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So to the people that say the playing field has been "evened", i have a question.

Anput.4620

By Anput.4620
in World vs. World

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AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

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@Anput.4620 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:Strange. I play scourge and i cant find the permaevade button, the 15k+ backstabs out of permastealth, or the 1800 attack range, or the permasustain on my character. Please fix.Classes are good at something. Others at zerging, others excel at roaming. However, if you have issues killing a scourge as a thief or ranger, buddy, I have news for you...

But mounts made those useless, so i heard the field has been evened yet those classes can't suddenly do well in zergs while every slow class can now avoid any fight at will for free. So if roaming is dead and unviable and Zerg is the only thing now then that makes those other classes very bad, yet i hear everyone say things are fair now?

I literally can't roam except if i pick ranger with full zerk with a longbow, then i can be just little under half as effective as before, but my other specs can't do anything. So how do i use my Thieves in the TRUE WVW PLAYSTYLE of spamming AoE vs mobs when i have no aoe :/

@Voltekka.2375 said:Strange. I play scourge and i cant find the permaevade button, the 15k+ backstabs out of permastealth, or the 1800 attack range, or the permasustain on my character. Please fix.Classes are good at something. Others at zerging, others excel at roaming. However, if you have issues killing a scourge as a thief or ranger, buddy, I have news for you...

Maybe not, but you do get most of the benefits of the daredevil elite spec with warclaw.

Your point that classes are good at different things is correct, but there's a lot of issues at the moment with new content granting skills that bleed into another profession's defined strengths with little drawback, making the other profession worth less overall as a result. Mobility and mounts is one example, new sneak gyro and shadow refuge would be another. Or, just granting too much in general, to the exclusion of everything else; PvE chrono comes to mind here.

If the thing you are good at has been gutted/made unplayable you might aswell be good at nothing.

I don't know what game you're playing, but I see daredevil, deadeye and even plenty of core thief builds everywhere I go when roaming. Daredevil especially is practically unkillable and uncatchable. If you're struggling, it isn't the class in this case. Grab a shortbow and l2p, bud.

That's the problem ... he's not adapting to the game. He's simply concluded mounts are bad and doesn't know a thing about how to interact with them in the game.

How does a warrior adapt to this change, or a sword weaver? Please elaborate your dismounting tactics here.

Maybe they can't ... and there isn't a problem with that. It's not a problem that every class doesn't have good access to every thing. That's why there are things called teams and people in them doing something called 'teamwork'. You should try it. It's amazing. It's how good players do things.

That is a problem because that means it is overpowered and unbalanced.

No, that's never been the case. There are lots of classes that can't do many things ... that doesn't mean they are underpowered or under balanced at all. The kind of thinking you exhibit doesn't make sense because at the end of the day, you have to make choices for ONE BUILD, so even if a class is good at something, you might not choose to do that thing. In short, you couldn't be more wrong about the abilities classes should have and how that translates into game balance.

Even if Class X was good at dismounting ... that doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that the person playing it will make a dismounting build. That's precisely the reason why every class DOESN'T need to have a way to adapt to mounts. If you want to dismount players, make good choices to do so if that's indeed such a huge thing for how you play the game.

What I really think here is that you don't want to work for dismounting players, because you simply don't like mounts. You're one of these players that thinks if we have enough 1000 page threads about it, Anet will nerf them. At least it's entertaining ... my advice is that you better get over yourself here because mounts aren't going anywhere.

There is literally no build capable of easilly dismounting people, longbow soulbeast is the only one that has a decent chance.

My condi daredevil. Get the doom proc ready on your bar, make sure P/D is equipped for the sigils, then use the maul skill. Applies 4 bleed and 3 poison from doom, dismounts which procs geomancy and doom a second time for a total of 7 bleed and 6 poison stacks, all from the mount maul skill and sigil procs.

With those stats, poison does 163 damage per second per stack, bleed does 111 damage per second per stack. So that's 978 poison damage per second plus 777 bleed damage per second for a total of 1755 condi damage per second, which will dismount a player with 10972 health in 6.25 seconds, so 7 seconds to allow for condi damage applying in intervals of once per second. The stacks last between 11 and 14 seconds, so simply pressing one button on my build forces them to dismount and cleanse, or be knocked off by the condis. It really doesn't get much easier than that, and literally every class can do it.

So let's say, you are roaming, taking a sentry in enemy territory, you see a mounted enemy in the distance, they see you and start to turn around, now tell me how you would engage that.

Everything you said there is wrong. Anet decides how the game works, not players. You don't know who likes the mount. What any PVP focused community of any game thinks is irrelevant to GW2. What is relevant is how Anet wants the game to work. False statements do not make a compelling argument for change.

I think he's basing all judgments after his friends left the game to play Apex as opposed to actually playing WvW. For example I can used biased data to show that only one of my guildies stopped playing as he hated mounts, and went to GW1 instead lol, but everyone else likes the mounts. My running theory was that his friends were looking for an excuse to quit gw2 anyway.

Aren't you a PvE player? You ment your PvE guild? The person in my WvW guild says he has met no one pro-mounts yet, nor in my roaming guild, where many people quit. I have tried the WvW, i could get 1 fight in an evening of playing my Engie, 1 fight with my Ele, 2 with my Thief and a few with my Soulbeast, the amount of times i dismounted someone there was maybe twice in total, where both where on Soulbeast too. That is hours of playtime to get a fight.

These friends of mine loved the game, they roamed almost every day, why would they need an excuse to quit?

That's funny. I roamed all day today and had tons of fights. Odd that you could go hours with barely any. I'm going to guess you're exaggerating to make a point, but color me unconvinced.

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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

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@Anput.4620 said:

These people weren't sick of the game, they played it everyday and had fun, i haven't seen a roamer that focuses on fights that likes the mount yet.

Then that's their problem, WvW isn't just about fights, as much as you want it to be. WvW is lots of things, PvP... with PvE elements, tactical scouting. Small scale fights might be fun for you but in the grand scheme of WvW, pretty irrelevent.

No, but you are trying to say all roamers hate mounts and I told you you were wrong

I said fight focused roamers. I am not talking about the core rangers spamming 1 vs a camp.

Can you name 1 good open world PvP game with a mechanic like this? For example, the only BR game i know with mounts instadismounts you when hit, the mount has zero evades and a cast time.

I don't think most open world PvP games even have mounts, agressing is also always rewarded.

WvW is a sandbox mode, winning gives nothing. Restricting what people can and can't do is just bad. Why does it seem like the pro mount people just want to player vs door? The GvG blob people also don't use mounts in their fights.

It's not a sandbox mode, as you can't do anything you want. This isn't GTA online. Also, fight focused roamers, no wonder you aren't having fun.... if that's all you do then what's the point of WvW for you, could just play PvP (since while objective based has TONS of fights)

Battle Royale games and WvW are two different genres, using one as an example over the other doesn't help your case.

It is a sandbox mode, you
can
do whatever you want, there is no reward for winning either, i don't like PvP because i play solo, i also don't like objective-based gameplay when playing solo. I play MOBA's for that.

@"coro.3176" said:I propose a challenge to anyone who thinks dismounts are in a good state right now:
  • we both start mounted outside a southern tower in one of the borderlands
  • we both start at the same spot, within 100 range of each other.
  • If I can make it to the other southern tower, I win. If you manage to dismount me and catch up, you win.
  • use any class except soulbeast

sound good?

*I say "dismount and catch up" because I don't think it counts if you dismount with condi, but the other player is 5000 units away from you by the time they actually are dismounted. Then they just cleanse to break combat and remount.

We have to be careful here. If Anet's intention is exactly what has been delivered, then there isn't anything 'good' or 'bad' state. It's what is intended. If it's not exact, we know Anet will change it with hopes it's closer to what they intended. What we think as players is 'good' or 'bad' is completely irrelevant, because we don't know the intentions, or if we do, they are so vague and open to interpretation in most cases.

For all we know, in that scenario, Anet is sitting there and saying "Yes, exactly, that's what we want mounts to do for players" and it's not an unreasonable thing they would think that, given the way the mount is designed and what is necessary for players to interact with it.

Completely speculation here but ... I don't think Anet wants people to have 1 vs. 1 or 1 vs X encounters in transit in WvW. I can only guess it's because it's related to the spirit or theme of what WvW is about.

If what is intended is kitten design from a open world PvP game viewpoint then it is still kitten even though intended?

Spirit or theme? WvW is literally a sanbox mode where winning doesn't get you jack, heck, it used to give nothing and only cost a long time ago.

Why would they not want that? Any MMO open world PvP mode has it, also, there is a reason there are smaller objectives to take too, i am sure Anet didn't intend camps to be taken by 40 people. You can also have both playstyles be viable, like before.

I am sure the spirit of WvW is player versus player combat, no doubt about that.

Again, you are imposing your own ideas of what WvW should be, not taking the observer seat and seeing what Anet is making it. Why would Anet not want that? Like I said, I've guessed why I think they don't want that. Ultimately, it has something to do with business and making the game mode more appealing to more people at the expense of the few.

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Anput.4620

Anput.4620

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@Karnasis.6892 said:

Well, it depends if they turn towards me or away from me for a start. If they run away and they're already at distance, they're likely not worth bothering with and never were even before mounts were implemented. This is why I tend to fight over objectives, as more people will come if you're attacking or defending something, and the mounts thing is a non issue. Assuming they're running at me, what I do depends on if I can kill the sentry before they get to me or not.

Usually I'm on P/D for sentries as it uses the least cooldowns to kill them, this would mean weapon swap is off cooldown while I'm fighting. If I kill the sentry before they get to me I'll place two needle traps on to of each other for stealth (trapper runes ftw), swap to shortbow, sneak attack for immob (mount is immune to CC, but the duration stacks for when they're dismounted) and get ready to dodge their maul. Since the maul skill isn't a dodge, the traps force a dismount, between the traps and the sneak attack I've applied 12.5 seconds of immob which is definitely less time than it takes me to dismount them. So I spam choking gas while they're knocked down and immobilised and laugh maniacally as they get daze locked. If they dismount at range, I stealth with shadow trap, swap to shortbow, sneak attack for immob, spam choking gas, and laugh maniacally as they get daze locked. If either of these don't work, I have a second spike from stealing into weapon swap to P/D for geomancy and doom procs, or I can use my now superior mobility to escape. Also while laughing maniacally, as what would be the fun if I didn't.

I've tried to convince him about fighting over objectives in another thread... he didn't bite.

Solid response though :)

When i tried a holo just ran in circles on the camp until his 2 buddies came to gank me.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:Strange. I play scourge and i cant find the permaevade button, the 15k+ backstabs out of permastealth, or the 1800 attack range, or the permasustain on my character. Please fix.Classes are good at something. Others at zerging, others excel at roaming. However, if you have issues killing a scourge as a thief or ranger, buddy, I have news for you...

But mounts made those useless, so i heard the field has been evened yet those classes can't suddenly do well in zergs while every slow class can now avoid any fight at will for free. So if roaming is dead and unviable and Zerg is the only thing now then that makes those other classes very bad, yet i hear everyone say things are fair now?

I literally can't roam except if i pick ranger with full zerk with a longbow, then i can be just little under half as effective as before, but my other specs can't do anything. So how do i use my Thieves in the TRUE WVW PLAYSTYLE of spamming AoE vs mobs when i have no aoe :/

@Voltekka.2375 said:Strange. I play scourge and i cant find the permaevade button, the 15k+ backstabs out of permastealth, or the 1800 attack range, or the permasustain on my character. Please fix.Classes are good at something. Others at zerging, others excel at roaming. However, if you have issues killing a scourge as a thief or ranger, buddy, I have news for you...

Maybe not, but you do get most of the benefits of the daredevil elite spec with warclaw.

Your point that classes are good at different things is correct, but there's a lot of issues at the moment with new content granting skills that bleed into another profession's defined strengths with little drawback, making the other profession worth less overall as a result. Mobility and mounts is one example, new sneak gyro and shadow refuge would be another. Or, just granting too much in general, to the exclusion of everything else; PvE chrono comes to mind here.

If the thing you are good at has been gutted/made unplayable you might aswell be good at nothing.

I don't know what game you're playing, but I see daredevil, deadeye and even plenty of core thief builds everywhere I go when roaming. Daredevil especially is practically unkillable and uncatchable. If you're struggling, it isn't the class in this case. Grab a shortbow and l2p, bud.

That's the problem ... he's not adapting to the game. He's simply concluded mounts are bad and doesn't know a thing about how to interact with them in the game.

How does a warrior adapt to this change, or a sword weaver? Please elaborate your dismounting tactics here.

Maybe they can't ... and there isn't a problem with that. It's not a problem that every class doesn't have good access to every thing. That's why there are things called teams and people in them doing something called 'teamwork'. You should try it. It's amazing. It's how good players do things.

That is a problem because that means it is overpowered and unbalanced.

No, that's never been the case. There are lots of classes that can't do many things ... that doesn't mean they are underpowered or under balanced at all. The kind of thinking you exhibit doesn't make sense because at the end of the day, you have to make choices for ONE BUILD, so even if a class is good at something, you might not choose to do that thing. In short, you couldn't be more wrong about the abilities classes should have and how that translates into game balance.

Even if Class X was good at dismounting ... that doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that the person playing it will make a dismounting build. That's precisely the reason why every class DOESN'T need to have a way to adapt to mounts. If you want to dismount players, make good choices to do so if that's indeed such a huge thing for how you play the game.

What I really think here is that you don't want to work for dismounting players, because you simply don't like mounts. You're one of these players that thinks if we have enough 1000 page threads about it, Anet will nerf them. At least it's entertaining ... my advice is that you better get over yourself here because mounts aren't going anywhere.

There is literally no build capable of easilly dismounting people, longbow soulbeast is the only one that has a decent chance.

My condi daredevil. Get the doom proc ready on your bar, make sure P/D is equipped for the sigils, then use the maul skill. Applies 4 bleed and 3 poison from doom, dismounts which procs geomancy and doom a second time for a total of 7 bleed and 6 poison stacks, all from the mount maul skill and sigil procs.

With those stats, poison does 163 damage per second per stack, bleed does 111 damage per second per stack. So that's 978 poison damage per second plus 777 bleed damage per second for a total of 1755 condi damage per second, which will dismount a player with 10972 health in 6.25 seconds, so 7 seconds to allow for condi damage applying in intervals of once per second. The stacks last between 11 and 14 seconds, so simply pressing one button on my build forces them to dismount and cleanse, or be knocked off by the condis. It really doesn't get much easier than that, and literally every class can do it.

So let's say, you are roaming, taking a sentry in enemy territory, you see a mounted enemy in the distance, they see you and start to turn around, now tell me how you would engage that.

I wouldn't because I'm not making builds to do that kind of thing. There are many builds that do many things in WvW, and you have to choose which ones you want to use. Again, if you want to make a build to engage mounted players in the scenario you describe, you can. Many people have told you how in the thread.

Everything you said there is wrong. Anet decides how the game works, not players. You don't know who likes the mount. What any PVP focused community of any game thinks is irrelevant to GW2. What is relevant is how Anet wants the game to work. False statements do not make a compelling argument for change.

I think he's basing all judgments after his friends left the game to play Apex as opposed to actually playing WvW. For example I can used biased data to show that only one of my guildies stopped playing as he hated mounts, and went to GW1 instead lol, but everyone else likes the mounts. My running theory was that his friends were looking for an excuse to quit gw2 anyway.

Aren't you a PvE player? You ment your PvE guild? The person in my WvW guild says he has met no one pro-mounts yet, nor in my roaming guild, where many people quit. I have tried the WvW, i could get 1 fight in an evening of playing my Engie, 1 fight with my Ele, 2 with my Thief and a few with my Soulbeast, the amount of times i dismounted someone there was maybe twice in total, where both where on Soulbeast too. That is hours of playtime to get a fight.

These friends of mine loved the game, they roamed almost every day, why would they need an excuse to quit?

Sounds to me like they liked roaming more than they loved the game, otherwise they wouldn't have quit. I think the core problem here is that just because you could do a thing in WvW doesn't mean that's what Anet intended players to do in WvW. I'm impressed by how hard people push to maintain this 'roaming PVP' mentality in WvW ... when they can do it in PvP pretty much on demand in an endless stream.

But it's not even that ... what I really think of you and your criticism ... UMADBRO because no more easy stealth kills. Just a hunch:

I am tired by this PvE PPT Ktrain PvD mentality. Some people play the game for one aspect, this is like telling raiders to do PvP if raids ever got closed.

Anet didn't intend shit, as the mode has been like this for six years, they are just going for quantity over quality right now to milk mount skin money.

What is wrong with Thieves and stealth? I can name more reasons why Necros are currently broken in WvW than how you can say Thieves are broken for sure.

@Kovu.7560 said:

@"coro.3176" said:I propose a challenge to anyone who thinks dismounts are in a good state right now:
  • we both start mounted outside a southern tower in one of the borderlands
  • we both start at the same spot, within 100 range of each other.
  • If I can make it to the other southern tower, I win. If you manage to dismount me and catch up, you win.
  • use any class except soulbeast

sound good?

*I say "dismount and catch up" because I don't think it counts if you dismount with condi, but the other player is 5000 units away from you by the time they actually are dismounted. Then they just cleanse to break combat and remount.

-hops on thief or teleport rev-Sure.

And, I mean, what's wrong with using condis to dismount? You can mount up and catch up fairly quickly whilst they're stunned from the demount and breaking combat.

~ Kovu

So let's say you are swimming across the river in ascension bay to go into enemy territory to roam, you go and move to the sentry as soon as you are out of the water, another player sees you, they are capping the sentry, as soon as they see you they mount up and bolt, give me your sucessful engagement plan.

You are a spellbreaker with Greatsword, Axe/Dagger and Shield btw.

You don't, i jumped around one for 4 minutes and they couldn't do jack.

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Jugglemonkey.8741

Jugglemonkey.8741

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@Anput.4620 said:

These people weren't sick of the game, they played it everyday and had fun, i haven't seen a roamer that focuses on fights that likes the mount yet.

Then that's their problem, WvW isn't just about fights, as much as you want it to be. WvW is lots of things, PvP... with PvE elements, tactical scouting. Small scale fights might be fun for you but in the grand scheme of WvW, pretty irrelevent.

No, but you are trying to say all roamers hate mounts and I told you you were wrong

I said fight focused roamers. I am not talking about the core rangers spamming 1 vs a camp.

Can you name 1 good open world PvP game with a mechanic like this? For example, the only BR game i know with mounts instadismounts you when hit, the mount has zero evades and a cast time.

I don't think most open world PvP games even have mounts, agressing is also always rewarded.

WvW is a sandbox mode, winning gives nothing. Restricting what people can and can't do is just bad. Why does it seem like the pro mount people just want to player vs door? The GvG blob people also don't use mounts in their fights.

It's not a sandbox mode, as you can't do anything you want. This isn't GTA online. Also, fight focused roamers, no wonder you aren't having fun.... if that's all you do then what's the point of WvW for you, could just play PvP (since while objective based has TONS of fights)

Battle Royale games and WvW are two different genres, using one as an example over the other doesn't help your case.

It is a sandbox mode, you
can
do whatever you want, there is no reward for winning either, i don't like PvP because i play solo, i also don't like objective-based gameplay when playing solo. I play MOBA's for that.

I can open a locked box with a sledgehammer, but that doesn't mean there's not an easier way to do it.

@"coro.3176" said:I propose a challenge to anyone who thinks dismounts are in a good state right now:
  • we both start mounted outside a southern tower in one of the borderlands
  • we both start at the same spot, within 100 range of each other.
  • If I can make it to the other southern tower, I win. If you manage to dismount me and catch up, you win.
  • use any class except soulbeast

sound good?

*I say "dismount and catch up" because I don't think it counts if you dismount with condi, but the other player is 5000 units away from you by the time they actually are dismounted. Then they just cleanse to break combat and remount.

We have to be careful here. If Anet's intention is exactly what has been delivered, then there isn't anything 'good' or 'bad' state. It's what is intended. If it's not exact, we know Anet will change it with hopes it's closer to what they intended. What we think as players is 'good' or 'bad' is completely irrelevant, because we don't know the intentions, or if we do, they are so vague and open to interpretation in most cases.

For all we know, in that scenario, Anet is sitting there and saying "Yes, exactly, that's what we want mounts to do for players" and it's not an unreasonable thing they would think that, given the way the mount is designed and what is necessary for players to interact with it.

Completely speculation here but ... I don't think Anet wants people to have 1 vs. 1 or 1 vs X encounters in transit in WvW. I can only guess it's because it's related to the spirit or theme of what WvW is about.

If what is intended is kitten design from a open world PvP game viewpoint then it is still kitten even though intended?

Spirit or theme? WvW is literally a sanbox mode where winning doesn't get you jack, heck, it used to give nothing and only cost a long time ago.

Why would they not want that? Any MMO open world PvP mode has it, also, there is a reason there are smaller objectives to take too, i am sure Anet didn't intend camps to be taken by 40 people. You can also have both playstyles be viable, like before.

I am sure the spirit of WvW is player versus player combat, no doubt about that.

Unpopular opinion; WvW is about capturing and holding objectives. It's literally the entire point of the mode, and servers are ranked on their ability to do just that. Yes, there's a big PvP aspect, and you're not forced to go full PvD or just play for the tick, but if you ignore objectives entirely you're quite frankly doing it wrong.

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Anput.4620

Anput.4620

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

These people weren't sick of the game, they played it everyday and had fun, i haven't seen a roamer that focuses on fights that likes the mount yet.

Then that's their problem, WvW isn't just about fights, as much as you want it to be. WvW is lots of things, PvP... with PvE elements, tactical scouting. Small scale fights might be fun for you but in the grand scheme of WvW, pretty irrelevent.

No, but you are trying to say all roamers hate mounts and I told you you were wrong

I said fight focused roamers. I am not talking about the core rangers spamming 1 vs a camp.

Can you name 1 good open world PvP game with a mechanic like this? For example, the only BR game i know with mounts instadismounts you when hit, the mount has zero evades and a cast time.

I don't think most open world PvP games even have mounts, agressing is also always rewarded.

WvW is a sandbox mode, winning gives nothing. Restricting what people can and can't do is just bad. Why does it seem like the pro mount people just want to player vs door? The GvG blob people also don't use mounts in their fights.

It's not a sandbox mode, as you can't do anything you want. This isn't GTA online. Also, fight focused roamers, no wonder you aren't having fun.... if that's all you do then what's the point of WvW for you, could just play PvP (since while objective based has TONS of fights)

Battle Royale games and WvW are two different genres, using one as an example over the other doesn't help your case.

It is a sandbox mode, you
can
do whatever you want, there is no reward for winning either, i don't like PvP because i play solo, i also don't like objective-based gameplay when playing solo. I play MOBA's for that.

I can open a locked box with a sledgehammer, but that doesn't mean there's not an easier way to do it.

@"coro.3176" said:I propose a challenge to anyone who thinks dismounts are in a good state right now:
  • we both start mounted outside a southern tower in one of the borderlands
  • we both start at the same spot, within 100 range of each other.
  • If I can make it to the other southern tower, I win. If you manage to dismount me and catch up, you win.
  • use any class except soulbeast

sound good?

*I say "dismount and catch up" because I don't think it counts if you dismount with condi, but the other player is 5000 units away from you by the time they actually are dismounted. Then they just cleanse to break combat and remount.

We have to be careful here. If Anet's intention is exactly what has been delivered, then there isn't anything 'good' or 'bad' state. It's what is intended. If it's not exact, we know Anet will change it with hopes it's closer to what they intended. What we think as players is 'good' or 'bad' is completely irrelevant, because we don't know the intentions, or if we do, they are so vague and open to interpretation in most cases.

For all we know, in that scenario, Anet is sitting there and saying "Yes, exactly, that's what we want mounts to do for players" and it's not an unreasonable thing they would think that, given the way the mount is designed and what is necessary for players to interact with it.

Completely speculation here but ... I don't think Anet wants people to have 1 vs. 1 or 1 vs X encounters in transit in WvW. I can only guess it's because it's related to the spirit or theme of what WvW is about.

If what is intended is kitten design from a open world PvP game viewpoint then it is still kitten even though intended?

Spirit or theme? WvW is literally a sanbox mode where winning doesn't get you jack, heck, it used to give nothing and only cost a long time ago.

Why would they not want that? Any MMO open world PvP mode has it, also, there is a reason there are smaller objectives to take too, i am sure Anet didn't intend camps to be taken by 40 people. You can also have both playstyles be viable, like before.

I am sure the spirit of WvW is player versus player combat, no doubt about that.

Unpopular opinion; WvW is about capturing and holding objectives. It's literally the entire point of the mode, and servers are ranked on their ability to do just that. Yes, there's a big PvP aspect, but if you ignore objectives entirely you're quite frankly doing it wrong.

Just like MOBA's are about taking objectives and defeating the enemies base, but what do people play those games for? The PvP or because they like to aim at a objective and attack it a la PvD?

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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

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@Anput.4620 said:I am tired by this PvE PPT Ktrain PvD mentality. Some people play the game for one aspect, this is like telling raiders to do PvP if raids ever got closed.

Fortunately, what you are tired of is irrelevant. Again, you seem to have this strong sense that the game is suppose to cater to you and what you like. That's not how it works. Sounds to me that playing the game for one aspect and expecting it to not change is a mistake you made. Sounds to me like Anet made the right decision to make these changes to re-align people to the goals of WvW. If it makes people not aligned to those goals find something else to do, it will make WvW better for the rest of us that do it.

Anet didn't intend kitten, as the mode has been like this for six years, they are just going for quantity over quality right now to milk mount skin money.

Of course, Anet doesn't intend for things they change to the game to be different ... big laf there. That's just you being salty.

What is wrong with Thieves and stealth? I can name more reasons why Necros are currently broken in WvW than how you can say Thieves are broken for sure.

Probably the same thing that makes mounts the way they work to avoid them. Maybe you just don't want to face the reality that this style of play is something Anet wants in WvW. If they did, they wouldn't have made these changes.

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Karnasis.6892

Karnasis.6892

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@Anput.4620 said:

It is a sandbox mode, you can do whatever you want, there is no reward for winning either, i don't like PvP because i play solo, i also don't like objective-based gameplay when playing solo. I play MOBA's for that.

There is a specific set of rules to this game mode, it is NOT a sandbox. Sandbox games are large scale maps where you can go anywhere and do almost anything. GTA, Watch Dogs, Red Dead Redemption are sandbox games. WvW is an objective based PvPvE war mode. I think the closest example of WvW is more like WoW's Battlegrounds than a sandbox game.

I've done PvP Solo with no real issues.... but if you hate it, it's because you hate losing more so than the fights (which also tells us more of why you hate mounts in WvW).

Sorry, it's gonna sound harsh, but if you can't adapt to something being added to the game... maybe it's time to move on? Or at least take a break for a while. I'm sure your friends would love to have another player they know they can count on in Apex legends

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Jugglemonkey.8741

Jugglemonkey.8741

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@Anput.4620 said:

These people weren't sick of the game, they played it everyday and had fun, i haven't seen a roamer that focuses on fights that likes the mount yet.

Then that's their problem, WvW isn't just about fights, as much as you want it to be. WvW is lots of things, PvP... with PvE elements, tactical scouting. Small scale fights might be fun for you but in the grand scheme of WvW, pretty irrelevent.

No, but you are trying to say all roamers hate mounts and I told you you were wrong

I said fight focused roamers. I am not talking about the core rangers spamming 1 vs a camp.

Can you name 1 good open world PvP game with a mechanic like this? For example, the only BR game i know with mounts instadismounts you when hit, the mount has zero evades and a cast time.

I don't think most open world PvP games even have mounts, agressing is also always rewarded.

WvW is a sandbox mode, winning gives nothing. Restricting what people can and can't do is just bad. Why does it seem like the pro mount people just want to player vs door? The GvG blob people also don't use mounts in their fights.

It's not a sandbox mode, as you can't do anything you want. This isn't GTA online. Also, fight focused roamers, no wonder you aren't having fun.... if that's all you do then what's the point of WvW for you, could just play PvP (since while objective based has TONS of fights)

Battle Royale games and WvW are two different genres, using one as an example over the other doesn't help your case.

It is a sandbox mode, you
can
do whatever you want, there is no reward for winning either, i don't like PvP because i play solo, i also don't like objective-based gameplay when playing solo. I play MOBA's for that.

I can open a locked box with a sledgehammer, but that doesn't mean there's not an easier way to do it.

@"coro.3176" said:I propose a challenge to anyone who thinks dismounts are in a good state right now:
  • we both start mounted outside a southern tower in one of the borderlands
  • we both start at the same spot, within 100 range of each other.
  • If I can make it to the other southern tower, I win. If you manage to dismount me and catch up, you win.
  • use any class except soulbeast

sound good?

*I say "dismount and catch up" because I don't think it counts if you dismount with condi, but the other player is 5000 units away from you by the time they actually are dismounted. Then they just cleanse to break combat and remount.

We have to be careful here. If Anet's intention is exactly what has been delivered, then there isn't anything 'good' or 'bad' state. It's what is intended. If it's not exact, we know Anet will change it with hopes it's closer to what they intended. What we think as players is 'good' or 'bad' is completely irrelevant, because we don't know the intentions, or if we do, they are so vague and open to interpretation in most cases.

For all we know, in that scenario, Anet is sitting there and saying "Yes, exactly, that's what we want mounts to do for players" and it's not an unreasonable thing they would think that, given the way the mount is designed and what is necessary for players to interact with it.

Completely speculation here but ... I don't think Anet wants people to have 1 vs. 1 or 1 vs X encounters in transit in WvW. I can only guess it's because it's related to the spirit or theme of what WvW is about.

If what is intended is kitten design from a open world PvP game viewpoint then it is still kitten even though intended?

Spirit or theme? WvW is literally a sanbox mode where winning doesn't get you jack, heck, it used to give nothing and only cost a long time ago.

Why would they not want that? Any MMO open world PvP mode has it, also, there is a reason there are smaller objectives to take too, i am sure Anet didn't intend camps to be taken by 40 people. You can also have both playstyles be viable, like before.

I am sure the spirit of WvW is player versus player combat, no doubt about that.

Unpopular opinion; WvW is about capturing and holding objectives. It's literally the entire point of the mode, and servers are ranked on their ability to do just that. Yes, there's a big PvP aspect, but if you ignore objectives entirely you're quite frankly doing it wrong.

Just like MOBA's are about taking objectives and defeating the enemies base, but what do people play those games for? The PvP or because they like to aim at a objective and attack it a la PvD?

Pretty sure I won't make many friends in any MOBA if I play a jungler and just chase after kills like an idiot and ignore my team's progress in the lanes. The objectives might be a means to an end to you, but they are what both games are built around, as neither GW2 or MOBA's are battle royale games.

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Anput.4620

Anput.4620

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@Karnasis.6892 said:

It is a sandbox mode, you
can
do whatever you want, there is no reward for winning either, i don't like PvP because i play solo, i also don't like objective-based gameplay when playing solo. I play MOBA's for that.

There is a specific set of rules to this game mode, it is NOT a sandbox. Sandbox games are large scale maps where you can go anywhere and do almost anything. GTA, Watch Dogs, Red Dead Redemption are sandbox games. WvW is an objective based PvPvE war mode. I think the closest example of WvW is more like WoW's Battlegrounds than a sandbox game.

I've done PvP Solo.... but if you hate it's because you hate losing more so than the fights (which also tells us more of why you hate mounts in WvW).

Sorry, it's gonna sound harsh, but if you can't adapt to something being added to the game... maybe it's time to move on? Or at least take a break for a while.

There are no rules, you aren't forced to participate in any specific way.

You get nothing for winning, there are some objectives to take but that is about it, you can literally do anything.

Why would i hate losing? Why do you assume every roamer is bad? You are saying that what i should do is run into a group of 10 people and die? What do you even expect here? Please elaborate on what this is supposed to mean. I like to run around on my greatsword warrior and get some kills, and now that i can't do that anymore i hate losing? What? Are you telling me that anyone that doesn't run into 5-10 players to get a fight that way is bad and just hates losing?

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Karnasis.6892

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Pretty sure I won't make many friends in any MOBA if I play a jungler and just chase after kills like an idiot and ignore my team's progress in the lanes. The objectives might be a means to an end to you, but they are what both games are built around, as neither GW2 or MOBA's are battle royale games.

Sounds like he'd just prefer a BR game or Call of Duty or any game with a deathmatch option (or team deathmatch option)

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Jugglemonkey.8741

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@Anput.4620 said:

Well, it depends if they turn towards me or away from me for a start. If they run away and they're already at distance, they're likely not worth bothering with and never were even before mounts were implemented. This is why I tend to fight over objectives, as more people will come if you're attacking or defending something, and the mounts thing is a non issue. Assuming they're running at me, what I do depends on if I can kill the sentry before they get to me or not.

Usually I'm on P/D for sentries as it uses the least cooldowns to kill them, this would mean weapon swap is off cooldown while I'm fighting. If I kill the sentry before they get to me I'll place two needle traps on to of each other for stealth (trapper runes ftw), swap to shortbow, sneak attack for immob (mount is immune to CC, but the duration stacks for when they're dismounted) and get ready to dodge their maul. Since the maul skill isn't a dodge, the traps force a dismount, between the traps and the sneak attack I've applied 12.5 seconds of immob which is definitely less time than it takes me to dismount them. So I spam choking gas while they're knocked down and immobilised and laugh maniacally as they get daze locked. If they dismount at range, I stealth with shadow trap, swap to shortbow, sneak attack for immob, spam choking gas, and laugh maniacally as they get daze locked. If either of these don't work, I have a second spike from stealing into weapon swap to P/D for geomancy and doom procs, or I can use my now superior mobility to escape. Also while laughing maniacally, as what would be the fun if I didn't.

I've tried to convince him about fighting over objectives in another thread... he didn't bite.

Solid response though :)

When i tried a holo just ran in circles on the camp until his 2 buddies came to gank me.

@Voltekka.2375 said:Strange. I play scourge and i cant find the permaevade button, the 15k+ backstabs out of permastealth, or the 1800 attack range, or the permasustain on my character. Please fix.Classes are good at something. Others at zerging, others excel at roaming. However, if you have issues killing a scourge as a thief or ranger, buddy, I have news for you...

But mounts made those useless, so i heard the field has been evened yet those classes can't suddenly do well in zergs while every slow class can now avoid any fight at will for free. So if roaming is dead and unviable and Zerg is the only thing now then that makes those other classes very bad, yet i hear everyone say things are fair now?

I literally can't roam except if i pick ranger with full zerk with a longbow, then i can be just little under half as effective as before, but my other specs can't do anything. So how do i use my Thieves in the TRUE WVW PLAYSTYLE of spamming AoE vs mobs when i have no aoe :/

@Voltekka.2375 said:Strange. I play scourge and i cant find the permaevade button, the 15k+ backstabs out of permastealth, or the 1800 attack range, or the permasustain on my character. Please fix.Classes are good at something. Others at zerging, others excel at roaming. However, if you have issues killing a scourge as a thief or ranger, buddy, I have news for you...

Maybe not, but you do get most of the benefits of the daredevil elite spec with warclaw.

Your point that classes are good at different things is correct, but there's a lot of issues at the moment with new content granting skills that bleed into another profession's defined strengths with little drawback, making the other profession worth less overall as a result. Mobility and mounts is one example, new sneak gyro and shadow refuge would be another. Or, just granting too much in general, to the exclusion of everything else; PvE chrono comes to mind here.

If the thing you are good at has been gutted/made unplayable you might aswell be good at nothing.

I don't know what game you're playing, but I see daredevil, deadeye and even plenty of core thief builds everywhere I go when roaming. Daredevil especially is practically unkillable and uncatchable. If you're struggling, it isn't the class in this case. Grab a shortbow and l2p, bud.

That's the problem ... he's not adapting to the game. He's simply concluded mounts are bad and doesn't know a thing about how to interact with them in the game.

How does a warrior adapt to this change, or a sword weaver? Please elaborate your dismounting tactics here.

Maybe they can't ... and there isn't a problem with that. It's not a problem that every class doesn't have good access to every thing. That's why there are things called teams and people in them doing something called 'teamwork'. You should try it. It's amazing. It's how good players do things.

That is a problem because that means it is overpowered and unbalanced.

No, that's never been the case. There are lots of classes that can't do many things ... that doesn't mean they are underpowered or under balanced at all. The kind of thinking you exhibit doesn't make sense because at the end of the day, you have to make choices for ONE BUILD, so even if a class is good at something, you might not choose to do that thing. In short, you couldn't be more wrong about the abilities classes should have and how that translates into game balance.

Even if Class X was good at dismounting ... that doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that the person playing it will make a dismounting build. That's precisely the reason why every class DOESN'T need to have a way to adapt to mounts. If you want to dismount players, make good choices to do so if that's indeed such a huge thing for how you play the game.

What I really think here is that you don't want to work for dismounting players, because you simply don't like mounts. You're one of these players that thinks if we have enough 1000 page threads about it, Anet will nerf them. At least it's entertaining ... my advice is that you better get over yourself here because mounts aren't going anywhere.

There is literally no build capable of easilly dismounting people, longbow soulbeast is the only one that has a decent chance.

My condi daredevil. Get the doom proc ready on your bar, make sure P/D is equipped for the sigils, then use the maul skill. Applies 4 bleed and 3 poison from doom, dismounts which procs geomancy and doom a second time for a total of 7 bleed and 6 poison stacks, all from the mount maul skill and sigil procs.

With those stats, poison does 163 damage per second per stack, bleed does 111 damage per second per stack. So that's 978 poison damage per second plus 777 bleed damage per second for a total of 1755 condi damage per second, which will dismount a player with 10972 health in 6.25 seconds, so 7 seconds to allow for condi damage applying in intervals of once per second. The stacks last between 11 and 14 seconds, so simply pressing one button on my build forces them to dismount and cleanse, or be knocked off by the condis. It really doesn't get much easier than that, and literally every class can do it.

So let's say, you are roaming, taking a sentry in enemy territory, you see a mounted enemy in the distance, they see you and start to turn around, now tell me how you would engage that.

I wouldn't because I'm not making builds to do that kind of thing. There are many builds that do many things in WvW, and you have to choose which ones you want to use. Again, if you want to make a build to engage mounted players in the scenario you describe, you can. Many people have told you how in the thread.

Everything you said there is wrong. Anet decides how the game works, not players. You don't know who likes the mount. What any PVP focused community of any game thinks is irrelevant to GW2. What is relevant is how Anet wants the game to work. False statements do not make a compelling argument for change.

I think he's basing all judgments after his friends left the game to play Apex as opposed to actually playing WvW. For example I can used biased data to show that only one of my guildies stopped playing as he hated mounts, and went to GW1 instead lol, but everyone else likes the mounts. My running theory was that his friends were looking for an excuse to quit gw2 anyway.

Aren't you a PvE player? You ment your PvE guild? The person in my WvW guild says he has met no one pro-mounts yet, nor in my roaming guild, where many people quit. I have tried the WvW, i could get 1 fight in an evening of playing my Engie, 1 fight with my Ele, 2 with my Thief and a few with my Soulbeast, the amount of times i dismounted someone there was maybe twice in total, where both where on Soulbeast too. That is hours of playtime to get a fight.

These friends of mine loved the game, they roamed almost every day, why would they need an excuse to quit?

Sounds to me like they liked roaming more than they loved the game, otherwise they wouldn't have quit. I think the core problem here is that just because you could do a thing in WvW doesn't mean that's what Anet intended players to do in WvW. I'm impressed by how hard people push to maintain this 'roaming PVP' mentality in WvW ... when they can do it in PvP pretty much on demand in an endless stream.

But it's not even that ... what I really think of you and your criticism ... UMADBRO because no more easy stealth kills. Just a hunch:

I am tired by this PvE PPT Ktrain PvD mentality. Some people play the game for one aspect, this is like telling raiders to do PvP if raids ever got closed.

Anet didn't intend kitten, as the mode has been like this for six years, they are just going for quantity over quality right now to milk mount skin money.

What is wrong with Thieves and stealth? I can name more reasons why Necros are currently broken in WvW than how you can say Thieves are broken for sure.

@"coro.3176" said:I propose a challenge to anyone who thinks dismounts are in a good state right now:
  • we both start mounted outside a southern tower in one of the borderlands
  • we both start at the same spot, within 100 range of each other.
  • If I can make it to the other southern tower, I win. If you manage to dismount me and catch up, you win.
  • use any class except soulbeast

sound good?

*I say "dismount and catch up" because I don't think it counts if you dismount with condi, but the other player is 5000 units away from you by the time they actually are dismounted. Then they just cleanse to break combat and remount.

-hops on thief or teleport rev-Sure.

And, I mean, what's wrong with using condis to dismount? You can mount up and catch up fairly quickly whilst they're stunned from the demount and breaking combat.

~ Kovu

So let's say you are swimming across the river in ascension bay to go into enemy territory to roam, you go and move to the sentry as soon as you are out of the water, another player sees you, they are capping the sentry, as soon as they see you they mount up and bolt, give me your sucessful engagement plan.

You are a spellbreaker with Greatsword, Axe/Dagger and Shield btw.

You don't, i jumped around one for 4 minutes and they couldn't do jack.

You take the camp, wait for him to circle back and commit to the fight and then murder him. I'm not sure what's so difficult about this.

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Obtena.7952

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Well, it depends if they turn towards me or away from me for a start. If they run away and they're already at distance, they're likely not worth bothering with and never were even before mounts were implemented. This is why I tend to fight over objectives, as more people will come if you're attacking or defending something, and the mounts thing is a non issue. Assuming they're running at me, what I do depends on if I can kill the sentry before they get to me or not.

Usually I'm on P/D for sentries as it uses the least cooldowns to kill them, this would mean weapon swap is off cooldown while I'm fighting. If I kill the sentry before they get to me I'll place two needle traps on to of each other for stealth (trapper runes ftw), swap to shortbow, sneak attack for immob (mount is immune to CC, but the duration stacks for when they're dismounted) and get ready to dodge their maul. Since the maul skill isn't a dodge, the traps force a dismount, between the traps and the sneak attack I've applied 12.5 seconds of immob which is definitely less time than it takes me to dismount them. So I spam choking gas while they're knocked down and immobilised and laugh maniacally as they get daze locked. If they dismount at range, I stealth with shadow trap, swap to shortbow, sneak attack for immob, spam choking gas, and laugh maniacally as they get daze locked. If either of these don't work, I have a second spike from stealing into weapon swap to P/D for geomancy and doom procs, or I can use my now superior mobility to escape. Also while laughing maniacally, as what would be the fun if I didn't.

I've tried to convince him about fighting over objectives in another thread... he didn't bite.

Solid response though :)

When i tried a holo just ran in circles on the camp until his 2 buddies came to gank me.

@Voltekka.2375 said:Strange. I play scourge and i cant find the permaevade button, the 15k+ backstabs out of permastealth, or the 1800 attack range, or the permasustain on my character. Please fix.Classes are good at something. Others at zerging, others excel at roaming. However, if you have issues killing a scourge as a thief or ranger, buddy, I have news for you...

But mounts made those useless, so i heard the field has been evened yet those classes can't suddenly do well in zergs while every slow class can now avoid any fight at will for free. So if roaming is dead and unviable and Zerg is the only thing now then that makes those other classes very bad, yet i hear everyone say things are fair now?

I literally can't roam except if i pick ranger with full zerk with a longbow, then i can be just little under half as effective as before, but my other specs can't do anything. So how do i use my Thieves in the TRUE WVW PLAYSTYLE of spamming AoE vs mobs when i have no aoe :/

@Voltekka.2375 said:Strange. I play scourge and i cant find the permaevade button, the 15k+ backstabs out of permastealth, or the 1800 attack range, or the permasustain on my character. Please fix.Classes are good at something. Others at zerging, others excel at roaming. However, if you have issues killing a scourge as a thief or ranger, buddy, I have news for you...

Maybe not, but you do get most of the benefits of the daredevil elite spec with warclaw.

Your point that classes are good at different things is correct, but there's a lot of issues at the moment with new content granting skills that bleed into another profession's defined strengths with little drawback, making the other profession worth less overall as a result. Mobility and mounts is one example, new sneak gyro and shadow refuge would be another. Or, just granting too much in general, to the exclusion of everything else; PvE chrono comes to mind here.

If the thing you are good at has been gutted/made unplayable you might aswell be good at nothing.

I don't know what game you're playing, but I see daredevil, deadeye and even plenty of core thief builds everywhere I go when roaming. Daredevil especially is practically unkillable and uncatchable. If you're struggling, it isn't the class in this case. Grab a shortbow and l2p, bud.

That's the problem ... he's not adapting to the game. He's simply concluded mounts are bad and doesn't know a thing about how to interact with them in the game.

How does a warrior adapt to this change, or a sword weaver? Please elaborate your dismounting tactics here.

Maybe they can't ... and there isn't a problem with that. It's not a problem that every class doesn't have good access to every thing. That's why there are things called teams and people in them doing something called 'teamwork'. You should try it. It's amazing. It's how good players do things.

That is a problem because that means it is overpowered and unbalanced.

No, that's never been the case. There are lots of classes that can't do many things ... that doesn't mean they are underpowered or under balanced at all. The kind of thinking you exhibit doesn't make sense because at the end of the day, you have to make choices for ONE BUILD, so even if a class is good at something, you might not choose to do that thing. In short, you couldn't be more wrong about the abilities classes should have and how that translates into game balance.

Even if Class X was good at dismounting ... that doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that the person playing it will make a dismounting build. That's precisely the reason why every class DOESN'T need to have a way to adapt to mounts. If you want to dismount players, make good choices to do so if that's indeed such a huge thing for how you play the game.

What I really think here is that you don't want to work for dismounting players, because you simply don't like mounts. You're one of these players that thinks if we have enough 1000 page threads about it, Anet will nerf them. At least it's entertaining ... my advice is that you better get over yourself here because mounts aren't going anywhere.

There is literally no build capable of easilly dismounting people, longbow soulbeast is the only one that has a decent chance.

My condi daredevil. Get the doom proc ready on your bar, make sure P/D is equipped for the sigils, then use the maul skill. Applies 4 bleed and 3 poison from doom, dismounts which procs geomancy and doom a second time for a total of 7 bleed and 6 poison stacks, all from the mount maul skill and sigil procs.

With those stats, poison does 163 damage per second per stack, bleed does 111 damage per second per stack. So that's 978 poison damage per second plus 777 bleed damage per second for a total of 1755 condi damage per second, which will dismount a player with 10972 health in 6.25 seconds, so 7 seconds to allow for condi damage applying in intervals of once per second. The stacks last between 11 and 14 seconds, so simply pressing one button on my build forces them to dismount and cleanse, or be knocked off by the condis. It really doesn't get much easier than that, and literally every class can do it.

So let's say, you are roaming, taking a sentry in enemy territory, you see a mounted enemy in the distance, they see you and start to turn around, now tell me how you would engage that.

I wouldn't because I'm not making builds to do that kind of thing. There are many builds that do many things in WvW, and you have to choose which ones you want to use. Again, if you want to make a build to engage mounted players in the scenario you describe, you can. Many people have told you how in the thread.

Everything you said there is wrong. Anet decides how the game works, not players. You don't know who likes the mount. What any PVP focused community of any game thinks is irrelevant to GW2. What is relevant is how Anet wants the game to work. False statements do not make a compelling argument for change.

I think he's basing all judgments after his friends left the game to play Apex as opposed to actually playing WvW. For example I can used biased data to show that only one of my guildies stopped playing as he hated mounts, and went to GW1 instead lol, but everyone else likes the mounts. My running theory was that his friends were looking for an excuse to quit gw2 anyway.

Aren't you a PvE player? You ment your PvE guild? The person in my WvW guild says he has met no one pro-mounts yet, nor in my roaming guild, where many people quit. I have tried the WvW, i could get 1 fight in an evening of playing my Engie, 1 fight with my Ele, 2 with my Thief and a few with my Soulbeast, the amount of times i dismounted someone there was maybe twice in total, where both where on Soulbeast too. That is hours of playtime to get a fight.

These friends of mine loved the game, they roamed almost every day, why would they need an excuse to quit?

Sounds to me like they liked roaming more than they loved the game, otherwise they wouldn't have quit. I think the core problem here is that just because you could do a thing in WvW doesn't mean that's what Anet intended players to do in WvW. I'm impressed by how hard people push to maintain this 'roaming PVP' mentality in WvW ... when they can do it in PvP pretty much on demand in an endless stream.

But it's not even that ... what I really think of you and your criticism ... UMADBRO because no more easy stealth kills. Just a hunch:

I am tired by this PvE PPT Ktrain PvD mentality. Some people play the game for one aspect, this is like telling raiders to do PvP if raids ever got closed.

Anet didn't intend kitten, as the mode has been like this for six years, they are just going for quantity over quality right now to milk mount skin money.

What is wrong with Thieves and stealth? I can name more reasons why Necros are currently broken in WvW than how you can say Thieves are broken for sure.

@"coro.3176" said:I propose a challenge to anyone who thinks dismounts are in a good state right now:
  • we both start mounted outside a southern tower in one of the borderlands
  • we both start at the same spot, within 100 range of each other.
  • If I can make it to the other southern tower, I win. If you manage to dismount me and catch up, you win.
  • use any class except soulbeast

sound good?

*I say "dismount and catch up" because I don't think it counts if you dismount with condi, but the other player is 5000 units away from you by the time they actually are dismounted. Then they just cleanse to break combat and remount.

-hops on thief or teleport rev-Sure.

And, I mean, what's wrong with using condis to dismount? You can mount up and catch up fairly quickly whilst they're stunned from the demount and breaking combat.

~ Kovu

So let's say you are swimming across the river in ascension bay to go into enemy territory to roam, you go and move to the sentry as soon as you are out of the water, another player sees you, they are capping the sentry, as soon as they see you they mount up and bolt, give me your sucessful engagement plan.

You are a spellbreaker with Greatsword, Axe/Dagger and Shield btw.

You don't, i jumped around one for 4 minutes and they couldn't do jack.

You take the camp, wait for him to circle back and commit to the fight and then murder him. I'm not sure what's so difficult about this.

It's probably REALLY difficult if you are a stealth DE trying to one-shot people from 1500.

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Anput.4620

Anput.4620

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

These people weren't sick of the game, they played it everyday and had fun, i haven't seen a roamer that focuses on fights that likes the mount yet.

Then that's their problem, WvW isn't just about fights, as much as you want it to be. WvW is lots of things, PvP... with PvE elements, tactical scouting. Small scale fights might be fun for you but in the grand scheme of WvW, pretty irrelevent.

No, but you are trying to say all roamers hate mounts and I told you you were wrong

I said fight focused roamers. I am not talking about the core rangers spamming 1 vs a camp.

Can you name 1 good open world PvP game with a mechanic like this? For example, the only BR game i know with mounts instadismounts you when hit, the mount has zero evades and a cast time.

I don't think most open world PvP games even have mounts, agressing is also always rewarded.

WvW is a sandbox mode, winning gives nothing. Restricting what people can and can't do is just bad. Why does it seem like the pro mount people just want to player vs door? The GvG blob people also don't use mounts in their fights.

It's not a sandbox mode, as you can't do anything you want. This isn't GTA online. Also, fight focused roamers, no wonder you aren't having fun.... if that's all you do then what's the point of WvW for you, could just play PvP (since while objective based has TONS of fights)

Battle Royale games and WvW are two different genres, using one as an example over the other doesn't help your case.

It is a sandbox mode, you
can
do whatever you want, there is no reward for winning either, i don't like PvP because i play solo, i also don't like objective-based gameplay when playing solo. I play MOBA's for that.

I can open a locked box with a sledgehammer, but that doesn't mean there's not an easier way to do it.

@"coro.3176" said:I propose a challenge to anyone who thinks dismounts are in a good state right now:
  • we both start mounted outside a southern tower in one of the borderlands
  • we both start at the same spot, within 100 range of each other.
  • If I can make it to the other southern tower, I win. If you manage to dismount me and catch up, you win.
  • use any class except soulbeast

sound good?

*I say "dismount and catch up" because I don't think it counts if you dismount with condi, but the other player is 5000 units away from you by the time they actually are dismounted. Then they just cleanse to break combat and remount.

We have to be careful here. If Anet's intention is exactly what has been delivered, then there isn't anything 'good' or 'bad' state. It's what is intended. If it's not exact, we know Anet will change it with hopes it's closer to what they intended. What we think as players is 'good' or 'bad' is completely irrelevant, because we don't know the intentions, or if we do, they are so vague and open to interpretation in most cases.

For all we know, in that scenario, Anet is sitting there and saying "Yes, exactly, that's what we want mounts to do for players" and it's not an unreasonable thing they would think that, given the way the mount is designed and what is necessary for players to interact with it.

Completely speculation here but ... I don't think Anet wants people to have 1 vs. 1 or 1 vs X encounters in transit in WvW. I can only guess it's because it's related to the spirit or theme of what WvW is about.

If what is intended is kitten design from a open world PvP game viewpoint then it is still kitten even though intended?

Spirit or theme? WvW is literally a sanbox mode where winning doesn't get you jack, heck, it used to give nothing and only cost a long time ago.

Why would they not want that? Any MMO open world PvP mode has it, also, there is a reason there are smaller objectives to take too, i am sure Anet didn't intend camps to be taken by 40 people. You can also have both playstyles be viable, like before.

I am sure the spirit of WvW is player versus player combat, no doubt about that.

Unpopular opinion; WvW is about capturing and holding objectives. It's literally the entire point of the mode, and servers are ranked on their ability to do just that. Yes, there's a big PvP aspect, but if you ignore objectives entirely you're quite frankly doing it wrong.

Just like MOBA's are about taking objectives and defeating the enemies base, but what do people play those games for? The PvP or because they like to aim at a objective and attack it a la PvD?

Pretty sure I won't make many friends in any MOBA if I play a jungler and just chase after kills like an idiot and ignore my team's progress in the lanes. The objectives might be a means to an end to you, but they are what both games are built around, as neither GW2 or MOBA's are battle royale games.

In MOBA's i can do the objectives WHILE being a jungler chasing around kills all game too! That is why i like those. I could take camps and sentries while also doing the chasing and dwindling reinforcements before, now i can't. If i "go and look" for PvP at said objectives i just get instadowned by a group of 10.

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@Anput.4620 said:

It is a sandbox mode, you
can
do whatever you want, there is no reward for winning either, i don't like PvP because i play solo, i also don't like objective-based gameplay when playing solo. I play MOBA's for that.

There is a specific set of rules to this game mode, it is NOT a sandbox. Sandbox games are large scale maps where you can go anywhere and do almost anything. GTA, Watch Dogs, Red Dead Redemption are sandbox games. WvW is an objective based PvPvE war mode. I think the closest example of WvW is more like WoW's Battlegrounds than a sandbox game.

I've done PvP Solo.... but if you hate it's because you hate losing more so than the fights (which also tells us more of why you hate mounts in WvW).

Sorry, it's gonna sound harsh, but if you can't adapt to something being added to the game... maybe it's time to move on? Or at least take a break for a while.

There are no rules, you aren't forced to participate in any specific way.

That doesn't make sense. Clearly, Anet thinks otherwise ... they made some changes that have a SIGNIFICANT impact on how you participate. Otherwise you wouldn't be complaining now would you?

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@Karnasis.6892 said:

Pretty sure I won't make many friends in any MOBA if I play a jungler and just chase after kills like an idiot and ignore my team's progress in the lanes. The objectives might be a means to an end to you, but they are what both games are built around, as neither GW2 or MOBA's are battle royale games.

Sounds like he'd just prefer a BR game or Call of Duty or any game with a deathmatch option (or team deathmatch option)

Give me such a game but in an open persistent world with MMO/Action combat and depth a la classes/specs/builds and no grind and ill be off to there.

@Obtena.7952 said:

Well, it depends if they turn towards me or away from me for a start. If they run away and they're already at distance, they're likely not worth bothering with and never were even before mounts were implemented. This is why I tend to fight over objectives, as more people will come if you're attacking or defending something, and the mounts thing is a non issue. Assuming they're running at me, what I do depends on if I can kill the sentry before they get to me or not.

Usually I'm on P/D for sentries as it uses the least cooldowns to kill them, this would mean weapon swap is off cooldown while I'm fighting. If I kill the sentry before they get to me I'll place two needle traps on to of each other for stealth (trapper runes ftw), swap to shortbow, sneak attack for immob (mount is immune to CC, but the duration stacks for when they're dismounted) and get ready to dodge their maul. Since the maul skill isn't a dodge, the traps force a dismount, between the traps and the sneak attack I've applied 12.5 seconds of immob which is definitely less time than it takes me to dismount them. So I spam choking gas while they're knocked down and immobilised and laugh maniacally as they get daze locked. If they dismount at range, I stealth with shadow trap, swap to shortbow, sneak attack for immob, spam choking gas, and laugh maniacally as they get daze locked. If either of these don't work, I have a second spike from stealing into weapon swap to P/D for geomancy and doom procs, or I can use my now superior mobility to escape. Also while laughing maniacally, as what would be the fun if I didn't.

I've tried to convince him about fighting over objectives in another thread... he didn't bite.

Solid response though :)

When i tried a holo just ran in circles on the camp until his 2 buddies came to gank me.

@Voltekka.2375 said:Strange. I play scourge and i cant find the permaevade button, the 15k+ backstabs out of permastealth, or the 1800 attack range, or the permasustain on my character. Please fix.Classes are good at something. Others at zerging, others excel at roaming. However, if you have issues killing a scourge as a thief or ranger, buddy, I have news for you...

But mounts made those useless, so i heard the field has been evened yet those classes can't suddenly do well in zergs while every slow class can now avoid any fight at will for free. So if roaming is dead and unviable and Zerg is the only thing now then that makes those other classes very bad, yet i hear everyone say things are fair now?

I literally can't roam except if i pick ranger with full zerk with a longbow, then i can be just little under half as effective as before, but my other specs can't do anything. So how do i use my Thieves in the TRUE WVW PLAYSTYLE of spamming AoE vs mobs when i have no aoe :/

@Voltekka.2375 said:Strange. I play scourge and i cant find the permaevade button, the 15k+ backstabs out of permastealth, or the 1800 attack range, or the permasustain on my character. Please fix.Classes are good at something. Others at zerging, others excel at roaming. However, if you have issues killing a scourge as a thief or ranger, buddy, I have news for you...

Maybe not, but you do get most of the benefits of the daredevil elite spec with warclaw.

Your point that classes are good at different things is correct, but there's a lot of issues at the moment with new content granting skills that bleed into another profession's defined strengths with little drawback, making the other profession worth less overall as a result. Mobility and mounts is one example, new sneak gyro and shadow refuge would be another. Or, just granting too much in general, to the exclusion of everything else; PvE chrono comes to mind here.

If the thing you are good at has been gutted/made unplayable you might aswell be good at nothing.

I don't know what game you're playing, but I see daredevil, deadeye and even plenty of core thief builds everywhere I go when roaming. Daredevil especially is practically unkillable and uncatchable. If you're struggling, it isn't the class in this case. Grab a shortbow and l2p, bud.

That's the problem ... he's not adapting to the game. He's simply concluded mounts are bad and doesn't know a thing about how to interact with them in the game.

How does a warrior adapt to this change, or a sword weaver? Please elaborate your dismounting tactics here.

Maybe they can't ... and there isn't a problem with that. It's not a problem that every class doesn't have good access to every thing. That's why there are things called teams and people in them doing something called 'teamwork'. You should try it. It's amazing. It's how good players do things.

That is a problem because that means it is overpowered and unbalanced.

No, that's never been the case. There are lots of classes that can't do many things ... that doesn't mean they are underpowered or under balanced at all. The kind of thinking you exhibit doesn't make sense because at the end of the day, you have to make choices for ONE BUILD, so even if a class is good at something, you might not choose to do that thing. In short, you couldn't be more wrong about the abilities classes should have and how that translates into game balance.

Even if Class X was good at dismounting ... that doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that the person playing it will make a dismounting build. That's precisely the reason why every class DOESN'T need to have a way to adapt to mounts. If you want to dismount players, make good choices to do so if that's indeed such a huge thing for how you play the game.

What I really think here is that you don't want to work for dismounting players, because you simply don't like mounts. You're one of these players that thinks if we have enough 1000 page threads about it, Anet will nerf them. At least it's entertaining ... my advice is that you better get over yourself here because mounts aren't going anywhere.

There is literally no build capable of easilly dismounting people, longbow soulbeast is the only one that has a decent chance.

My condi daredevil. Get the doom proc ready on your bar, make sure P/D is equipped for the sigils, then use the maul skill. Applies 4 bleed and 3 poison from doom, dismounts which procs geomancy and doom a second time for a total of 7 bleed and 6 poison stacks, all from the mount maul skill and sigil procs.

With those stats, poison does 163 damage per second per stack, bleed does 111 damage per second per stack. So that's 978 poison damage per second plus 777 bleed damage per second for a total of 1755 condi damage per second, which will dismount a player with 10972 health in 6.25 seconds, so 7 seconds to allow for condi damage applying in intervals of once per second. The stacks last between 11 and 14 seconds, so simply pressing one button on my build forces them to dismount and cleanse, or be knocked off by the condis. It really doesn't get much easier than that, and literally every class can do it.

So let's say, you are roaming, taking a sentry in enemy territory, you see a mounted enemy in the distance, they see you and start to turn around, now tell me how you would engage that.

I wouldn't because I'm not making builds to do that kind of thing. There are many builds that do many things in WvW, and you have to choose which ones you want to use. Again, if you want to make a build to engage mounted players in the scenario you describe, you can. Many people have told you how in the thread.

Everything you said there is wrong. Anet decides how the game works, not players. You don't know who likes the mount. What any PVP focused community of any game thinks is irrelevant to GW2. What is relevant is how Anet wants the game to work. False statements do not make a compelling argument for change.

I think he's basing all judgments after his friends left the game to play Apex as opposed to actually playing WvW. For example I can used biased data to show that only one of my guildies stopped playing as he hated mounts, and went to GW1 instead lol, but everyone else likes the mounts. My running theory was that his friends were looking for an excuse to quit gw2 anyway.

Aren't you a PvE player? You ment your PvE guild? The person in my WvW guild says he has met no one pro-mounts yet, nor in my roaming guild, where many people quit. I have tried the WvW, i could get 1 fight in an evening of playing my Engie, 1 fight with my Ele, 2 with my Thief and a few with my Soulbeast, the amount of times i dismounted someone there was maybe twice in total, where both where on Soulbeast too. That is hours of playtime to get a fight.

These friends of mine loved the game, they roamed almost every day, why would they need an excuse to quit?

Sounds to me like they liked roaming more than they loved the game, otherwise they wouldn't have quit. I think the core problem here is that just because you could do a thing in WvW doesn't mean that's what Anet intended players to do in WvW. I'm impressed by how hard people push to maintain this 'roaming PVP' mentality in WvW ... when they can do it in PvP pretty much on demand in an endless stream.

But it's not even that ... what I really think of you and your criticism ... UMADBRO because no more easy stealth kills. Just a hunch:

I am tired by this PvE PPT Ktrain PvD mentality. Some people play the game for one aspect, this is like telling raiders to do PvP if raids ever got closed.

Anet didn't intend kitten, as the mode has been like this for six years, they are just going for quantity over quality right now to milk mount skin money.

What is wrong with Thieves and stealth? I can name more reasons why Necros are currently broken in WvW than how you can say Thieves are broken for sure.

@"coro.3176" said:I propose a challenge to anyone who thinks dismounts are in a good state right now:
  • we both start mounted outside a southern tower in one of the borderlands
  • we both start at the same spot, within 100 range of each other.
  • If I can make it to the other southern tower, I win. If you manage to dismount me and catch up, you win.
  • use any class except soulbeast

sound good?

*I say "dismount and catch up" because I don't think it counts if you dismount with condi, but the other player is 5000 units away from you by the time they actually are dismounted. Then they just cleanse to break combat and remount.

-hops on thief or teleport rev-Sure.

And, I mean, what's wrong with using condis to dismount? You can mount up and catch up fairly quickly whilst they're stunned from the demount and breaking combat.

~ Kovu

So let's say you are swimming across the river in ascension bay to go into enemy territory to roam, you go and move to the sentry as soon as you are out of the water, another player sees you, they are capping the sentry, as soon as they see you they mount up and bolt, give me your sucessful engagement plan.

You are a spellbreaker with Greatsword, Axe/Dagger and Shield btw.

You don't, i jumped around one for 4 minutes and they couldn't do jack.

You take the camp, wait for him to circle back and commit to the fight and then murder him. I'm not sure what's so difficult about this.

It's probably REALLY difficult if you are a stealth DE trying to one-shot people from 1500.

This already tells me you have zero knowledge on how DE works because that is not how you oneshot someone, a DE tried that to me the other day and i killed them 2 times, third time they gave up and i let them run away. DE's aren't hard to kill or catch, DD's are. Please show me a rifle DE oneshotting someone with a single ability from 1500 range without prior setup/malice gain.

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@Anput.4620 said:

Why would i hate losing? Why do you assume every roamer is bad? You are saying that what i should do is run into a group of 10 people and die? What do you even expect here? Please elaborate on what this is supposed to mean. I like to run around on my greatsword warrior and get some kills, and now that i can't do that anymore i hate losing? What? Are you telling me that anyone that doesn't run into 5-10 players to get a fight that way is bad and just hates losing?

No no, you get me all wrong. I don't assume every roamer is bad... after our conversations today I assume YOU are bad at roaming. I don't expect you to run into a zerg, but you are looking for ONLY fights, which makes you a bad roamer. A GOOD roamer should also hit objectives, possibly do some basic scouting for zergs, maybe kill a person or two or be a general nuisance to the opposing enemies. Mounts wouldn't really effect you that much if you did those things. But instead you choose to not adapt to the new style of gameplay and instead insist we nerf a mount to the ground so you can get a few more kills.

I gave you an option to get all the fights you want, but you said it's because you would be solo in the pvp maps. I've played solo in pvp, it's not as bad as you think. However I INFERRED that you don't like solo queuing in pvp becuase you hate losing, otherwise what would be the problem?

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@Anput.4620 said:This already tells me you have zero knowledge on how DE works because that is not how you oneshot someone, a DE tried that to me the other day and i killed them 2 times, third time they gave up and i let them run away. DE's aren't hard to kill or catch, DD's are. Please show me a rifle DE oneshotting someone with a single ability from 1500 range without prior setup/malice gain.

Which has nothing to do with the thread mind you ...

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@Obtena.7952 said:

These people weren't sick of the game, they played it everyday and had fun, i haven't seen a roamer that focuses on fights that likes the mount yet.

Then that's their problem, WvW isn't just about fights, as much as you want it to be. WvW is lots of things, PvP... with PvE elements, tactical scouting. Small scale fights might be fun for you but in the grand scheme of WvW, pretty irrelevent.

No, but you are trying to say all roamers hate mounts and I told you you were wrong

I said fight focused roamers. I am not talking about the core rangers spamming 1 vs a camp.

Can you name 1 good open world PvP game with a mechanic like this? For example, the only BR game i know with mounts instadismounts you when hit, the mount has zero evades and a cast time.

I don't think most open world PvP games even have mounts, agressing is also always rewarded.

WvW is a sandbox mode, winning gives nothing. Restricting what people can and can't do is just bad. Why does it seem like the pro mount people just want to player vs door? The GvG blob people also don't use mounts in their fights.

It's not a sandbox mode, as you can't do anything you want. This isn't GTA online. Also, fight focused roamers, no wonder you aren't having fun.... if that's all you do then what's the point of WvW for you, could just play PvP (since while objective based has TONS of fights)

Battle Royale games and WvW are two different genres, using one as an example over the other doesn't help your case.

It is a sandbox mode, you
can
do whatever you want, there is no reward for winning either, i don't like PvP because i play solo, i also don't like objective-based gameplay when playing solo. I play MOBA's for that.

@"coro.3176" said:I propose a challenge to anyone who thinks dismounts are in a good state right now:
  • we both start mounted outside a southern tower in one of the borderlands
  • we both start at the same spot, within 100 range of each other.
  • If I can make it to the other southern tower, I win. If you manage to dismount me and catch up, you win.
  • use any class except soulbeast

sound good?

*I say "dismount and catch up" because I don't think it counts if you dismount with condi, but the other player is 5000 units away from you by the time they actually are dismounted. Then they just cleanse to break combat and remount.

We have to be careful here. If Anet's intention is exactly what has been delivered, then there isn't anything 'good' or 'bad' state. It's what is intended. If it's not exact, we know Anet will change it with hopes it's closer to what they intended. What we think as players is 'good' or 'bad' is completely irrelevant, because we don't know the intentions, or if we do, they are so vague and open to interpretation in most cases.

For all we know, in that scenario, Anet is sitting there and saying "Yes, exactly, that's what we want mounts to do for players" and it's not an unreasonable thing they would think that, given the way the mount is designed and what is necessary for players to interact with it.

Completely speculation here but ... I don't think Anet wants people to have 1 vs. 1 or 1 vs X encounters in transit in WvW. I can only guess it's because it's related to the spirit or theme of what WvW is about.

If what is intended is kitten design from a open world PvP game viewpoint then it is still kitten even though intended?

Spirit or theme? WvW is literally a sanbox mode where winning doesn't get you jack, heck, it used to give nothing and only cost a long time ago.

Why would they not want that? Any MMO open world PvP mode has it, also, there is a reason there are smaller objectives to take too, i am sure Anet didn't intend camps to be taken by 40 people. You can also have both playstyles be viable, like before.

I am sure the spirit of WvW is player versus player combat, no doubt about that.

Again, you are imposing your own ideas of what WvW should be, not taking the observer seat and seeing what Anet is making it. Why would Anet not want that? Like I said, I've guessed why I think they don't want that. Ultimately, it has something to do with business and making the game mode more appealing to more people at the expense of the few.

As ANet has announced their plans to add a skill to dismount other players to the warclaw, I think it's safe to say that their intention was not to allow the current degree of freedom to players wandering the battlegrounds of WvW.

I'm a solo roamer and I really love the warclaw, but I look forward to this dismount skill. While I don't mind the way things are currently (I'm not particularly upset about not being able to fight those players who don't want to fight!), I also see no reason why players need to be virtually immune to being pulled into combat in WvW. It seems to me that for zerglings rushing back to their zerg, increased movement speed is enough of a boon on its own. It seems to me that a dismount skill brings with it more positives than negatives.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

It is a sandbox mode, you
can
do whatever you want, there is no reward for winning either, i don't like PvP because i play solo, i also don't like objective-based gameplay when playing solo. I play MOBA's for that.

There is a specific set of rules to this game mode, it is NOT a sandbox. Sandbox games are large scale maps where you can go anywhere and do almost anything. GTA, Watch Dogs, Red Dead Redemption are sandbox games. WvW is an objective based PvPvE war mode. I think the closest example of WvW is more like WoW's Battlegrounds than a sandbox game.

I've done PvP Solo.... but if you hate it's because you hate losing more so than the fights (which also tells us more of why you hate mounts in WvW).

Sorry, it's gonna sound harsh, but if you can't adapt to something being added to the game... maybe it's time to move on? Or at least take a break for a while.

There are no rules, you aren't forced to participate in any specific way.

That doesn't make sense. Clearly, Anet thinks otherwise ... they made some changes that have a SIGNIFICANT impact on how you participate. Otherwise you wouldn't be complaining now would you?

But nothing is forced still, these changes also came after 6 years showing that this is just a cashgrab to sell skins to people and get casuals in, it isn't about the gamemode itself but an abrubt decission to bring in more casuals to sell shit to.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Anput.4620 said:This already tells me you have zero knowledge on how DE works because that is not how you oneshot someone, a DE tried that to me the other day and i killed them 2 times, third time they gave up and i let them run away. DE's aren't hard to kill or catch, DD's are. Please show me a rifle DE oneshotting someone with a single ability from 1500 range without prior setup/malice gain.

Which has nothing to do with the thread mind you ...

It does, because you tell me these DE's oneshot you, even though you are a PvE player that has only recently started posting in these forums, you don't know jack yet claim every class can just oneshot you from stealth. Last time a DE hit my weaver it hit me for 50% of my HP and i condid them to death.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:As ANet has announced their plans to add a skill to dismount other players to the warclaw, I think it's safe to say that their intention was not to allow the current degree of freedom to players wandering the battlegrounds of WvW.

I'm a solo roamer and I really love the warclaw, but I look forward to this dismount skill. While I don't mind the way things are currently (I'm not particularly upset about not being able to fight those players who don't want to fight!), I also see no reason why players need to be virtually immune to being pulled into combat in WvW. It seems to me that for zerglings rushing back to their zerg, increased movement speed is enough of a boon on its own. It seems to me that a dismount skill brings with it more positives than negatives.

I'm not against any dismount skill ... I just don't think what was happening prior to the introduction of the mount is appropriate.

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@Anput.4620 said:

@Anput.4620 said:This already tells me you have zero knowledge on how DE works because that is not how you oneshot someone, a DE tried that to me the other day and i killed them 2 times, third time they gave up and i let them run away. DE's aren't hard to kill or catch, DD's are. Please show me a rifle DE oneshotting someone with a single ability from 1500 range without prior setup/malice gain.

Which has nothing to do with the thread mind you ...

It does, because you tell me these DE's oneshot you, even though you are a PvE player that has only recently started posting in these forums, you don't know jack yet claim every class can just oneshot you from stealth. Last time a DE hit my weaver it hit me for 50% of my HP and i condid them to death.

The thread has nothing to do with DE skills in WVW and I never claimed every class can onshot you from stealth. That link I posted was exposing your bias. It's about you complaining that Anet is directing you out of a certain style of play. Jeez, you don't even know what your thread is about.

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@Anput.4620 said:

These people weren't sick of the game, they played it everyday and had fun, i haven't seen a roamer that focuses on fights that likes the mount yet.

Then that's their problem, WvW isn't just about fights, as much as you want it to be. WvW is lots of things, PvP... with PvE elements, tactical scouting. Small scale fights might be fun for you but in the grand scheme of WvW, pretty irrelevent.

No, but you are trying to say all roamers hate mounts and I told you you were wrong

I said fight focused roamers. I am not talking about the core rangers spamming 1 vs a camp.

Can you name 1 good open world PvP game with a mechanic like this? For example, the only BR game i know with mounts instadismounts you when hit, the mount has zero evades and a cast time.

I don't think most open world PvP games even have mounts, agressing is also always rewarded.

WvW is a sandbox mode, winning gives nothing. Restricting what people can and can't do is just bad. Why does it seem like the pro mount people just want to player vs door? The GvG blob people also don't use mounts in their fights.

It's not a sandbox mode, as you can't do anything you want. This isn't GTA online. Also, fight focused roamers, no wonder you aren't having fun.... if that's all you do then what's the point of WvW for you, could just play PvP (since while objective based has TONS of fights)

Battle Royale games and WvW are two different genres, using one as an example over the other doesn't help your case.

It is a sandbox mode, you
can
do whatever you want, there is no reward for winning either, i don't like PvP because i play solo, i also don't like objective-based gameplay when playing solo. I play MOBA's for that.

I can open a locked box with a sledgehammer, but that doesn't mean there's not an easier way to do it.

@"coro.3176" said:I propose a challenge to anyone who thinks dismounts are in a good state right now:
  • we both start mounted outside a southern tower in one of the borderlands
  • we both start at the same spot, within 100 range of each other.
  • If I can make it to the other southern tower, I win. If you manage to dismount me and catch up, you win.
  • use any class except soulbeast

sound good?

*I say "dismount and catch up" because I don't think it counts if you dismount with condi, but the other player is 5000 units away from you by the time they actually are dismounted. Then they just cleanse to break combat and remount.

We have to be careful here. If Anet's intention is exactly what has been delivered, then there isn't anything 'good' or 'bad' state. It's what is intended. If it's not exact, we know Anet will change it with hopes it's closer to what they intended. What we think as players is 'good' or 'bad' is completely irrelevant, because we don't know the intentions, or if we do, they are so vague and open to interpretation in most cases.

For all we know, in that scenario, Anet is sitting there and saying "Yes, exactly, that's what we want mounts to do for players" and it's not an unreasonable thing they would think that, given the way the mount is designed and what is necessary for players to interact with it.

Completely speculation here but ... I don't think Anet wants people to have 1 vs. 1 or 1 vs X encounters in transit in WvW. I can only guess it's because it's related to the spirit or theme of what WvW is about.

If what is intended is kitten design from a open world PvP game viewpoint then it is still kitten even though intended?

Spirit or theme? WvW is literally a sanbox mode where winning doesn't get you jack, heck, it used to give nothing and only cost a long time ago.

Why would they not want that? Any MMO open world PvP mode has it, also, there is a reason there are smaller objectives to take too, i am sure Anet didn't intend camps to be taken by 40 people. You can also have both playstyles be viable, like before.

I am sure the spirit of WvW is player versus player combat, no doubt about that.

Unpopular opinion; WvW is about capturing and holding objectives. It's literally the entire point of the mode, and servers are ranked on their ability to do just that. Yes, there's a big PvP aspect, but if you ignore objectives entirely you're quite frankly doing it wrong.

Just like MOBA's are about taking objectives and defeating the enemies base, but what do people play those games for? The PvP or because they like to aim at a objective and attack it a la PvD?

Pretty sure I won't make many friends in any MOBA if I play a jungler and just chase after kills like an idiot and ignore my team's progress in the lanes. The objectives might be a means to an end to you, but they are what both games are built around, as neither GW2 or MOBA's are battle royale games.

In MOBA's i can do the objectives WHILE being a jungler chasing around kills all game too! That is why i like those. I could take camps and sentries while also doing the chasing and dwindling reinforcements before, now i can't. If i "go and look" for PvP at said objectives i just get instadowned by a group of 10.

Well, it sounds like you need better tactics or escapes then really. Before the patch I was playing a tanky S/P acro deadeye, that build was hit hard by the combo of the rifle stealth nerf and mounts since now everything can escape before I can do decent damage and I don't have the stealth or evades necessary to survive focus anymore. I changed builds back to my condi build from HoT as it allows me to dismount players reliably and it copes with outnumbered fights much better in the present state of the game, and I carried on playing more or less the same way as before.

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Anput.4620

Anput.4620

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@Karnasis.6892 said:

@"Anput.4620" said:

Why would i hate losing? Why do you assume every roamer is bad? You are saying that what i should do is run into a group of 10 people and die? What do you even expect here? Please elaborate on what this is supposed to mean. I like to run around on my greatsword warrior and get some kills, and now that i can't do that anymore i hate losing? What? Are you telling me that anyone that doesn't run into 5-10 players to get a fight that way is bad and just hates losing?

No no, you get me all wrong. I don't assume every roamer is bad... after our conversations today I assume YOU are bad at roaming. I don't expect you to run into a zerg, but you are looking for ONLY fights, which makes you a bad roamer. A GOOD roamer should also hit objectives, possibly do some basic scouting for zergs, maybe kill a person or two or be a general nuisance to the opposing enemies. Mounts wouldn't really effect you that much if you did those things. But instead you choose to not adapt to the new style of gameplay and instead insist we nerf a mount to the ground so you can get a few more kills.

I gave you an option to get all the fights you want, but you said it's because you would be solo in the pvp maps. I've played solo in pvp, it's not as bad as you think. However I INFERRED that you don't like solo queuing in pvp becuase you hate losing, otherwise what would be the problem?

I care about skillful PvP, not pressing 1 vs a door or some mobs. Tell me, what do i gain for being a "good" roamer? I ment that i like solo smallscale fights, i don't care for teamfights in MMO's, same reason i hated WoW bg's but like 2v2 arena and world PvP.

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Karnasis.6892

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

As ANet has announced their plans to add a skill to dismount other players to the warclaw, I think it's safe to say that their intention was not to allow the current degree of freedom to players wandering the battlegrounds of WvW.

I'm a solo roamer and I really love the warclaw, but I look forward to this dismount skill. While I don't mind the way things are currently (I'm not particularly upset about not being able to fight those players who don't want to fight!), I also see no reason why players need to be virtually immune to being pulled into combat in WvW. It seems to me that for zerglings rushing back to their zerg, increased movement speed is enough of a boon on its own. It seems to me that a dismount skill brings with it more positives than negatives.

I've come around on the dismount skill, but 1200 range is ludicrous. 600... or maybe 800 at most would be more ideal. At least then if you are a melee then you aren't at a huge disadvantage when dismounted vs ranged.

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