Holosmith and Spellbreaker sustain is far too high

[Rouien.5234]

Giving engineer more damage was a mistake. I say this as a engineer main.

[Vicariuz.1605]

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Vicariuz.1605 said:Agree, at first I was expecting hyperbole but instead it's accurate. Holo is literally press everything off cd since they are so low any way. Yes yes yes you can time things blah blah, but there is no downside to missing holo 3->5 because it will be up again in no time at all. Same goes for spell breaker, the ONLY thing you even need to pay attention to against it is full counter. Terrible balance on both. Design is fine.

lol so you want the only thing that DEFINES the whole spec that is spellbreaker to be nerfed to the ground by doubling its cd, so you dont want to need to pay attention to anything your enemy does? wow great balancing idea from your side, pretty darn lazy tbh

go ahead, nerf it to 25 seconds, but then double every other defensive skill aswell, im looking at bandits defense, mesmer dodge/block shenanigans, guards block etc.

fullcounter blocks a single attack and after blocking has a 1/2 dodgeframe, kitten son, lets take a look at bandits defense while we are at it. its a stunbreak, it blocks the next few attacks for 1 1/2s and after block gets a knockdown on a 20s cd with the posibility to reduce the cdand that skill is not spec defining...oh and knockdown is stronger than daze btwnow tell me again that it woud be fair to put fc to 25s while stuff like bandits defense existsembrace the powercreep and get nuked left and right because ppl were able to block stuff

again this is what defines the spellbreaker, there wouldnt be much of a reason to play sb, except in wvw zerging solely for winds of disenchantment, everywhere else id instantly go straight back to core warrior

You're ability to put words in my mouth is nothing short of astounding, pls quote me where I ask for it to be nerfed into the ground OR where I ask for double cd, dont be stupid....... You sound like a republican talking head.... omg they have an issue with something, lets bring it to the most extreme possible even though they havent said that at all, that way I can justify my ape mode spec that has little to zero downsides. WHAT A JOKE.

Full counter EVADES all attacks DURING THE ANIMATION. Please stop typing like you have ANY clue what you are talking about, it's very clear you do not. Furthermore, comparing an SB to thief is even more laughable than your understanding of the skills either use (especially when one is an AOE 5k daze+immob and the other is not) I'll let you ponder why......

Your opinion on anything balance related is VOID.

[RedShark.9548]

@Vicariuz.1605 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Vicariuz.1605 said:Agree, at first I was expecting hyperbole but instead it's accurate. Holo is literally press everything off cd since they are so low any way. Yes yes yes you can time things blah blah, but there is no downside to missing holo 3->5 because it will be up again in no time at all. Same goes for spell breaker, the ONLY thing you even need to pay attention to against it is full counter. Terrible balance on both. Design is fine.

lol so you want the only thing that DEFINES the whole spec that is spellbreaker to be nerfed to the ground by doubling its cd, so you dont want to need to pay attention to anything your enemy does? wow great balancing idea from your side, pretty darn lazy tbh

go ahead, nerf it to 25 seconds, but then double every other defensive skill aswell, im looking at bandits defense, mesmer dodge/block shenanigans, guards block etc.

fullcounter blocks a single attack and after blocking has a 1/2 dodgeframe, kitten son, lets take a look at bandits defense while we are at it. its a stunbreak, it blocks the next few attacks for 1 1/2s and after block gets a knockdown on a 20s cd with the posibility to reduce the cdand that skill is not spec defining...oh and knockdown is stronger than daze btwnow tell me again that it woud be fair to put fc to 25s while stuff like bandits defense existsembrace the powercreep and get nuked left and right because ppl were able to block stuff

again this is what defines the spellbreaker, there wouldnt be much of a reason to play sb, except in wvw zerging solely for winds of disenchantment, everywhere else id instantly go straight back to core warrior

You're ability to put words in my mouth is nothing short of astounding, pls quote me where I ask for it to be nerfed into the ground OR where I ask for double cd, dont be stupid....... You sound like a republican talking head.... omg they have an issue with something, lets bring it to the most extreme possible even though they havent said that at all, that way I can justify my ape mode spec that has little to zero downsides. WHAT A JOKE.

Full counter EVADES all attacks DURING THE ANIMATION. Please stop typing like you have ANY clue what you are talking about, it's very clear you do not. Furthermore, comparing an SB to thief is even more laughable than your understanding of the skills either use (especially when one is an AOE 5k daze+immob and the other is not) I'll let you ponder why......

Your opinion on anything balance related is VOID.

you agreed with the original poster, who indeed said he wanted to double its cooldown, sorry but i cant read your mind to what you agree and what you leave out of your agreement

also i described the fc mechanic correct, not sure what you are on about, i said you block the first attackt that hits you and then you have a 1/2 second evadeframe, and after that you hit around you dazing ppl, im not sure how you think it works, but thats definately how it works.

also just because they are different classes doesnt mean that you cant compare similar skills with each other. and thats what they are, they both have a defensive aspect, which is on both end the block(which turns into evade from.warriorside) following with a cc retaoiation attack, well yea if you hit multiple foes its right that warri only has a daze while thief has a knockdown, but in duells for example both just hit one target anyways. my point is, similiar skills can be and should be comparable.

just claimig that i have no idea what im talking about and not proving any of that is rly bad argumentation from your side, i could now say that you probably have no idea what you are talking about since you didnt prove any of your claims, but instead i assume that you are just too lazy to do so and are just stuck with your own opinion unwilling to argument at all, which defeats tre purpose of this forum

edit(just because you talk to me like an complete kittenhole): its "your abillity" not "you're abillity"

[BadMed.3846]

Disclaimer: I don't main either of these classes.

Honestly, as a Ranger main in pvp, I don't find either of these classes as OP. In fact, both seem very well balanced. For a holo, it's truly a glass cannon with just enough sustain to get in and out of fights if timed well. You need to be skilled enough to seem to be somewhat OP. Very acceptable to me.

For a spellbreaker, you need to keep it ferocious enough that you fear it in the circle. in 1v1 I most get tough battles from them. Sure I will some and die to some. Yet again, I can go range them but when it comes to melee they are meant to be stronger. Otherwise, what purpose do they serve.

The only ridiculous class in this game is Mesmer.Elementalists are most poorly designed and I don't think they will ever get fixed.

[praqtos.9035]

holo main again chiming in xdso fun to see these posts, ppl complaining about telegraphed skills and builds that arent even meta by a long shot..invul x2 rly?? noone in their right mind will take elixir s on a utility slot nowadays unless u went yolo in unranked. passive invul is the best of 3 useless traits imo, would exchange that for anything else as to not be interrupted when trying to heal and then die 3 sec later with 2 ppl on my ass waiting for the effect to go away.

id agree holo sustain is a bit too much, but thats largely due to the meta build only having defensive skills slotted in utility. anyone that does that can defend for a long time.i love fighting other holo's cuz all u need is to dodge Holo wave, prime light beam and its gg rly. we rely so much on cc to stay alive that if u deny us it we are pretty much a sitting duck. or try cc us down, only stab we have is forge 3 and if that fails we only have 40sec / 20sec over 50 heat stunbreak. or use immob on a holo thats red. u would be surprised how effective it is. no dodge, no heat management and prolly a 8k selfdestruct overheat while u can burst them down.

only reason holo's are just jumping in is because ppl dont rly focus them. its quite laughable to see when u down 3 ppl because noone is dodging the GIANT FUCKING LIGHT WAVE ... rly??

[praqtos.9035]

PSu can interrupt heal np, want to kill holo fast? deny them water field heal from both turret(3sec water field) and turret toolbelt skill (1sec water field) alot of the sustain is comming from this combo alone. and bait them out of hard light arena, less protection,regen and fury too.if anything needs a nerf it should be some seconds added to holo leap and kinetic battery, quickness uptime ups burst dmg to insane levels and we got alot of easy acces to quickness. holographic wave is on a 15 sec cd and only usable once in forge mode before u have to go out again to cool it down, only thing u need here is to git guud and dodge the damn thing

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I have been saying holo needs to get tuned since everyone was crying "nerf mirage".Glad we're finally on track.

[Megametzler.5729]

Make Adrenal Health not proc if FC does not hit. Spellbreaker solved.

I don't think Holo is much of an issue right now. Maybe reduce some boon spam (Hard Light Arena for 20+ seconds of prot, fury and regen?). Maybe just reduce the effectiveness of healing turret a bit. But only if the other meta builds get some nerfs too. It is good compared to those.

[Frostmane.9734]

Holo is just overtuned but can be easily brought down to earth. Take the leap finisher off of Holo Leap, reduce the duration of hard light arena (maybe have it add an extra boon over 50% heat instead of extended duration) and possibly reduce the auto attack damage by 5-10%. Done.

Everything else is just about avoiding the cc which have very obvious animations. If you blew a dodge on something else, that's your fault.

[Tehologist.5841]

Why remove the leap finisher? @Frostmane.9734

[Frostmane.9734]

@Tehologist.5841 said:Why remove the leap finisher? @Frostmane.9734

A lot of the sustain that is being complained about here comes from using the leap finisher in water fields provided by the healing turret (both the overcharge skill field and the toolbelt field) and the light field from hard light arena. Its a leap finisher on a 2 second cooldown.

[Tehologist.5841]

Healing turret is a bit strong, heal with 2 condi removes and produces a water field with a built in blast finisher and periodic regen. I think it’s healing could be toned down a bit, and could keep the leap finisher. Light aura from leaping light field is so weak. Also, if removed the leap finisher should increase the speed on holo leap by a lot. Asura does a double backflip before it even lands. You have forever to dodge or move out of the way.

[Soilder.3607]

All holosmith needs is cooldown increases on its forge skills in PvP. It's damage was already nerfed to a moderate degree.

• Holo Leap 2 --> 5 seconds
• Corona burst 6 --> 10 seconds
• Photon Blitz 10 --> 15 seconds
• Holographic Shockwave 15 --> 20 seconds

There we go. Problem solved.

[Patrick.2987]

@Falan.1839 said:Feeling of invincibility, ye, for sure. If you knew how quick a rev, reaper or even a condi mes can melt down a careless Holo you wouldn't write this. Also your description reads like it has 5 or 6 slot skills available (without elite and heal). Elixir S and and Spectrum Shield barely ever occur in the same build because Hard Light Arena and Photon Wall are pretty much autolock for the meta SD spec [with the conversion variant the same goes for arena and Thumper Turret]. I personally go even without either of them, prefering the on demand stab and quickness from Elixir U. The heal is also not uninterruptible and the only way to get an 800+ leap is picking rocket boots (even though it's technically a blast), which would take yet another slot skill. Holo leap has 600 range and is barely faster than normal running. Holographic shockwave is one of the best telegraphed spells in the game, therefore really easily avoided, similar as Chill to the Bone. Also its damage has already been significantly nerfed.

Holo is in a good spot but it's not performing much better than other meta builds. It's one of the best duelists, but doesnt have the 1vX capability of spellbreaker or the mobility of Mes and is still susceptible to Condi Pressure/corrupt and well timed bursts/cc locks, making it a very rewarding opponent to +1 for most roamers and still fairly easily suppressed by scourges in teamfights.

Against holos you need to play around their cds, similar to playing around the full counters of spellbreakers, and that's why bad players tend to struggle overproportionally with it. As a player with limited awareness, game knowledge and reactions it's probably easier to be effective as a holo than with most other classes, but once both players are on a decent level, most matchups become skill matchups for holos.

Chilled to the bone is an elite with 90s cd. If you compare that to shockwave i am pretty sure it needs an increased cooldown.

[Mbelch.9028]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Mbelch.9028" said:First, let me say as a Holosmith main, it is a strong class and spec. It has decent sustain, reasonable condition removal and good damage. But I still feel your points about Holosmith are heavyhanded and come without full understanding. Permanent protection and stability? What are you even talking about?? Please explain to me which Holo build has both of those permanent boons, does good burst damage and doesn't die quickly? I'd love to play it.

Do you know how easily Holos succumb to pressure? Very, you must just not be pressuring them correctly. Rifle Holos are almost completely countered by revenants, and Sword/Shield holos succumb pretty easily to conditions.

I have been suggesting a few nerfs for a while, as long as other classes also receive nerfs (such as Rev burst damage, Warrior sustain, Weaver evades, ect), but I see things mentioned here that would kick Holo out of the meta and out of use entirely.

For example, the suggestion that forge should have a 20-second cooldown, that's insanity, and it means once per fight we'd be using our core mechanic, which defeats the purpose. Swapping to holoforge is what the build is based around, so how else would we remove conditions? Conditions alone would remove it from meta at that point.

My thought is other classes need to be buffed to be more well-rounded like Holo. Don't call for blind nerfs just because you don't play the class.

P.S. Just for historical reference, SBreaker was firmly in the meta a few patches ago (so maybe a year ago at this point?), until they upped the cooldown of FC to 15 seconds, and use of warrior dropped drastically. Changes that you're suggesting would do something similar.P.P.S. Holo already received some significant nerfs. Shaving is all that's needed at this point in time.

I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought,

that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong

, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay.

Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not.

You consider weaver sword something to be nerfed because...he dodges 2 more times than other builds and what after? Personally I simply bait Twist of faith ( their only stunbrak) than proceed to twoshot the ele easily : no double elixir S, no perma stability, no stealth, no dmg reduction...nothing that stops me from 2shot the ele. I dunno how an ele can give you troubles at all...almost everybody consider ele nothing more than an annoyance that can be easily dealt with when all other issues have been solved..but that's not the aim of this thread, feel free to make a thread and suggest to nerf weaver even further..but I doubt you'll find much audience

Going back to holosmith, I would suggest not to make any claim about other class sustain...because engi has quite a huge roster of traits that allow bunker sustain under any circumstance : burst or not; I didn't mention any sustain issue here, the problem lies with skills like

holographic shockwave

which is vastly OP and I still feel inclined to leave as that but at the very least we must have reduced access directly or indirectly.

We either increase its cd from 15s to 25s or increase CD of photon forge....and regardless of both

they must remove the absurd radius that goes through wall

, it's 100% absurd that a holosmith can hit while being on a completely different floor kitten really

Based on this response, I can tell you have zero understanding of Holosmith. Please try it out, get recked a few times, then come back. If you claim to do well, back it up with proof.

Holo has a great global management mechanic that few classes do: heat. You seem to have an issue with core engineer traits, which is faulted because core engineer is nowhere near close to the meta.

Also, kill it with the hyperbole. "Jumping into the fight feeling invincible!" "Infinite stealth, burst, bunker" "Perma stability, perma prot" It's just not correct and shows your lack of knowledge.

/thread.

[Frostmane.9734]

@Tehologist.5841 said:Healing turret is a bit strong, heal with 2 condi removes and produces a water field with a built in blast finisher and periodic regen. I think it’s healing could be toned down a bit, and could keep the leap finisher. Light aura from leaping light field is so weak. Also, if removed the leap finisher should increase the speed on holo leap by a lot. Asura does a double backflip before it even lands. You have forever to dodge or move out of the way.

Prefer to leave healing turret alone as its not a holo specific skill; core and scrapper can't quite combo the water fields the same way holo does. If anything, blasting the turret could come with a longer recharge penalty to compensate for the built in combo. Its already a 5 second penalty but that's not very long a lot of people will just blast it rather than thinking about picking it up.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Frostmane.9734 said:

@Tehologist.5841 said:Healing turret is a bit strong, heal with 2 condi removes and produces a water field with a built in blast finisher and periodic regen. I think it’s healing could be toned down a bit, and could keep the leap finisher. Light aura from leaping light field is so weak. Also, if removed the leap finisher should increase the speed on holo leap by a lot. Asura does a double backflip before it even lands. You have forever to dodge or move out of the way.

Prefer to leave healing turret alone as its not a holo specific skill; core and scrapper can't quite combo the water fields the same way holo does. If anything, blasting the turret could come with a longer recharge penalty to compensate for the built in combo. Its already a 5 second penalty but that's not very long a lot of people will just blast it rather than thinking about picking it up.

The problem is everybody is calling for nerfs to core instead of addressing what their actual problem is -- that photon forge is dangerous.

[Rodzynald.5897]

I am just agitated by the reckless design of certain classes, their traitlines and weapon skills. Without a clearly defined role to what a class does, those who have mobility with sustain/broken mobility or any other sort of escape on demand mechanics/other butt saving capabilities, those reign supreme. Not to mention that I find many classes with hybrid ammy's the most annoying to fight rather than pure zerks, magi or other that focus on 3 basic stats. I also can't shake off the feeling the medium weight classes get the best tools to play with + mesmer, as it is Anet's favourite, let's be honest on that one.

[Arheundel.6451]

@"Rodzynald.5897" said:I am just agitated by the reckless design of certain classes, their traitlines and weapon skills. Without a clearly defined role to what a class does, those who have mobility with sustain/broken mobility or any other sort of escape on demand mechanics/other butt saving capabilities, those reign supreme. Not to mention that I find many classes with hybrid ammy's the most annoying to fight rather than pure zerks, magi or other that focus on 3 basic stats. I also can't shake off the feeling the medium weight classes get the best tools to play with + mesmer, as it is Anet's favourite, let's be honest on that one.

Really I am content enough with the knowledge than more and more people are waking up to the truth : this balance process is more like a personal playground for few individuals who just buff certain classes close to god like level with overstacked traits/abilities.

I mean take a look at full counter https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Full_Counter seriously , who has ever seen a more stacked skill in a videogame?

[Kroya.1072]

Help, how do I get all those things listed in the OP as a holo?

[Mbelch.9028]

@Kroya.1072 said:Help, how do I get all those things listed in the OP as a holo?

They don't exist. OP doesn't understand the entire engineer class, let alone Holo. OP appears to be an elementalist who is sad (rightfully so) that Anet can't balance eles at all. I also miss elementalist (was a well-known d/d ele main), but calling for nerfs to mostly balanced classes like Holo is just bad form.

[Khalisto.5780]

The pvp threads should show what rank are ppl. Most of complaints are tierwise, and most of the balances requested are not accurated. Im sitting in silver rank, almost gold, and in this specific tier i feel SB is quite strong, hollo is decent too. The FC CD could be bigger, because you can buy time enough to get all your heals up while you spam it. Hollo is a little bit easier to deal with, heavy condi or boon strip should do it easily.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Mbelch.9028 said:

@"Kroya.1072" said:Help, how do I get all those things listed in the OP as a holo?

They don't exist. OP doesn't understand the entire engineer class, let alone Holo. OP appears to be an elementalist who is sad (rightfully so) that Anet can't balance eles at all. I also miss elementalist (was a well-known d/d ele main), but calling for nerfs to mostly balanced classes like Holo is just bad form.

Say what you want about me it doesn't bother me but...why are you still trying to play coy? Except fresh new players....everybody knows what an engi run : https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Static_Protection

The build in the link has 1x invulnerability but some engies take https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_S and that brings an additional invulnerability plus stealth while detracting nothing from the list in the OP which include dmg reduction with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectrum_Shield and allow engies to drop photon wall and add elixir s, now you have 2x stunbreak + stealth + 2x invulnerability but pls....do your best to prove otherwise , you call me liar anyway

[Mbelch.9028]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Mbelch.9028 said:

@"Kroya.1072" said:Help, how do I get all those things listed in the OP as a holo?

They don't exist. OP doesn't understand the entire engineer class, let alone Holo. OP appears to be an elementalist who is sad (rightfully so) that Anet can't balance eles at all. I also miss elementalist (was a well-known d/d ele main), but calling for nerfs to mostly balanced classes like Holo is just bad form.

Say what you want about me it doesn't bother me but...why are you still trying to play coy? Except fresh new players....everybody knows what an engi run :

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Static_Protection

The build in the link has 1x invulnerability but some engies take

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_S

and that brings an additional invulnerability plus stealth while detracting nothing from the list in the OP which include dmg reduction with

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectrum_Shield

and allow engies to drop

photon wall

and add elixir s, now you have 2x stunbreak + stealth + 2x invulnerability but pls....do your best to prove otherwise , you call me liar anyway

1.) Most engineers don't take Elixir S. 60 second cooldown makes the skill not viable. So you're incorrect there.2.) Skilled engineers look at Auto Elixir S as a negative thing, as it's just one more thing that's out of your control, can cancel your heal, ect. So you're basing an argument off metabattle, which is one of the lesser reliable sources of top-tier gameplay.3.) Just because some DO take elixir S and have access to invulnerability doesn't mean they're doing damage, or being effective WHILE they're invuln. They have no access to their skills. They can stomp or rez, but that's it. So that's also an incorrect assumption on your end.4.) Spectrum Shield: 50% reduced damage, which is strong, but for only three seconds? That helps a squishy class (yes, engineer is very squishy, sorry you're having a hard time killing them.) survive just a bit longer. About three seconds longer. Overpowered? No.5.) Photon wall is a needed skill. It's also a great skill. Why aren't we allowed to have skills that help us deflect attacks, since we have no access to Aegis or useful invulnerability skills?6.) The build you linked has little access to the Protection boon, outside of ONE powerful, but also limiting, utility, making it impossible to have 100% or even 50% uptime.

TLDR: You were rolled by a few engineers, looked up a metabattle build, but don't truly understand the class while crying for nerfs. I'm not insulting you, I'm stating facts. I'm not playing coy, I know the class and know what you're describing isn't a real thing. It's your perception of something you don't understand.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Mbelch.9028 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Mbelch.9028 said:

@"Kroya.1072" said:Help, how do I get all those things listed in the OP as a holo?

They don't exist. OP doesn't understand the entire engineer class, let alone Holo. OP appears to be an elementalist who is sad (rightfully so) that Anet can't balance eles at all. I also miss elementalist (was a well-known d/d ele main), but calling for nerfs to mostly balanced classes like Holo is just bad form.

Say what you want about me it doesn't bother me but...why are you still trying to play coy? Except fresh new players....everybody knows what an engi run :

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Static_Protection

The build in the link has 1x invulnerability but some engies take

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_S

and that brings an additional invulnerability plus stealth while detracting nothing from the list in the OP which include dmg reduction with

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectrum_Shield

and allow engies to drop

photon wall

and add elixir s, now you have 2x stunbreak + stealth + 2x invulnerability but pls....do your best to prove otherwise , you call me liar anyway

1.) Most engineers don't take Elixir S. 60 second cooldown makes the skill not viable. So you're incorrect there.2.) Skilled engineers look at Auto Elixir S as a negative thing, as it's just one more thing that's out of your control, can cancel your heal, ect. So you're basing an argument off metabattle, which is one of the lesser reliable sources of top-tier gameplay.3.) Just because some DO take elixir S and have access to invulnerability doesn't mean they're doing damage, or being effective WHILE they're invuln. They have no access to their skills. They can stomp or rez, but that's it. So that's also an incorrect assumption on your end.4.) Spectrum Shield: 50% reduced damage, which is strong, but for only three seconds? That helps a squishy class (yes, engineer is very squishy, sorry you're having a hard time killing them.) survive just a bit longer. About three seconds longer. Overpowered? No.5.) Photon wall is a needed skill. It's also a great skill. Why aren't we allowed to have skills that help us deflect attacks, since we have no access to Aegis or useful invulnerability skills?6.) The build you linked has little access to the Protection boon, outside of ONE powerful, but also limiting, utility, making it impossible to have 100% or even 50% uptime.

TLDR: You were rolled by a few engineers, looked up a metabattle build, but don't truly understand the class while crying for nerfs. I'm not insulting you, I'm stating facts. I'm not playing coy, I know the class and know what you're describing isn't a real thing. It's your perception of something you don't understand.

Also want to point out that the build he listed is EXTREMELY vulnerable to conditions. That's why I run conversion holo instead. Not as defensive against power builds, but I know how to make it work.