Scourge doesn't need nerfing.

[NotoriousNaru.1705]

OP titles his post "scourge doesn't need nerfing" then says it needs a cast time on shade skills. You realise turning an instant cast skill to a casted skill with a tell is a nerf right? But yea for the most part you're right either anet keeps the instant cast aspect of the shade skills and tones down the damage they do, or they put a cast time on said skills and leave the damage as is.

Also anet if you see this path of corruption 100% needs an icd. You guys clearly didn't fully think it through when you put a 4s 2 condi cleanse and left path of corruption without an icd. Corrupting 2 boons every 4s is aids. There is no way the balance team intended for that. It was never an issue with reaper because the 2 skill had a longer cooldown and a clear animation, with scourge its has 0 tell and a smart non silver tier scourge will spam that skill over and over with barely any life force cost and rip every single boon. This trait alone makes it so annoying to play any class that is boon dependent.

[powerbits.6235]

You may think I'm a newbe for posting here, but that's not the case and we should be realistic. I am talking in wvw. I can attack a scourge on my thief, all it needs to do is push one button and I die. I can not even hit for a quarter of its health because the health regenerates so fast that its impossible to blast down, but it kills me with one burst. Scourge being the strongest class on its own is not good for other players, I can not beat it on my warrior or my thief. I have every cleanse imaginable on my warrior and the scourge just runs in circles, or follows me with a huge circle and I most certainly die. The warrior full counter does not work when condi hits it, since when was conditions not an attack? Once engaged there's no running, cant get away, just die. The class is the easiest to play and its the strongest. I can beat all classes but the scourge. Theres better players sure, but the build and the burst is carrying this game into a place that demands bad game play. Zergs only pirate ship also now, therefore a lot of commanders are getting stressed because they just don't get it, and there is more animosity than ever in the servers. The reason is the smart players want to play their classes but are met with unrealistic balance. And the dumber players get on a scourge and rattle off that they are the best ever. ANET stated that there is a nerf coming, but it will not be enough i am certain, they want their money for condition gear and how better to get it than make it where any player can pawn another by buying into one easy class. Before, it was the Mesmer that was arguably the most op once learned while roaming, but at least it took dedication and sacrifice to learn the hard a/f class. ANET lied when they said that they were making classes that were not necessarily better, that they were just giving more options. The only hot/beta class that stayed remotely relivant is the daredevil. I absolutely do not want to play scourge, but that's what it takes to be op. Maybe it is time to leave...

[Aomine.5012]

Here're the issues.

None of the F1~F5 have cast time yet they do too much.The trait that benefit Shroud skills benefit Shades too, but Shroud skills are telegraphic and have a cast time, while Shade has none .A 1 sec cast time on Shade F2~F5 should be suffice.

Summoning a shade shouldn't instantly trigger every trait procs of Shroud 1.F5 procing everything 5 times is abit too much.Also fix the triple procs of newly summoned Shade triggering f5 multiple times.Trail of Anguish looks like Slick Shoes 2.0

Fixing those could make Scourge not so op while not gutted it completely. (Overall dps is similar but it becomes more telegraphic)

[powerbits.6235]

No one should have a 15k burst with one button, period. What happened to if your do a lot of damage, you take it too? If I can be one hit, so should the class that one hit me. Or it should be much slower so if I'm more skilled I can out maneuver it. As it stands, even in zergs guardians melt. The guard can not guard anything. I roam and pvp with warrior and thief, I also frontline guardian. I don't even like the rest of the game, but I'm going to say that it is as of now even wvw/pvp are no fun at all.

[Egorum.9506]

@ToPNoP.2493 said:No one should have a 15k burst with one button, period. What happened to if your do a lot of damage, you take it too? If I can be one hit, so should the class that one hit me. Or it should be much slower so if I'm more skilled I can out maneuver it. As it stands, even in zergs guardians melt. The guard can not guard anything. I roam and pvp with warrior and thief, I also frontline guardian. I don't even like the rest of the game, but I'm going to say that it is as of now even wvw/pvp are no fun at all.

Since when does scourge have a 15k damage button? If you stand in the shade for 7 full seconds eating the f5 without stunning, dodging, blinding, blocking or going invuln- you honestly deserve to get beaten lol.

Now 15k backstabs, deaths judgement, kill shot, and literally every rampage skill, those are easy to dodge! And if you can avoid the damage, surely you can chase....them.....down? Alright, maybe not. Stun them!.... oh wait, can't do that either. Soft CC! oh right, resistance or clear on dodge.

Well shit! This sure looks like a l2p issue to me!

[powerbits.6235]

So you support pirate ship, deny frontline their purpose, and do not want your scourge touched. I get it, really I do. As far as that 15k burst is concerned, I sent clips to anet. The power burst is real, and please try to imagine it used while in a zerg. How many does it hit? So before you get up in arms about the instant damage your condi build does, please think outside of your box and understand where the complaint truly stems from, kitten.

[Bear.7316]

Biggest problem impo is the full-point coverage. They dominate points. A team with 2 scourge are likely to win because most can't even fight on point alongside the necro.

[Egorum.9506]

@ToPNoP.2493 said:So you support pirate ship, deny frontline their purpose, and do not want your scourge touched. I get it, really I do. As far as that 15k burst is concerned, I sent clips to anet. The power burst is real, and please try to imagine it used while in a zerg. How many does it hit? So before you get up in arms about the instant damage your condi build does, please think outside of your box and understand where the complaint truly stems from, kitten.

This is the pvp forum, the wvw forum is underneath it. I agree completely about wvw, it's way too strong in a zerg. In spvp though, it's competitive but not insane. Scourge has 1 stab and no defensive CDs, CC and burst=collect your win.

[mrauls.6519]

The lack of telegraph... You got to be kidding me. Nerf that shit

[Daishi.6027]

It's not a popular opinion but like many things I find the problem lies in the dominant game type, not the class.

It's not hard to focus scourge in a team fight.and it's not hard to kill a scourge 1v1. (with a moderate amount of range damage)

But when you allow them to cover the entire objective, and when teams can possibly take more than one, or peel with another problematic apex class/build, along with the innate problems of condi; you're going to have problems.

[czerwoni.9563]

@raul.7859 said:spellbreaker does

omg dude shhhhhhh if they nerf that they will nerf us

[Vagrant.7206]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:Having just played against a couple of scourges... that class is absolutely OP. It is worse than the first incarnation of DH. I does far too much damage and stacks far too many condis without any apparent effort on the part of the Scourge.. what's more it's tanky on top. This is a build that practically auto wins and that's not right in any game mode.

If Mesmer had anything like that level of tank or damage it'd be hotfix nerfed. Oh wait.. it was, before we even got to try it.

This is why I was confused when they ninja nerfed holosmith -- with how broken scourge and spellbreaker were, I was flabbergasted that they left other classes flapping in the breeze.

@Elie Etherion.1725 said:What about make the shades killable?

Ever played a turret engi? It's completely unusable because of turret's vulnerability to AoE and condis. If the shades were killable, scourge would be basically useless in PvP. This is just an advanced form of the turret engi, way more dangerous.

What needs to happen IMO are delays on skill activation for the shades -- necro hits the F skill, and it pulses on themselves, but the pulse on the shade should be delayed. This would give people an opportunity for counterplay or to avoid the worst damage. It also makes sense -- when I see that big ol' skull or the necro turning black, my response is to dodge. Right now, that does nothing, but it might be useful if the scourge is attempting to range with their shades.

[zealex.9410]

Well scourge needs its buggy shades fixed first of all secondly when you pop the shades whith f skill it feels like the aoe area grows. Which idk if its intented since the ring stay the same. Other than that idk scourge seems fine.

[Abelisk.4527]

I don't get why Renegade gets way more expensive "killable illusions" while Necro gets these unkillable shades of doom that decimate everything.

[feetpicenjoyer.6418]

@Abelisk.4527 said:I don't get why Renegade gets way more expensive "killable illusions" while Necro gets these unkillable shades of doom that decimate everything.

And it triggers both around the shade and the player. Ventari revs for example either only trigegr raits around the rev or the skills around the tablet, they can't defend them selves AND support others at the same time unless they stack. Idk how scourge just bypasses any design choices they made in the past.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

Don't really see the issue with scourge. Best way to tackle them is focusing your efforts on them. I find Rangers and deadeyes are a great counter by keeping that pressure from far away until they die. And let's be honest chances are you have a scourge on your team as well. So it's a matter of who's better at the class, you or them. Scourges and spellbreakers lose matches all the time and just because you have the class stacked never guarantees a victory. The more you know.

[czerwoni.9563]

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:Don't really see the issue with scourge. Best way to tackle them is focusing your efforts on them. I find Rangers and deadeyes are a great counter by keeping that pressure from far away until they die. And let's be honest chances are you have a scourge on your team as well. So it's a matter of who's better at the class, you or them. Scourges and spellbreakers lose matches all the time and just because you have the class stacked never guarantees a victory. The more you know.

deadeye is great if they are able to kite while kneeling, by timing the rolls and shadow step. my friend is really good at that we 1v1 in wvw when we can and its interesting to see how the classes handle other classes

[Dreams.3128]

@Kiritodatrth.1548 said:^^^ why??? DPS is not so different for Weaver? Or I guess not... I still see DH and Firebrand also in the TOP, so nerfs are also coming also for them? Finally Neccro can be accepted in raids and just because of it you say it will be nerfed?

Look... I don't like Scourge mechanics either... I don't agree on how it was developed or the mechanics... but The nerfs crying is really nonsense...

The point is that necros were completely useless other than in low lvl pvp, or in low content PVE (where they performed amazing)... now they have a suitable build...If that's the case, weaver has to be nerfed, also condi mesmer, and DH, and tempest,, cause all of them performed better than necros for 7 years...

There is 0 base or any argument here

HUH????You are REALLy trying to pull Weaver into this diabocle???Weaver is /only/ shining in PVEIt is god awful in PVP/WvWEven I still play auramancer in PVP because the sheer thought of not having some sort of healing through this Condi mess absolutely frightens me.

Try being a class that is NOT only squishy, but can hardly take a power hit. But everyone is still wants to be traumatized by cele ele and still think ele is someone God in PVP.

Fun fact: It's not.

Uninstall right now if you think Weaver somehow needs a Nerf just because Anet keeps overtuning your class. The gall for you to even say that Weaver needs a Nerf just..smh. This community is on the mean pipe right now.

[Arcaedus.7290]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Hex.2579 said:i'd like a different color for f2-f5 too. cuz right now it's even hard for the caster to know which skill is already activated without looking at the cd.F5 causes the scourge's character model to turn black when it is active.F4 causes giant black skeletons to shoot out of the shades.F2 and F3 are largely indistinguishable, but those two are the "throwaway" F skills that are typically used just to set off Shade autos.

I would like to see Sand Shades color coded by team, because right now if there is a scourge on both teams is can get difficult to tell which shade is on your team.

This video Crinn linked is exactly why all of this "hurrrr l2p, don't stand in the sand shades and you'll be fine" talk is complete nonsense. The scourge burst is place sand shade, cast f2 and f3 (instant cast), then feast of corruption in scepter. This burst is indeed locked behind a cast time but essentially doesn't have an animation at any point that is distinguishable from other necromancer/scourge skills. Also, you don't even have to stand in the shade to eat this burst. If a scourge simply casts the shade on top of you, you eat the entire thing (maybe not feast if you dodge immediately and scourge misses).

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Hex.2579 said:i'd like a different color for f2-f5 too. cuz right now it's even hard for the caster to know which skill is already activated without looking at the cd.F5 causes the scourge's character model to turn black when it is active.F4 causes giant black skeletons to shoot out of the shades.F2 and F3 are largely indistinguishable, but those two are the "throwaway" F skills that are typically used just to set off Shade autos.

I would like to see Sand Shades color coded by team, because right now if there is a scourge on both teams is can get difficult to tell which shade is on your team.

This video Crinn linked is exactly why all of this "hurrrr l2p, don't stand in the sand shades and you'll be fine" talk is complete nonsense. The scourge burst is place sand shade, cast f2 and f3 (instant cast), then feast of corruption in scepter. This burst is indeed locked behind a cast time but essentially doesn't have an animation at any point that is distinguishable from other necromancer/scourge skills. Also, you don't even have to stand in the shade to eat this burst. If a scourge simply casts the shade on top of you, you eat the entire thing (maybe not feast if you dodge immediately and scourge misses).

Oh no! You get hit with 3 stacks of short duration Torment (2 seconds base) and Burning(3 seconds base)!

Not exactly deadly, there. Feast of Corruption should be being dodged anyway because it deprives the Necro of life force as well as hitting hard (true with literally any Necro variant, not just Scourge).

Plus, Dhuumfire seems to have a small ICD that doesn't show on the tooltip, so you really only get 1 stack of burning there if it's truly done instantly. With some spacing on F2 and F3, then you get the full 3 stacks.

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:Don't really see the issue with scourge. Best way to tackle them is focusing your efforts on them. I find Rangers and deadeyes are a great counter by keeping that pressure from far away until they die. And let's be honest chances are you have a scourge on your team as well. So it's a matter of who's better at the class, you or them. Scourges and spellbreakers lose matches all the time and just because you have the class stacked never guarantees a victory. The more you know.

If one team has two scourges and the other team has none, the team with the scourges wins every time. It's the only profession that I've noticed that pattern with.

[Rarnark.5623]

The title of your post is misleading considering that adding cast times to instant abilities is inarguably a direct nerf.

[Egorum.9506]

Fun fact, f5 continues to pulse if you move the shade. The best way to burst is to shade f5, f2, feast, move shade to keep up with the now running person. F4 if they go for a heal. Pulsing f5 cripples any condi clearing by reapplying trash after your feast, f2 corrupts boons providing trash coverage like weakness and bleed.

[Hana.8143]

Most boring thing about scourges is :The f** Cripple

Seriously, I’m used to run away a lot in PvP if the fight doesn’t look good. Playing a Weaver.And when you go away a bit to late. The scourge will :1 - puts around 30 sec of cripple on you2 - use his tp to melt you down because you have cd and can’t go out of the shades.

I don’t care about dying in a fight. But when I look at my condibar and see almost everytime this cripple which slowly pass, that pisses me off.Weaver has so many chill skills, and yet I don’t put 30 sec of chill. (And scourge does that with aoe) So why an other class can put so many soft cc ?Both in PvP and in WvW this is way too strong.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

@Unholy Pillager.3791 said:

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:Don't really see the issue with scourge. Best way to tackle them is focusing your efforts on them. I find Rangers and deadeyes are a great counter by keeping that pressure from far away until they die. And let's be honest chances are you have a scourge on your team as well. So it's a matter of who's better at the class, you or them. Scourges and spellbreakers lose matches all the time and just because you have the class stacked never guarantees a victory. The more you know.

If one team has two scourges and the other team has none, the team with the scourges wins every time. It's the only profession that I've noticed that pattern with.

Wrong. I was on a winning team with 2 deadeye 1 spellbreakers, 1 Rev and 1 soulbeast. And we destroyed the other team that had 2 scourges 2 spellbreakers and 1 scrapper. They didn't realize that they where getting sniped and actually accused us of cheating. So sorry.