Staff needs some love

[X T D.6458]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Scarran.9845 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The proposals and ideas to buff staff have to be based on it's theme, not on a comparison of what other weapons do.

I understand where you are coming from but when you look as recently as the November patch notes the devs stated for ele sword changes "The weaver's sword has been underperforming a bit when compared to several of the core elementalist weapons".

This has been the case for other weapon changes too like in June with warrior's torch and rifle changes which they stated was to make them a more competitive option. So they have been known to take into consideration what other weapons do when applying changes. Which is why for me I suggested earlier in this thread that I would prefer a full rework, so that it is either made into a viable utility weapon or altered to be a damage dealing weapon, depending on how the developers want it to perform.

Right now the only thing the staff does reliably well is to annoy people with the auto attack sound effect.

The problem is that it's not really clear what a 'good performing' staff on Necro actually is; that statement from Anet is awfully vague. I do think that if you take an objective look at what Staff does, because it's not really a DPS-focused weapon, even if it is underperforming, it's hard to think that will be remedied with a DPS buff.

The problem for me is the lack of consistency with the staff. The auto attack is slow and the damage is power based, the marks inflict conditions and trigger instantly on targets :/. This is also the only weapon in game where 4/5 skills cant be used on downed players, siege weapons, or any destructible objects.

It's very dangerous to come to the conclusion something is a problem if you don't know what it's original intention is and are using other comparisons to make those conclusions.

Huh?

[Rhyse.8179]

Once upon a time Staff was the ideal MM weapon. Regen and weakness to keep your minions alive, condi transfer that cleansed your minions and transfered to foes, and a wee bit of CC.

All of those things were nerfed a long time ago. Putrid mark no longer affects allies. Mark of blood does less damage and less regen. The other skills were not strong enough to make up for the loss.

Revert those nerfs and it will be useable again, if not amazing. A complete rework would also be great. I'd love to see each mark leave a different field, and have the AA be a 100% finisher.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@X T D.6458 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Scarran.9845 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The proposals and ideas to buff staff have to be based on it's theme, not on a comparison of what other weapons do.

I understand where you are coming from but when you look as recently as the November patch notes the devs stated for ele sword changes "The weaver's sword has been underperforming a bit when compared to several of the core elementalist weapons".

This has been the case for other weapon changes too like in June with warrior's torch and rifle changes which they stated was to make them a more competitive option. So they have been known to take into consideration what other weapons do when applying changes. Which is why for me I suggested earlier in this thread that I would prefer a full rework, so that it is either made into a viable utility weapon or altered to be a damage dealing weapon, depending on how the developers want it to perform.

Right now the only thing the staff does reliably well is to annoy people with the auto attack sound effect.

The problem is that it's not really clear what a 'good performing' staff on Necro actually is; that statement from Anet is awfully vague. I do think that if you take an objective look at what Staff does, because it's not really a DPS-focused weapon, even if it is underperforming, it's hard to think that will be remedied with a DPS buff.

The problem for me is the lack of consistency with the staff. The auto attack is slow and the damage is power based, the marks inflict conditions and trigger instantly on targets :/. This is also the only weapon in game where 4/5 skills cant be used on downed players, siege weapons, or any destructible objects.

It's very dangerous to come to the conclusion something is a problem if you don't know what it's original intention is and are using other comparisons to make those conclusions.

Huh?

Obtena thinks he works for ANet. Just ignore him and move on.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

Obtena im a little slow here but your name backwards mate...starts with anet, is there something you're not telling us? This is all very puzzly

[Celepito.7130]

IMO, all staff needs is a short (2,5 sec ?) bleed on Staff 1, (maybe a 1/4 sec casttime reduction on everything) and make marks trigger on objects, siege and downed players. Marks are useless against some bosses, simply because they dont activate.

[Obtena.7952]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Scarran.9845 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The proposals and ideas to buff staff have to be based on it's theme, not on a comparison of what other weapons do.

I understand where you are coming from but when you look as recently as the November patch notes the devs stated for ele sword changes "The weaver's sword has been underperforming a bit when compared to several of the core elementalist weapons".

This has been the case for other weapon changes too like in June with warrior's torch and rifle changes which they stated was to make them a more competitive option. So they have been known to take into consideration what other weapons do when applying changes. Which is why for me I suggested earlier in this thread that I would prefer a full rework, so that it is either made into a viable utility weapon or altered to be a damage dealing weapon, depending on how the developers want it to perform.

Right now the only thing the staff does reliably well is to annoy people with the auto attack sound effect.

The problem is that it's not really clear what a 'good performing' staff on Necro actually is; that statement from Anet is awfully vague. I do think that if you take an objective look at what Staff does, because it's not really a DPS-focused weapon, even if it is underperforming, it's hard to think that will be remedied with a DPS buff.

The problem for me is the lack of consistency with the staff. The auto attack is slow and the damage is power based, the marks inflict conditions and trigger instantly on targets :/. This is also the only weapon in game where 4/5 skills cant be used on downed players, siege weapons, or any destructible objects.

It's very dangerous to come to the conclusion something is a problem if you don't know what it's original intention is and are using other comparisons to make those conclusions.

Huh?

Obtena thinks he works for ANet. Just ignore him and move on.

Or you could just ... you know ... try some sound thinking? When people make statements like 'AA is slow and that's a problem' ... well, don't assume Anet didn't make it slow by design. Your statement actually implies that Anet implements ideas they don't intend? Like, somehow Anet sat around and said "Oh, we should have a pretty fast AA on Necro Staff .... but let's make it slow instead, just because it's not what we wanted to do" ...

Yes, you don't need to work at Anet to see these obvious connections. Sort of like that time where everyone was QQing about dagger not being sufficient as a Scourge weapon because it didn't have bleed on AA ... allrighty then.

[Scarran.9845]

@Obtena.7952 said:Or you could just ... you know ... try some sound thinking? When people make statements like 'AA is slow and that's a problem' ... well, don't assume Anet didn't make it slow by design.

But that was designed before the game launched and as GW2 has evolved its evident that the staffs current implementation is behind the times. Just because it hasn't changed doesn't mean that the devs do not want to change it, they may want to change it but its low priority or they may feel the Necro community is happy with the weapon in its current state.

If enough people comment on their dislike for how the weapon performs/operates then it may draw enough attention that they will do something about it, but until people voice what they dislike about it, how is Anet going to know what needs changing or what people dislike about it.

Just like the Trait panel that has gone through changes since launch and various other aspects of the game that has altered since launch it doesn't mean that it's initial design should not or cannot be changed.

[Obtena.7952]

@Scarran.9845 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Or you could just ... you know ... try some sound thinking? When people make statements like 'AA is slow and that's a problem' ... well, don't assume Anet didn't make it slow by design.

But that was designed before the game launched and as GW2 has evolved its evident that the staffs current implementation is behind the times.

That sounds really convincing but it's vague as all get out. Again, I'm not saying staff couldn't use some attention, but it is not hard to see what staff is and does. The question here is how well it does that thing. For example, when people say staff doesn't do enough damage, they aren't looking at how well it does the thing it was meant to do; Staff was never functional as a good DPS weapon and I have no reason to think based on the array of other weapons available and what those weapons they do, that staff ever will be. Why would a bunch of DPS buffs and a design rework for staff even be considered by Anet? The chance that Anet maintains the flavour of what staff was meant to do is very high because 1) the theme is pretty unique to the class and 2) the class (any class) should benefit from access to a weapon that works like staff does ... and no one needs to work at Anet to see this either. The insinuations that people are making to ignore very simple game design concepts are not helpful here.

[Cicatrix.6149]

I was just thinking about Necro staff today, as I've finally built a Scourge. In my opinion, Necro staff could go from one of the worst weapons in the game to one of the most fun (at least for me) with a just a few changes. It could be a really great weapon for a support Scourge by adding more of the healing we desperately desire to compete with other support classes in all game types. This is what I would like to see changed:

• Speed up autoattack like everyone suggests and maybe add something like burning to it.
• Since Soul Reaping/Blood Magic/Scourge are the go to specializations for support Necros, why not change Soul Marks in the Soul Reaping tree to not only give extra life force but also allow each mark to trigger a heal; an aoe heal maybe somewhere in the range of a 600-1200 heal per person hit depending on your +healing.

I don't know what the math on that would mean for the healing meta. I just know that I would enjoy the hell out of the staff a lot more if it also healed. This would just fit in so perfectly with a Scourge build. At the same time, I wouldn't want the horrible dps and condies on it to be reduced to compensate. I play a druid as well and absolutely loathe the lack of dps on the healing staff, a healing staff that barely does any healing. Speaking of that abomination, please fix Druid staff as well, it is a sad sad creature (except for they stylized mobility of skill 3, which is a truly beautiful thing).

[Scarran.9845]

@Obtena.7952 said:That sounds really convincing but it's vague as all get out.

You sure that your name is not captain obvious? Of course its vague because I do not know the developers or what they are thinking. But going from prior experience in other mmo games and including this one you tend to find if enough people complain about something it tends to get altered. You also do not know what the developers are thinking or what is in the pipeline.

But if enough people complain about staff, it might get a dps buff or it might get small tweaks or they might do something like they done with the Plague skill and completely change its function. I know changing a skill and doing a full rework on a weapon are different but they have shown they are not adverse to changing things. Doesn't mean that people should not think out of the box when suggesting stuff, as if the developers dislike their suggestions then they can simply ignore them.

[Obtena.7952]

No, I don't know; again, I don't need to work at Anet to see what a staff does and what it doesn't do. If you are of the understanding that these weapons are developed with a theme or a purpose, then you know those theme/purpose are likely to be maintained. Hence, my opinion about what is or isn't likely to happen on staff. It's not a DPS spammer and it shouldn't be, for LOTS of reasons. The best one being that it was obviously never intended for that. There are reasons for that too. Perhaps ignoring these facts is really convenient but the best buffs staff could get have nothing to do with boosting it's damage.

[Scarran.9845]

@Obtena.7952 said:Perhaps ignoring these facts is really convenient but the best buffs staff could get have nothing to do with boosting it's damage.

So what your saying is no damage boost at all, despite the fact the staff had nerf's done to it's damage a long time ago and with the apparent power creep in the game that came with each expansion?

So what changes would you do to staff?

[Obtena.7952]

@Scarran.9845 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Perhaps ignoring these facts is really convenient but the best buffs staff could get have nothing to do with boosting it's damage.

So what your saying is no damage boost at all, despite the fact the staff had nerf's done to it's damage a long time ago and with the apparent power creep in the game that came with each expansion?

So what changes would you do to staff?

Really? Is there a comprehension problem here? That's NOT what I said.

I mean, maybe you think a DPS boost is a worthy buff. Maybe you haven't used staff for a while. Maybe you haven't seen what Reaper GS does for DPS or tried a Condi Scourge. Maybe you think staff will be 'better' because of some significant damage buff. I don't know what would make anyone think that considering we already have better DPS weapons AND the secondary stuff on staff would still be rather crap.

I've already mentioned changes I would make to staff, though perhaps those things were too vague for you and you're just looking for an argument. I'm afraid I will have to leave you hanging there; I think if you were honestly open to discussion on what I've said previously, you would have done so before now.

Add all the DPS you want to staff; it's still going to be a garbage weapon because no one uses staff for damage in the first place; that's not it's purpose. How about we think about what's actually wrong with the weapon and solve those things instead of pretending that some kind of blindly-applied DPS boost saves it?

[killfil.3472]

Has anyone made a poll (pull? pöll?) for a full staff ability rework with a yes/no thingy? That may be a more consistent clue for the Developers...

[Svarty.8019]

@Silmariena.6205 said:Let's say it again and completely openly: marks are not even half the skills of other classes, they are useless for construction, dmg is none especially condi and the hopeless AA speed is not even debatable. I will repeat what others have repeated millions of times : STAFF NEED A FULL REWORK .

This is all great from a PvE perspective, but in WvW, staff is great for zerg fights and also for marking up walls. STAFF IS GOOD IN WVW.

[Scarran.9845]

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Silmariena.6205 said:Let's say it again and completely openly: marks are not even half the skills of other classes, they are useless for construction, dmg is none especially condi and the hopeless AA speed is not even debatable. I will repeat what others have repeated millions of times : STAFF NEED A FULL REWORK .

This is all great from a PvE perspective, but in WvW, staff is great for zerg fights and also for marking up walls. STAFF IS GOOD IN WVW.

There is a difference between good and being used because it is the only weapon we have to deal with those on keep walls.

Staff is more of a nuisance at best in WvW and the only reason it is used is because our other weapons or utilities range/functionality bring us too close so that you end up getting even more arrows to the face, aoe bombed from on top of the walls or caught out of position as your too close.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

Every. Single. Necro. That is how many no matter Base, Reaper or Scourge. They ALL use it. So why exactly does it need to be buffed or redesigned? It's used by everyone. If it was a weapon that was hardly used by anyone then i would agree it would need work but when EVERYONE runs it. It cant be that weak surely...

[Swagg.9236]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:Every. Single. Necro. That is how many no matter Base, Reaper or Scourge. They ALL use it. So why exactly does it need to be buffed or redesigned? It's used by everyone. If it was a weapon that was hardly used by anyone then i would agree it would need work but when EVERYONE runs it. It cant be that weak surely...

Necro staff is a trash game design carried entirely by a passive. If you just changed how life force generation worked to my Soulreap idea (which functions independently of weapon choice), you would probably never see staff used again.

[Svarty.8019]

@Scarran.9845 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:

@"Silmariena.6205" said:Let's say it again and completely openly: marks are not even half the skills of other classes, they are useless for construction, dmg is none especially condi and the hopeless AA speed is not even debatable. I will repeat what others have repeated millions of times : STAFF NEED A FULL REWORK .

This is all great from a PvE perspective, but in WvW, staff is great for zerg fights and also for marking up walls. STAFF IS GOOD IN WVW.

There is a difference between good and being used because it is the only weapon we have to deal with those on keep walls.

Staff is more of a nuisance at best in WvW and the only reason it is used is because our other weapons or utilities range/functionality bring us too close so that you end up getting even more arrows to the face, aoe bombed from on top of the walls or caught out of position as your too close.

So we should get rid of the useful marks on staff and force even more necros into the Scourge elite? I wouldn't put it past Anet to do this to "encourage" yet more players to throw money at PoF.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@Swagg.9236 said:Necro staff is a trash game design carried entirely by a passive. If you just changed how life force generation worked to my Soulreap idea (which functions independently of weapon choice), you would probably never see staff used again.

It would still be used. Because its mindless condition application. Its you swap to it. Spam all the Marks and thats it, the only problem is you are then left using the auto attack, waiting for weapon swap to come back up and maybe see if you can get another mark out and then swap away. I see it used by all builds. Condi, Power, Hybrid. They. All. Use. It

I would have preferred if it was a melee based weapon, can keep the conditions, fear and such. just make it a FUN melee weapon. That is why i love the Revenant Staff and the Mesmer Staff. They are both fun to use. They are more than spam marks because Mark spamming is one of 2 things:

1) Spam them on target2) Spam them on yourself.

[jalmari.3906]

AA triggers conditions and other effects from those AoE circles constantly. There is your condition damage. Also pierces and has extremely long range. If you want more damage there is plenty of other options.

And all 2,3,4,5 are incredibly strong in pvp and you only need some minor trait to make it unblockable, which is kind of OP. Just spamming 2345 is random order makes people go down even if you have no clue what you are doing.

Just because it doesn't do what you want in a way you want doesn't make it underpowered.

[Scarran.9845]

@jalmari.3906 said:AA triggers conditions and other effects from those AoE circles constantly. There is your condition damage. Also pierces and has extremely long range.

Can I ask how AA triggers conditions and effects from the AOE circles constantly when only one mark has a combo field and AA only has a 20% chance to proc its finisher? Putrid mark is the only reliable blast finisher on staff and that is on a 20 second cooldown.

If people are going down to random spams of staff they must be really really bad at the game, the damage is pitiful in comparison to our other weapons and the cooldown on the only mark that does anything other than tickle damage (putrid mark) is on a 20 second cooldown. That is not including that one mark is on a16 second cooldown, other 20 second, fear mark is 32 seconds. The only spammable mark is mark of blood and their is a reason the blood magic line has it included as an adept minor trait as its not very powerful.