Let actual skilled PvPers redesign PvP with a dev.

[omgdracula.6345]

@Patrick.2987 said:Easiest way to balance specs is probably to make pvp core specs only as they are not used in pve much i think and balance them for pvp. Would be way easier than balance with all the specs out there but still no one actually really cares to make a change, players won't put their effort in for it cause no rewards and devs won't because of a small playerbase and it would cost money and resources.

This is not a bad idea at all. But I like at gw1 with all the combos you could do with dual professions and all the variety there was and nothing ever seemed too over the top. In gw1 I usually felt whoever won the battle played it better. Now half the time I just go what the hell happened!?

[zoopop.5630]

people complaining about getting a top 250 spot is pretty petty as fuck, i would understand if it was top 10 or even top 25. Having one dude with 5 accounts camping the top 10 spots is pretty fucking dumb but hey they got all the time in the world to do so and sell the accounts or whatever then all the power to you for having the free time for it.

Btw anet at fault for this game balance direction and guide on not wanting to take this game mode serious in the first place, the moment win trading was a think and not having any serious punishment for it was the biggest troll move they could of done. It's as bad as the season where they took titles OUT and SAID they wont be giving titles that season to players.......but then they decide to MAIL titles to them anyway which cause a major issue with the community yet again.

If anyone gonna blame someone for the state of the spvp community and how crap it is blame the team that's supposedly taking charge/notes of everything. The balance has always been completely fucking random for most cases, the "upgrades" for new maps have always been MIA or really crap, Tournaments are beyond RNG and also pretty long on a wait. Just about everything done for the spvp has been slow, or really clunky.

[Chasind.3128]

@Ziggityzog.7389 said:Easy fix. Let the one and only person working on pvp part time go and re hire all of the gw1 pvp team. Sit back wait for HoH, GVG, Team Arena, Random Arena, and Alliance battles.

Then watch hordes of players come to play.

Gw1 pvp devs did it right

[apharma.3741]

@Chasind.3128 said:

@Ziggityzog.7389 said:Easy fix. Let the one and only person working on pvp part time go and re hire all of the gw1 pvp team. Sit back wait for HoH, GVG, Team Arena, Random Arena, and Alliance battles.

Then watch hordes of players come to play.

Gw1 pvp devs did it right

Tell that to smiter's boon.

[Delweyn.1309]

@bluri.2653 said:

@"sephiroth.4217" said:Yea, no...We in this mess because of top players..

They made a joke of the game at ESL and continue to plague the ranks with alts and win trading since then, they are a good chunk of the reason to the death of PVP.

Actually you are wrong, PoF balance is an aftermath after leaving ESL and serious PvP Competition where devs do not feel the pressure to fix broken stuff because they don't care to uphold a standard good enough for serious PvP/ESL, this means they cater towards the casuals.

So in other words, you casuals are to" blame" for the lack of proper balance which makes people quit :)

Casuals have the right to play pvp too, as skilled players have the right to have a competitive pvp too.

I wonder why anet didn't want to add just another mode for "casuals".

• A 10v10 (or 15v15) in big maps like WOW's Battlegrounds, without ranks taking into account. Just put together the firsts players in the queue.
• And work on the 5v5 conquest mode but for 5v5 teams only. Not just AT.

Like this everyone should be pleased and a lot more people would come to pvp.

But as I said, Anet never wanted to work on anything else than their unique gamemode. It's not casuals fault. They have the right to play too.

[omgdracula.6345]

@Delweyn.1309 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@"sephiroth.4217" said:Yea, no...We in this mess because of top players..

They made a joke of the game at ESL and continue to plague the ranks with alts and win trading since then, they are a good chunk of the reason to the death of PVP.

Actually you are wrong, PoF balance is an aftermath after leaving ESL and serious PvP Competition where devs do not feel the pressure to fix broken stuff because they don't care to uphold a standard good enough for serious PvP/ESL, this means they cater towards the casuals.

So in other words, you casuals are to" blame" for the lack of proper balance which makes people quit :)

Casuals have the right to play pvp too, as skilled players have the right to have a competitive pvp too.

I wonder why anet didn't want to add just another mode for "casuals".

• A 10v10 (or 15v15) in big maps like WOW's Battlegrounds, without ranks taking into account. Just put together the firsts players in the queue.
• And work on the 5v5 conquest mode but for 5v5 teams only. Not just AT.

Like this everyone should be pleased and a lot more people would come to pvp.

But as I said, Anet never wanted to work on anything else than their unique gamemode. It's not casuals fault. They have the right to play too.

Literally no one is saying that casuals are not allowed to pvp. We are all saying that balancing towards that group is not a good idea. Balancing towards high level play means if a player wants to get better they have to learn their class, learn other classes. All that would lead to is better players overall. The truth is players are just lazy. They want the most rewards for minimum effort. That isn't how things work. Put in minimum effort, expect minimum results.

[Delweyn.1309]

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Delweyn.1309 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@"sephiroth.4217" said:Yea, no...We in this mess because of top players..

They made a joke of the game at ESL and continue to plague the ranks with alts and win trading since then, they are a good chunk of the reason to the death of PVP.

Actually you are wrong, PoF balance is an aftermath after leaving ESL and serious PvP Competition where devs do not feel the pressure to fix broken stuff because they don't care to uphold a standard good enough for serious PvP/ESL, this means they cater towards the casuals.

So in other words, you casuals are to" blame" for the lack of proper balance which makes people quit :)

Casuals have the right to play pvp too, as skilled players have the right to have a competitive pvp too.

I wonder why anet didn't want to add just another mode for "casuals".

• A 10v10 (or 15v15) in big maps like WOW's Battlegrounds, without ranks taking into account. Just put together the firsts players in the queue.
• And work on the 5v5 conquest mode but for 5v5 teams only. Not just AT.

Like this everyone should be pleased and a lot more people would come to pvp.

But as I said, Anet never wanted to work on anything else than their unique gamemode. It's not casuals fault. They have the right to play too.

Literally no one is saying that casuals are not allowed to pvp. We are all saying that balancing towards that group is not a good idea. Balancing towards high level play means if a player wants to get better they have to learn their class, learn other classes. All that would lead to is better players overall. The truth is players are just lazy. They want the most rewards for minimum effort. That isn't how things work. Put in minimum effort, expect minimum results.

The problem is that esport failed.So why dev. would want to work around "skilled" players when the majority of players are "casuals" ?If "skilled" players was paying hundred dollars every days maybe Anet would begin to listen to them. But it's not the case. So they adapt for the majority.But by doing this, they don't please "skilled". And "casuals" are never happy because they don't have content (in balance or in game modes) adapted for them.

So this is GW2's pvp state and I think that both "pro" and "cusuals" will have to deal with this because nothing will change.It's like the bots, problems are here but nothing will be done.We have all to accept this or leave.At least, they leave forum for both parties to cry or fight indefinitively, as it is a way to relieve them of their frustrations.

[Sylosi.6503]

@Delweyn.1309 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@"sephiroth.4217" said:Yea, no...We in this mess because of top players..

They made a joke of the game at ESL and continue to plague the ranks with alts and win trading since then, they are a good chunk of the reason to the death of PVP.

Actually you are wrong, PoF balance is an aftermath after leaving ESL and serious PvP Competition where devs do not feel the pressure to fix broken stuff because they don't care to uphold a standard good enough for serious PvP/ESL, this means they cater towards the casuals.

So in other words, you casuals are to" blame" for the lack of proper balance which makes people quit :)

Casuals have the right to play pvp too, as skilled players have the right to have a competitive pvp too.

I wonder why anet didn't want to add just another mode for "casuals".

• A 10v10 (or 15v15) in big maps like WOW's Battlegrounds, without ranks taking into account. Just put together the firsts players in the queue.
• And work on the 5v5 conquest mode but for 5v5 teams only. Not just AT.

Like this everyone should be pleased and a lot more people would come to pvp.

But as I said, Anet never wanted to work on anything else than their unique gamemode. It's not casuals fault. They have the right to play too.

The truth is players are just lazy.

The truth is anyone that genuinely wants skilled, competitve PvP is not playing a 6 year old MMORPG (or even an MMORPG fullstop) where most of the playerbase are more interested in playing dress-up than anything else. Where the game aims for you, where balance is hopelessly compromised between PvP & PvE raids (and a hopelessly open skill/trait/weapon system) and where most of what little competitive playerbase there was, left years ago.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Chasind.3128 said:

@Ziggityzog.7389 said:Easy fix. Let the one and only person working on pvp part time go and re hire all of the gw1 pvp team. Sit back wait for HoH, GVG, Team Arena, Random Arena, and Alliance battles.

Then watch hordes of players come to play.

Gw1 pvp devs did it right

Tell that to smiter's boon.

Smiter's boon was not a good nerf but it was a good decision in the grand scheme of things.

[omgdracula.6345]

@Delweyn.1309 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Delweyn.1309 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@"sephiroth.4217" said:Yea, no...We in this mess because of top players..

They made a joke of the game at ESL and continue to plague the ranks with alts and win trading since then, they are a good chunk of the reason to the death of PVP.

Actually you are wrong, PoF balance is an aftermath after leaving ESL and serious PvP Competition where devs do not feel the pressure to fix broken stuff because they don't care to uphold a standard good enough for serious PvP/ESL, this means they cater towards the casuals.

So in other words, you casuals are to" blame" for the lack of proper balance which makes people quit :)

Casuals have the right to play pvp too, as skilled players have the right to have a competitive pvp too.

I wonder why anet didn't want to add just another mode for "casuals".

• A 10v10 (or 15v15) in big maps like WOW's Battlegrounds, without ranks taking into account. Just put together the firsts players in the queue.
• And work on the 5v5 conquest mode but for 5v5 teams only. Not just AT.

Like this everyone should be pleased and a lot more people would come to pvp.

But as I said, Anet never wanted to work on anything else than their unique gamemode. It's not casuals fault. They have the right to play too.

Literally no one is saying that casuals are not allowed to pvp. We are all saying that balancing towards that group is not a good idea. Balancing towards high level play means if a player wants to get better they have to learn their class, learn other classes. All that would lead to is better players overall. The truth is players are just lazy. They want the most rewards for minimum effort. That isn't how things work. Put in minimum effort, expect minimum results.

The problem is that esport failed.So why dev. would want to work around "skilled" players when the majority of players are "casuals" ?If "skilled" players was paying hundred dollars every days maybe Anet would begin to listen to them. But it's not the case. So they adapt for the majority.But by doing this, they don't please "skilled". And "casuals" are never happy because they don't have content (in balance or in game modes) adapted for them.

So this is GW2's pvp state and I think that both "pro" and "cusuals" will have to deal with this because nothing will change.It's like the bots, problems are here but nothing will be done.We have all to accept this or leave.At least, they leave forum for both parties to cry or fight indefinitively, as it is a way to relieve them of their frustrations.

So you want to focus around skilled players so that there is something for your player base to aim towards. Else it just invalidates what they worked for, and decreases their amount of effort they put in, and effort towards content. Think of it this way.

Back when I was in elementary school we had a reading program and we got gold stars for each book we read. Every 10 books we got a coupon for a pizza at pizza hut. But then other kids wouldn't read books but complained they never got a pizza so they decreased it to half of that. Just like how getting a trophy in summer league baseball even though your team lost every game. If everyone is made out to be special, then no one is. There will be 0 difference between a pro player or a casual because despite all of the pros efforts, a casual can just mash buttons and win.

[Caysadia.2548]

Maybe its from a lack of resources, a lack of interest, or just poor knowledge of the current playscape, but there are things in the game right now that are clearly and obviously broken or unhealthy.

Unless youre trolling or just bad at the game there are things every competent player can agree on. Scourge is aids to fight even if it isnt op anymore, mirage is both aids to fight and deals way too much condi and power damage for the defensive power it has, and boonbeast is just disgustingly overtuned. No matter how biased you are if you have any semblance of a brain you can accept these truths, yet Anet has barely done anything to these specs over the last year and a bit. Theyve even buffed some, and with the next xpac coming out in 2020 at the earliest, its discouraging to know we'll be stuck fighting specializations that just dont work for pvp for some time to come.

[Vieux P.1238]

To be honest, i don't think any players would do anything more then the devs are doing now. In my mind, getting players or player involved would just be bad cuz of bias ideas. & in the end would still be broken. But let's say for the purpous of the thread we did got with the op's idea. Let's say it would be me. Well At the exception of graphics & character model's first thing i would do is trash PVP entirely. What does that mean? Means i just trashed the last 6 years of $$$ invested into that mode. But sometimes not fearing to do so is better then the alternative of bleeding out more $$$ in this losing game mode that can never be fix. I would implement a new addictive & innovative way to build that has nothing to do related to PVE. & that with out breaking balance. How....??? Why would i tell when i can get paid for it? Thing is, game mode as is , is gone & dead even if there lingering players. & players like me that do find pvp alternatives tends not to come back. No matter how many patches or fixes. The game mode is dead & needs to start fresh.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I'm not a pro player but here's a balancing suggestion - deal away with class stacking. And let core necro get more then one single stab stack ffs. Unless 1.5s stab from well of power is to be counted as 2nd.... -.-

[sephiroth.4217]

Wow I got 10 notifications and reading through the responses it seems that the truth hurts.

Funny though that the goal posts have been moved, which is why I didnt respond to anyone directly.

If you guys believe the game was more competitive after ESL, Tokens and the release of expansions then I wont try and convince you otherwise, I just feel sorry that you missed the better times.

Also about the top 250 spots, Im not complaining, I was pointing out that you cant call people delusional when posting something delusional.. Its not healthy at all for players to have more than 1 account on the leaderboard, even if its only 1 extra then thats 1 player who unfairly missed out.... Sadly most of us know theres several players with several accounts up there... I'm just saying I don't believe we should listen to those guys, the very people who continue to exploit the system, I don't believe they are the best players to listen too...

[sephiroth.4217]

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Delweyn.1309 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@"sephiroth.4217" said:Yea, no...We in this mess because of top players..

They made a joke of the game at ESL and continue to plague the ranks with alts and win trading since then, they are a good chunk of the reason to the death of PVP.

Actually you are wrong, PoF balance is an aftermath after leaving ESL and serious PvP Competition where devs do not feel the pressure to fix broken stuff because they don't care to uphold a standard good enough for serious PvP/ESL, this means they cater towards the casuals.

So in other words, you casuals are to" blame" for the lack of proper balance which makes people quit :)

Casuals have the right to play pvp too, as skilled players have the right to have a competitive pvp too.

I wonder why anet didn't want to add just another mode for "casuals".

• A 10v10 (or 15v15) in big maps like WOW's Battlegrounds, without ranks taking into account. Just put together the firsts players in the queue.
• And work on the 5v5 conquest mode but for 5v5 teams only. Not just AT.

Like this everyone should be pleased and a lot more people would come to pvp.

But as I said, Anet never wanted to work on anything else than their unique gamemode. It's not casuals fault. They have the right to play too.

Literally no one is saying that casuals are not allowed to pvp. We are all saying that balancing towards that group is not a good idea. Balancing towards high level play means if a player wants to get better they have to learn their class, learn other classes. All that would lead to is better players overall. The truth is players are just lazy. They want the most rewards for minimum effort. That isn't how things work. Put in minimum effort, expect minimum results.

Win trading is less effort than actually playing in Gold and trying to win.There's also bots.

Worst thing that players did who weren't top players - Advocate for Solo/Duo queue... Top players will be at top regardless of team or not and the players who wanted it like this have all but left shortly after realizing that even with solo queue they still got beat by the same top players.

Your statement is correct "the truth is players are just lazy." - But it applies to all players.

[Swagg.9236]

@"Apolo.5942" said:For god sakes NO, basemen dwellers with no jobs "pros", complained and complained and that got us the blow you up meta.

Design around average players NOT "pros", assume most players either can not or are not willing to learn to play a simphony on their keyboard to play this game.

Not that I don't think that players wouldn't generally do a lot better of a PvP design job than a blindly corporate-managed company staffed with 1-year contract interns like Arenanet, but from what I've taken from the GW2 playerbase, they really don't know anything about what makes a fair or engaging PvP video game. I mostly blame Anet for this considering that the game's fundamental designs haven't changed much since launch (and to that end, people who became wholesale invested into the baseline meta of GW2 PvP have mostly become damaged by its paradigms), but in truth the biggest voices in the GW2 community are probably the absolute worst sort of people to ask about what makes a fun or fair video game.

[Swagg.9236]

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@Patrick.2987 said:Easiest way to balance specs is probably to make pvp core specs only as they are not used in pve much i think and balance them for pvp. Would be way easier than balance with all the specs out there but still no one actually really cares to make a change, players won't put their effort in for it cause no rewards and devs won't because of a small playerbase and it would cost money and resources.

This is not a bad idea at all. But I like at gw1 with all the combos you could do with dual professions and all the variety there was and nothing ever seemed too over the top. In gw1 I usually felt whoever won the battle played it better. Now half the time I just go what the hell happened!?

Let's let this be a benchmark for what happened between GW1 and GW2:

• Shadowsteps were introduced in Guild Wars 1 Factions. They were never instant-cast (nearly so, however, at 0.25s, but not something that one could do while stunned; the only one which allowed players to do this was a stance called Shadow Walk, but eventually even that was nerfed in a particular way in order to prevent too much abuse). They were also things which never gave users range beyond what was already a shared range for all standard spells.
• Every shadowstep was globally nerfed at one point because none of them carried any aftercast and E/x were using them to instantly PBAoE bomb targets and shrine nodes in PvP matches. They were given a hefty 0.75s aftercast to prevent people from immediately chaining skills after teleporting. This killed most of the E/x-centric bomb teams (and tangentially also nerfed W/A Bulls Strike users and Assassin closing power by preventing shadowsteps from giving them free crits on moving/fleeing targets).

Guild Wars 2 gets teleports everywhere. None of them have aftercast and many of them can be chained in order to instantly engage players from well outside of 1200 range (and sometimes even through terrain changes or walls). However, this really isn't even the tip of the game design iceberg (the big meat of it was probably how GW2 is super spammy with attacks typically resolving around the 0.5s mark while GW1 cannot really layer any abilities and all offensive strikes from any range fall somewhere between a baseline of 1s (for ranged spells) to 1.33-1.66 for non-IAS melee attacks). People complain about losing things like the attribute system, dual-classing or the streamlined gear system (all of which are super critical to what made GW1 so good), but the worst offense was making every class in GW2 into a selfish, one-man-army that spams skills at will rather than respective core parts of a party which works with other players in order to defeat PvE enemies and other PvP teams in small-scale skirmishes.