Elementalist Owner.7802 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Winds really isn't that strong unless you're a keyboard turning skill clicker. Spellbreakers aren't any more important than firebrands and scourges. If anything, scourge is the most powerful of the three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 @Ferus.3165 said:@Israel.7056 said:@Ferus.3165 said:not really... without wod we'd have simply less diversity because there would not be a reason to bring warrior as a class into wvw fights. And even without wod the scourge+firebrand+herald combo would stay the same. We'd have simply more pirateship and even less engage.No one is saying they should delete WoD just that it needs to be toned down.Also how do you figure a weaker WoD would push the meta more in the direction of pirate shipping when WoD is the main reason for pirate shipping?Then i am glad you are not in the balance team, because wod is definitly not one of the problems in wvw :D. And you'd still have pirateship because there are no melee zergs that can do well vs scourge/herald range aoe burst. Without WoD there would be far less incentive to ever try to push into the opponent zerg. The main reason for pirate shipping is the ability to burst and dps (on a huge area) from a safe distance, not WoD.Ask anet if we can have one week without WoD to see what would change.I think you might actually be on the balance team because it sounds like you don't even play the game.WoD isn't just used as an offensive tool for setting up a big CC/Bomb hit it's also used as a defensive tool to disassemble melee trains by negating their firebrands and trapping them with ccs and damage and it works great for both uses.WoD is the main reason since PoF released for the move towards "pirate shipping" because stab is now completely unreliable if the enemy has spellbreakers.Ez to push if it's just heralds and scourges, can walk right through that no big deal. But if they have spellbreakers it's a much riskier proposition. There's always a good chance your squad is gonna get multi-bubbled and your guards and revs aren't going to be able to stab anyone out and since the only reliable counter play to getting bubbled is to gtfo and you can't gtfo as easily without stab, everyone is much more likely to die in a single bomb. So a lot of groups play it safe at range instead and only push when they think it's very low risk.It's still possible to push even with enemy spellbreakers, especially if they're disorganized and it's only one or two warriors, but it's pretty much a no go if they're organized with 5+ and 5+ spellbreakers is pretty much the norm now for any organized group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Winds is a good skill. It’s reaching really far to think that Winds has anything to do with build diversity... Diversity is stifled by the lack of working on professions with spvp and wvw in mind. The HoT and PoF elites were designed and balanced mostly for raids and pve, and only up until recently did professions get stronger attention for spvp and wvw performance through “splits”. There is a long way to go yet, but thankfully the devs are making the effort now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonecap.4105 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 @Israel.7056 said:@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:This is a simple L2P issue. If there's a warrior coming at you, you have two options. Move off or focus CC him. If people just stand there that is their problem.Strawman.What did I misrepresent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:@Israel.7056 said:@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:This is a simple L2P issue. If there's a warrior coming at you, you have two options. Move off or focus CC him. If people just stand there that is their problem.Strawman.What did I misrepresent? We aren't talking about one or two warriors yoloing in by themselves with no support or cover. At least I didn't get that from the op.If that's what he meant then you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Welcome to the era of the BubbleBoyWhile we also see tons of scourge and firebrand, when I'm in TS what I hear calls for more of regularly is more bubbles. Why? Long cooldown, super powerful skill, yes.. But it's also not an especially fun role to fill. Run in, drop your dome, then you may as well go make a sammich if you survived.Spellbreaker before PoF seemed to be a mage hunter, rushing into the backlines to dispatch weavers and mirages like the old black guard from Warhammer. But wod is too strong to not use front and center and delivering that bubble drives the rest of your build.Warriors fear they'll fall out of meta without it, but what else could be buffed in compensation? Maybe an elite that isn't so niche to one playstyle? Maybe there's more to life than being a BubbleBoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 @LetoII.3782 said:Welcome to the era of the BubbleBoyWhile we also see tons of scourge and firebrand, when I'm in TS what I hear calls for more of regularly is more bubbles. Why? Long cooldown, super powerful skill, yes.. But it's also not an especially fun role to fill. Run in, drop your dome, then you may as well go make a sammich if you survived.Spellbreaker before PoF seemed to be a mage hunter, rushing into the backlines to dispatch weavers and mirages like the old black guard from Warhammer. But wod is too strong to not use front and center and delivering that bubble drives the rest of your build.Warriors fear they'll fall out of meta without it, but what else could be buffed in compensation? Maybe an elite that isn't so niche to one playstyle? Maybe there's more to life than being a BubbleBoy.Spellbreaker existed before PoF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 @Voltekka.2375 said:@LetoII.3782 said:Welcome to the era of the BubbleBoyWhile we also see tons of scourge and firebrand, when I'm in TS what I hear calls for more of regularly is more bubbles. Why? Long cooldown, super powerful skill, yes.. But it's also not an especially fun role to fill. Run in, drop your dome, then you may as well go make a sammich if you survived.Spellbreaker before PoF seemed to be a mage hunter, rushing into the backlines to dispatch weavers and mirages like the old black guard from Warhammer. But wod is too strong to not use front and center and delivering that bubble drives the rest of your build.Warriors fear they'll fall out of meta without it, but what else could be buffed in compensation? Maybe an elite that isn't so niche to one playstyle? Maybe there's more to life than being a BubbleBoy.Spellbreaker existed before PoF? In previews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoV.5139 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 People saying its not important, all you have to do is join a zerg on your core roaming spec which does not include WoD as an elite, and time how fast it takes for people to ask you to spec it in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferus.3165 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 @Israel.7056 said:@Ferus.3165 said:@Israel.7056 said:@Ferus.3165 said:not really... without wod we'd have simply less diversity because there would not be a reason to bring warrior as a class into wvw fights. And even without wod the scourge+firebrand+herald combo would stay the same. We'd have simply more pirateship and even less engage.No one is saying they should delete WoD just that it needs to be toned down.Also how do you figure a weaker WoD would push the meta more in the direction of pirate shipping when WoD is the main reason for pirate shipping?Then i am glad you are not in the balance team, because wod is definitly not one of the problems in wvw :D. And you'd still have pirateship because there are no melee zergs that can do well vs scourge/herald range aoe burst. Without WoD there would be far less incentive to ever try to push into the opponent zerg. The main reason for pirate shipping is the ability to burst and dps (on a huge area) from a safe distance, not WoD.Ask anet if we can have one week without WoD to see what would change.I think you might actually be on the balance team because it sounds like you don't even play the game.WoD isn't just used as an offensive tool for setting up a big CC/Bomb hit it's also used as a defensive tool to disassemble melee trains by negating their firebrands and trapping them with ccs and damage and it works great for both uses.WoD is the main reason since PoF released for the move towards "pirate shipping" because stab is now completely unreliable if the enemy has spellbreakers.Ez to push if it's just heralds and scourges, can walk right through that no big deal. But if they have spellbreakers it's a much riskier proposition. There's always a good chance your squad is gonna get multi-bubbled and your guards and revs aren't going to be able to stab anyone out and since the only reliable counter play to getting bubbled is to gtfo and you can't gtfo as easily without stab, everyone is much more likely to die in a single bomb. So a lot of groups play it safe at range instead and only push when they think it's very low risk.It's still possible to push even with enemy spellbreakers, especially if they're disorganized and it's only one or two warriors, but it's pretty much a no go if they're organized with 5+ and 5+ spellbreakers is pretty much the norm now for any organized group.hm i don't think you get that a zerg does not solely consists of scourges and heralds. Ofc support classes (mostly firebrands) are also always present. The pirate shipping would not stop when WoD would not exist. Scourge with firebrand support is far from easy to run over and it has enough boon rip/convert to stunlock you untill you die even with a firebrand support next to you. The moment a zerg pushes into the scourge/herald bomb they are all dead. And so what that people lose some boons and get picked of (and that's not even directly because of WoD because it doesn't even deal dmg)? Many skills in this game do exactly the same. Ofc WoD gives wvw gameplay a little shape, but many other skills do so too. And i don't see you complaining about rev hammer, scourge aoes or firebrands ability to spam boons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 @Ferus.3165 said:i don't see you complaining about rev hammer, scourge aoes or firebrands ability to spam boons.You haven't looked very hard.. WoD is at the end of that list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimator.3589 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 WoD's current power level is fine. It's the general power creep in this game that's the bigger problem. More boon hate gets added to the game, so more boon spam gets added to counter that. Then more boon hate is needed to counter that. Ad nauseum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zinkz.7045 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Because in the all the years prior to Spellbreaker large scale WvW had awesome class balance and diversity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 @Ferus.3165 said:@Israel.7056 said:@Ferus.3165 said:@Israel.7056 said:@Ferus.3165 said:not really... without wod we'd have simply less diversity because there would not be a reason to bring warrior as a class into wvw fights. And even without wod the scourge+firebrand+herald combo would stay the same. We'd have simply more pirateship and even less engage.No one is saying they should delete WoD just that it needs to be toned down.Also how do you figure a weaker WoD would push the meta more in the direction of pirate shipping when WoD is the main reason for pirate shipping?Then i am glad you are not in the balance team, because wod is definitly not one of the problems in wvw :D. And you'd still have pirateship because there are no melee zergs that can do well vs scourge/herald range aoe burst. Without WoD there would be far less incentive to ever try to push into the opponent zerg. The main reason for pirate shipping is the ability to burst and dps (on a huge area) from a safe distance, not WoD.Ask anet if we can have one week without WoD to see what would change.I think you might actually be on the balance team because it sounds like you don't even play the game.WoD isn't just used as an offensive tool for setting up a big CC/Bomb hit it's also used as a defensive tool to disassemble melee trains by negating their firebrands and trapping them with ccs and damage and it works great for both uses.WoD is the main reason since PoF released for the move towards "pirate shipping" because stab is now completely unreliable if the enemy has spellbreakers.Ez to push if it's just heralds and scourges, can walk right through that no big deal. But if they have spellbreakers it's a much riskier proposition. There's always a good chance your squad is gonna get multi-bubbled and your guards and revs aren't going to be able to stab anyone out and since the only reliable counter play to getting bubbled is to gtfo and you can't gtfo as easily without stab, everyone is much more likely to die in a single bomb. So a lot of groups play it safe at range instead and only push when they think it's very low risk.It's still possible to push even with enemy spellbreakers, especially if they're disorganized and it's only one or two warriors, but it's pretty much a no go if they're organized with 5+ and 5+ spellbreakers is pretty much the norm now for any organized group.hm i don't think you get that a zerg does not solely consists of scourges and heralds. Ofc support classes (mostly firebrands) are also always present. The pirate shipping would not stop when WoD would not exist. Scourge with firebrand support is far from easy to run over and it has enough boon rip/convert to stunlock you untill you die even with a firebrand support next to you. The moment a zerg pushes into the scourge/herald bomb they are all dead. And so what that people lose some boons and get picked of (and that's not even directly because of WoD because it doesn't even deal dmg)? Many skills in this game do exactly the same. Ofc WoD gives wvw gameplay a little shape, but many other skills do so too. And i don't see you complaining about rev hammer, scourge aoes or firebrands ability to spam boons.Ok so putting aside what is and isn't doable for a second....I said earlier the problem with the skill isn't the boon strip that's fairly easy to deal with and you're quite right there's lots of other boon strips in the game. If that was all WoD did id say it was basically fine. But WoD has an aspect to it that is functionally unique in this game do you know what that is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamarc.7463 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 It would be good to nerf winds for no other reason than to change the meta a little bit as the meta has been broadly similar since PoF release. But there would also need to be some significant nerfs to scourge and firebrand for there to be noticeable change as it is scourge/firebrand/spellbreaker that forms the core of every decent zerg and crowds out most other options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry CCH.9816 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 @"Frick.2635" said:Since PoF released a year ago, the WvW meta has been centered around Winds of Disenchantment. It has generally crowded out melee focused builds that were popular at the end of HoT in favor of builds that preform well at range. It also leads to fights ending very quickly once an engage is decided since chaining casts of winds onto the enemy group makes it very difficult for groups to use a winds to defend themself due to its long cast time being easily interrupted without stability access.The core issue is with winds is the massive area denial that it provides. Winds has a radius of 360, duration of 10 seconds, 10 target cap, 90 second cooldown while also blocking projectiles. This completely outclasses other area denial skills like necromancer wells. This has a disproportionate effect on melee builds, especially in larger numbers since the diminishing returns on stacking more spellbreakers/WoD is basically non-existant. Each winds placed forces melee to stop DPS and move out of danger or die, and because of the massive range it is difficult, increasingly so with larger groups, to stay commited to a melee push without having people cut off behind due to the combination of the Disenchantment effect and CC. This leads to groups not pushing at all until a fight is decided.The main concerns I've heard about nerfing winds is that it would lead to a return to "toilet bowl" meta and that it would ruin spellbreaker's viability. I think either of these happening would be extremely unlikely. For the first point, the "toilet bowl" meta was a period when many groups ran extremely high sustain comps with low damage output and focused on single targetting to secure a single kill, leading to a "toilet bowl" as the two groups chased eachothers tails in a circle. This had generally stopped being a problem by mid-late HoT as comps, builds and playstyle got better and more damage and boon removal was added into the game. It was certainly completely dead when condition revenent was buffed in the May 16th, 2017 balance patch (4 months before PoF). Both damage and boon corruption have gone up to levels far higher than even at the end of HoT - Break Enchantments alone removes 3 boons on a 15 second cooldown in a large AoE - which makes a fully defensive playstyle almost certainly unviable.As for the viability of Spellbreaker, it is a class with arguably the best melee survivability, competitive damage with other top DPS (when it gets to be in melee, which doesn't often happen given current winds) and high boonrip output through just Break Enchantments. Not only would spellbreaker still be a very strong, if not the best, melee option, but it would get more active time where it gets to be in melee actually using its skills and contributing to the fight, rather than angling for a perfect winds cast.WvW desperately needs the radius and duration of winds reduced. 240 radius and 5 second duration would put it on par with other area denial skills in WvW like necromancer wells and help open up a lot of options for builds and playstyles. Other reasonable changes would be reducing the target cap from 10 to 5 and lowering the cast time to 1 second (assuming radius and duration were lowered). While a full redesign of the skill could also be a good option, I think a short term solution of nerfing it is nessecary at the moment for the health and diversity of the gamemode.Agree you point :) Hope Anet make change with Winds of Disenchantment :s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitta.3657 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 There is absolutely far too much impact pushed into 1 single skill. It's disheartening to see so many posts not really understanding or having experienced this on a competitive level.A wasted winds still is absolutely dangerous; it's what we call Area of Denial. It can have been wasted and not landed a single kill because it was misplaced or mistimed but it does not take away how much of the ground it has covered and becomes a complete no-mans-zone until it disappears. Why should a wasted skill have that impact? When the radius is diminished, you gain far more from utilizing your winds properly rather than stacking more and more winds to make-up from all your hurr-durr warriors covering the ground and everyone here wins but the players who can't get better at coordinating. Isn't that something we should strive for, more skillful play?You can make an argument for the duration being changed rather than the size, and honestly personally i'll take that over nothing, and it would limit the length this skill would impact the whole battlefield but it wouldn't change how big of a no-mans-zone you've gained without even needing to capitalize on it.Something needs to be done about it as this skill solely has so much oppression in WvW, it is not to say other aspects of PoF like Firebrand or Scourge don't have their overtuned aspects but to say that 1 single skills, not the class or elite spec, is way too impactful without having to use your brain to use it.I think a compromise can be reached on what you give back for taking away the size. My preferred one is to lower the cast time thus helping the area of denial problem without punishing a warrior as much for committing to a Winds. You'll still see wasted winds, of course, but they won't be as dangerous as before and that's what matters for this skill not to be oppressive as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elementalist Owner.7802 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 @Kitta.3657 said:A wasted winds still is absolutely dangerous; it's what we call Area of Denial. It can have been wasted and not landed a single kill because it was misplaced or mistimed but it does not take away how much of the ground it has covered and becomes a complete no-mans-zone until it disappears. Why should a wasted skill have that impact? When the radius is diminished, you gain far more from utilizing your winds properly rather than stacking more and more winds to make-up from all your hurr-durr warriors covering the ground and everyone here wins but the players who can't get better at coordinating. Isn't that something we should strive for, more skillful play?Couldn't you say the same thing about a skill like Meteor Shower, which isn't even an elite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitta.3657 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 @Elementalist Owner.7802 said:@Kitta.3657 said:A wasted winds still is absolutely dangerous; it's what we call Area of Denial. It can have been wasted and not landed a single kill because it was misplaced or mistimed but it does not take away how much of the ground it has covered and becomes a complete no-mans-zone until it disappears. Why should a wasted skill have that impact? When the radius is diminished, you gain far more from utilizing your winds properly rather than stacking more and more winds to make-up from all your hurr-durr warriors covering the ground and everyone here wins but the players who can't get better at coordinating. Isn't that something we should strive for, more skillful play?Couldn't you say the same thing about a skill like Meteor Shower, which isn't even an elite?That is actually, in my opinion, the closest skill you could compare to Winds's area of denial by measure of size of course but it's not quite equivalent. You could observe how ridiculous it was when it was allowed to have too much impact by it's sheer busted damage. It amplified the power of it's area of denial because you couldn't get out before being chunked so hard at any stats combo and oneshot if squishy. The damage would've still have been busted if it had been smaller and bugged like it was but the impact of it would have been far less damaging to the game mode because getting out of the area of the skill would've been easy. Winds concept is to create that killzone that traps you in by removing your boons, not letting you reapply them and not letting projectiles through. It requires input from allies to kill but it's the skill that allows the deadly combo in such an incomparable state. I would say the next skills that would compare on impact would be wells (necros and grav well) but because they are so small, they let you get out of them far more reasonably. In winds, SO MUCH resources are spent simply to get out of it when combo'd that Meteor Shower isn't really equivalent with all the context, you see? I hope that made sense on why I think Winds is an outlier and you can make comparisons but nothing is quite like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanth.2978 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 @Kitta.3657 said:@Elementalist Owner.7802 said:@Kitta.3657 said:A wasted winds still is absolutely dangerous; it's what we call Area of Denial. It can have been wasted and not landed a single kill because it was misplaced or mistimed but it does not take away how much of the ground it has covered and becomes a complete no-mans-zone until it disappears. Why should a wasted skill have that impact? When the radius is diminished, you gain far more from utilizing your winds properly rather than stacking more and more winds to make-up from all your hurr-durr warriors covering the ground and everyone here wins but the players who can't get better at coordinating. Isn't that something we should strive for, more skillful play?Couldn't you say the same thing about a skill like Meteor Shower, which isn't even an elite?That is actually, in my opinion, the closest skill you could compare to Winds's area of denial by measure of size of course but it's not quite equivalent. You could observe how ridiculous it was when it was allowed to have too much impact by it's sheer busted damage. It amplified the power of it's area of denial because you couldn't get out before being chunked so hard at any stats combo and oneshot if squishy. The damage would've still have been busted if it had been smaller and bugged like it was but the impact of it would have been far less damaging to the game mode because getting out of the area of the skill would've been easy. Winds concept is to create that killzone that traps you in by removing your boons, not letting you reapply them and not letting projectiles through. It requires input from allies to kill but it's the skill that allows the deadly combo in such an incomparable state. I would say the next skills that would compare on impact would be wells (necros and grav well) but because they are so small, they let you get out of them far more reasonably. In winds, SO MUCH resources are spent simply to get out of it when combo'd that Meteor Shower isn't really equivalent with all the context, you see? I hope that made sense on why I think Winds is an outlier and you can make comparisons but nothing is quite like it.You make good points but you really undersell the value of scourges. In a raid of of 20 for example we see 10 scourges? I think that's fair and we see 2-3 spell breakers? and there is a reason for that. Winds a lot of times get cancelled out, we see winds on top of other winds and it's brutal for most groups. Scourges by far have the strongest area denial in the game, period. Winds comes every 60 sec for SB, area denial and strong area denial at that comes constantly from a scourge. Imagine how 10 scourges feel? Winds in itself are not hard to get away from, we can dodge roll out and rotate. Is it always a perfect transition? no but it does separate the people who are quick to react and the others who were not. For now I think winds is fine as is and could use some tuning in the future but first I rather them have a look at scourges and FB's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonoly.4352 Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 It should probably have a cooldown closer to 120 seconds. It's a very large and impactful skill (like Time Warp used to be) so 90 seconds might be too small. Functionality wise, it's a great skill and fun to use. It's nice that Warriors get to be utility monkeys with Mesmers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 winds is ok. its not as strong as it was before. what ppl need to do is either w off it, w dodge off it (changing direction with mouse to avoid enemy bombs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 I've been through everything from scrapper super speed metas to scourge portal metas do successfully deal with enemy bubbles since PoF release. I don't think we've had this much diversity in such a short period of time before. If you're playing on a server with commanders that are stuck in 2012, too bad for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel.7056 Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 @Sovereign.1093 said:winds is ok. its not as strong as it was before. what ppl need to do is either w off it, w dodge off it (changing direction with mouse to avoid enemy bombs)Ok and what should people do if they're fighting a group that is actually smart enough to drop their ccs and their damage in the same place as the bubble at the same time the bubble goes off so they can't just walk or dodge out of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nativity.3057 Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 @Israel.7056 said:@Sovereign.1093 said:winds is ok. its not as strong as it was before. what ppl need to do is either w off it, w dodge off it (changing direction with mouse to avoid enemy bombs)Ok and what should people do if they're fighting a group that is actually smart enough to drop their ccs and their damage in the same place as the bubble at the same time the bubble goes off so they can't just walk or dodge out of it?shouldn't they be rewarded for being organized enough to make this play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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