Winds of Disenchantment is stifling WvW class diversity.

[LordEnki.9283]

Nerf it and while your at it take a long look at Warrior's ridiculous invulnerable time.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

@Israel.7056 said:

@"Sovereign.1093" said:winds is ok. its not as strong as it was before. what ppl need to do is either w off it, w dodge off it (changing direction with mouse to avoid enemy bombs)

Ok and what should people do if they're fighting a group that is actually smart enough to drop their ccs and their damage in the same place as the bubble at the same time the bubble goes off so they can't just walk or dodge out of it?

how about... not rushing into the buble when you see it on your way?

as fo bubles dropped ontop of your group: firstly, you were already engaged in melee if you got caught like that, secondly assuming your group had any competent fighters in it sheer amounts of boons you'll have at that point will take a "while" to get rid of and stab is not exacly the first one to be stripped.

and it is most funny when the warrior dropping buble has aversion loss traited in and everyone affected has retaliation up.I remember my warrior nearly dying to retal alone few times when dropping WoD to cover disengage of our group......

[Sovereign.1093]

@Israel.7056 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:winds is ok. its not as strong as it was before. what ppl need to do is either w off it, w dodge off it (changing direction with mouse to avoid enemy bombs)

Ok and what should people do if they're fighting a group that is actually smart enough to drop their ccs and their damage in the same place as the bubble at the same time the bubble goes off so they can't just walk or dodge out of it?

what do you do when you meet a hammer train in the oldays, w and dodge forward.

or bait them to drop it and counter bomb.

or mass invis and regroup.

or have a safety portal.

there is this very strong sbi group who does just that and they kill our team and they are very tight but if you speed up stab and dodge to their back, you have a chance to counter or escape.

you should know this by now

[Sovereign.1093]

@nativity.3057 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:winds is ok. its not as strong as it was before. what ppl need to do is either w off it, w dodge off it (changing direction with mouse to avoid enemy bombs)

Ok and what should people do if they're fighting a group that is actually smart enough to drop their ccs and their damage in the same place as the bubble at the same time the bubble goes off so they can't just walk or dodge out of it?

shouldn't they be rewarded for being organized enough to make this play?

they should. they are simply more skilled

[Aeolus.3615]

IF u get stuck on wammo bubble ask for a jalis coat.... team should be able to have direct heals while u guys jump dodging back, or asside.

[Israel.7056]

@nativity.3057 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:winds is ok. its not as strong as it was before. what ppl need to do is either w off it, w dodge off it (changing direction with mouse to avoid enemy bombs)

Ok and what should people do if they're fighting a group that is actually smart enough to drop their ccs and their damage in the same place as the bubble at the same time the bubble goes off so they can't just walk or dodge out of it?

shouldn't they be rewarded for being organized enough to make this play?

As much as people should be rewarded for running 20 scourges sure. It's very very easy to do which is why so many organized groups do it.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Israel.7056 said:

@nativity.3057 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:winds is ok. its not as strong as it was before. what ppl need to do is either w off it, w dodge off it (changing direction with mouse to avoid enemy bombs)

Ok and what should people do if they're fighting a group that is actually smart enough to drop their ccs and their damage in the same place as the bubble at the same time the bubble goes off so they can't just walk or dodge out of it?

shouldn't they be rewarded for being organized enough to make this play?

As much as people should be rewarded for running 20 scourges sure. It's very very easy to do which is why so many organized groups do it.

run 20 revs. it will clear the place of scourges.

seriously ppl need to try rev x engi x sb.

dwarf and damage.from revs bubble.from.war.and.regen condi cleanse.from.engi. and super speed. it would rock their world.

[Israel.7056]

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:winds is ok. its not as strong as it was before. what ppl need to do is either w off it, w dodge off it (changing direction with mouse to avoid enemy bombs)

Ok and what should people do if they're fighting a group that is actually smart enough to drop their ccs and their damage in the same place as the bubble at the same time the bubble goes off so they can't just walk or dodge out of it?

what do you do when you meet a hammer train in the oldays, w and dodge forward.

or bait them to drop it and counter bomb.

or mass invis and regroup.

or have a safety portal.

there is this very strong sbi group who does just that and they kill our team and they are very tight but if you speed up stab and dodge to their back, you have a chance to counter or escape.

you should know this by now

Three separate lines of thought:

1.) Ye old hammer trains were very different in the "old days." Back then literally all anyone needed to get through them were stab rotations and you couldn't even lose stab to cc it had to be stripped and there were nowhere near as many boon strips and corrupts in the game as there are now. Null field and the necro well were pretty much all anyone had to worry about back then. Today's game is vastly different stab is a shadow of its former self there are tons of spammable boon strips and corrupts and of course there are bubbles which are one of the primary offenders because theyre way way stronger than a simple boon strip or a corrupt.

2.) How do they kill your group with bubbled bombs at all if you know its coming and there are so many simple ways for you and your guys to survive it?

3.) I personally know all the ways people try to survive bubble bombs because I've been part of groups that have been using bubble bombs since pof released. I know exactly how they work and how they can fail and so I know that telling people to "just dodge out" isn't very useful advice.This is particularly true if it's a close quarters fight like a lords room or a hallway or what have you because the entire ground is going to be covered and there's not going to be any safe place to dodge out if they can dodge at all.

[Israel.7056]

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@nativity.3057 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:winds is ok. its not as strong as it was before. what ppl need to do is either w off it, w dodge off it (changing direction with mouse to avoid enemy bombs)

Ok and what should people do if they're fighting a group that is actually smart enough to drop their ccs and their damage in the same place as the bubble at the same time the bubble goes off so they can't just walk or dodge out of it?

shouldn't they be rewarded for being organized enough to make this play?

As much as people should be rewarded for running 20 scourges sure. It's very very easy to do which is why so many organized groups do it.

run 20 revs. it will clear the place of scourges.

seriously ppl need to try rev x engi x sb.

dwarf and damage.from revs bubble.from.war.and.regen condi cleanse.from.engi. and super speed. it would rock their world.

Youre interpreting what i said too literally. It was posed as an analogy.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Israel.7056 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:winds is ok. its not as strong as it was before. what ppl need to do is either w off it, w dodge off it (changing direction with mouse to avoid enemy bombs)

Ok and what should people do if they're fighting a group that is actually smart enough to drop their ccs and their damage in the same place as the bubble at the same time the bubble goes off so they can't just walk or dodge out of it?

what do you do when you meet a hammer train in the oldays, w and dodge forward.

or bait them to drop it and counter bomb.

or mass invis and regroup.

or have a safety portal.

there is this very strong sbi group who does just that and they kill our team and they are very tight but if you speed up stab and dodge to their back, you have a chance to counter or escape.

you should know this by now

Three separate lines of thought:

1.) Ye old hammer trains were very different in the "old days." Back then literally all anyone needed to get through them were stab rotations and you couldn't even lose stab to cc it had to be stripped and there were nowhere near as many boon strips and corrupts in the game as there are now. Null field and the necro well were pretty much all anyone had to worry about back then. Today's game is vastly different stab is a shadow of its former self there are tons of spammable boon strips and corrupts and of course there are bubbles which are one of the primary offenders because theyre way way stronger than a simple boon strip or a corrupt.

2.) How do they kill your group with bubbled bombs at all if you know its coming and there are so many simple ways for you and your guys to survive it?

3.) I personally know all the ways people try to survive bubble bombs because I've been part of groups that have been using bubble bombs since pof released. I know exactly how they work and how they can fail and so I know that telling people to "just dodge out" isn't very useful advice.This is particularly true if it's a close quarters fight like a lords room or a hallway or what have you because the entire ground is going to be covered and there's not going to be any safe place to dodge out if they can dodge at all.

my guys did not dodge. =p and they were more than us. was really tight the ks group.

tomorrow i can upload the highlights.

not much to show though.

also in cave fights, close quarters. reapers have the advantage. reaper x spite soulrepeaing reaper is very very strong 150% power boost...and if you use damage reduction ferocity food, you will do major pain.

[Jski.6180]

The problem not so much winds of disenchantment but that war is the only class with such an effect. Not so much the strip but the block of reapplying boons that needs to be something more classes should have.

So what we have is one effect on one class that defines a wining fight or a lost because it is dealing with effects from all classes.

[Israel.7056]

@Jski.6180 said:Not so much the strip but the block of reapplying boons that needs to be something more classes should have.

I dunno I think it's just too strong of an effect in gw2 given its design. So much of this game's class mechanics and thus combat mechanics revolve entirely around boons so it's like a complete negation of a significant part of the core mechanical gw2 gameplay across all classes. It's hard for me to even think of an analogous effect for this game, maybe something like a field that stopped all healing and dodging within it or something like that it's that impactful.

So what we have is one effect on one class that defines a wining fight or a lost because it is dealing with effects from all classes.

Precisely right.

[Evonet.1632]

I've said it in the past, and will say it again: It's not the "power" of the skill that's the issue. You can either nerf it to a point where it is useless (too big of a CD, too small of a radius, too big of a cast time, etc), or leave it in a state where it's a "must" have skill.It is, without any doubt, the skill that defines the winning of a fight.Is it strong by its own? Heck no... alone is pretty much useless. But combine it with other skills in the game (gravity well being the biggest hitter) and you have a synergy too powerful to not be used.Some here are saying it's not too powerful, yet I am yet to see any guild running med to large scale (15+) without relying on WoD to win. I've seen some amazing guilds not running many (if any) scourges. I've seen some not running revs. I've seen some relying on vault spam, others relying on condi (not so much anymore), others relying on mass rev spikes and still some that cover big spaces with weebos aoe. Seen guilds that work around coming out from stealth for a quick finish, and I've seen guilds that rely on back and forward pirate ship... So the diversity IS there.What I have not seen is any at all that does not build their "bomb" around a bubble+cc combo.

So did it kill the diversity? In a sense no, but in another yes, because like it or not, all fights, in a way or another, end up in a perfect bubble (or bubbles) that pushes the fight in one side or the other.

What is wrong with WoD isn't its power, it's radius, its projectile block, etc... what is wrong is the nature of the skill: You can't apply boons. On a game that, in larger scale, was built around boons.

Can you melee push? Yes: just get that perfect bubble, strip cc and push.Can you range ppl? Yes: just play around back and forward, get that perfect bubble, cc and range bomb.Can you take some reapers isntead of some scourges? It's hard, personally I've never done it, but I've seen some guilds pull some interesting scourge spikes.Can you play more hit and run with holos and revs and lighter on necro? You can... again, it's hard, but you can.

Can you not take WoD and take let's say a bunch of worker warriors or some crazy Arc Div/rupt smash berserkers to dish out some damage? Heck no. Not if you want to win anyway.

Spellbreaker was an interesting concept. Having a frontline character that specializes on striping boons seems cool. But then came WoD, and spellbreaker became a must have gimmick with the sole purpose of droping a bubble in the right place.

But I guess the current leftovers in this game mode are happy with it... heck, it's giving them wins, so meh. Personally I wish it was gone, but you can't fight the majority. (and in that note, I wish Firebrand was gone so I could go back to core guard instead of being a minstrel beast that fills the role of 2 guards a tempest and a revenant from prev meta, but that's another story).

[Jski.6180]

@Israel.7056 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Not so much the strip but the block of reapplying boons that needs to be something more classes should have.

I dunno I think it's just too strong of an effect in gw2 given its design. So much of this game's class mechanics and thus combat mechanics revolve entirely around boons so it's like a complete negation of a significant part of the core mechanical gw2 gameplay across all classes. It's hard for me to even think of an analogous effect for this game, maybe something like a field that stopped all healing and dodging within it or something like that it's that impactful.

So what we have is one effect on one class that defines a wining fight or a lost because it is dealing with effects from all classes.

Precisely right.

If more classes had the effect of boon denial it would be a bit more normal to deal with and ppl would be a lot more ready for it.

On that note i do think winds of disenchantment needs some nerf mostly that it should not strip boons but only cut duration of boons on-top of stopping new boons from going up. Having both a strip and a boon denial on one skill (one class) is a problem. This is true for all skills that have many effect stacked on one skill winds of disenchantment not the only problem skill / class effect. What anet needs to do is look at skill only have 2-3 effect tied to them and dmg high to mid level IS an effect. Some skills just simply do to much.

My suggest is to make a list of major effects and minor effects. Make a rule you can only have 1 major effect per skill and 2 minor effect. Stab (strong boons) is a major effect boon strip is a major effect boon denial is a major effect strong heals / strong dmg (condi and power) is a major effect hard cc is a major effect as well as being aoe 3+ targets. Minor effect would be low dmg weak condi dmg shot soft cc (not root) low end boons swiftness reg might (low stacks) and say self only or 1 to 2 targets is a minor effect.

[juno.1840]

It's a combination of mechanics that make Winds so effective in large team fights. Take invulns for example. Many times a zerg sees a warrior coming in for a bubble but cannot stop the player from advancing -- many evades, endure pain, resistance, pulsing stab, etc. Half the time the warrior also makes it back out (but less likely due to spent cooldowns). If you think about it, that's just plain silly. One player yolo charging a 35 person team and still getting inside to plant a bubble.

You also see zergs waiting to push until a bubble is planted... "move into our bubble". So large fights play out based upon bubble placement.

Deny it if you wish, but more often than not, the team with more bubbles wins. That alone says there's a problem.

[Syrus.2174]

As an Ele my main problem with the spell is the area denial for half my skills. I think the combination of having both boon strip AND projectile disruption is too much power put into a single ability. Especially since Spellbreakers can just run into the enemy Zerg unharmable - unstoppable - and put down that field right smack in the middle with no risk. Not to mention, it is not just boon removal and projectile destruction, but also complete boon denial, which makes any boon sharing orientated build a lot weaker.Making the area smaller would be a start, but somehow splitting its effects into two abilities would be better. Or at least removing the boon denial effect...

Another main annoyance for me is how difficult it is to discern whether that bubble was laid by your team or the enemies.

[Tehologist.5841]

Why is the boon strip any worse than boon corruption, which scourges have by the butt load as well as pulls. 10 seconds every 90 seems pretty reasonable to me and the skill is at least strategic.

[Israel.7056]

@"Jski.6180" said:If more classes had the effect of boon denial it would be a bit more normal to deal with and ppl would be a lot more ready for it.

Then they'd have to add some kind of active counter play to the debuff like making it a condition instead of a "player state" or whatever they call it.

[juno.1840]

Boon denial is probably a bigger problem than boon stripping. It blocks more boons that it's likely to strip because players don't hang out in the domes. Dodging prevents boon stripping but still doesn't allow for boon application.

This also prevents counter play in some ways because the dome effectively blocks 100% of boon application from every skill from every player. That prevents counter play. Example: i want to give stab to my ally in a bubble because they just got stripped (by being in the dome) and they're in DH baby-gates. Sorry, not possible.

[Israel.7056]

@Tehologist.5841 said:Why is the boon strip any worse than boon corruption, which scourges have by the butt load as well as pulls. 10 seconds every 90 seems pretty reasonable to me and the skill is at least strategic.

It isn't just a boon strip, WoD has 4 main features:

1.) Projectile negation - Pretty impactful as there are actually a lot of projectile based skills in the game2.) Lightning combo field - leaps turn into dazes which is pretty annoying given how it strips stab and prevents reapplication3.) Periodic AoE boon strip - very strong and made even stronger by enchantment collapse trait4.) Boon application negation - imo the most impactful and overpowered feature of the skill by far.

[subversiontwo.7501]

This is ramping up to be one of those discussions again where people who lead and play in organized groups are pointing out the problem and everyone who just tacks onto those groups claim there's nothing wrong.

[Sovereign.1093]

:/ ppl start.using malyx banish enchant. now that.thing.is.a boon strip dps.

[Miko.4158]

hooray for wod.it means we have melee engagement."everyone in" otherwise its pirateship snooze.

its not that powerful, but it does focus the zerg - because of the visuals.the flipside is its not always the tag that chooses the bubble so it can get wasted/go wrong quite quickly.its a great additional dimension to wvw.

[Thelgar.7214]

Winds is fine as it is now. Don't panic, think, move, and communicate and you can deal with a bubble. Run around like an idiot teenager in a slasher movie when it is spawned and you'll have problems. It's probably the best thing to come into organized WvW combat since they changed the big stability nerf.

[StonePower.8321]

@"juno.1840" said:It's a combination of mechanics that make Winds so effective in large team fights. Take invulns for example. Many times a zerg sees a warrior coming in for a bubble but cannot stop the player from advancing -- many evades, endure pain, resistance, pulsing stab, etc. Half the time the warrior also makes it back out (but less likely due to spent cooldowns). If you think about it, that's just plain silly. One player yolo charging a 35 person team and still getting inside to plant a bubble.

You also see zergs waiting to push until a bubble is planted... "move into our bubble". So large fights play out based upon bubble placement.

Deny it if you wish, but more often than not, the team with more bubbles wins. That alone says there's a problem.

One scepter 3 from a necro and that push is rip.