay competition to mesmer already. atleast they are closer now, than they have ever been.so there is atleast "some" work in progress. it is progress after all... isnt it?

[zealex.9410]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Glott.7239" said:Now i think we can all agree that Chrono boon spam needs to get nerfed bigtime.

Do we?

Don't get me wrong, I fully support and agree that people want multiple tank specs and possibilities, I'm just wondering if everyone asking for chrono nerfs has thought this through to the end. If we operate under following assumptions:

• there will always be 1 class which best performs a certain role
• the limiting factor in raid setups is currently the support classes
• the most flexibility for a meta group will be at best for damage builds
• the more support classes take up spots, the less place for damage classes there is thus making encounters harder
• having multiple different setups for different bosses forces people to play more than 1 class

Given all those factors, is nerfing chrono REALLY in the best interest for PUG raids or semi casual raid groups? Not talking static or very hardcore groups since those will always adapt and use the most powerful tools.

Let us assume chrono got nerfed so far that a new tank were required (which would be more than fine from a balance point of view), here is the likely scenario as to how it will unfold given current balance:

A.)

which ever class best role compresses the most abilities with being able to tank will become the future tank. It is highly unlikely that multiple classes will be equally good at this, thus 1 new tank will become meta

B.)

should the new meta tank from A not be the best tank for all bosses, a second tank for bosses were the first tank does not work would get picked. Effectively now raid groups need to use 2 different tanks to clear all raid wings. This is immense extra effort and coordination for PUG and semi-static groups compared to now. Imagine Deimos or Dhuum with their unique roles given to party members just for multiple bosses

C.)

if the meta shifts from 4 support classes back to 5 (as it was during HoT), the pressure on damage dealers will again be higher thus making possible damage choices more restrictive once again

The net result is a more complex, more effort requiring meta and group composition. Please realize 1 thing:

class balance and ease of raids as well as accessibility are two very different things

Disclaimer: I'm not protecting chrono because I main the class. I've mained mesmer since the beginning of the game through all of its bugs, under powered pve messes, etc. I have multiple characters of every class fully geared and have legendary armor and ascended armor coming out of my ears (12 sets, 7k magnitite shards, etc.). I'm fine with switching to any other tank, support or damage dealer as need be (and I don't only play chrono to begin with as every raider should at least play 3 classes minimum). I'm just not buying into the entire: once chrono is nerfed all will be well kitten that some people are selling.

Unfortunately, chrono needs to get toned down and once that happens it will either get replaced by something more effective, or the raid meta will become more restrictive once again. Be aware of that.

As far as viable tanks which can do the job, there is a few and the most effective ones have been mentioned in this thread.

Having multiple choices for tanks wont be that bad, everyone has been asking anet to do it for dps for years and now we are quite close to that and its nice.

Nerfing chrono but only just so that its not leaps and bounds superior will outweight the negatives of having to prob run more than 1 classes. Elite specs will keep increasing we cant just stay with the support spot being locked for chrono.

There is no pure "tank role".

There is damage, boons and heal

(if needed) and which ever class can provide one of those 3 aspects the best while tanking (thus giving up the least amount of stat points while providing one of those 3 roles) is tank. For the bazillionth time, it's called role compression.

Chrono is not a "tank". Chrono is a boon support first and gets to play tank on some boss fights since there is few downsides to one of the chronos taking gear with toughness on it (since his boon up-time is almost not affected). Nerf the boon support of chrono and he drops out of the meta (which can be discussed but that's not the issue here). There is no:"this class will remain as tank" in this game. You have to bring one of the 3 aforementioned aspects.

Idk why you stuck so much in the word "tank" thats one aspect of the whole thing idd. You can nerf chrono's cc/ boons/ healing or w/e and they dont need to drop out of the meta, it can be part of the choices you have. It just sould not be the only meta. My issue isnt wether they will take it to tank in the fights that have that function my issue is that it should be nerfed thats what im discussing.

That can be discussed, but reducing chronos boon share will result in 1 of 2 possible scenarios (as I had mentioned earlier already):

A. it drops out of the meta since it gets outperformed by another class or setup (by chrono not providing permanent up-time)B. it does not drop out of the meta because it can still provide permanent alacrity and quickness (the other boons are insignificant)

There is no middle ground. That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. The chance of getting two classes exactly equally balanced is close to 0. The only way to attempt to balance is to allow both classes to provide the same quickness and alacrity (permanent). The only way to create an alternative to chrono is either have revenant or guardian provide both boons, or remove alacrity and reduce the amount of required boons to bring down to 1.

This entire thread about tanks is what is confusing for people. Many believe that there is this 1 tank per raid group. There isn't. There is only boon supply (quickness, alacrity, fury and might), there is damage and there is heal.

Its pretty similar with the dps thing and eles. I dont care if chrono is the best i dont want it to be the best by a land slide. Since they devs are keen on having quickness stacker and alac stackers then i suggest u hit chrono's other good things.

Ik it will never be perfectly balanced but what we got for dps can happen for boon supports as well.

Except that dps have 6 slots and boon support 2. The leeway for dps is quite low, meaning you don't need meta dps to succeed. Boons you need 100% uptime. Hitting chronos other "good things" will not do anything about getting it out of the meta.

Im pretty sure fb and rene can hit perma uptime on alac and quickness.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Glott.7239" said:Now i think we can all agree that Chrono boon spam needs to get nerfed bigtime.

Do we?

Don't get me wrong, I fully support and agree that people want multiple tank specs and possibilities, I'm just wondering if everyone asking for chrono nerfs has thought this through to the end. If we operate under following assumptions:

• there will always be 1 class which best performs a certain role
• the limiting factor in raid setups is currently the support classes
• the most flexibility for a meta group will be at best for damage builds
• the more support classes take up spots, the less place for damage classes there is thus making encounters harder
• having multiple different setups for different bosses forces people to play more than 1 class

Given all those factors, is nerfing chrono REALLY in the best interest for PUG raids or semi casual raid groups? Not talking static or very hardcore groups since those will always adapt and use the most powerful tools.

Let us assume chrono got nerfed so far that a new tank were required (which would be more than fine from a balance point of view), here is the likely scenario as to how it will unfold given current balance:

A.)

which ever class best role compresses the most abilities with being able to tank will become the future tank. It is highly unlikely that multiple classes will be equally good at this, thus 1 new tank will become meta

B.)

should the new meta tank from A not be the best tank for all bosses, a second tank for bosses were the first tank does not work would get picked. Effectively now raid groups need to use 2 different tanks to clear all raid wings. This is immense extra effort and coordination for PUG and semi-static groups compared to now. Imagine Deimos or Dhuum with their unique roles given to party members just for multiple bosses

C.)

if the meta shifts from 4 support classes back to 5 (as it was during HoT), the pressure on damage dealers will again be higher thus making possible damage choices more restrictive once again

The net result is a more complex, more effort requiring meta and group composition. Please realize 1 thing:

class balance and ease of raids as well as accessibility are two very different things

Disclaimer: I'm not protecting chrono because I main the class. I've mained mesmer since the beginning of the game through all of its bugs, under powered pve messes, etc. I have multiple characters of every class fully geared and have legendary armor and ascended armor coming out of my ears (12 sets, 7k magnitite shards, etc.). I'm fine with switching to any other tank, support or damage dealer as need be (and I don't only play chrono to begin with as every raider should at least play 3 classes minimum). I'm just not buying into the entire: once chrono is nerfed all will be well kitten that some people are selling.

Unfortunately, chrono needs to get toned down and once that happens it will either get replaced by something more effective, or the raid meta will become more restrictive once again. Be aware of that.

As far as viable tanks which can do the job, there is a few and the most effective ones have been mentioned in this thread.

Having multiple choices for tanks wont be that bad, everyone has been asking anet to do it for dps for years and now we are quite close to that and its nice.

Nerfing chrono but only just so that its not leaps and bounds superior will outweight the negatives of having to prob run more than 1 classes. Elite specs will keep increasing we cant just stay with the support spot being locked for chrono.

There is no pure "tank role".

There is damage, boons and heal

(if needed) and which ever class can provide one of those 3 aspects the best while tanking (thus giving up the least amount of stat points while providing one of those 3 roles) is tank. For the bazillionth time, it's called role compression.

Chrono is not a "tank". Chrono is a boon support first and gets to play tank on some boss fights since there is few downsides to one of the chronos taking gear with toughness on it (since his boon up-time is almost not affected). Nerf the boon support of chrono and he drops out of the meta (which can be discussed but that's not the issue here). There is no:"this class will remain as tank" in this game. You have to bring one of the 3 aforementioned aspects.

Idk why you stuck so much in the word "tank" thats one aspect of the whole thing idd. You can nerf chrono's cc/ boons/ healing or w/e and they dont need to drop out of the meta, it can be part of the choices you have. It just sould not be the only meta. My issue isnt wether they will take it to tank in the fights that have that function my issue is that it should be nerfed thats what im discussing.

That can be discussed, but reducing chronos boon share will result in 1 of 2 possible scenarios (as I had mentioned earlier already):

A. it drops out of the meta since it gets outperformed by another class or setup (by chrono not providing permanent up-time)B. it does not drop out of the meta because it can still provide permanent alacrity and quickness (the other boons are insignificant)

There is no middle ground. That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. The chance of getting two classes exactly equally balanced is close to 0. The only way to attempt to balance is to allow both classes to provide the same quickness and alacrity (permanent). The only way to create an alternative to chrono is either have revenant or guardian provide both boons, or remove alacrity and reduce the amount of required boons to bring down to 1.

This entire thread about tanks is what is confusing for people. Many believe that there is this 1 tank per raid group. There isn't. There is only boon supply (quickness, alacrity, fury and might), there is damage and there is heal.

Its pretty similar with the dps thing and eles. I dont care if chrono is the best i dont want it to be the best by a land slide. Since they devs are keen on having quickness stacker and alac stackers then i suggest u hit chrono's other good things.

Ik it will never be perfectly balanced but what we got for dps can happen for boon supports as well.

Except that dps have 6 slots and boon support 2. The leeway for dps is quite low, meaning you don't need meta dps to succeed. Boons you need 100% uptime. Hitting chronos other "good things" will not do anything about getting it out of the meta.

Im pretty sure fb and rene can hit perma uptime on alac and quickness.

Rene can keep up about 80% alacrity uptime for whole squad alone (search for Matt/KC/MO boonbot teef+alacrity rene vids for good example) and condi-FB can keep up full quickness and more by using firebrand runes instead of renegade's, sigil of concentration on weapon and toxic maintenance oil. (That actually throws condi-FB way above what's needed but whatever.)

[zealex.9410]

@LadyKitty.6120 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Glott.7239" said:Now i think we can all agree that Chrono boon spam needs to get nerfed bigtime.

Do we?

Don't get me wrong, I fully support and agree that people want multiple tank specs and possibilities, I'm just wondering if everyone asking for chrono nerfs has thought this through to the end. If we operate under following assumptions:

• there will always be 1 class which best performs a certain role
• the limiting factor in raid setups is currently the support classes
• the most flexibility for a meta group will be at best for damage builds
• the more support classes take up spots, the less place for damage classes there is thus making encounters harder
• having multiple different setups for different bosses forces people to play more than 1 class

Given all those factors, is nerfing chrono REALLY in the best interest for PUG raids or semi casual raid groups? Not talking static or very hardcore groups since those will always adapt and use the most powerful tools.

Let us assume chrono got nerfed so far that a new tank were required (which would be more than fine from a balance point of view), here is the likely scenario as to how it will unfold given current balance:

A.)

which ever class best role compresses the most abilities with being able to tank will become the future tank. It is highly unlikely that multiple classes will be equally good at this, thus 1 new tank will become meta

B.)

should the new meta tank from A not be the best tank for all bosses, a second tank for bosses were the first tank does not work would get picked. Effectively now raid groups need to use 2 different tanks to clear all raid wings. This is immense extra effort and coordination for PUG and semi-static groups compared to now. Imagine Deimos or Dhuum with their unique roles given to party members just for multiple bosses

C.)

if the meta shifts from 4 support classes back to 5 (as it was during HoT), the pressure on damage dealers will again be higher thus making possible damage choices more restrictive once again

The net result is a more complex, more effort requiring meta and group composition. Please realize 1 thing:

class balance and ease of raids as well as accessibility are two very different things

Disclaimer: I'm not protecting chrono because I main the class. I've mained mesmer since the beginning of the game through all of its bugs, under powered pve messes, etc. I have multiple characters of every class fully geared and have legendary armor and ascended armor coming out of my ears (12 sets, 7k magnitite shards, etc.). I'm fine with switching to any other tank, support or damage dealer as need be (and I don't only play chrono to begin with as every raider should at least play 3 classes minimum). I'm just not buying into the entire: once chrono is nerfed all will be well kitten that some people are selling.

Unfortunately, chrono needs to get toned down and once that happens it will either get replaced by something more effective, or the raid meta will become more restrictive once again. Be aware of that.

As far as viable tanks which can do the job, there is a few and the most effective ones have been mentioned in this thread.

Having multiple choices for tanks wont be that bad, everyone has been asking anet to do it for dps for years and now we are quite close to that and its nice.

Nerfing chrono but only just so that its not leaps and bounds superior will outweight the negatives of having to prob run more than 1 classes. Elite specs will keep increasing we cant just stay with the support spot being locked for chrono.

There is no pure "tank role".

There is damage, boons and heal

(if needed) and which ever class can provide one of those 3 aspects the best while tanking (thus giving up the least amount of stat points while providing one of those 3 roles) is tank. For the bazillionth time, it's called role compression.

Chrono is not a "tank". Chrono is a boon support first and gets to play tank on some boss fights since there is few downsides to one of the chronos taking gear with toughness on it (since his boon up-time is almost not affected). Nerf the boon support of chrono and he drops out of the meta (which can be discussed but that's not the issue here). There is no:"this class will remain as tank" in this game. You have to bring one of the 3 aforementioned aspects.

Idk why you stuck so much in the word "tank" thats one aspect of the whole thing idd. You can nerf chrono's cc/ boons/ healing or w/e and they dont need to drop out of the meta, it can be part of the choices you have. It just sould not be the only meta. My issue isnt wether they will take it to tank in the fights that have that function my issue is that it should be nerfed thats what im discussing.

That can be discussed, but reducing chronos boon share will result in 1 of 2 possible scenarios (as I had mentioned earlier already):

A. it drops out of the meta since it gets outperformed by another class or setup (by chrono not providing permanent up-time)B. it does not drop out of the meta because it can still provide permanent alacrity and quickness (the other boons are insignificant)

There is no middle ground. That's what meta means. MOST EFFICIENT TACTIC AVAILABLE. The chance of getting two classes exactly equally balanced is close to 0. The only way to attempt to balance is to allow both classes to provide the same quickness and alacrity (permanent). The only way to create an alternative to chrono is either have revenant or guardian provide both boons, or remove alacrity and reduce the amount of required boons to bring down to 1.

This entire thread about tanks is what is confusing for people. Many believe that there is this 1 tank per raid group. There isn't. There is only boon supply (quickness, alacrity, fury and might), there is damage and there is heal.

Its pretty similar with the dps thing and eles. I dont care if chrono is the best i dont want it to be the best by a land slide. Since they devs are keen on having quickness stacker and alac stackers then i suggest u hit chrono's other good things.

Ik it will never be perfectly balanced but what we got for dps can happen for boon supports as well.

Except that dps have 6 slots and boon support 2. The leeway for dps is quite low, meaning you don't need meta dps to succeed. Boons you need 100% uptime. Hitting chronos other "good things" will not do anything about getting it out of the meta.

Im pretty sure fb and rene can hit perma uptime on alac and quickness.

Rene can keep up about 80% alacrity uptime for whole squad alone (search for Matt/KC/MO boonbot teef+alacrity rene vids for good example) and condi-FB can keep up full quickness and more by using firebrand runes instead of renegade's, sigil of concentration on weapon and toxic maintenance oil. (That actually throws condi-FB way above what's needed but whatever.)

According to fennec it can give perma alac might and heal better than druid. Fb tho has the issue with its mantras aplying to the 5 nearest ppl instead of the subgroup (apparently).