Relatively newbie player confused by WvW "culture".

[CrimsonRise.7650]

He is talking about Fight commanders, who are trying to get an organized group together, to fight another organized group, not a PVE/PVD ktrain.It means some classes are going excluded and proper builds are a must too, not Full Zerk Thieves or Rangers; who rallybot everyone.

You can choose to follow someone who is more lenient or even transfer if it's too 'elitist' for you, but don't expect to be invited into a squad who is trying to fight another organised zerg, where the parties need to share boons and heals, to those who actually need it.

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Aiga.3075 said:

The easiest way would be to change servers. Deso has some nice people, AG, GH, PS...

btw is PS still carebear no1?

There are PPT commanders and other random tags who don't care about fights and composition, so yeah.

[SkyShroud.2865]

It is subjective to commanders.

Some commanders just want to fight, just want actions, don't care about kdr or ppt. From what you described, those are just that kind of commander. They want to get a reliable fighting squad and use that squad as the primary basis of the strength level and decide a certain playstyle with that zerg. Of course you only filter people by builds, not by skills. Skills is not something you can easily determine among pugs, it is often determined by the average of the entire server. For example, a bandwagon full server certainly will have more skill players on average than a high or medium server. The commanders considered various factors and decided that filtration is necessary if they want to have a winning chance.

Edit: As for why they not interested to explain. Simply because you are not the first and won't be the last, he or she just don't want to spend unimaginable amount of time to explain to every single person who may or may not change for his or her benefits.

[steki.1478]

@Inoki.6048 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:As far as I'm concerned... A bad commander needs everyone to run META builds in order to be efficient, while a good commander can make use of everyone and still be effective.

I've seen good commanders, but they are extremely rare. They do things like putting Thieves into 1 squad and assigning them the roles of chasing down stragglers or skirting the outsides of fights, they give rangers the role of Pinsniping using unblockable attacks and so forth.

My advice would be to find a server or commander you enjoy following and support that commander, rude commanders and elite commanders generally don't have a following for long, especially the ones who blame the pugs instead of themselves.

Explain this to the people of Vabbi :joy: pretty sure all their commanders request people to run META ;) while all of them think they're the best while now in T4 :D

btw, I'm suspecting the OP is on Vabbi.

Being good has nothing to do with tiers. You win matchups by PPTing and having a lot of active people. None of those are related to skill level.

[steki.1478]

@"Zychuu.7294" said:

Some questions:

1. Am I missing something and getting rid of 'non proper meta' players from the squad and have them just follow the tag on their own benefits anybody somehow?

By not being in squad you're not receiving boons which means that you do less damage and you die faster if you're staying near tag. People in such squads want to let you know that you're dead weight/not needed in squad (or even near squad if you're playing something ranged) and you should swap class/build accordingly.

2. Is really WvW so much about meta-building?

Besides zerg fights, wvw has karma trains (ppt), small scale fights, solo roaming, scouting or even a mix of those elements meaning that your squad depends on commander and purpose of creating the squad. While meta builds usually help, you can do most of those on self made builds.

3. Is it "industry standard" or my server is a little over the top?

Your server is stacked with people who appreciate good combat skills over everything else. It's normal to be toxic when you expect from people to be on your skill level. Imagine being a programmer and working with 10 year olds, eventually you'll want better colleagues, someone closer to your knowledge/skill level, someone who you can actually work with.

4. Should I even care if I want to stay in WvW for fun pvp experience? Maybe I should learn to roam solo/in smaller groups instead of dealing with this kitten?

It all depends on your way of having fun. Do you like dueling? Small scale fights? Medium zerg/guild fights? Large blob fights? What do you like about those? How do you want to contribute to those? Can you achieve that fun in spvp?

5. How this strange culture even came to be. Is it really sustainable that way? Trying to get into WvW without proper knowledge and picking 'wrong' class can bring insta-toxicity and scare away potential new players way to easy.

New players need to realize that wvw is a team game, especially large scale fights. If you want to contribute to team you need to learn how to actually be a part of it and it requires certain builds, mindset and motivation. If you just join by thinking you can do whatever you want and be accepted as that you're probably more suited for single player game, not MMO.

I want to emphasise once more that I don't feel in place to call into question how WvW should work and pass my judgements as 'right'. I'm just random inexperienced guy who wants to know how the community he came across works.

Join their discord/teamspeak. Ask questions about anything that interests you.

[Zychuu.7294]

Ok guys. Thanks a lot for all the responses. I think I have a little better grasp on how this whole thing works. Even though I don't think I want to be a part of my server's community right now and I'm most likely going to switch(any ideas for nice EU not-Vabbi server?), I respect their right to play the game the way they want to.

@Larenc.1269 said:Join maguuma we don't care! Why? Because in 6 months you'll divorce us and leave crys

No joke though. if your NA sever related go to maguuma we will train you then ship you out to a new server and then we will train new ones to replace you but sadly we are starting to run out of people to train ;3

D: I'm so sad that unfortunately I'm EU. I would switch right away. Unfortunately I'm EU and still have to look for nice server for me to switch to.

[SteepledHat.1345]

Get rid of downed state and rally and zergs will care much less about what people run.

[Aiga.3075]

@Zychuu.7294 said:Ok guys. Thanks a lot for all the responses. I think I have a little better grasp on how this whole thing works. Even though I don't think I want to be a part of my server's community right now and I'm most likely going to switch(any ideas for nice EU not-Vabbi server?), I respect their right to play the game the way they want to.

@Larenc.1269 said:Join maguuma we don't care! Why? Because in 6 months you'll divorce us and leave

crys

No joke though. if your NA sever related go to maguuma we will train you then ship you out to a new server and then we will train new ones to replace you but sadly we are starting to run out of people to train ;3

D: I'm so sad that unfortunately I'm EU. I would switch right away. Unfortunately I'm EU and still have to look for nice server for me to switch to.

I have never played on a EU server so I don't know what the culture is like there but from everything I hear it sounds tryhard and toxic. A few NA servers have decent EU tz coverage maybe find one of them and switch to a NA server.

[XenesisII.1540]

There are elitist in wvw, there are also bad commanders who need perfect builds to help carry them, either way squad commanders are free to run their squad however they like. If you don't like it then continue to find a commander you like, or join a guild and run in their squad, or create your own squad.

Yes there are meta builds, no different than what you see in raids and fractals, you could just as well get kicked from those if you're not running a proper build. Some classes bring next to nothing in groups, which means they're built for smaller stuff like roaming, that's the way anet built them.

Lastly, wvw is more than just running in a squad as there are many other things to take care of in wvw, but if that's all you want to do then find a good group friendly class to play, if you're playing a class that's more suited for small combat or roaming then maybe do that and see how it goes.

[Miko.4158]

plenty of decent non toxic players in EU.however I'd recommend finding a wvw guild and joining that.it takes along time to talk through a wvw build suitable for you ...like 20 mins on ts,as for the elitism -decent tags take everybody, if there's a que they can try and toxic you off so -swap to someone else. ignore.Also if they have range or melee they will play accordingly not bark for everybody to change builds,defend, take camps, find a smaller group or follow the tag anyway.you can always block people, the boons in the zerg aren't the be all and end all, let them go first...

[subversiontwo.7501]

@"Zychuu.7294" said:Some questions:

1. Am I missing something and getting rid of 'non proper meta' players from the squad and have them just follow the tag on their own benefits anybody somehow?
2. Is really WvW so much about meta-building?
3. Is it "industry standard" or my server is a little over the top?
4. Should I even care if I want to stay in WvW for fun pvp experience? Maybe I should learn to roam solo/in smaller groups instead of dealing with this kitten?
5. How this strange culture even came to be. Is it really sustainable that way? Trying to get into WvW without proper knowledge and picking 'wrong' class can bring insta-toxicity and scare away potential new players way to easy.

I want to emphasise once more that I don't feel in place to call into question how WvW should work and pass my judgements as 'right'. I'm just random inexperienced guy who wants to know how the community he came across works.

1. Asking (both politely and impolitely) for players on specific builds or classes do benefit a squad.
2. It depends on what you mean by "meta-building", meta just generally refers to a common accepted level, a standard, it's not necessarily the best possible build(s). In squads and parties though, having cohesion and a good composition is quite important. It's an MMO so composition is a factor related to gameplay. It helps you do better but there are many situations in WvW where you can be more of an individualist and still do well in the face of a group.
3. It feels as if you are confusing WvW, server, squads and specific squads lead by specific commanders. See one and two.
4. One does not necessarily exclude the other. Do both?
5. It's really hard to pack six years of back-and-forth into a short reply. Just assume that there are many factors and development that you have yet to see. It goes with the whole meta thing. All classes can do useful things in WvW, all classes can even do useful things in your typical blob. It is just that some classes you need many of and others fewer of, some classes are easy to learn others are hard, some classes have low skillfloors allowing you to do well on them even if you are inexperienced while others do not. The list goes on. That factors into the discussion of "meta" and even in this summary I am only scratching the surface of what your question entales. Commanders, guilds, relationships etc. also factor in along the line.

[Sovereign.1093]

@"Zychuu.7294" said:Hello. I'm a relatively new player. I'm playing the game for maybe like 2 months with varying intensity but I enjoy the game, lore, story and most of the game modes a lot. One thing I cannot really grasp is strange culture of WvW squads. As a newbie I came here for explanations, not to make accusations but to be honest more often than not I feel that there is unreasonable amount of idk... elitism(?) in zerg wvw squads. Apparently the server I happen to play at has quite competitive WvW community(bonus points for guessing the server, I'm not going to namecall it right now). They seem to be relatively well organised with discord, dedicated site with meta builds for their zergs etc. The problem is that many commanders seem to have great pleasure in kicking people for sometimes clear sometimes not at all reasons varying from picking 'wrong' specialisation to having wrong food active, of course if anybody even bothers to clarify what went wrong before kicking people. It applies even to situation where there is clearly plenty of room in the squad left and 'having to make some room for GUT people' is not the case. I think I went through most of the scenarios. Got kicked without a word, kicked with info from kind stranger on what I did wrong, seen people got kicked for whatever reason, was allowed in with both more or less 'proper' build and terribly suboptimal for anything build only because specialisation marker and food buff checked out. Of course you don't have to be in the squad to follow the zerg but I can't really see how limiting people's ability to be in squad helps anyone, unless you are really short on slots and have to filter people out somehow. Commander denies access to squad chat, which can be inconvenient even if discord voice chat is being used. Commander on the other hand gets less information on state of the zerg with non-squad people running around etc. At least that's how I see it.

Some questions:

1. Am I missing something and getting rid of 'non proper meta' players from the squad and have them just follow the tag on their own benefits anybody somehow?
2. Is really WvW so much about meta-building?
3. Is it "industry standard" or my server is a little over the top?
4. Should I even care if I want to stay in WvW for fun pvp experience? Maybe I should learn to roam solo/in smaller groups instead of dealing with this kitten?
5. How this strange culture even came to be. Is it really sustainable that way? Trying to get into WvW without proper knowledge and picking 'wrong' class can bring insta-toxicity and scare away potential new players way to easy.

I want to emphasise once more that I don't feel in place to call into question how WvW should work and pass my judgements as 'right'. I'm just random inexperienced guy who wants to know how the community he came across works.

that sucks.

but yes, wvw culture rotates on voip and certain builds.

youll be lucky to be in agroup that is contrarian where everyone regresses to tje mean of meta.

make friends and youll have fun.

else, too many raging coms out there.

think party and guild, not zerg. for the zerg is controlled by the com. players can wine but have no bearing if they are not the ones leading.

dont like it, dont.join. want to join, conform. most coms know what their doing. coms are the most important.member in.a. server. without them, everything else is dead. few scouts duelers but... meh

[aspirine.6852]

Just one remark, do not make the mistake of going from vabbi to WSR, similar server so best leave that one to the so called elitists.

[aintiarna.4869]

@Zychuu.7294 said:Ok guys. Thanks a lot for all the responses. I think I have a little better grasp on how this whole thing works. Even though I don't think I want to be a part of my server's community right now and I'm most likely going to switch(any ideas for nice EU not-Vabbi server?), I respect their right to play the game the way they want to.

@"Larenc.1269" said:Join maguuma we don't care! Why? Because in 6 months you'll divorce us and leave

crys

No joke though. if your NA sever related go to maguuma we will train you then ship you out to a new server and then we will train new ones to replace you but sadly we are starting to run out of people to train ;3

D: I'm so sad that unfortunately I'm EU. I would switch right away. Unfortunately I'm EU and still have to look for nice server for me to switch to.

If a casual fun playstyle is your thing and you're looking for a "nicer" EU server where you can just relax then maybe try Piken Square or its current link Ruins of Surmia.

[Hex.2579]

those are asshat comms and since it's their squads, they could kick how they want, sadly.but i see there's no point in kicking people and they still follow the tag anyways, except not being able to see any commands or call outs ingame. so that's that.wvw isn't so much about meta building but wvw zerg is. because to be able to make sure you get enough dps to down a horde of people, at the same time need heal and cleanses to survive, you'll need specific classes that excel at these roles. and so the meta began and only narrowed down to a few classes at best at what they do.although my server ran off meta with pugs a lot, only a few comms can manage this without the poor pugs dying.in the end, most of us wanna zerg, we usually follow tag without joining until we get an invite or so. usually if your positioning is good, and you know what you're doing, they tend to send an invite left and right.i haven't roamed for a long time now since wvw reward system cuz now a roaming group that is smol is around 10 people or more. so you'll just get run over as a lonely roamer which is not fun anymore.stay a bit longer, maybe asking team chat which tag is running or what do they take? people would point you in the right direction. i have a lot of folks showing me around when i first started as a noob. lol.there are always asshat comms in every server. it doesn't make a server bad. it is what it is. we just have the hang with the right crowd xD

[Dawdler.8521]

@Hex.2579 said:i haven't roamed for a long time now since wvw reward system cuz now a roaming group that is smol is around 10 people or more. so you'll just get run over as a lonely roamer which is not fun anymore.

Which is why I said just tag up. You can be alone in the squad doing your own thing, that really doesnt matter. But people are drawn to a tag like flies to dung, making it so that you can actually beat those 10 people even if you dont command anything, just by having random friendlies around you.

Sometimes all thats needed is a little encouragement to get people moving. Show them you're not afraid to go 1v10 even if you're alone. Also guilt trip them for not helping the tag. That helps too.

[Tiny Doom.4380]

I definitely think the behaviors the OP describes must be either server or time-zone specific - or both. I've been in WvW since launch, mainly on Yaks Bend and for the last couple of years on many servers with my Ehmry Bay guest-linked account; I frequently (most days) hot-join open squads, usually on one of my three Eles but also on various rangers, necros and sometimes just whoever I happen to be on when a map call is issued.

In six years I have never once been kicked from a squad on any character or asked to change my build. I have very often heard Commanders ask politely if people would mind changing to another class or expressing a concern that we have too many of class X and not enough of class Y but I have never seen anyone kicked over such concerns and if people don't change class the Commander invariably tries to carry on as best they can with what they have. That would seem to be the point of Pugmanding.

I try not to join Guild squads even when they are open because quite reasonably they do expect specific classes and builds but guild Commanders frequently squad invite me anyway if I'm nearby so I end up running with them too. Maybe I just happen not to have been on or linked with a server that takes this stuff uber-seriously or perhaps because I play EU hours on NA servers Commanders are just happy to have warm bodies following the tag, but there are definitely looser and more friendly experiences to be had in WvW than those the OP has been unfortunate enough to encounter.

[Hex.2579]

@Dawdler.8521 said:Which is why I said just tag up. You can be alone in the squad doing your own thing, that really doesnt matter. But people are drawn to a tag like flies to dung, making it so that you can actually beat those 10 people even if you dont command anything, just by having random friendlies around you.

Sometimes all thats needed is a little encouragement to get people moving. Show them you're not afraid to go 1v10 even if you're alone. Also guilt trip them for not helping the tag. That helps too.

no thanks xD i'll just spvp and wait for the next wvw rework. my server pugs are a different story.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Tiny Doom.4380 said:I definitely think the behaviors the OP describes must be either server or time-zone specific - or both. I've been in WvW since launch, mainly on Yaks Bend and for the last couple of years on many servers with my Ehmry Bay guest-linked account; I frequently (most days) hot-join open squads, usually on one of my three Eles but also on various rangers, necros and sometimes just whoever I happen to be on when a map call is issued.

In six years I have never once been kicked from a squad on any character or asked to change my build. I have very often heard Commanders ask politely if people would mind changing to another class or expressing a concern that we have too many of class X and not enough of class Y but I have never seen anyone kicked over such concerns and if people don't change class the Commander invariably tries to carry on as best they can with what they have. That would seem to be the point of Pugmanding.

I try not to join Guild squads even when they are open because quite reasonably they do expect specific classes and builds but guild Commanders frequently squad invite me anyway if I'm nearby so I end up running with them too. Maybe I just happen not to have been on or linked with a server that takes this stuff uber-seriously or perhaps because I play EU hours on NA servers Commanders are just happy to have warm bodies following the tag, but there are definitely looser and more friendly experiences to be had in WvW than those the OP has been unfortunate enough to encounter.

I would guess NA (EST) prime would be the biggest concentration of this, where the majority of fite guilds come on and also when pugs are most plentiful and often poor. Sometimes they will tell other people to get off their map to get their 50 on. Other times, I would guess people are going to be less picky about their choices.

As a side note though, it's not really that big of a deal to be not in a squad since it's about boon sharing anyways and it's more important for the squad to stay alive anyways... players not playing builds optimized for this wouldn't benefit the squad as a whole and then everyone would wipe.

[LJ Dots.4261]

There has already been some excellent comments from people (above) so I don't have much more to add.Just wanted to say I've been here for a while with multiple servers and multiple Guilds ranging from fun/casual/pugging/hardcore and fortunately have never seen anything to the extent that you're descibing - and I'm a crappy player to boot!

Your last two months is not indicative of the community I've experienced in general who are genuinely helpful - don't let that spoil your experience.Best of luck and have fun out there.

[Hoon.1524]

This anti-meta BS is seen too often. Once again, when goal/purpose (largescale, blob-busting, GvG, etc) and context (balance patch, etc) are defined, there is objectively a most effective way to build, called a "meta". It's silly to argue against the exitence of it. And how are the ones who "find" these meta's? The ones calculating and testing everything, which often are the hc/GvG guilds/players. NO different in PvE, where everyone and their grandmother look to the couple of top-guilds to provide them with the best builds every patch.