The new marked debuff is only targeted towards thiefs and a bit too much

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:its not gutted, just can't be used around curtain areas as a mean to just simply hide and hang around, even 2 seconds is enough time juke another player(s) and get away. stealth is a means of thief defence and or to land stealth attacks. i was never meant to hide indefinitely, same goes to other stealth heavy classes.

2s is not if the other player is actually 3 PPT monkeys who HAVE to make sure sentries and dolyaks are properly looked after otherwise their T3 keep might not have enough siege in it. 2s is far too short a time, it's shorter than every stealth ability other than veil and signet of midnight, renders several traits at reduced effectiveness for no reason and likewise can render some skills entirely unusable.

Ever thought what this marked does to shadow refuge? Yeah it actually makes the skill unusable in the literal sense. This is why I say marked should reveal you after 10s but an argument can be made for 8s allowing you to at least get some stealth after standing around in a big "hit here" circle like a plonker.

@Will.9785 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Will.9785 said:how would people feel if there was a similar mechanic that prevented mesmer clones from being generated?Oh you mean something like... damage?

Damage doesn't prevent them from being created. I'm taking something along the lines of this new marked mechanic wherein every 5 seconds your clones are automatically killed and you cannot create any new ones for 2 seconds.

Same thing for necro condi - every 5 seconds your condis are all cleansed and for 2 seconds you cant apply new ones.

Seems fair right? I mean since folks are OK with thief getting broken they should be ok with these changes too.

Actually the excessively high damage from power creep means clones don't actually live that long in melee (clones frequently die on creation), ranged clones tend to last a lot longer but then the shatters travel at

base movement speed

to the enemy which honestly if you can't dodge or simply outrun at that point then you'd have to be a potato. Clones for the most part have cool downs (unless using DE) so yeah the power creep has definitely affected clones in a similar way to how you describe and now they have to deal with what little stealth they have being destroyed by marked.

We're in the same boat ya know.

Ok, well #1 You shouldn't be expecting to achieve much if there is a solo person vs 2/3 unless they are total potatoes.

If you're going to have this thing to reveal after 8/10 seconds then there is 0 point in having this new mechanic at all.

People will have to adapt how and where they play if they want to play greedy stealth builds.

I don't want to win, I just want to gtfo of there before they pew pew me to death and with only 2s of stealth you ain't escaping no-one. I have a full 5s (2s+3s) of total stealth on my build and I generally use it sparingly but when I see 3 people coming I stack it for 5s and high tail it outta there, most of the time they see me in the distance but I'm ooc and can keep away or at least waypoint if they're hell bent on chasing.

The change they made was heavy handed and now punishes ALL stealth users irrespective of how little of it they use. This isn't about being greedy it's about not having your skills reduced in effectiveness for flipping a blooming sentry.

Care to comment on how it literally makes a skill in the game (shadow refuge) unusable? I don't know of anything else that affects any other skill in the game like that.

Edit: For people that want a non stealth analogy, imagine if marked made it so your guardian mantras had only 1 standard charge and went on full cool down after.

What utter nonsense.

Never ever heard of a necro, ele or a guadain complain about not having stealth while they roam

, hell, necro dosnt even have an invul. This is part of roaming, if you dont want to meet people who out number you then you shouldn't be playing solo.

Stealth has been heavily abused for many years now and it's about time something got done, and this is only at hot spots- Not the whole of wvw.

why would they complain? they did simply roam on other professions or in groups mostly as it was compared to utilizing stealth for picking fights, highly inefficient.if we get most our damage skills on rev, ele, necro etc. turned to single target only and the support skills to self support only, then the core double bow rangers now following tag will argument in the same way you do now: but i had to deal with that since allways, time you guys play on my level of efficiency.

Your level of efficiency is so broken that you don't really play as you're afk instead 90% of the time, what a joke.

I did tell you via a whisper discussion a few months back that de will get nerfed 1 way or another (was hoping for the back stab). And this is better then I ever thought. You still get to perms stealth and pick off people, ppt guys don't have to worry about chasing a de inside a tower/keep.

I have already seen a rise in numbers of acro/daredevil staff thrives since the change.

[Arioch.4810]

What utter nonsense. Never ever heard of a necro, ele or a guadain complain about not having stealth while they roam, hell, necro dosnt even have an invul. This is part of roaming, if you dont want to meet people who out number you then you shouldn't be playing solo.

Necro, ele or a guardian: Why this sounds like a regular TS call to flesh out zerg for some ppt action. While being poor ( for some of those - terrible) roamers these 3 professions do have an option to flip some camps solo and then join squad. 2 stealth offenders (thief and Mes) are not equal in this regard - Mesmer can join squad, but thief? What does he bring to large scale action?This is why I think looking at roaming should not be the same for all classes.

Stealth has been heavily abused for many years now and it's about time something got done, and this is only at hot spots- Not the whole of wvw.

Indeed!Veil+bomb is something you can't bring in line within constraints of large scale fights. Hiding in structures for some suprise flips, contesting all day long... not good for the game mode imo.Going form 100 to downstate with no room for counterplay - bad in all gamemodes.Something had to be done with stealth, i think we all agree on that.

I would give thief some compensation tho: attempting to gain stealth while revealed could produce swiftness for instance, or protection, or remove 1 movement impending condition - give them a chance to disengage/withdraw. I would also code this to only proc off self applied stealth while revealed.

[bq pd.2148]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:its not gutted, just can't be used around curtain areas as a mean to just simply hide and hang around, even 2 seconds is enough time juke another player(s) and get away. stealth is a means of thief defence and or to land stealth attacks. i was never meant to hide indefinitely, same goes to other stealth heavy classes.

2s is not if the other player is actually 3 PPT monkeys who HAVE to make sure sentries and dolyaks are properly looked after otherwise their T3 keep might not have enough siege in it. 2s is far too short a time, it's shorter than every stealth ability other than veil and signet of midnight, renders several traits at reduced effectiveness for no reason and likewise can render some skills entirely unusable.

Ever thought what this marked does to shadow refuge? Yeah it actually makes the skill unusable in the literal sense. This is why I say marked should reveal you after 10s but an argument can be made for 8s allowing you to at least get some stealth after standing around in a big "hit here" circle like a plonker.

@Will.9785 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Will.9785 said:how would people feel if there was a similar mechanic that prevented mesmer clones from being generated?Oh you mean something like... damage?

Damage doesn't prevent them from being created. I'm taking something along the lines of this new marked mechanic wherein every 5 seconds your clones are automatically killed and you cannot create any new ones for 2 seconds.

Same thing for necro condi - every 5 seconds your condis are all cleansed and for 2 seconds you cant apply new ones.

Seems fair right? I mean since folks are OK with thief getting broken they should be ok with these changes too.

Actually the excessively high damage from power creep means clones don't actually live that long in melee (clones frequently die on creation), ranged clones tend to last a lot longer but then the shatters travel at

base movement speed

to the enemy which honestly if you can't dodge or simply outrun at that point then you'd have to be a potato. Clones for the most part have cool downs (unless using DE) so yeah the power creep has definitely affected clones in a similar way to how you describe and now they have to deal with what little stealth they have being destroyed by marked.

We're in the same boat ya know.

Ok, well #1 You shouldn't be expecting to achieve much if there is a solo person vs 2/3 unless they are total potatoes.

If you're going to have this thing to reveal after 8/10 seconds then there is 0 point in having this new mechanic at all.

People will have to adapt how and where they play if they want to play greedy stealth builds.

I don't want to win, I just want to gtfo of there before they pew pew me to death and with only 2s of stealth you ain't escaping no-one. I have a full 5s (2s+3s) of total stealth on my build and I generally use it sparingly but when I see 3 people coming I stack it for 5s and high tail it outta there, most of the time they see me in the distance but I'm ooc and can keep away or at least waypoint if they're hell bent on chasing.

The change they made was heavy handed and now punishes ALL stealth users irrespective of how little of it they use. This isn't about being greedy it's about not having your skills reduced in effectiveness for flipping a blooming sentry.

Care to comment on how it literally makes a skill in the game (shadow refuge) unusable? I don't know of anything else that affects any other skill in the game like that.

Edit: For people that want a non stealth analogy, imagine if marked made it so your guardian mantras had only 1 standard charge and went on full cool down after.

What utter nonsense.

Never ever heard of a necro, ele or a guadain complain about not having stealth while they roam

, hell, necro dosnt even have an invul. This is part of roaming, if you dont want to meet people who out number you then you shouldn't be playing solo.

Stealth has been heavily abused for many years now and it's about time something got done, and this is only at hot spots- Not the whole of wvw.

why would they complain? they did simply roam on other professions or in groups mostly as it was compared to utilizing stealth for picking fights, highly inefficient.if we get most our damage skills on rev, ele, necro etc. turned to single target only and the support skills to self support only, then the core double bow rangers now following tag will argument in the same way you do now: but i had to deal with that since allways, time you guys play on my level of efficiency.

Your level of efficiency is so broken that you don't really play as you're afk instead 90% of the time, what a joke.

I did tell you via a whisper discussion a few months back that de will get nerfed 1 way or another (was hoping for the back stab). And this is better then I ever thought. You still get to perms stealth and pick off people, ppt guys don't have to worry about chasing a de inside a tower/keep.

I have already seen a rise in numbers of acro/daredevil staff thrives since the change.

i think you overestimate the effect of these changes on deadeyes.it mostly affects keep captures, but thats it. no marking on tower capture or infiltration.the trap itself is different but it is not all negative compared to the old one, in most cases certainly it is now better for the deadeye. because you dont get instant revealed on trigger and the reveal is only 5s. with 5s reveals you can perfectly fight most of those ppt guys outnumbered. yet with the old 30s reveals if you run out of shadowmelds you better run away. not being instant means you also have more control over the fight as you dont pop out of stealth on their choice of location where they are prepared to burst you.

for me the marking as such on the map is a much greater issue than the reveal and affecting every roamer. it certainly wont help with the fact that most 'roamers' that are not pushovers run in packs. so more group roaming, less solo roaming. yes probably less stealthers, but id prefer to fight a stealther over fighting a group of roamers any day. ill focus on larger scale WvW and PvE (need gold, lots of it) for a while till i might get interested in roaming again. yet the rewards are trash, the scene is very toxic and skill is irrelevant for a long time now, so i am not sure if it will peak my interest again without severe changes to the mode.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:its not gutted, just can't be used around curtain areas as a mean to just simply hide and hang around, even 2 seconds is enough time juke another player(s) and get away. stealth is a means of thief defence and or to land stealth attacks. i was never meant to hide indefinitely, same goes to other stealth heavy classes.

2s is not if the other player is actually 3 PPT monkeys who HAVE to make sure sentries and dolyaks are properly looked after otherwise their T3 keep might not have enough siege in it. 2s is far too short a time, it's shorter than every stealth ability other than veil and signet of midnight, renders several traits at reduced effectiveness for no reason and likewise can render some skills entirely unusable.

Ever thought what this marked does to shadow refuge? Yeah it actually makes the skill unusable in the literal sense. This is why I say marked should reveal you after 10s but an argument can be made for 8s allowing you to at least get some stealth after standing around in a big "hit here" circle like a plonker.

@Will.9785 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Will.9785 said:how would people feel if there was a similar mechanic that prevented mesmer clones from being generated?Oh you mean something like... damage?

Damage doesn't prevent them from being created. I'm taking something along the lines of this new marked mechanic wherein every 5 seconds your clones are automatically killed and you cannot create any new ones for 2 seconds.

Same thing for necro condi - every 5 seconds your condis are all cleansed and for 2 seconds you cant apply new ones.

Seems fair right? I mean since folks are OK with thief getting broken they should be ok with these changes too.

Actually the excessively high damage from power creep means clones don't actually live that long in melee (clones frequently die on creation), ranged clones tend to last a lot longer but then the shatters travel at

base movement speed

to the enemy which honestly if you can't dodge or simply outrun at that point then you'd have to be a potato. Clones for the most part have cool downs (unless using DE) so yeah the power creep has definitely affected clones in a similar way to how you describe and now they have to deal with what little stealth they have being destroyed by marked.

We're in the same boat ya know.

Ok, well #1 You shouldn't be expecting to achieve much if there is a solo person vs 2/3 unless they are total potatoes.

If you're going to have this thing to reveal after 8/10 seconds then there is 0 point in having this new mechanic at all.

People will have to adapt how and where they play if they want to play greedy stealth builds.

I don't want to win, I just want to gtfo of there before they pew pew me to death and with only 2s of stealth you ain't escaping no-one. I have a full 5s (2s+3s) of total stealth on my build and I generally use it sparingly but when I see 3 people coming I stack it for 5s and high tail it outta there, most of the time they see me in the distance but I'm ooc and can keep away or at least waypoint if they're hell bent on chasing.

The change they made was heavy handed and now punishes ALL stealth users irrespective of how little of it they use. This isn't about being greedy it's about not having your skills reduced in effectiveness for flipping a blooming sentry.

Care to comment on how it literally makes a skill in the game (shadow refuge) unusable? I don't know of anything else that affects any other skill in the game like that.

Edit: For people that want a non stealth analogy, imagine if marked made it so your guardian mantras had only 1 standard charge and went on full cool down after.

What utter nonsense.

Never ever heard of a necro, ele or a guadain complain about not having stealth while they roam

, hell, necro dosnt even have an invul. This is part of roaming, if you dont want to meet people who out number you then you shouldn't be playing solo.

Stealth has been heavily abused for many years now and it's about time something got done, and this is only at hot spots- Not the whole of wvw.

why would they complain? they did simply roam on other professions or in groups mostly as it was compared to utilizing stealth for picking fights, highly inefficient.if we get most our damage skills on rev, ele, necro etc. turned to single target only and the support skills to self support only, then the core double bow rangers now following tag will argument in the same way you do now: but i had to deal with that since allways, time you guys play on my level of efficiency.

Your level of efficiency is so broken that you don't really play as you're afk instead 90% of the time, what a joke.

I did tell you via a whisper discussion a few months back that de will get nerfed 1 way or another (was hoping for the back stab). And this is better then I ever thought. You still get to perms stealth and pick off people, ppt guys don't have to worry about chasing a de inside a tower/keep.

I have already seen a rise in numbers of acro/daredevil staff thrives since the change.

i think you overestimate the effect of these changes on deadeyes.it mostly affects keep captures, but thats it. no marking on tower capture or infiltration.the trap itself is different but it is not all negative compared to the old one, in most cases certainly it is now better for the deadeye. because you dont get instant revealed on trigger and the reveal is only 5s. with 5s reveals you can perfectly fight most of those ppt guys outnumbered. yet with the old 30s reveals if you run out of shadowmelds you better run away. not being instant means you also have more control over the fight as you dont pop out of stealth on their choice of location where they are prepared to burst you.

for me the marking as such on the map is a much greater issue than the reveal and affecting every roamer. it certainly wont help with the fact that most 'roamers' that are not pushovers run in packs. so more group roaming, less solo roaming. yes probably less stealthers, but id prefer to fight a stealther over fighting a group of roamers any day. ill focus on larger scale WvW and PvE (need gold, lots of it) for a while till i might get interested in roaming again. yet the rewards are trash, the scene is very toxic and skill is irrelevant for a long time now, so i am not sure if it will peak my interest again without severe changes to the mode.

Nah, I know it's only keeps, but it's far easier now to mark a de with the new trick inside a tower.

The pack of roamers either go to nc via sentry on purpose to gain an audience or they will go the long way where the asuras and centars are.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

Detected works, but is nothing but a temporary fix. Stealth needs to be reworked across the board. It's too troublesome of a mechanic as it is.Detected allows only 2 seconds of stealth. That is a lot of time being fully invisible, allowing a wide area for the thief to move, but way too soon to lose stealth completely.Stealth needs a middle ground between the two. A partial stealth that keeps stealth from being too long, without fully removing it.

Because of that, I think what stealth needs is not some half meassure that is either too much or too little. But a full rework.

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:Stealth needs a rework to address its bugs, its issues and the problems it causes.
It can't be left as it is, because problems from it keep popping up. Eventually, something will have to be done.But it can't be removed, and there's definitely no quick fixes for it, and changes should not just be done to nerf it. It doesn't needs nerfing. It needs fixing.

After juggling and bouncing ideas over and over, I think this one came closer to what I'd like to see for stealth.At this moment I think it all comes down to 4 points:

• Fix its bugs:
  • When leaving stealth, players seem to load the enemy model right after stealth ends. Because of this, some people will take longer to see the model at all, and the model will play the animation for the current action from the start. So when it may seem the finisher just started, it may be actually ending, and properly timing interrupts becomes practically impossible.
  • Losing any effect that gives stealth will often reveal the character even if they still have other stealth effects like Camouflage or Hide in Shadows.
• Make sure the full invisibility effect of stealth can't last too long when fighting against players, while still being lasting against AI.
  • The longer full stealth lasts, the harder is to tell where the cloaked enemy is. And that greatly reduces the risks of using stealth as both an offensive and defensive tool. Yeah, experienced players can deal with it, but the game isn't just for experienced players. It has to be intuitive for all and welcoming for newbies.
  • The way to address this problem that I like the most is "Stealth Decay". After a couple of seconds, stealth would go from completely invisible to partially visible. This partial visibility would be even more noticeable while the thief is moving.
  • Decayed stealth would keep the player untargetable, and most NPCs and player-controlled AI would still ignore them, but players would be able to see them if they pay attention, as they would appear partially visible with a translucent effect. Even if they can't be targeted, AoEs, cleaves and aimed projectiles can still hit them, just like always. It'd be just a bit easier to know where to hit with them.
  • Getting stealth from combos and other players would not reset stealth back to fully invisible, with a few exceptions. For example, Mass Invisibility would reset stealth on allies and have a skill fact that says "Resets ally stealth" , but Veil would not.
  • Using skills and triggering traits that give stealth to self would reset stealth to fully invisible.
  • Getting stealth from allied skills or from skill combos in a smoke field would not reset full invisibility, it would just reset the time of decayed stealth.
• Revealed is an "all or nothing" mechanic. A skill either reveals or it doesn't. That doesn't leave room for adjustment and balance.
  • One way to address this problem is a new "Suspicion" mechanic.
  • Suspicion would be a stacking effect that is accumulated with certain actions done while under stealth. When someone gets a certain number of stacks, they would lose stealth and all suspicion stacks, and get revealed for the same duration as when getting revealed with a direct attack. Revealing oneself with a direct attack would also remove all Suspicion stacks.
  • It would be accumulated from actions that should not reveal right away or if done sparingly, but should reveal eventually if done repeatedly, like:
    • Applying or having DPS conditions ticking on enemies.
    • Finishing an enemy
    • Getting hit with direct attacks. Standing in front of someone to attack them while they swing a weapon has never been a good idea, but suspicion would make it an ever worse idea.
    • Hitting with a stray projectiles that were fired before getting stealth, that hits after getting it. One may give stealth to allies, but they can't just stop a projectile already fired. Which means that without voice chat to warn them to stop attacking right before getting stealth, stealth given to allies firing projectiles is often wasted. These projectiles can't be made no to trigger stealth or that would be exploited. Suspicion fixes that by letting them hit just a bit from stealth without losing it, but not do it repeatedly.
    • Missed attacks that hit nothing would give a small amounts of suspicion, like when spamming an attack without anyone in range, hitting the air; or someone moves away from the trajectory of a projectile, or moves behind an obstacle and the attack is obstructed. Missed attacks from being blind would give a bit more suspicion that attacking the air, but still a small amount.
    • Attacking someone blocking or invulnerable would give a large amount of suspicion or reveal right away as always.
    • Triggering traps and having your traps triggered. Stacking traps would stack so much Suspicion that it would always reveal, but it should be possible to use skills like Shadow Trap without sparingly being revealed right away from triggering it. Walking over too many traps even while evading should also reveal eventually.
  • Revealed caused by enemies will not reset stacks of suspicion. Only receiving revealed from Suspicion or one's own attacks would reset stacks of suspicion back to 0.
  • Shadow Meld would still remove revealed, but it would not clear stacks of suspicion.
• We can't have a lot of AoE revealing skills like Detection Pulse, Sight Beyond Sight or Gaze of Darkness because there are no counters for it other than Shadow Meld. Removing revealed is something so troublesome it has to be limited to an elite skill. If a mechanic was added to act as a 'stability' for stealth, that prevents being instantly revealed when entering stealth, that would be solved by giving a pre-emptive safety tool without giving more Revealed removal.
  • For example, Unrevealable would be an effect given by some skills that cause stealth, but not all sources of stealth. Unrevealable would usually be seen in skills meant to have a survival or panic button use like Hide in Shadows, Blinding Powder or Decoy.
  • It would last very little, like just from 0.75s to 1s, as it's mostly meant to avoid spam of revealing skills to be able to get away from danger.
  • It would only apply to self, skills that give allies stealth and make oneself unrevealable won't make other allies unrevealable, with a few exceptions like Mass Invisibility.
  • Revealed makes characters immune to Unrevealable like it does with stealth, so it will only work while not revealed or if the stealth skill giving unrevealable also removes revealed like Shadow Meld.
  • Getting Unrevealable would also reset decayed stealth to full stealth.
  • Unrevealable would not prevent being revealed by attacking enemies or from getting Suspicion, only being revealed by enemy skills.
  • Stealth from combos on smoke fields would never give unrevealable.

With all these new mechanics combined, stealth can be made not to stack, but also last way more, having stealth skills that give 2-4s being able to give 10s or more. And even being able to make an Elite thief signet with a passive effect that constantly pulses decayed stealth and an active effect that gives stealth for 10s, and unrevealable for 0.75s.At the same time, revealing skills could be more frequent. For example:

• Hallowed Ground could pulse 1s revealed, or cause it one time for 3s when cloaked enemies try to enter the area.
• "Nothing Can Save You!" could get 6s of revealed.
• Rangers could get a Bat land pe and and a Dolphin underwater pet that have an Echolocation skill that deals 5s AoE revealed.
• An elementalist sand-themed pulsing AoE like sandstorm could also pulse revealed.
• Null Field could also pulse or cause revealed.

If something like that is done, "Perma-stealth" would be possible, but it would be much more manageable, and easier to balance in the future. And Detected could be removed from Marked.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:or they will go the long way where the asuras and centars are.Did... did you just call skritt... asurans?

[Shroud.2307]

@"apharma.3741" said:

Ever thought what this marked does to shadow refuge? Yeah it actually makes the skill unusable in the literal sense. This is why I say marked should reveal you after 10s but an argument can be made for 8s allowing you to at least get some stealth after standing around in a big "hit here" circle like a plonker.

Yeah. Sneak Gyro says "hi." At least Shadow Refuge heals you and can't be destroyed.

[bq pd.2148]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:or they will go the long way where the asuras and centars are.Did... did you just call skritt... asurans?

you expect a human to see a difference between the two?

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:or they will go the long way where the asuras and centars are.Did... did you just call skritt... asurans?

...? Yeah!

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@"apharma.3741" said:

Ever thought what this marked does to shadow refuge? Yeah it actually makes the skill unusable in the literal sense. This is why I say marked should reveal you after 10s but an argument can be made for 8s allowing you to at least get some stealth after standing around in a big "hit here" circle like a plonker.

Yeah. Sneak Gyro says "hi." At least Shadow Refuge heals you and can't be destroyed.

Ha! Shadow refuge is also a bit of a trick because I use to drop it and the cluster bomb it as it's a dark field (as I knew people will go.b it)

[apharma.3741]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@"apharma.3741" said:

Ever thought what this marked does to shadow refuge? Yeah it actually makes the skill unusable in the literal sense. This is why I say marked should reveal you after 10s but an argument can be made for 8s allowing you to at least get some stealth after standing around in a big "hit here" circle like a plonker.

Yeah. Sneak Gyro says "hi." At least Shadow Refuge heals you and can't be destroyed.

Very true, though sneak gyro you can sort of utilise the stealth, SR you can only get 2s of stealth in the area but can't leave or you get revealed and if you stay in you're a target and get revealed before the end. SR is literally a catch 22.

[Biermeister.4678]

I like the new mechanics and it works great on Hollowsmith and beastmaster

[Luranni.9470]

I don't run stealth, on the rare occasions I do it's for a siege disable. The other day I put my shadow refuge down next to an enemy sentry. PROOOOOO! :D