Invulnerability makes this game not fun

[Lexan.5930]

title says it all. Between mesmers, elementalist and engineers there is no counterplay to invulnerability. You either have to waste all your dodges on a shatter mes burst only to be blinded or stunned when trying to stun them to only have them go invulnerable and thier short shatter cooldown kill you before you can get to them.

Being killed by an elle who is invulnerable during their burst is not fun, theres no counter to it. For warriors who have evade frames and blocks and movement ability there is counterplay between other classes. I dont like how much defensive capability warriors have with stun breaks and evade frames on weapon skills but least there is a little bit of some play around thier skills.

remove invulnerability from sPvP and reduce all damage done by 20%. Then burst classes can still burst but can;t be invulnerable during someone else counter burst of sorts

[LazySummer.2568]

The counterplay to invulnerability is literally stand on point and decap them. Evade spamming on the other hand has much less of a counter play and require using specific skills

[brunoam.7391]

Stop complaining about everything. L2P.

[MyPuppy.8970]

I prefer invulns to all day blocks/evade

[Vagrant.7206]

OP is conflating evades with temp invulns. As @LazySummer.2568 said, temp invulns have very easy counterplay -- just cap/decap the point, or wait a few seconds.

Evade frames built into attacks are a different story though -- they are functionally invulns (with exception for some very specific skills), but with the added bonus of other actions or damage.

[Lexan.5930]

most blocks or chain blocks are directional or they force the user to use channel the block making them not able to do anything else. Evade spam is defiantly annoying for classes that just have a ton of evades and can avoid most everything until their skills come off cool down and they can pummel anyone else who has longer cool downs.

invulns that are instant cast and low risk/high reward that also allow the user to attack during them is not engaging game play that can be worked around. Invulns should be something that you chose to use instead of dps, you use it to protect yourself from others rather than use it blast others. if invulns stay in the game in sPvP they need to have some kind of downside. Channeled like the guardian elite so it's the only thing that can be done rather than obsidian flesh which still allows the elle to cast all skills and stun/bling crit and kill other players.

@"brunoam.7391" said:Stop complaining about everything. L2P.

don't just say "LTP" educate. How does one work around invulnerability?

[LazySummer.2568]

@Lexan.5930 said:most blocks or chain blocks are directional or they force the user to use channel the block making them not able to do anything else. Evade spam is defiantly annoying for classes that just have a ton of evades and can avoid most everything until their skills come off cool down and they can pummel anyone else who has longer cool downs.

invulns that are instant cast and low risk/high reward that also allow the user to attack during them is not engaging game play that can be worked around. Invulns should be something that you chose to use instead of dps, you use it to protect yourself from others rather than use it blast others. if invulns stay in the game in sPvP they need to have some kind of downside. Channeled like the guardian elite so it's the only thing that can be done rather than obsidian flesh which still allows the elle to cast all skills and stun/bling crit and kill other players.

@"brunoam.7391" said:Stop complaining about everything. L2P.

don't just say "LTP" educate. How does one work around invulnerability?

There're only 2 invul skills in the entire game that allows free action, one on a specific weapon & attunement, another require some set up for extra duration, both on very long cd and only max of 4s in sPvp. You couldn't just survive for 4s and get a decap? It's your fault for continuing to attack into them and get out traded. Evade spamming (that also attack you at the same time) is definitely more annoying and have much less counterplay

[breno.5423]

@LazySummer.2568 said:The counterplay to invulnerability is literally stand on point and decap them.

Invalid argument for mesmers.

[Jalal.6783]

@Lexan.5930 said:title says it all. Between mesmers, elementalist and engineers there is no counterplay to invulnerability. You either have to waste all your dodges on a shatter mes burst only to be blinded or stunned when trying to stun them to only have them go invulnerable and thier short shatter cooldown kill you before you can get to them.

Being killed by an elle who is invulnerable during their burst is not fun, theres no counter to it. For warriors who have evade frames and blocks and movement ability there is counterplay between other classes. I dont like how much defensive capability warriors have with stun breaks and evade frames on weapon skills but least there is a little bit of some play around thier skills.

remove invulnerability from sPvP and reduce all damage done by 20%. Then burst classes can still burst but can;t be invulnerable during someone else counter burst of sorts

Only invulns that should be in the game are invulns where you cannot do anything like guardian invuln. Not this mesmer kitten stuff where they invuln AND cast spells

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@breno.5423 said:

@LazySummer.2568 said:The counterplay to invulnerability is literally stand on point and decap them.

Invalid argument for mesmers.

Im also quite sure that more than mesmers were also talked about, thus picking 1 class out of the few mentioned does nothing for the overall argument.

[BlackBeard.2873]

I don't really like invulns with no dowsides ( and this hate mirage, as that is every Dodge now, it doesn't even let up on offensive pressure), but are you getting killed by a lot of FA eles? It is literally one of the only hard defenses offensive eles have, and FA is pretty trash right now. Even if they couldn't move, that really only prevents air autos, and the rest of the burst is instant cast skills (air swap, air 2, arcane blast).

Do you have an alternative suggestion for a defensive mechanic for eles? The sustain eles you see usually don't play focus, so you aren't seeing this vs. sword eles.

Also, just a note on burst eles, you literally only have to watch and Dodge a couple things, then counter pressure them. If they are Weaver, Dodge plasma beam, burst them right after double attune air as they are stuck without other defenses for 5s. If they are core, Dodge Phoenix (be careful if they get suspiciously close to you, as it is a very slow projectile). The other damage is barely enough to outpace the healing of most classes. If you are low, LOS kills their damage, and they can't actually chase very well. Their defense requires mostly good positioning and a few skills on very long CD. Focus them once they blow their defenses as they are sitting ducks for about the next minute.

[Razor.6392]

Elementalist was the only class whose invuln was actually nerfed. It is 3 seconds in pvp as opposed to the regular 4.

Meanwhile, mesmer keeps their invulns without having to equip a specific weapon set for it, same with engineer and warrior. Really makes you think.

[Swagg.9236]

@LazySummer.2568 said:The counterplay to invulnerability is literally stand on point and decap them. Evade spamming on the other hand has much less of a counter play and require using specific skills

That's not the counterplay considering how everyone also inflicts 100% KO damage while invulnerable if it's a fight's opening stages. The only counter to invuln is more invuln. It's anti-fun.

[Nash.3974]

@LazySummer.2568 said:The counterplay to invulnerability is literally stand on point and decap them. Evade spamming on the other hand has much less of a counter play and require using specific skills

But where is the counterplay if you fight on a node that you own? Or off point? There are not really counterplays tbh. And being able to cast while being invulnerable is just wrong. Guard and engi atleast cannot cast. And sorry but as if mesmer didn’t have enough ways to avoid damage and survive. I mean in the end if nothing works out they still have distortion…

[viquing.8254]

Guard and engi atleast cannot cast.That's why they are more played. ;)

I was afraid that there is no mesmer's op post on the first page.Mirage cloak is an evade.

Btw :

• Give mesmers the same base health, toughness and passive regen than warrior.
• Give mesmers the same damage, dispell, healing ability, passive retaliation and aegis than core gard or the same tools diversity than FB.
• Give mesmers the same stability uptime, aoe damage, vigor uptime than engi.
• I can continue the list for every spec.

Then you can remove distortion.

Today duels overview for me :Guards/FB and axe boon soulbeasts hard counter mirages.Weavers/druids do long fights vs mirages but win the point at the end.SB do never-ending fights vs mirages.Necros, Holo lose vs mes but often decap the point before dying.Thieves, revenants have very variables match up vs mes depending of players.

Not to say that near every other profession is better at teamfight.What did you want as better balance ?

[Swagg.9236]

@Nash.3974 said:

@LazySummer.2568 said:The counterplay to invulnerability is literally stand on point and decap them. Evade spamming on the other hand has much less of a counter play and require using specific skills

But where is the counterplay if you fight on a node that you own? Or off point? There are not really counterplays tbh. And being able to cast while being invulnerable is just wrong. Guard and engi atleast cannot cast. And sorry but as if mesmer didn’t have enough ways to avoid damage and survive. I mean in the end if nothing works out they still have distortion…

If you don't invuln when someone else throwns an invuln offense at you, you die, so your point is moot (you can't cap when you're dead so it doesn't matter if you can't do it while you're chaining invulns in time with your opponent). Also, considering how team fights feature at least two extra allied bodies to kiss the other boys while tap dancing on the point while you are off line-of-sighting everybody, invulning to stop someone else's instant/invuln from killing you doesn't stop your allies from contesting if they can. On top of all of this, points cap slowly and at rigid tick rates, so losing one or two ticks to your entire team being off point for a few seconds is negligible.

[Ferus.3165]

@Lexan.5930 said:title says it allis not fun

you know what else is not fun? invisibility, instant cast abilities, ranged abilites without projectile or any other tell, teleport abilites and i am sure there are more of those but you get my point. The game is so powercreeped that you cannot just remove something so essential like that simply because you feel like it. Cuts would have to be made on almost every single ability in this game.

[Silence.3702]

wrong place

[Nash.3974]

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Nash.3974 said:

@LazySummer.2568 said:The counterplay to invulnerability is literally stand on point and decap them. Evade spamming on the other hand has much less of a counter play and require using specific skills

But where is the counterplay if you fight on a node that you own? Or off point? There are not really counterplays tbh. And being able to cast while being invulnerable is just wrong. Guard and engi atleast cannot cast. And sorry but as if mesmer didn’t have enough ways to avoid damage and survive. I mean in the end if nothing works out they still have distortion…

If you don't invuln when someone else throwns an invuln offense at you, you die, so your point is moot (you can't cap when you're dead so it doesn't matter if you can't do it while you're chaining invulns in time with your opponent). Also, considering how team fights feature at least two extra allied bodies to kiss the other boys while tap dancing on the point while you are off line-of-sighting everybody, invulning to stop someone else's instant/invuln from killing you doesn't stop your allies from contesting if they can. On top of all of this, points cap slowly and at rigid tick rates, so losing one or two ticks to your entire team being off point for a few seconds is negligible.

You entirely missed the point. You claim the counterplay to your opponents invul is to cap his node. But where is the counterplay if you own the node? You simply can’t counterplay this situation. It’s not uncommon that people fight alone in sidenodes (1v1) then what do you do when trying to defend your node by winning the 1v1 when your opponent goes invul and freecasts on you? For sure atleast he can’t decap it but he has a natural advantage in the 1v1 because he has nothing to lose and not the responsibility to hold the node. So he can go ham and use invuls without giving up a node. And that’s unfair because his task is just to win the 1v1 to afterwards decap the node and he can do that easier without having the task to defend the node.

[Vieux P.1238]

Facing Invulnerable is not fun & being vulnerable is not fun..catch 22

[Swagg.9236]

@Nash.3974 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Nash.3974 said:

@LazySummer.2568 said:The counterplay to invulnerability is literally stand on point and decap them. Evade spamming on the other hand has much less of a counter play and require using specific skills

But where is the counterplay if you fight on a node that you own? Or off point? There are not really counterplays tbh. And being able to cast while being invulnerable is just wrong. Guard and engi atleast cannot cast. And sorry but as if mesmer didn’t have enough ways to avoid damage and survive. I mean in the end if nothing works out they still have distortion…

If you don't invuln when someone else throwns an invuln offense at you, you die, so your point is moot (you can't cap when you're dead so it doesn't matter if you can't do it while you're chaining invulns in time with your opponent). Also, considering how team fights feature at least two extra allied bodies to kiss the other boys while tap dancing on the point while you are off line-of-sighting everybody, invulning to stop someone else's instant/invuln from killing you doesn't stop your allies from contesting if they can. On top of all of this, points cap slowly and at rigid tick rates, so losing one or two ticks to your entire team being off point for a few seconds is negligible.

You entirely missed the point. You claim the counterplay to your opponents invul is to cap his node.

No, that was never my point. That was your own point that I already refuted. Get your mind together. You can't contest anything if you are dead which means invuln is the only way to sustain through enemy invuln (especially if its offensive invuln). Moreover, hardly anyone really full caps a point until the only people left standing near one are all on the same team. Given how ubiquitous invulnerability and passive/instant healing is nowadays, if you don't kill or completely chase off the entire enemy presence near a point, it will always be contested throughout an active fight regardless of whether or not one can contest a point while invulnerable.

[Nash.3974]

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Nash.3974 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Nash.3974 said:

@LazySummer.2568 said:The counterplay to invulnerability is literally stand on point and decap them. Evade spamming on the other hand has much less of a counter play and require using specific skills

But where is the counterplay if you fight on a node that you own? Or off point? There are not really counterplays tbh. And being able to cast while being invulnerable is just wrong. Guard and engi atleast cannot cast. And sorry but as if mesmer didn’t have enough ways to avoid damage and survive. I mean in the end if nothing works out they still have distortion…

If you don't invuln when someone else throwns an invuln offense at you, you die, so your point is moot (you can't cap when you're dead so it doesn't matter if you can't do it while you're chaining invulns in time with your opponent). Also, considering how team fights feature at least two extra allied bodies to kiss the other boys while tap dancing on the point while you are off line-of-sighting everybody, invulning to stop someone else's instant/invuln from killing you doesn't stop your allies from contesting if they can. On top of all of this, points cap slowly and at rigid tick rates, so losing one or two ticks to your entire team being off point for a few seconds is negligible.

You entirely missed the point. You claim the counterplay to your opponents invul is to cap his node.

No, that was never my point. That was your own point that I already refuted. Get your mind together. You can't contest anything if you are dead which means invuln is the only way to sustain through enemy invuln (especially if its offensive invuln). Moreover, hardly anyone really full caps a point until the only people left standing near one are all on the same team. Given how ubiquitous invulnerability and passive/instant healing is nowadays, if you don't kill or completely chase off the entire enemy presence near a point, it will always be contested throughout an active fight regardless of whether or not one can contest a point while invulnerable.

Again you don’t seem to understand or you never played pvp. On sidenodes there usually aren’t big fights. Mostly 1v1s. When an enemy attempts to decap your node but you move on it in time you in mostly all cases create a 1v1. Let’s say a mesmer goes to your homenode, you see/predict that in time and move on the node to prevent the decap. Then the Mesmer starts to fight you. He has the advantage to use everything he wants to kill you, also offensive invuls and defensive. He pressured you enough that you either have to disengage or die. You couldn’t even pressure him enough because he can freecast invuls because he doesn’t have to worry about nodes or anything. Also you ignored the off points skirmishes which happen as well. You don’t even have anything you can decap there he can freely use invuls without giving up anything. Or wasn’t your statement above that the counter to invuls is to ‘simply‘ decap.

[Swagg.9236]

@Nash.3974 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Nash.3974 said:

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Nash.3974 said:

@"LazySummer.2568" said:The counterplay to invulnerability is literally stand on point and decap them. Evade spamming on the other hand has much less of a counter play and require using specific skills

But where is the counterplay if you fight on a node that you own? Or off point? There are not really counterplays tbh. And being able to cast while being invulnerable is just wrong. Guard and engi atleast cannot cast. And sorry but as if mesmer didn’t have enough ways to avoid damage and survive. I mean in the end if nothing works out they still have distortion…

If you don't invuln when someone else throwns an invuln offense at you, you die, so your point is moot (you can't cap when you're dead so it doesn't matter if you can't do it while you're chaining invulns in time with your opponent). Also, considering how team fights feature at least two extra allied bodies to kiss the other boys while tap dancing on the point while you are off line-of-sighting everybody, invulning to stop someone else's instant/invuln from killing you doesn't stop your allies from contesting if they can. On top of all of this, points cap slowly and at rigid tick rates, so losing one or two ticks to your entire team being off point for a few seconds is negligible.

You entirely missed the point. You claim the counterplay to your opponents invul is to cap his node.

No, that was never my point. That was your own point that I already refuted. Get your mind together. You can't contest anything if you are dead which means invuln is the only way to sustain through enemy invuln (especially if its offensive invuln). Moreover, hardly anyone really full caps a point until the only people left standing near one are all on the same team. Given how ubiquitous invulnerability and passive/instant healing is nowadays, if you don't kill or completely chase off the entire enemy presence near a point, it will always be contested throughout an active fight regardless of whether or not one can contest a point while invulnerable.

Again you don’t seem to understand or you never played pvp. On sidenodes there usually aren’t big fights. Mostly 1v1s. When an enemy attempts to decap your node but you move on it in time you in mostly all cases create a 1v1. Let’s say a mesmer goes to your homenode, you see/predict that in time and move on the node to prevent the decap. Then the Mesmer starts to fight you. He has the advantage to use everything he wants to kill you, also offensive invuls and defensive. He pressured you enough that you either have to disengage or die. You couldn’t even pressure him enough because he can freecast invuls because he doesn’t have to worry about nodes or anything. Also you ignored the off points skirmishes which happen as well. You don’t even have anything you can decap there he can freely use invuls without giving up anything.

The opening teamfight swings the flow of the match, often irreversibly. It's a load of free kill points and it's a free capture node as well as the luxury of being able to secure gimmick objectives or pressure the final point on the map. I actually managed to dig up this thread which gives some very important insight into the importance of the opening midfight: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/243531. The summary goes that there is a tremendous chance (over 75%) that the first team to hit 250 points will end up winning the match (which runs to 500 points). The typical point boost from a midfight win is often enough to snowball any competent team to victory. More importantly, all of that data is coming from tournament matches which feature full teams of players who at least probably put some thought into their team composition (and possibly even know each other or have played with each other consistently). If we get such a massive win-ration skew in the most structured format of GW2 PvP, what makes you think that the less structured elements of PvP are going to fair any better?

To that end, 1v1s aren't the main topic here: invuln is so ubiquitous because it's absolutely, positively necessary to survive a midfight in which at least 3 enemy players are spewing 1HKO nonsense everywhere, and often focusing on a single target for overkill potential. The fact that all of this trashy invuln spam also influences 1v1 fights is just a trickle-down effect. Invuln chains are built for team fights, and within the context of a team fight, nobody captures anything until an entire side of the field is dead. Invulns are irrelevant to a team's capture potential within the active part of a midfight because nobody is really trying that hard to capture the point; they're all just going for kills so that they can capture the point afterward.

@Nash.3974 said:

Or wasn’t your statement above that the counter to invuls is to ‘simply‘ decap.

That was never a statement that I ever made. Why would you even assert that??? You're just making up your own points for no reason.