Will mirage ever get a proper nerf?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@apharma.3741 said:

@UfoCoffee.2084 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:mesmers and thieves are so broken, any real nerf would be a complete redesign. So best to just ban those classes from pvp and wvw. Problem solved.

I hope u mean DE specifically cuz core theif is far from broken and needs buffs

S/D isn't in a bad place. D/P needs a slight damage buff. Deadeye is annoying but easy to kill if you focus it. Bad players just ignore it and let if freecast.

D/P doesn't need a damage buff. Nerf sustain/defence across classes so there's more openings. Maybe also look at the damage these sustaining builds can do too so the D/P thief isn't getting killed in 2 hits by a build that can tank the +1 to some degree.

I agree that a nurf to sustain across the board not effectively making thief squishiest would help but if that doesn’t help core definitely needs a damage boost so u can actually stand a chance fighting back with a s/d,dd or d/p build without having to have three times the skills of ur opponent lol

[Caine.8204]

Nerf Distortion by 1s, have it only grant distortion when you shatter an illusion.

Trait that gives blind on Shatter: ICD of 3 seconds (per target)

Have mirage cloak count as a block instead of an evade, so unblockable attacks can still hit the Mesmer.

Balanced.

[mortrialus.3062]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:mesmers and thieves are so broken, any real nerf would be a complete redesign. So best to just ban those classes from pvp and wvw. Problem solved.

Thief? Really? I feel like thieves overall are on the back foot right now.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:mesmers and thieves are so broken, any real nerf would be a complete redesign. So best to just ban those classes from pvp and wvw. Problem solved.

Thief? Really? I feel like thieves overall are on the back foot right now.

They are! It’s why a lot of thief players resort to a spec like DE,maybe some find it fun but I’d imagine most don’t or it getting old fast,but it is atleast effective

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Thieves and the act of asking for damage buffs, name a more iconic duo.Make dagger autos spam great again.

[apharma.3741]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@UfoCoffee.2084 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:mesmers and thieves are so broken, any real nerf would be a complete redesign. So best to just ban those classes from pvp and wvw. Problem solved.

I hope u mean DE specifically cuz core theif is far from broken and needs buffs

S/D isn't in a bad place. D/P needs a slight damage buff. Deadeye is annoying but easy to kill if you focus it. Bad players just ignore it and let if freecast.

D/P doesn't need a damage buff. Nerf sustain/defence across classes so there's more openings. Maybe also look at the damage these sustaining builds can do too so the D/P thief isn't getting killed in 2 hits by a build that can tank the +1 to some degree.

I agree that a nurf to sustain across the board not effectively making thief squishiest would help but if that doesn’t help core definitely needs a damage boost so u can actually stand a chance fighting back with a s/d,dd or d/p build without having to have three times the skills of ur opponent lol

Lead attacks was nerfed because it was basically a free 15% damage boost for picking the line where most comparable lines give about a 10% damage buff or less.

While the change to lead attacks has reduced D/P's ability to burst and secure a kill it's not the primary reason it is not competitive compared to S/D. If needed a slight buff of 10% to backstab might help compensate for lead attacks loss but I'd be very careful considering assassin's signet allows for meme one shot s already on a lot of classes and a 10% buff will scale to more on these.

[phokus.8934]

@Caine.8204 said:Nerf Distortion by 1s, have it only grant distortion when you shatter an illusion.

Trait that gives blind on Shatter: ICD of 3 seconds (per target)

Have mirage cloak count as a block instead of an evade, so unblockable attacks can still hit the Mesmer.

Balanced.

It’s a good thing you’re not working for ANet. I’ve read some bad ideas but this is near the top.

[Caine.8204]

@phokus.8934 said:

@Caine.8204 said:Nerf Distortion by 1s, have it only grant distortion when you shatter an illusion.

Trait that gives blind on Shatter: ICD of 3 seconds (per target)

Have mirage cloak count as a block instead of an evade, so unblockable attacks can still hit the Mesmer.

Balanced.

It’s a good thing you’re not working for ANet. I’ve read some bad ideas but this is near the top.

They have a 70% chance to evade or avoid an attack, while having some of the highest single target damage in the game. They also have access to permanent regen, and then protection through chaos armor/chaos storms.

If anything, having the dodge count as a block rather than a complete evade would bring them into balanced territory.

Having a blind on every shatter is also a root cause of their invulnerability. Either nerf this, nerf the distortion, nerf the dodge, or all 3.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@apharma.3741 said:

@UfoCoffee.2084 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:mesmers and thieves are so broken, any real nerf would be a complete redesign. So best to just ban those classes from pvp and wvw. Problem solved.

I hope u mean DE specifically cuz core theif is far from broken and needs buffs

S/D isn't in a bad place. D/P needs a slight damage buff. Deadeye is annoying but easy to kill if you focus it. Bad players just ignore it and let if freecast.

D/P doesn't need a damage buff. Nerf sustain/defence across classes so there's more openings. Maybe also look at the damage these sustaining builds can do too so the D/P thief isn't getting killed in 2 hits by a build that can tank the +1 to some degree.

^ This

D/P deals plenty of damage. It's other classes classes puking boons all over the place that needs to be nerfed. That or Thieves in general need a little bit more hard sustain. Anymore nowadays, they really do get 2 shot by everything.

[Caine.8204]

Alternative Nerfs:

Distortion cooldown increased by 10s.

Phase Shift cooldown increased by 2s.

Blink cooldown increased by 10s.

Axes of Symmetry(Axe 3) cooldown increased by 2s.

Illusionary Ambush cooldown increased by 10s.

[phokus.8934]

@Caine.8204 said:

@phokus.8934 said:

@Caine.8204 said:Nerf Distortion by 1s, have it only grant distortion when you shatter an illusion.

Trait that gives blind on Shatter: ICD of 3 seconds (per target)

Have mirage cloak count as a block instead of an evade, so unblockable attacks can still hit the Mesmer.

Balanced.

It’s a good thing you’re not working for ANet. I’ve read some bad ideas but this is near the top.

They have a 70% chance to evade or avoid an attack, while having some of the highest single target damage in the game. They also have access to permanent regen, and then protection through chaos armor/chaos storms.

If anything, having the dodge count as a block rather than a complete evade would bring them into balanced territory.

Having a blind on every shatter is also a root cause of their invulnerability. Either nerf this, nerf the distortion, nerf the dodge, or all 3.

Mirage Cloak isn’t being changed to a block, so let’s take that off the board right away.

Distortion being changed to work with clones makes little sense since the player was made baseline as a clone.

The only thing that makes somewhat sense is modifying blinding dissipation. I’m not sure an ICD makes sense but wouldn’t be off the table.

There’s a bit wrong with Mirage but I can only see the issues being around Axe. But I’m beyond the point of trying to figure out ANets balance plans because there have been good discussions on what part of Mirage is overpeforming but once the balance patch hits, they don’t come near changing the problematic areas.

They should’ve modified axe 3 in a way that mattered but instead lowered the physical damage... headscratcher

[BlackBeard.2873]

Start with fixing all of the stupid target-drops that act as a free invuln when fighting someone with targeted skills. It is fun to fight PvP, it is not fun to fight PvUI. Just once, each person on the balance team should be forced to play something like a scepter ele, or rifle engineer, vs. a mirage and understand exactly how frustrating (and strong) these mechanics they add are.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:mesmers and thieves are so broken, any real nerf would be a complete redesign. So best to just ban those classes from pvp and wvw. Problem solved.

Thief? Really? I feel like thieves overall are on the back foot right now.

There is poor design, and then there is power level. Thief power-level is lower because other classes have poor design with tons of blocks/invulns/evades/etc. Thief design has ALWAYS been poor, as they have fundamentally been able to bypass too many core game mechanics that it causes a problem. For instance, the the number of instant ports just destroys the idea of good positioning with the exception of learning stupid hacks like spots you can abuse where a thief can't port. This is bad design. The old ability to spam attacks in stealth and not be punished (remember when at the start of the game there was no ways to apply reveal, or properly punish poor backstab attempts because they could just keep on spamming, forcing you to blow dodges/CD's with no benefit). The number of skills that evade while doing damage (especially daggerstorm now). Even the general design of stealth (no real drawbacks, like slowing you, or failing if you walk in front of someone, or having some kind of semi-transparency, etc.) is really poor design that is hard for players to learn to play against, leads to frustration, and is anti-fun for either the thief or his opponent. Anet really did a disservice by balancing the class around having these stupidly OP mechanics, as it made any version of the class that doesn't maximize their abuse impossible to design. It has also lead to the long-term hate of the class that most players have, while creating the perfect class for the type of toxic player who thinks he is superior for landing 1 hit KO's with no tell (this isn't all thieves by a long shot).

This all should be fixed, but it SHOULD have been fixed near the start of the game and it never was, so I don't think it ever will. Just CHOO CHOO down the power-creep express where EVERY class is loaded up with mechanics that ignore important game aspects and lack counterplay.

[Julius Seizure.4985]

@phokus.8934 said:

@Caine.8204 said:

@phokus.8934 said:

@Caine.8204 said:Nerf Distortion by 1s, have it only grant distortion when you shatter an illusion.

Trait that gives blind on Shatter: ICD of 3 seconds (per target)

Have mirage cloak count as a block instead of an evade, so unblockable attacks can still hit the Mesmer.

Balanced.

It’s a good thing you’re not working for ANet. I’ve read some bad ideas but this is near the top.

They have a 70% chance to evade or avoid an attack, while having some of the highest single target damage in the game. They also have access to permanent regen, and then protection through chaos armor/chaos storms.

If anything, having the dodge count as a block rather than a complete evade would bring them into balanced territory.

Having a blind on every shatter is also a root cause of their invulnerability. Either nerf this, nerf the distortion, nerf the dodge, or all 3.

Mirage Cloak isn’t being changed to a block, so let’s take that off the board right away.

I agree, Mirage Cloak needs to lock out actions during it’s animation and then provide a 2 second window to activate an ambush skill. It needs to be a normal dodge that doesn’t apply counter pressure or allow freely protected heals/stomps/rez etc.

Here is a list of things that would STILL make Mirage Cloak better than base dodge:

• Can still dodge when Immobilized.
• Can still dodge when CCed.
• Still has 33% more evade frames (1 seconds vs 3/4).
• Still allows for better positioning/control.

Mirage will pretty much never be balanced unless this happens. The only other option is to so completely gut core skills and traits but then base Mesmer and Chrono will suffer.

[Caine.8204]

@Julius Seizure.4985 said:

@phokus.8934 said:

@Caine.8204 said:

@phokus.8934 said:

@Caine.8204 said:Nerf Distortion by 1s, have it only grant distortion when you shatter an illusion.

Trait that gives blind on Shatter: ICD of 3 seconds (per target)

Have mirage cloak count as a block instead of an evade, so unblockable attacks can still hit the Mesmer.

Balanced.

It’s a good thing you’re not working for ANet. I’ve read some bad ideas but this is near the top.

They have a 70% chance to evade or avoid an attack, while having some of the highest single target damage in the game. They also have access to permanent regen, and then protection through chaos armor/chaos storms.

If anything, having the dodge count as a block rather than a complete evade would bring them into balanced territory.

Having a blind on every shatter is also a root cause of their invulnerability. Either nerf this, nerf the distortion, nerf the dodge, or all 3.

Mirage Cloak isn’t being changed to a block, so let’s take that off the board right away.

I agree, Mirage Cloak needs to lock out actions during it’s animation and then provide a 2 second window to activate an ambush skill. It needs to be a normal dodge that doesn’t apply counter pressure or allow freely protected heals/stomps/rez etc.

Here is a list of things that would STILL make Mirage Cloak better than base dodge:

• Can still dodge when Immobilized.
• Can still dodge when CCed.
• Still has 33% more evade frames (1 seconds vs 3/4).
• Still allows for better positioning/control.

Mirage will pretty much never be balanced unless this happens. The only other option is to so completely gut core skills and traits but then base Mesmer and Chrono will suffer.

That’s what I was thinking. Just nerf Mirage Cloak and be done with it. Or take it back to .75s duration with a longer Ambush window.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need for the childish knee jerk response either, its a logical solution to just about every single Mirage complaint. (Dodge while stunned, dodge while rez and so on)

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

For all you know, the next expansion might let you walk through walls on thief and only thief.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@BlackBeard.2873 said:Start with fixing all of the stupid target-drops that act as a free invuln when fighting someone with targeted skills. It is fun to fight PvP, it is not fun to fight PvUI. Just once, each person on the balance team should be forced to play something like a scepter ele, or rifle engineer, vs. a mirage and understand exactly how frustrating (and strong) these mechanics they add are.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:mesmers and thieves are so broken, any real nerf would be a complete redesign. So best to just ban those classes from pvp and wvw. Problem solved.

Thief? Really? I feel like thieves overall are on the back foot right now.

There is poor design, and then there is power level. Thief power-level is lower because other classes have poor design with tons of blocks/invulns/evades/etc. Thief design has ALWAYS been poor, as they have fundamentally been able to bypass too many core game mechanics that it causes a problem. For instance, the the number of instant ports just destroys the idea of good positioning with the exception of learning stupid hacks like spots you can abuse where a thief can't port. This is bad design. The old ability to spam attacks in stealth and not be punished (remember when at the start of the game there was no ways to apply reveal, or properly punish poor backstab attempts because they could just keep on spamming, forcing you to blow dodges/CD's with no benefit). The number of skills that evade while doing damage (especially daggerstorm now). Even the general design of stealth (no real drawbacks, like slowing you, or failing if you walk in front of someone, or having some kind of semi-transparency, etc.) is really poor design that is hard for players to learn to play against, leads to frustration, and is anti-fun for either the thief or his opponent. Anet really did a disservice by balancing the class around having these stupidly OP mechanics, as it made any version of the class that doesn't maximize their abuse impossible to design. It has also lead to the long-term hate of the class that most players have, while creating the perfect class for the type of toxic player who thinks he is superior for landing 1 hit KO's with no tell (this isn't all thieves by a long shot).

This all should be fixed, but it SHOULD have been fixed near the start of the game and it never was, so I don't think it ever will. Just CHOO CHOO down the power-creep express where EVERY class is loaded up with mechanics that ignore important game aspects and lack counterplay.

Agree with everything.I've been saying the same. Both shadowsteps and stealth bypass the whole good position talk. What is sad is that ANet was warned, by everyone, about this in kitten Factions when Assassin was released, not only they ignored it they amplified their errors by a metricton.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

Having read through every comment, we're all over the place with solutions to the "condi mirage problem". If we were to take them as a whole, the spec would literally be deleted (some make no secret that is what they actually want).

On the one hand you have those who say the only problem is output:

@"Daishi.6027" said:Condi mirage has to much output and that is the problem.

Mirage's defensive options are on par with the rest of the cast. Different sure, but much like how warrior has a sturdy body, ele can keep rotation and safely heal up, DD having access to more dodge than anything in game, and DE's endless stealth; mirage has it's own quirks....Please dispel the notion of the defensive options being the issue, I have had 0 issue landing hits (and by extension killing) mirages on soul beast, pick your flavor of thief, guard, and somewhat holo (I'm pretty bad at holo tbh but I can still go 40/60 with high plat and legend), and can get the cap then contest them on point without problems on weaver.

Yes you need to actively play around their options but that is the case for anything vs anyone who knows what they are doing.

Tip: Sometimes combat comes down to reads and anticipation, this is especially true when fighting mesmers, thieves, and any opponent who makes good use of block or counter skills. I suggest everyone develop a good Seme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seme_(martial_arts) . This will help you improve in almost any action based PvP game.

On the other, you have the frequent complaints that mirage is an untouchable, unkillable, ez-mode, brain dead, god-spec, rife with too much evade, invuln, stealth, detarget, mobility, etc. (See any mesmer complaint thread as well as many posts here.)

I think targeted changes should be applied to both offense and defense:

Offense:

• Minimize direct damage on axe, torch, scepter, and staff so condi builds really only output condi.
• Shave condi application so condi damage is ramped rather than burst. Possibly add an ICD on Ambush attacks, but in exchange leave Mirage Cloak alone, except as stated below. Ideally, cut back the excessive cleanse and resistance in the game to compensate, which might even enable additional viable condi specs.
• Maybe this is out there and has issues, but: Rework clones so they don't pile conditions via auto-attacks, but instead apply a couple stacks to opponents who kill them (to punish them for falling for the fake and encourage developing the most important skill for fighting mesmers: identifying the real mesmer--which isn't as difficult as people think.) Outside of shatters and ambushes, clones do almost no damage and truly exist to facilitate the mesmer's deceptive play style. So no more complaining about clone spam.

Defense: With the reductions to offense, defensive abilities are more justified to enable that ramped condi application and allow "mirages to excel in longer combat engagements" per Anet's goal. Still, many complain about, and many mirage mains agree, that dodging while CC'd should go. It's not unreasonable for mirages to be forced to spend a stun break here like others.

Generally, I think condi mirage should retain most of its defensive trickery in keeping with its theme. It should duel by craftily outplaying opponents, wearing them down with DOT (particularly the self-inflicted kind from torment and confusion for thematic reasons), and fill less of a burst DPS role. Kind of like a tankier but less damaging thief that hides among what opponents see rather than what they don't. Would that satisfy (most) everyone?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution.

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only?

EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@nativity.3057 said:i am still, and will continue to be tilted over the fact that Mirages can dodge while stunned.

yep. my main beef too. shouldn't work on stun, pull, launch, push without EM

but they have had over a year to change it, so I am not expecting much.

Mirage cloak should be cosmetic then revert EM, Mirage will still maintain a second mechanic being Ambush skills.

That's a cool idea. Photon forge should be cosmetic, you get that fancy transformation but no photon forge skills.Merge with the pet should be cosmetic, your pet disappears but do nothing.Finally a solution to all balance problems.

Mesmer was the only spec to recieve 2 secondary mechanics with PoF, people had EM nerfed over Mirage Cloak..

No need to knee jerk, its a logical solution.

Mirage cloak works outside the combat parameters of every other class, to defend that means to encourage more of it in the next expansion.

Really? So DE received two mechanics by allowing them to stealth on dodge and mark, which one shall we will make cosmetic only?

EM was op before released, lots of mesmers warned ANet of this.

Dodge on stealth is because of the Silent Scope trait rework, it used to be on rifle kneel and only applicable when traited...

Another knee jerk reaction...

Yea, everyone complained about EM because you can dodge while stunned, of those complaints only experienced players or mirage players knew the issue was mirage cloak hence my first comment mentioning to revert EM.

I personally see no difference between traiting to stun break on dodge or stealth on dodge, its also the same as traiting to Temp and being given 4 stun breaks on overloads.

TLDR: Mirage Cloak is and forever will be a fundamentally flawed design at its core.Defending this opens the door to more specs breaking the combat parameters that every other class is refined too.

[apharma.3741]

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:Having read through every comment, we're all over the place with solutions to the "condi mirage problem". If we were to take them as a whole, the spec would literally be deleted (some make no secret that is what they actually want).

On the one hand you have those who say the only problem is output:

@"Daishi.6027" said:Condi mirage has to much output and that is the problem.

Mirage's defensive options are on par with the rest of the cast. Different sure, but much like how warrior has a sturdy body, ele can keep rotation and safely heal up, DD having access to more dodge than anything in game, and DE's endless stealth; mirage has it's own quirks....Please dispel the notion of the defensive options being the issue, I have had 0 issue landing hits (and by extension killing) mirages on soul beast, pick your flavor of thief, guard, and somewhat holo (I'm pretty bad at holo tbh but I can still go 40/60 with high plat and legend), and can get the cap then contest them on point without problems on weaver.

Yes you need to actively play around their options but that is the case for anything vs anyone who knows what they are doing.

Tip: Sometimes combat comes down to reads and anticipation, this is especially true when fighting mesmers, thieves, and any opponent who makes good use of block or counter skills. I suggest everyone develop a good Seme

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seme_(martial_arts

) . This will help you improve in almost any action based PvP game.

On the other, you have the frequent complaints that mirage is an untouchable, unkillable, ez-mode, brain dead, god-spec, rife with too much evade, invuln, stealth, detarget, mobility, etc. (See any mesmer complaint thread as well as many posts here.)

I think targeted changes should be applied to both offense and defense:

Offense:

• Minimize direct damage on axe, torch, scepter, and staff so condi builds really only output condi.
• Shave condi application so condi damage is ramped rather than burst. Possibly add an ICD on Ambush attacks, but in exchange leave Mirage Cloak alone, except as stated below. Ideally, cut back the excessive cleanse and resistance in the game to compensate, which might even enable additional viable condi specs.
• Maybe this is out there and has issues, but: Rework clones so they don't pile conditions via auto-attacks, but instead apply a couple stacks to opponents who kill them (to punish them for falling for the fake and encourage developing the most important skill for fighting mesmers: identifying the real mesmer--which isn't as difficult as people think.) Outside of shatters and ambushes, clones do almost no damage and truly exist to facilitate the mesmer's deceptive play style. So no more complaining about clone spam.

Defense:

With the reductions to offense, defensive abilities are more justified to enable that ramped condi application and allow "mirages to excel in longer combat engagements" per Anet's goal. Still, many complain about, and many mirage mains agree, that dodging while CC'd should go. It's not unreasonable for mirages to be forced to spend a stun break here like others.

Generally, I think condi mirage should retain most of its defensive trickery in keeping with its theme. It should duel by craftily outplaying opponents, wearing them down with DOT (particularly the self-inflicted kind from torment and confusion for thematic reasons), and fill less of a burst DPS role. Kind of like a tankier but less damaging thief that hides among what opponents see rather than what they don't. Would that satisfy (most) everyone?

Axe, sure, scepter, sure, staff? Not so sure, it already does pathetic direct damage and is a defensive weapon set mostly so I'm not sure you can say this without literally going through every class and deleting a load of damage off their defensive weapon sets also. By the way the staff phantasms do less damage than an auto attack, let that sink in please. Torch the phantasm already does bad direct damage, prestige isn't spectacular at 1.0 mod on a 30s CD with a 3s telegraph, seems a bit redundant given it's been like this for years with 0 problems.

Shave condi output, yep, most mesmer players have been saying this for a long time now. It's mostly Axe/scepter ambush as well as the weapon skills having really silly low CDs, though they're not too out of line when you consider cool downs of most PoF/HoT skills are just as low. A shave in the staff ambush might be needed but I'd address axe/scepter first then see how it plays out.

YOU DO NOT WANT TO BRING BACK CLONE DEATH TRAITS!!! - seriously no, please no. We had this and it was horrible.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Debilitating_Dissipationhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Combatantshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crippling_Dissipation

Another thing that no-one mentions is how oppressive the two conditions of torment and confusion are where you can't move and kite if you get hit with torment and can't cleanse it if they follow up with confusion without taking a big hit. The torment should be cut back if not replaced almost entirely in mirage traits/skills for something a bit more generic and then you'd find most of the complaints die down a bit. You'll still have scrubs complaining but that's because they don't care to learn to fight the class.

Remove dodge while stunned, all for it. Can we revert the change to critical infusion please so non mirage builds aren't kept gimped?

[Mathias.9657]

Nope mes will remain cancer so pvp is antifun its just the way they want it

[Milan.9035]

bring mirage to renegade levels. then when people say mirage is not viable tell them that not ever spec needs to be pvp viable.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@"apharma.3741" said:YOU DO NOT WANT TO BRING BACK CLONE DEATH TRAITS!!! - seriously no, please no. We had this and it was horrible.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Debilitating_Dissipationhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Combatantshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crippling_Dissipation

I can imagine why those were problematic but my idea is more modest. Effects would only be applied to the player who killed the clone, so not AOE. And only a couple stacks of something. In exchange for clones "firing blanks" as their auto attacks. The idea is to make clone play--for both the mesmer and its opponents--more deliberate. Also to cut back on condi spam.

Anyhow it was just an admittedly rough idea. Thanks for the feedback.

[tinyreborn.1938]

@Milan.9035 said:bring mirage to renegade levels. then when people say mirage is not viable tell them that not ever spec needs to be pvp viable.

M A S E got legend with renegade that YOU and MOST people wouldnt pull off even with mirage .

[ErazorZ.5209]

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:Having read through every comment, we're all over the place with solutions to the "condi mirage problem". If we were to take them as a whole, the spec would literally be deleted (some make no secret that is what they actually want).

On the one hand you have those who say the only problem is output:

@"Daishi.6027" said:Condi mirage has to much output and that is the problem.

Mirage's defensive options are on par with the rest of the cast. Different sure, but much like how warrior has a sturdy body, ele can keep rotation and safely heal up, DD having access to more dodge than anything in game, and DE's endless stealth; mirage has it's own quirks....Please dispel the notion of the defensive options being the issue, I have had 0 issue landing hits (and by extension killing) mirages on soul beast, pick your flavor of thief, guard, and somewhat holo (I'm pretty bad at holo tbh but I can still go 40/60 with high plat and legend), and can get the cap then contest them on point without problems on weaver.

Yes you need to actively play around their options but that is the case for anything vs anyone who knows what they are doing.

Tip: Sometimes combat comes down to reads and anticipation, this is especially true when fighting mesmers, thieves, and any opponent who makes good use of block or counter skills. I suggest everyone develop a good Seme

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seme_(martial_arts

) . This will help you improve in almost any action based PvP game.

On the other, you have the frequent complaints that mirage is an untouchable, unkillable, ez-mode, brain dead, god-spec, rife with too much evade, invuln, stealth, detarget, mobility, etc. (See any mesmer complaint thread as well as many posts here.)

I think targeted changes should be applied to both offense and defense:

Offense:

• Minimize direct damage on axe, torch, scepter, and staff so condi builds really only output condi.
• Shave condi application so condi damage is ramped rather than burst. Possibly add an ICD on Ambush attacks, but in exchange leave Mirage Cloak alone, except as stated below. Ideally, cut back the excessive cleanse and resistance in the game to compensate, which might even enable additional viable condi specs.
• Maybe this is out there and has issues, but: Rework clones so they don't pile conditions via auto-attacks, but instead apply a couple stacks to opponents who kill them (to punish them for falling for the fake and encourage developing the most important skill for fighting mesmers: identifying the real mesmer--which isn't as difficult as people think.) Outside of shatters and ambushes, clones do almost no damage and truly exist to facilitate the mesmer's deceptive play style. So no more complaining about clone spam.

Defense:

With the reductions to offense, defensive abilities are more justified to enable that ramped condi application and allow "mirages to excel in longer combat engagements" per Anet's goal. Still, many complain about, and many mirage mains agree, that dodging while CC'd should go. It's not unreasonable for mirages to be forced to spend a stun break here like others.

Generally, I think condi mirage should retain most of its defensive trickery in keeping with its theme. It should duel by craftily outplaying opponents, wearing them down with DOT (particularly the self-inflicted kind from torment and confusion for thematic reasons), and fill less of a burst DPS role. Kind of like a tankier but less damaging thief that hides among what opponents see rather than what they don't. Would that satisfy (most) everyone?

First you state targeted changes should be applied to both offense and defense, and then literally a few sentences later you are saying defenses are fine and doesnt need to be changed cuz offensives are lower? Wat.

You think condi mirage should retain most of its defensive trickery? LOL The entire problem with mirage is that it has permanent uptime of defenses while basically spamming there defensives when the condi has been put on. Its just a waiting game for mesmer at this point. Use condis and then just use your defensives, teleport stealth and watch ppl die while your stealthed, due to conditions.

This should have never been a build to begin with. Its too newb friendly, unfun to play against, and frankly, unfun to play with if you actually want to progress in getting better with mesmer. This build allows people to never get better, because all you need to know is how your defenses work.