Unavailable skins for Belgians

[derd.6413]

@mercury ranique.2170 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:There are lootboxes and lootboxes, they come in various shapes and sizes and disguises. Much of the discussion is about the category lootboxes (thinking and assuming all lootboxes are bad). But not all are bad. A better angle would be to define gambling, now there are two viewpoints.1: Gambling according to the law, this differs per country (and sometimes per state). So it is not easy to get a solid definition out of it. In my country, it would be described as a situation where you gamble with something that holds a real value, with a change of recieving something that holds a higher or lower value, based on luck. If you look at lootboxes, the GW2 lootboxes are ok. Non of the items inside hold any real value, as they are untradable. In other games, it is different as they are tradable for a real value.2: Gambling from a moral point of view. Let's take the example of the Kinder-egg. Although the items inside do not hold a real value, I do see that they are designed to hold personal value. I can buy a package of three eggs, with e.g. smurfs advertised on them. One of the three eggs actually contains a smurf and it is the smurf, my 7 year old is after. So he wants to open as many as needed to obtain the smurf. The same goes for lootboxes in GW2. They do not hold a real solid value, but they might hold a personal value for the person opening them. This can be considered wrong, but I also am teaching my kid that you should only open one egg at a time, as you still need to eat all the chocolate and get hell if you don't eat your supper.

So it is on this. Moral says that lootboxes can have a negative effect, but also says that people should be able to constrict themselfs from buying more then they can afford. It is in essence a debate about wether or not people should have imposed morals where everyone is protected from lootboxes, or it is someones personal moral to decide how many they open. An important element here is also the social pressure. I am personal for a more liberal system where people can have their personal moral without having an imposed one forced upon them. But I also see the delicacy of the different sides.

there's one issue with that assessment which is that children also buy microtransactions (and thus lootboxes) which does complicate the matter

True, but, children can buy a lot of things that is unhealthy for them. In many countries, banks deny children to buy things online without consent of their parents (as you need to have their permission to actually use a digital payment method). But you are correct, and it is an element of the moral involved.

it's less about weather it's healthy but rather if it's exploitative.

Not really. An exploit in itself is not a bad thing . It is the effect it has. There is someone who is happy with an exploit, and someone who suffers from it. The amount of suffering it causes is important when making a moral judgement, so health (also mental health) is important, not just wether or not it is exploitative.

People react here from a moral ground that needs to be defended. It is very human to have a moral opinion without knowing every detail in and out (it just feels wrong or right), but when debating such a moral and discussing who's moral is better (if that is actually a thing), it often circulates around these details. I'm not saying another persons moral is better or lesser then mine, but try to stick to what is really the subject instead of revolving around semantics.

this isn't about morals tho. it's about whether video game companies where selling "gambling products" to children and if said products should fall under gambling regulations.

And as explained it is all about morals. The definition of gambling differs per country and state, the laws wether or not that is legal or illegal differ per country and state, and those laws and definitions are based on the morals of those elected to write those laws (and should reflect that of the citizens).

I think it would be much wiser to discuss the morals behind it, cause local laws judging an international community is a bad thing to start with.

it's pointless to argue morals because morals are subjective and discussions about subjective things lead nowhere.

I agree and dissagree. You are correct about morals being subjective, but morals also decide what is good or bad. For example, GW2 has many rules about exploiting, RMT-gold selling, faul language, naming policies, etc.

no, those are banned because they can objectively damage the game (either they damage the economy, alienate customers or even could get them in legal trouble ). none of these are because of morality.

[Ashen.2907]

@Yannir.4132 said:Gambling usually takes into account things like value of what you can win. Kinder eggs aren't considered gambling because they don't hold anything valuable.

If people are spending real money to get those prizes then, by definition, they have value...just lime collectible card booster packages, lootboxes, etc.

[Lottie.5370]

I wish they'd do this for my country too, I have a weird addiction to opening chests. xD

[Yannir.4132]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:Gambling usually takes into account things like value of what you can win. Kinder eggs aren't considered gambling because they don't hold anything valuable.

If people are spending real money to get those prizes then, by definition, they have value...just lime collectible card booster packages, lootboxes, etc.

If you buy a Kinder egg for 1, the value of what you find inside is 1, there's no possibility of gaining a 10 value from it at the moment of purchase. Ergo, not gambling. But the point of a Kinder egg is not the prize(practically, based on possible value, there is none) but the feeling of surprise of what you'll find inside. It's different from things you mentioned. And it was a pretty specific note I commented on.

[Tiny Doom.4380]

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:Gambling usually takes into account things like value of what you can win. Kinder eggs aren't considered gambling because they don't hold anything valuable.

If people are spending real money to get those prizes then, by definition, they have value...just lime collectible card booster packages, lootboxes, etc.

If you buy a Kinder egg for 1, the value of what you find inside is 1, there's no possibility of gaining a 10 value from it at the moment of purchase. Ergo, not gambling. But the point of a Kinder egg is not the prize(practically, based on possible value, there is none) but the feeling of surprise of what you'll find inside. It's different from things you mentioned. And it was a pretty specific note I commented on.

I don't know the current secondary market value of Kinder Surprise toys but a quick google search confirms a secondary market exists, as you'd expect. Also, apparently Kinder Surprise eggs are illegal in the USA. https://www.ecommercebytes.com/2018/04/14/collectors-corner-kinder-eggs/

That's mostly a collectables market, though, so arguably it wouldn't relate to the value of the toys at time of sale. In collectable cards, however, it definitely does, which is why workers at stores that carry them have been known to open the packs rather than selling them so they can take out the valuable cards to re-sell.

The anomaly is that these items are not being treated as gambling, not that Lockboxes in online games are. Give it time.

[Razi.6031]

And if anyone absurdly says it's not gambling coz you "technically" always get something from lootboxes, by that logic all a casino needs to do is give you 10c on your way out and avoid gambling taxes. After all you are "TECHNICALLY" getting something too

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Odd, they sell Kinder Eggs in my local (US) supermarket.

[derd.6413]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Odd, they sell Kinder Eggs in my local (US) supermarket.

kinder eggs or kinder joy?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Oh, is there a difference? Egg with chocolate and prize.

My bad, if there is some fundamental difference.

Edit: Same company/same product - different name; the toy is just packaged differently for FDA rules on choking hazards.

[derd.6413]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Oh, is there a difference? Egg with chocolate and prize.

My bad, if there is some fundamental difference.

Edit: Same company/same product - different name; the toy is just packaged differently for FDA rules on choking hazards.

not really, they're 2 distinct products. (kinder joy has existed long before it came to the US) there's plenty of products under the kinder line (23 if i'm not mistaken)

also i get the distinct feeling that this thread got horribly derailed

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Well, in context of comparing Kinder products (Joy or egg) to gambling, I think they are about the same.Some claim they are purchased only for the chocolate; others for the prize.

Probably, the important fact is Kinder egg is not banned due to anything to do with gambling/prizes/value, but by the FDA due to health (choking) hazards.

[derd.6413]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Well, in context of comparing Kinder products (Joy or egg) to gambling, I think they are about the same.Some claim they are purchased only for the chocolate; others for the prize.

Probably, the important fact is Kinder egg is not banned due to anything to do with gambling/prizes/value, but by the FDA due to health (choking) hazards.

they're not, you can have a product with a random element to it without it becoming gambling

[Razi.6031]

The kinder joy would become gambling if say, kinder decided to put a "golden ticket" inside which would win you money. Essentially a lottery, which is gambling. Other than that, it's just a chocolate with an added pleasant random surprise

[Hynax.9536]

Ignoring all this discussion i don't wanna read and as it looks no one suggested this...Can't you ask for a good friend of yours in game/guild from a different country to buy keys as gift for you? You just give the gold, they convert it to gems and send the keys to you. Isn't it possible?

[Ashen.2907]

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:Gambling usually takes into account things like value of what you can win. Kinder eggs aren't considered gambling because they don't hold anything valuable.

If people are spending real money to get those prizes then, by definition, they have value...just lime collectible card booster packages, lootboxes, etc.

If you buy a Kinder egg for 1, the value of what you find inside is 1, there's no possibility of gaining a 10 value from it at the moment of purchase. Ergo, not gambling. But the point of a Kinder egg is not the prize(practically, based on possible value, there is none) but the feeling of surprise of what you'll find inside. It's different from things you mentioned. And it was a pretty specific note I commented on.

Value of the content of random packages such as card boosters, kinder prizes, and loot boxes is decided by the receiver. Black lion chest contents have zero value to me, so, since there is zero chance to get anything of value they are not gambling, right?

As to the point of the kinder egg...after seeing people buy them (and things like TY surprise boxes) in bulk trying to get the pieces that they are missing from their collection, I am going to have to disagree.

[Smallisbig.4923]

@Hynax.9536 said:Ignoring all this discussion i don't wanna read and as it looks no one suggested this...Can't you ask for a good friend of yours in game/guild from a different country to buy keys as gift for you? You just give the gold, they convert it to gems and send the keys to you. Isn't it possible?

Yep, that would be a solution... if I had the gold :p And I feel like it's not worth/ a loss buying gems with irl money and then converting it to gold. I'll try to buy some keys with a vpn someday soon, tho, to see if it works, like it was suggested earlier in the thread

[Hynax.9536]

@Smallisbig.4923 said:Yep, that would be a solution... if I had the gold :p And I feel like it's not worth/ a loss buying gems with irl money and then converting it to gold. I'll try to buy some keys with a vpn someday soon, tho, to see if it works, like it was suggested earlier in the thread

I suggested this believing you had some ingame gold from farming and stuff (just like me, cus i can't see myself buying gems with irl money anytime soon :p ), it surely is not worth buy gems to convert to gold and then re-convert to gems in another account. Anyway good luck with the VPN thing. ;)

[Sapphire Artemis.3062]

If it helps, I think there is a work around where you can be gifted keys. Gifting takes into account the buyer's location, not the recipient. It's not much to work with but if you have friends outside of Belgium, and you do really want those skins, might be something to look into.

[Trise.2865]

Since the discussion has turned to gambling and randomized reward systems, there is another angle on them not being considered: the secondary market. Randomized prize products, like card packs, Kinder eggs, cereal boxes, "blind pull" figurines, etc., are physical items that have inherent value (some have extremely low to no real value, but value nonetheless). These items have no restrictions on trading, sale, collectors' market transactions, etc., because they are wholly owned by the purchaser. They cannot in any (legal) way be forcibly taken from you by the manufacturer.

Digital products, even meaningless, cosmetic ones, are none of those things. Digital products are not owned by the purchaser/consumer, but by the licence-holder. Digital products have no aftermarket value, because they cannot leave their primary market. Digital products are extremely restricted, and must be to prevent illicit and other undesirable transactions. Digital products can be removed by the "manufacturer" on a whim. They have no intrinsic value, just as any other ephemeral currency - a chip or marker or slot pull - and as such are subject to gambling regulation.

[Ashen.2907]

@"Trise.2865" said:Since the discussion has turned to gambling and randomized reward systems, there is another angle on them not being considered: the secondary market. Randomized prize products, like card packs, Kinder eggs, cereal boxes, "blind pull" figurines, etc., are physical items that have inherent value (some have extremely low to no real value, but value nonetheless). These items have no restrictions on trading, sale, collectors' market transactions, etc., because they are wholly owned by the purchaser. They cannot in any (legal) way be forcibly taken from you by the manufacturer.

Digital products, even meaningless, cosmetic ones, are none of those things. Digital products are not owned by the purchaser/consumer, but by the licence-holder. Digital products have no aftermarket value, because they cannot leave their primary market. Digital products are extremely restricted, and must be to prevent illicit and other undesirable transactions. Digital products can be removed by the "manufacturer" on a whim. They have no intrinsic value, just as any other ephemeral currency - a chip or marker or slot pull - and as such are subject to gambling regulation.

Interesting point. One might argue that if there is zero chance of receiving anything of value, as you point out, that the digital products are less of a gamble, or not a gamble at all, than the physical products you mention.

[Trise.2865]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@"Trise.2865" said:Since the discussion has turned to gambling and randomized reward systems, there is another angle on them not being considered: the secondary market. Randomized prize products, like card packs, Kinder eggs, cereal boxes, "blind pull" figurines, etc., are physical items that have inherent value (some have extremely low to no real value, but value nonetheless). These items have no restrictions on trading, sale, collectors' market transactions, etc., because they are wholly owned by the purchaser. They cannot in any (legal) way be forcibly taken from you by the manufacturer.

Digital products, even meaningless, cosmetic ones, are none of those things. Digital products are not owned by the purchaser/consumer, but by the licence-holder. Digital products have no aftermarket value, because they cannot leave their primary market. Digital products are extremely restricted, and must be to prevent illicit and other undesirable transactions. Digital products can be removed by the "manufacturer" on a whim. They have no intrinsic value, just as any other ephemeral currency - a chip or marker or slot pull - and as such are subject to gambling regulation.

Interesting point. One might argue that if there is zero chance of receiving anything of value, as you point out, that the digital products are less of a gamble, or not a gamble at all, than the physical products you mention.

Very true. But that directly contradicts the concept of selling said items for money. In doing so, they knowingly assign a monetary value to the object, and as a direct result lose the ability to claim it as ephemera; an object cannot both have value and no value at the same time. (to head off the counter-argument, the object then loses that monetary value as soon as it is no longer being sold, eg, in the buyer's possession). Then, theoretically, this would mean that all possible outcomes must have the same value, because they are equal in (lack of) risk. But that, in turn, is contradicted by the concepts of randomized rarity, where certain outcomes are (arbitrarily) assigned as more valuable by making them less likely to occur.

Of course, this particular thought line inevitably raises the discussion on whether or not these objects qualify as individual art works, which is a hazier position in terms of determining value vs gain/loss vs risk. They don't in this particular case, because these specific objects are pieces of a larger art work (you can't really claim that the blue paint in Van Gogh's Starry Night is a separate art object, can you?), but it's a worthy discussion anyway.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I think they only assign a monetary value to Gems, with which you can obtain just about everything within the game. If everything within the game, then, has a monetary value, any RNG could be considered gambling. Thus, I'm not sure that's the deciding factor.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

Has anyone tried a VPN to get around this.