Perma-Invis Thieves are back

[Turk.5460]

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:well, easy to fix: remove stealth from the game.

What buffs to Thief do you propose as a trade off for removing a huge portion of their mitigation?

Invul, stab, blocks, clones, resistance

So you want Thieves to be...mesmers?

[SoV.5139]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@AsiraasiB.7165 said:This whole post is why this game is dying. Anet sees posts like this, sympathizes and then adheres their cries.

Instead of encouraging ppl to l2p..

With the amount of reveals in this game from traits or utilities, wvw having towers and guards reveals, anet giving pretty much all of thieves weps damage to reveal... I dont understand these threads...

Not to mention thief no longer has traps, so no trapper runes... Meaning they have to use pure initiative to stay invisible.. And somehow damage you, with no more initiative btw... And then use more initiative to stay invisible.. And not get revealed by u or tower or guards etc...Plz explain

If you don't understand why invisibility is OP in open world type PvP then it is you that needs to learn to play. It is the same in pretty much every game, even ones that have far more counters than in GW2.

When I play ESO and want ez-mode when I go roaming, you know what two classes I play, magsorc because mobility like stealth is OP in these game modes or I play nightblade because of stealth.

And to put GW2's pitiful reveal in perspective, in ESO every single class has access to reveal skills that can simply be slotted in on your bar (in any build if you want), then AOE skills reveal you (in game where there are no cooldowns so AOE can be spammed) and then detect pots on top of that. And guess what it is still faceroll OP even then, I can do things on my nightblade that I could only dream of on my necro, DK, etc.

Stealth (at least the typical full out invis) simply does not work as a balanced mechanic in things like WvW. If I play my thief in WvW and start losing a fight, then the vast majority of the time if I want I can disengage that fight, yet I am not punished for playing poorly, nor is the chap I am fighting rewarded for outplaying me, that is broken.

Yet if I play sPvP and do the same thing, I am punished by losing the capture circle, failing to make use of our 2v1 which then means we are 3v4 the rest of the map, etc, and conversely my opponent is rewarded by the flipside of those things for outplaying me. And that risk vs reward is the basis for balance in a game, which is missing from WvW in so many aspects and that is one of the reasons it why it died 4+ years ago, not because a few players so bad that they think a weak band-aid like reveal is monstrously unfair to stealth in WvW.

Pretty much this.

Along with the fact that giving good stealth and good mobility to the same class is typically a no-no. This is before we even discuss giving them a counter for the counter.

Rangers and engie have good stealth (if they wanted) along with good mobility yet they have the sustain of warriors.

Rangers and Engie do not have the stealth of thief, or the mobility of thief.

Ranger can get close for mobility but needs to blow entire kits while the thief can spam the same ability using init. There are no perma stealth rangers.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@SoV.5139 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@AsiraasiB.7165 said:This whole post is why this game is dying. Anet sees posts like this, sympathizes and then adheres their cries.

Instead of encouraging ppl to l2p..

With the amount of reveals in this game from traits or utilities, wvw having towers and guards reveals, anet giving pretty much all of thieves weps damage to reveal... I dont understand these threads...

Not to mention thief no longer has traps, so no trapper runes... Meaning they have to use pure initiative to stay invisible.. And somehow damage you, with no more initiative btw... And then use more initiative to stay invisible.. And not get revealed by u or tower or guards etc...Plz explain

If you don't understand why invisibility is OP in open world type PvP then it is you that needs to learn to play. It is the same in pretty much every game, even ones that have far more counters than in GW2.

When I play ESO and want ez-mode when I go roaming, you know what two classes I play, magsorc because mobility like stealth is OP in these game modes or I play nightblade because of stealth.

And to put GW2's pitiful reveal in perspective, in ESO every single class has access to reveal skills that can simply be slotted in on your bar (in any build if you want), then AOE skills reveal you (in game where there are no cooldowns so AOE can be spammed) and then detect pots on top of that. And guess what it is still faceroll OP even then, I can do things on my nightblade that I could only dream of on my necro, DK, etc.

Stealth (at least the typical full out invis) simply does not work as a balanced mechanic in things like WvW. If I play my thief in WvW and start losing a fight, then the vast majority of the time if I want I can disengage that fight, yet I am not punished for playing poorly, nor is the chap I am fighting rewarded for outplaying me, that is broken.

Yet if I play sPvP and do the same thing, I am punished by losing the capture circle, failing to make use of our 2v1 which then means we are 3v4 the rest of the map, etc, and conversely my opponent is rewarded by the flipside of those things for outplaying me. And that risk vs reward is the basis for balance in a game, which is missing from WvW in so many aspects and that is one of the reasons it why it died 4+ years ago, not because a few players so bad that they think a weak band-aid like reveal is monstrously unfair to stealth in WvW.

Pretty much this.

Along with the fact that giving good stealth and good mobility to the same class is typically a no-no. This is before we even discuss giving them a counter for the counter.

Rangers and engie have good stealth (if they wanted) along with good mobility yet they have the sustain of warriors.

Rangers and Engie do not have the stealth of thief, or the mobility of thief.

Ranger can get close for mobility but needs to blow entire kits while the thief can spam the same ability using init. There are no perma stealth rangers.

Engie with rocket boots, rifle, holo leap can easily escape most fights, and or catch up to most including a thief who has (as you just said used ini on short bow) which means 9/10 of the time they have 0 ini left to fight back where as engie still has a full weapon set + holo mode and taking rocket boots doesn't even screw over their build neither. I know this because I have been on both ends.

You're right, no stealth stacking is on par with theif, though that thief build is pure gimmick and are not as common as s/d or condi builds.

[SoV.5139]

@geist.4126 said:

@"Doug.4930" said:

Its clear by this paragraph alone that you haven't played WvW in a while, or you're grasping at straws because thieves are annoying. With mounts now being in the game, these fights (as rare as they are now) usually only occur in camps/towers/sentries. So if the thief decided to be a coward and flee, it usually means that they've given up a tower/camp/sentry or left their teammates in the lurch. It could be argued that stealth in other classes is a bit unbalanced, but one need only look at the population of thieves in WvW to see that they aren't exactly meta in WvW at the moment. So many classes can now do the job a thief can do but better. Why run a deadeye when you can run a longbow soulbeast that does more damage and is uncatchable. Why run a daredevil "brawler" spec when you can run a holo smith? And so on.

Try actually roaming with a thief in WvW at the moment. I'm not calling for buffs or anything because I understand my own bias, but there's a reason thief is seeing much less play than some of the other elite specs. Because why bother hamstringing yourself by having to avoid towers and sentries when you can just run any other class and have no issues.

Stop the stupid derailing with the mount argument.A typical fight vs. thieves is:I'm able to pressure him -> he runs (way higher mobility) and resets or stealthes and resets -> the fight starts new (I basically one the first encounter for nothing) -> his cooldowns mostly are way lower than mine because "Energy" is a better resource than any in this game. If I pressure him again the same cycle starts from a new.If he sees that he cannot win while I run after him he is on his mount way faster than me, because his combat ends in the first seconds he enters stealth - my mount skill is still not usable to that point.And no. This fights are all over the map and no #2 thieves are still on the top3 roaming builds. At least on EU tier 1, tier 3 and tier 5 (where I play on a daily basis)

Yeah a major part of the issue in 1v1s is thief losing = escape, while other builds losing = character death + respawn. A player could be so much better on another build that they would win 9 out of every 10 1v1 fights, but that just means the thief needs t reset the fight 10 times on average until they get to the 1 in 10 occurrence where they win.

Its the least disappointing class to learn how to play as long as you learn the escape kit first for any build, as this means dying much MUCH less than you do learning anything else.

[Doug.4930]

@SoV.5139 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@AsiraasiB.7165 said:This whole post is why this game is dying. Anet sees posts like this, sympathizes and then adheres their cries.

Instead of encouraging ppl to l2p..

With the amount of reveals in this game from traits or utilities, wvw having towers and guards reveals, anet giving pretty much all of thieves weps damage to reveal... I dont understand these threads...

Not to mention thief no longer has traps, so no trapper runes... Meaning they have to use pure initiative to stay invisible.. And somehow damage you, with no more initiative btw... And then use more initiative to stay invisible.. And not get revealed by u or tower or guards etc...Plz explain

If you don't understand why invisibility is OP in open world type PvP then it is you that needs to learn to play. It is the same in pretty much every game, even ones that have far more counters than in GW2.

When I play ESO and want ez-mode when I go roaming, you know what two classes I play, magsorc because mobility like stealth is OP in these game modes or I play nightblade because of stealth.

And to put GW2's pitiful reveal in perspective, in ESO every single class has access to reveal skills that can simply be slotted in on your bar (in any build if you want), then AOE skills reveal you (in game where there are no cooldowns so AOE can be spammed) and then detect pots on top of that. And guess what it is still faceroll OP even then, I can do things on my nightblade that I could only dream of on my necro, DK, etc.

Stealth (at least the typical full out invis) simply does not work as a balanced mechanic in things like WvW. If I play my thief in WvW and start losing a fight, then the vast majority of the time if I want I can disengage that fight, yet I am not punished for playing poorly, nor is the chap I am fighting rewarded for outplaying me, that is broken.

Yet if I play sPvP and do the same thing, I am punished by losing the capture circle, failing to make use of our 2v1 which then means we are 3v4 the rest of the map, etc, and conversely my opponent is rewarded by the flipside of those things for outplaying me. And that risk vs reward is the basis for balance in a game, which is missing from WvW in so many aspects and that is one of the reasons it why it died 4+ years ago, not because a few players so bad that they think a weak band-aid like reveal is monstrously unfair to stealth in WvW.

Pretty much this.

Along with the fact that giving good stealth and good mobility to the same class is typically a no-no. This is before we even discuss giving them a counter for the counter.

Rangers and engie have good stealth (if they wanted) along with good mobility yet they have the sustain of warriors.

Rangers and Engie do not have the stealth of thief, or the mobility of thief.

This must be why everybody is running a thief in WvW and why rangers and engie's are so rare.

Ranger can get close for mobility but needs to blow entire kits while the thief can spam the same ability using init. There are no perma stealth rangers.

Very true, its a proven fact that blowing all your init on runaway skills doesn't leave you vulnerable at all. Because having no init left is nothing like having no cooldowns. Also we should buff rangers so they do they have perma stealth, because rangers are really lacking in the sustain department at the moment.

EDIT: This was satire.

[SoV.5139]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@AsiraasiB.7165 said:This whole post is why this game is dying. Anet sees posts like this, sympathizes and then adheres their cries.

Instead of encouraging ppl to l2p..

With the amount of reveals in this game from traits or utilities, wvw having towers and guards reveals, anet giving pretty much all of thieves weps damage to reveal... I dont understand these threads...

Not to mention thief no longer has traps, so no trapper runes... Meaning they have to use pure initiative to stay invisible.. And somehow damage you, with no more initiative btw... And then use more initiative to stay invisible.. And not get revealed by u or tower or guards etc...Plz explain

If you don't understand why invisibility is OP in open world type PvP then it is you that needs to learn to play. It is the same in pretty much every game, even ones that have far more counters than in GW2.

When I play ESO and want ez-mode when I go roaming, you know what two classes I play, magsorc because mobility like stealth is OP in these game modes or I play nightblade because of stealth.

And to put GW2's pitiful reveal in perspective, in ESO every single class has access to reveal skills that can simply be slotted in on your bar (in any build if you want), then AOE skills reveal you (in game where there are no cooldowns so AOE can be spammed) and then detect pots on top of that. And guess what it is still faceroll OP even then, I can do things on my nightblade that I could only dream of on my necro, DK, etc.

Stealth (at least the typical full out invis) simply does not work as a balanced mechanic in things like WvW. If I play my thief in WvW and start losing a fight, then the vast majority of the time if I want I can disengage that fight, yet I am not punished for playing poorly, nor is the chap I am fighting rewarded for outplaying me, that is broken.

Yet if I play sPvP and do the same thing, I am punished by losing the capture circle, failing to make use of our 2v1 which then means we are 3v4 the rest of the map, etc, and conversely my opponent is rewarded by the flipside of those things for outplaying me. And that risk vs reward is the basis for balance in a game, which is missing from WvW in so many aspects and that is one of the reasons it why it died 4+ years ago, not because a few players so bad that they think a weak band-aid like reveal is monstrously unfair to stealth in WvW.

Pretty much this.

Along with the fact that giving good stealth and good mobility to the same class is typically a no-no. This is before we even discuss giving them a counter for the counter.

Rangers and engie have good stealth (if they wanted) along with good mobility yet they have the sustain of warriors.

Rangers and Engie do not have the stealth of thief, or the mobility of thief.

Ranger can get close for mobility but needs to blow entire kits while the thief can spam the same ability using init. There are no perma stealth rangers.

Engie with rocket boots, rifle, holo leap can easily escape most fights, and or catch up to most including a thief who has (as you just said used ini on short bow) which means 9/10 of the time they have 0 ini left to fight back where as engie still has a full weapon set + holo mode and taking rocket boots doesn't even screw over their build neither. I know this because I have been on both ends.

You're right, no stealth stacking is on par with theif, though that thief build is pure gimmick and are not as common as s/d or condi builds.

I play both classes as well:If the desire is to just escape both can do it.If the desire is to reset the fight and apply more pressure, thief is miles ahead as init is back to full long before that entire kit you just blew to escape on the engi is off CD.

[SoV.5139]

@Doug.4930 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@AsiraasiB.7165 said:This whole post is why this game is dying. Anet sees posts like this, sympathizes and then adheres their cries.

Instead of encouraging ppl to l2p..

With the amount of reveals in this game from traits or utilities, wvw having towers and guards reveals, anet giving pretty much all of thieves weps damage to reveal... I dont understand these threads...

Not to mention thief no longer has traps, so no trapper runes... Meaning they have to use pure initiative to stay invisible.. And somehow damage you, with no more initiative btw... And then use more initiative to stay invisible.. And not get revealed by u or tower or guards etc...Plz explain

If you don't understand why invisibility is OP in open world type PvP then it is you that needs to learn to play. It is the same in pretty much every game, even ones that have far more counters than in GW2.

When I play ESO and want ez-mode when I go roaming, you know what two classes I play, magsorc because mobility like stealth is OP in these game modes or I play nightblade because of stealth.

And to put GW2's pitiful reveal in perspective, in ESO every single class has access to reveal skills that can simply be slotted in on your bar (in any build if you want), then AOE skills reveal you (in game where there are no cooldowns so AOE can be spammed) and then detect pots on top of that. And guess what it is still faceroll OP even then, I can do things on my nightblade that I could only dream of on my necro, DK, etc.

Stealth (at least the typical full out invis) simply does not work as a balanced mechanic in things like WvW. If I play my thief in WvW and start losing a fight, then the vast majority of the time if I want I can disengage that fight, yet I am not punished for playing poorly, nor is the chap I am fighting rewarded for outplaying me, that is broken.

Yet if I play sPvP and do the same thing, I am punished by losing the capture circle, failing to make use of our 2v1 which then means we are 3v4 the rest of the map, etc, and conversely my opponent is rewarded by the flipside of those things for outplaying me. And that risk vs reward is the basis for balance in a game, which is missing from WvW in so many aspects and that is one of the reasons it why it died 4+ years ago, not because a few players so bad that they think a weak band-aid like reveal is monstrously unfair to stealth in WvW.

Pretty much this.

Along with the fact that giving good stealth and good mobility to the same class is typically a no-no. This is before we even discuss giving them a counter for the counter.

Rangers and engie have good stealth (if they wanted) along with good mobility yet they have the sustain of warriors.

Rangers and Engie do not have the stealth of thief, or the mobility of thief.

This must be why everybody is running a thief in WvW and why rangers and engie's are so rare.

Ranger can get close for mobility but needs to blow entire kits while the thief can spam the same ability using init. There are no perma stealth rangers.

Very true, its a proven fact that blowing all your init on runaway skills doesn't leave you vulnerable at all. Because having no init left is nothing like having now cooldowns.

Two things can be powerful for two different reasons.

Example: Where do you think all those meme rangers graduated to after their toy got shaved down a bit eh? To another meme of course - likely the one they were playing before meme SB was a thing, and still trot out of the stable for no-down-state weeks.

Resetting fights on init is miles ahead of resetting fights using CDs, as that init will be back to full long before that escape kit on other classes (using multiple util abilities as well) is off CD

[DemonSeed.3528]

@Turk.5460 said:So you want Thieves to be...mesmers?I wasn't serious, but that was funny

[Doug.4930]

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@"AsiraasiB.7165" said:This whole post is why this game is dying. Anet sees posts like this, sympathizes and then adheres their cries.

Instead of encouraging ppl to l2p..

With the amount of reveals in this game from traits or utilities, wvw having towers and guards reveals, anet giving pretty much all of thieves weps damage to reveal... I dont understand these threads...

Not to mention thief no longer has traps, so no trapper runes... Meaning they have to use pure initiative to stay invisible.. And somehow damage you, with no more initiative btw... And then use more initiative to stay invisible.. And not get revealed by u or tower or guards etc...Plz explain

Stealth (at least the typical full out invis) simply does not work as a balanced mechanic in things like WvW. If I play my thief in WvW and start losing a fight, then the vast majority of the time if I want I can disengage that fight, yet I am not punished for playing poorly, nor is the chap I am fighting rewarded for outplaying me, that is busted.

Its clear by this paragraph alone that you haven't played WvW in a while, or you're grasping at straws because thieves are annoying. With mounts now being in the game, these fights (as rare as they are now) usually only occur in camps/towers/sentries. So if the thief decided to be a coward and flee, it usually means that they've given up a tower/camp/sentry or left their teammates in the lurch. It could be argued that stealth in other classes is a bit unbalanced, but one need only look at the population of thieves in WvW to see that they aren't exactly meta in WvW at the moment. So many classes can now do the job a thief can do but better. Why run a deadeye when you can run a longbow soulbeast that does more damage and is uncatchable. Why run a daredevil "brawler" spec when you can run a holo smith? And so on.

Try actually roaming with a thief in WvW at the moment. I'm not calling for buffs or anything because I understand my own bias, but there's a reason thief is seeing much less play than some of the other elite specs. Because why bother hamstringing yourself by having to avoid towers and sentries when you can just run any other class and have no issues..

It's clear by the above you have a rather large thief shaped chip on your shoulder.

;)

My post was about stealth as an OP mechanic in WvW and how the only meaningful balance to it is provided in PvP by conquest, which applies to all classes that have access to that, not just thief.

My apologies then, I assumed your post being posted in a thread about thieves would bear some relevance to thieves.

It applies to any build that can abuse it. So for example long ago I sometimes played a silly GS/Staff druid build in WvW that used the trait that lowered your cooldown of the skill first used after weapon swap, so it was pretty much uncatchable and completely broke the concept of risk vs reward. And of course it was not just that trait and being able to abuse ancestral grace / swoop for movement, it was that it had stealth with smokescale and stealth on leaving celestial avatar.

Can't say I ever really had a problem with this build, sure it had insane mobility, but I felt like its ability to win fights and accomplish things in WvW was pretty limited.

Why would I care about sentries or camps in WvW? The game mode does not function in any meaningful way as a competition (see - population/coverage), that is one of the reasons it is dead.

You misunderstand me, when roaming in WvW barely anybody gets of their mount unless they have too now. So as a result, fights only occur around sentries etc. Don't care about the points per say, just that other people do, and usually avoid fights with their mount.

As for the state of thief, now it isn't as faceroll OP as a roamer as it once was, but if you think it is weak or even mediocre as a roamer that says more about you than anything else. Nor does the state of it nor any other class with stealth make a difference, in WvW stealth is a poorly designed OP mechanic whether that is on some broken Holo build or something much weaker.

It sounds like to me that you have an anti thief chip on your shoulder. You wouldn't main a warrior by any chance would you?But no, I think thief is fine where it is, just some of the other classes need to be brought down a peg or two.

In regard to the mounts, putting aside the sheer straw clutching of that, the amusing thing is it has made stealth even more OP in relative terms, because it weakened the other big thing for running off when you are losing or having control over when to engage - high mobility, stealth also makes dismounting people much, much easier.

I've already explained my reasons for bring mounts up. Mounts simply make anything with high mobility more overpowered, because mounts themselves are overpowered.

Oh as for longbow soulbeast, same thing, long range pew-pew damage is much more balanced in PvP where there is much more opportunity to LOS, much more focus on fighting over capture points, etc than the far more open WvW, where players spend most of their time not contesting a capture point, etc

Agree with this, however after the last balance patch they seem much more balanced.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Doug.4930 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@AsiraasiB.7165 said:This whole post is why this game is dying. Anet sees posts like this, sympathizes and then adheres their cries.

Instead of encouraging ppl to l2p..

With the amount of reveals in this game from traits or utilities, wvw having towers and guards reveals, anet giving pretty much all of thieves weps damage to reveal... I dont understand these threads...

Not to mention thief no longer has traps, so no trapper runes... Meaning they have to use pure initiative to stay invisible.. And somehow damage you, with no more initiative btw... And then use more initiative to stay invisible.. And not get revealed by u or tower or guards etc...Plz explain

If you don't understand why invisibility is OP in open world type PvP then it is you that needs to learn to play. It is the same in pretty much every game, even ones that have far more counters than in GW2.

When I play ESO and want ez-mode when I go roaming, you know what two classes I play, magsorc because mobility like stealth is OP in these game modes or I play nightblade because of stealth.

And to put GW2's pitiful reveal in perspective, in ESO every single class has access to reveal skills that can simply be slotted in on your bar (in any build if you want), then AOE skills reveal you (in game where there are no cooldowns so AOE can be spammed) and then detect pots on top of that. And guess what it is still faceroll OP even then, I can do things on my nightblade that I could only dream of on my necro, DK, etc.

Stealth (at least the typical full out invis) simply does not work as a balanced mechanic in things like WvW. If I play my thief in WvW and start losing a fight, then the vast majority of the time if I want I can disengage that fight, yet I am not punished for playing poorly, nor is the chap I am fighting rewarded for outplaying me, that is broken.

Yet if I play sPvP and do the same thing, I am punished by losing the capture circle, failing to make use of our 2v1 which then means we are 3v4 the rest of the map, etc, and conversely my opponent is rewarded by the flipside of those things for outplaying me. And that risk vs reward is the basis for balance in a game, which is missing from WvW in so many aspects and that is one of the reasons it why it died 4+ years ago, not because a few players so bad that they think a weak band-aid like reveal is monstrously unfair to stealth in WvW.

Pretty much this.

Along with the fact that giving good stealth and good mobility to the same class is typically a no-no. This is before we even discuss giving them a counter for the counter.

Rangers and engie have good stealth (if they wanted) along with good mobility yet they have the sustain of warriors.

Rangers and Engie do not have the stealth of thief, or the mobility of thief.

This must be why everybody is running a thief in WvW and why rangers and engie's are so rare.

Ranger can get close for mobility but needs to blow entire kits while the thief can spam the same ability using init. There are no perma stealth rangers.

Very true, its a proven fact that blowing all your init on runaway skills doesn't leave you vulnerable at all. Because having no init left is nothing like having no cooldowns. Also we should buff rangers so they do they have perma stealth, because rangers are really lacking in the sustain department at the moment.

This counter argument was hard to read. First of rangers and engi do have good not great access to stealth but they have higher hp, toughness, blocks invulnerability and protection skills in spades whereas thief doesnt so yeah thief has more access to stealth as it most certainly should. And before u go on about thiefs mobility again it most certainly should have higher mobility than both ranger and holo but that in no way means that they dont have great mobility them selves as I've caught thieves on both soulbeast(gs/owl),holo,warriors and on rev many times.its easy to keep up with a thief close enough to pew pew them to death. Having no ini doesnt leave them at a disadvantage? Lmao what is that? Ini is a global resource both weapon sets and one inf arrow cost 6/15 ini or 6/12 if not running trick. Ur one of those players spouting hyperbole as if ini is infinite so thief's skills can be infinitely spammed with no risk to go with there infinite evades cuz they have a infinite endurance pool that fully refills when empty lol. So having no ini is way better than having no skills off cooldown, thieves have zero ini for more often than another class would have all weapon sets skills on CD. In my server theres way more rangers than thieves in wvw,like way more. Theres a bit of a increase of thieves trying new preparations and build testing trade changes but that will die off. Lastly buff rangers sustain cuz its lacking? I'd hope ur trolling but I'd be hard to tell lol

[Doug.4930]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@AsiraasiB.7165 said:This whole post is why this game is dying. Anet sees posts like this, sympathizes and then adheres their cries.

Instead of encouraging ppl to l2p..

With the amount of reveals in this game from traits or utilities, wvw having towers and guards reveals, anet giving pretty much all of thieves weps damage to reveal... I dont understand these threads...

Not to mention thief no longer has traps, so no trapper runes... Meaning they have to use pure initiative to stay invisible.. And somehow damage you, with no more initiative btw... And then use more initiative to stay invisible.. And not get revealed by u or tower or guards etc...Plz explain

If you don't understand why invisibility is OP in open world type PvP then it is you that needs to learn to play. It is the same in pretty much every game, even ones that have far more counters than in GW2.

When I play ESO and want ez-mode when I go roaming, you know what two classes I play, magsorc because mobility like stealth is OP in these game modes or I play nightblade because of stealth.

And to put GW2's pitiful reveal in perspective, in ESO every single class has access to reveal skills that can simply be slotted in on your bar (in any build if you want), then AOE skills reveal you (in game where there are no cooldowns so AOE can be spammed) and then detect pots on top of that. And guess what it is still faceroll OP even then, I can do things on my nightblade that I could only dream of on my necro, DK, etc.

Stealth (at least the typical full out invis) simply does not work as a balanced mechanic in things like WvW. If I play my thief in WvW and start losing a fight, then the vast majority of the time if I want I can disengage that fight, yet I am not punished for playing poorly, nor is the chap I am fighting rewarded for outplaying me, that is broken.

Yet if I play sPvP and do the same thing, I am punished by losing the capture circle, failing to make use of our 2v1 which then means we are 3v4 the rest of the map, etc, and conversely my opponent is rewarded by the flipside of those things for outplaying me. And that risk vs reward is the basis for balance in a game, which is missing from WvW in so many aspects and that is one of the reasons it why it died 4+ years ago, not because a few players so bad that they think a weak band-aid like reveal is monstrously unfair to stealth in WvW.

Pretty much this.

Along with the fact that giving good stealth and good mobility to the same class is typically a no-no. This is before we even discuss giving them a counter for the counter.

Rangers and engie have good stealth (if they wanted) along with good mobility yet they have the sustain of warriors.

Rangers and Engie do not have the stealth of thief, or the mobility of thief.

This must be why everybody is running a thief in WvW and why rangers and engie's are so rare.

Ranger can get close for mobility but needs to blow entire kits while the thief can spam the same ability using init. There are no perma stealth rangers.

Very true, its a proven fact that blowing all your init on runaway skills doesn't leave you vulnerable at all. Because having no init left is nothing like having no cooldowns. Also we should buff rangers so they do they have perma stealth, because rangers are really lacking in the sustain department at the moment.

This counter argument was hard to read. First of rangers and engi do have good not great access to stealth but they have higher hp, toughness, blocks invulnerability and protection skills in spades whereas thief doesnt so yeah thief has more access to stealth as it most certainly should. And before u go on about thiefs mobility again it most certainly should have higher mobility than both ranger and holo but that in no way means that they dont have great mobility them selves as I've caught thieves on both soulbeast(gs/owl),holo,warriors and on rev many times.its easy to keep up with a thief close enough to pew pew them to death. Having no ini doesnt leave them at a disadvantage? Lmao what is that? Ini is a global resource both weapon sets and one inf arrow cost 6/15 ini or 6/12 if not running trick. Ur one of those players spouting hyperbole as if ini is infinite so thief's skills can be infinitely spammed with no risk to go with there infinite evades cuz they have a infinite endurance pool that fully refills when empty lol. So having no ini is way better than having no skills off cooldown, thieves have zero ini for more often than another class would have all weapon sets skills on CD. In my server theres way more rangers than thieves in wvw,like way more. Theres a bit of a increase of thieves trying new preparations and build testing trade changes but that will die off. Lastly buff rangers sustain cuz its lacking? I'd hope ur trolling but I'd be hard to tell lol

I'll save you some time, by saying that I should have put a sarcasm tag at the end of my post.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Doug.4930 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@AsiraasiB.7165 said:This whole post is why this game is dying. Anet sees posts like this, sympathizes and then adheres their cries.

Instead of encouraging ppl to l2p..

With the amount of reveals in this game from traits or utilities, wvw having towers and guards reveals, anet giving pretty much all of thieves weps damage to reveal... I dont understand these threads...

Not to mention thief no longer has traps, so no trapper runes... Meaning they have to use pure initiative to stay invisible.. And somehow damage you, with no more initiative btw... And then use more initiative to stay invisible.. And not get revealed by u or tower or guards etc...Plz explain

If you don't understand why invisibility is OP in open world type PvP then it is you that needs to learn to play. It is the same in pretty much every game, even ones that have far more counters than in GW2.

When I play ESO and want ez-mode when I go roaming, you know what two classes I play, magsorc because mobility like stealth is OP in these game modes or I play nightblade because of stealth.

And to put GW2's pitiful reveal in perspective, in ESO every single class has access to reveal skills that can simply be slotted in on your bar (in any build if you want), then AOE skills reveal you (in game where there are no cooldowns so AOE can be spammed) and then detect pots on top of that. And guess what it is still faceroll OP even then, I can do things on my nightblade that I could only dream of on my necro, DK, etc.

Stealth (at least the typical full out invis) simply does not work as a balanced mechanic in things like WvW. If I play my thief in WvW and start losing a fight, then the vast majority of the time if I want I can disengage that fight, yet I am not punished for playing poorly, nor is the chap I am fighting rewarded for outplaying me, that is broken.

Yet if I play sPvP and do the same thing, I am punished by losing the capture circle, failing to make use of our 2v1 which then means we are 3v4 the rest of the map, etc, and conversely my opponent is rewarded by the flipside of those things for outplaying me. And that risk vs reward is the basis for balance in a game, which is missing from WvW in so many aspects and that is one of the reasons it why it died 4+ years ago, not because a few players so bad that they think a weak band-aid like reveal is monstrously unfair to stealth in WvW.

Pretty much this.

Along with the fact that giving good stealth and good mobility to the same class is typically a no-no. This is before we even discuss giving them a counter for the counter.

Rangers and engie have good stealth (if they wanted) along with good mobility yet they have the sustain of warriors.

Rangers and Engie do not have the stealth of thief, or the mobility of thief.

This must be why everybody is running a thief in WvW and why rangers and engie's are so rare.

Ranger can get close for mobility but needs to blow entire kits while the thief can spam the same ability using init. There are no perma stealth rangers.

Very true, its a proven fact that blowing all your init on runaway skills doesn't leave you vulnerable at all. Because having no init left is nothing like having no cooldowns. Also we should buff rangers so they do they have perma stealth, because rangers are really lacking in the sustain department at the moment.

This counter argument was hard to read. First of rangers and engi do have good not great access to stealth but they have higher hp, toughness, blocks invulnerability and protection skills in spades whereas thief doesnt so yeah thief has more access to stealth as it most certainly should. And before u go on about thiefs mobility again it most certainly should have higher mobility than both ranger and holo but that in no way means that they dont have great mobility them selves as I've caught thieves on both soulbeast(gs/owl),holo,warriors and on rev many times.its easy to keep up with a thief close enough to pew pew them to death. Having no ini doesnt leave them at a disadvantage? Lmao what is that? Ini is a global resource both weapon sets and one inf arrow cost 6/15 ini or 6/12 if not running trick. Ur one of those players spouting hyperbole as if ini is infinite so thief's skills can be infinitely spammed with no risk to go with there infinite evades cuz they have a infinite endurance pool that fully refills when empty lol. So having no ini is way better than having no skills off cooldown, thieves have zero ini for more often than another class would have all weapon sets skills on CD. In my server theres way more rangers than thieves in wvw,like way more. Theres a bit of a increase of thieves trying new preparations and build testing trade changes but that will die off. Lastly buff rangers sustain cuz its lacking? I'd hope ur trolling but I'd be hard to tell lol

I'll save you some time, by saying that I should have put a sarcasm tag at the end of my post.

Lmao I fell hard for thatPoints for good satire :)

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

@Doug.4930 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@AsiraasiB.7165 said:This whole post is why this game is dying. Anet sees posts like this, sympathizes and then adheres their cries.

Instead of encouraging ppl to l2p..

With the amount of reveals in this game from traits or utilities, wvw having towers and guards reveals, anet giving pretty much all of thieves weps damage to reveal... I dont understand these threads...

Not to mention thief no longer has traps, so no trapper runes... Meaning they have to use pure initiative to stay invisible.. And somehow damage you, with no more initiative btw... And then use more initiative to stay invisible.. And not get revealed by u or tower or guards etc...Plz explain

If you don't understand why invisibility is OP in open world type PvP then it is you that needs to learn to play. It is the same in pretty much every game, even ones that have far more counters than in GW2.

When I play ESO and want ez-mode when I go roaming, you know what two classes I play, magsorc because mobility like stealth is OP in these game modes or I play nightblade because of stealth.

And to put GW2's pitiful reveal in perspective, in ESO every single class has access to reveal skills that can simply be slotted in on your bar (in any build if you want), then AOE skills reveal you (in game where there are no cooldowns so AOE can be spammed) and then detect pots on top of that. And guess what it is still faceroll OP even then, I can do things on my nightblade that I could only dream of on my necro, DK, etc.

Stealth (at least the typical full out invis) simply does not work as a balanced mechanic in things like WvW. If I play my thief in WvW and start losing a fight, then the vast majority of the time if I want I can disengage that fight, yet I am not punished for playing poorly, nor is the chap I am fighting rewarded for outplaying me, that is broken.

Yet if I play sPvP and do the same thing, I am punished by losing the capture circle, failing to make use of our 2v1 which then means we are 3v4 the rest of the map, etc, and conversely my opponent is rewarded by the flipside of those things for outplaying me. And that risk vs reward is the basis for balance in a game, which is missing from WvW in so many aspects and that is one of the reasons it why it died 4+ years ago, not because a few players so bad that they think a weak band-aid like reveal is monstrously unfair to stealth in WvW.

Pretty much this.

Along with the fact that giving good stealth and good mobility to the same class is typically a no-no. This is before we even discuss giving them a counter for the counter.

Rangers and engie have good stealth (if they wanted) along with good mobility yet they have the sustain of warriors.

Rangers and Engie do not have the stealth of thief, or the mobility of thief.

This must be why everybody is running a thief in WvW and why rangers and engie's are so rare.

Ranger can get close for mobility but needs to blow entire kits while the thief can spam the same ability using init. There are no perma stealth rangers.

Very true, its a proven fact that blowing all your init on runaway skills doesn't leave you vulnerable at all. Because having no init left is nothing like having no cooldowns. Also we should buff rangers so they do they have perma stealth, because rangers are really lacking in the sustain department at the moment.

EDIT: This was satire.

... it doesnt make any sense to go into a discussions with lads which just dont want to improve in the game. They just want to have the pvp Feeling in a better pve meta Namens wvw blob Party... and cannot believe that they get eat by a roamer on there zerk meta build. In the actual Status teef get eaten by nearly all other roaming specs ... if they still loose on their roaming class maybe they need to accept that the teef was just a better player ...

But now they have mounts, welcome to the true pve Party... and somebody still ask questions why wvw is shrinking in Players and skill ...

Anet, totally wrong approach bois

[Ya Ya Yeah.7381]

@Nidome.1365 said:Seriously having a class that can bring someone down and finish them while remaining invisible the entire time is broken.

They are not back, prove it! :)

[Caedmon.6798]

@Crazy.6029 said:

@Nidome.1365 said:Seriously having a class that can bring someone down and finish them while remaining invisible the entire time is broken.

They are not back, prove it! :)

To be fair i have seen one thief so far that was running some weird condi build with the confu trait on steal and he didnt got revealed once while applying his condi's/cc boonrip,i saw him down/finish someone with it aswell,never revealed once. But those are extremely rare and so far no one else has picked up on the build yet.

[Jobber.6348]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Crazy.6029 said:

@Nidome.1365 said:Seriously having a class that can bring someone down and finish them while remaining invisible the entire time is broken.

They are not back, prove it! :)

To be fair i have seen one thief so far that was running some weird condi build with the confu trait on steal and he didnt got revealed once while applying his condi's/cc boonrip,i saw him down/finish someone with it aswell,never revealed once. But those are extremely rare and so far no one else has picked up on the build yet.

Sounds like he just Steal to someone and the dude in question paniced like an idiot and died to confusion.

Steal can be traited to be extremely overloaded :

• Poison on Steal
• Confusion on Steal
• Boonrip on Steal
• Mug (Damage and Heal) on Steal

They can also slap yu with a Stolen item during the Steal, and some have very deadly conditions like Throw Scale and Tooth Stab. (Especially Tooth stab which is a minute long Bleed which can deal well over 10k damage in Bleed alone)

Without Condi cleanse yur already dead many times over without noticing it.

[Caedmon.6798]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Crazy.6029 said:

@Nidome.1365 said:Seriously having a class that can bring someone down and finish them while remaining invisible the entire time is broken.

They are not back, prove it! :)

To be fair i have seen one thief so far that was running some weird condi build with the confu trait on steal and he didnt got revealed once while applying his condi's/cc boonrip,i saw him down/finish someone with it aswell,never revealed once. But those are extremely rare and so far no one else has picked up on the build yet.

Sounds like he just Steal to someone and the dude in question paniced like an idiot and died to confusion.

Steal can be traited to be extremely overloaded :

• Poison on Steal
• Confusion on Steal
• Boonrip on Steal
• Mug (Damage and Heal) on Steal

They can also slap yu with a Stolen item during the Steal, and some have very deadly conditions like Throw Scale and Tooth Stab. (Especially Tooth stab which is a minute long Bleed which can deal well over 10k damage in Bleed alone)

Without Condi cleanse yur already dead many times over without noticing it.

Maybe he did. The guy was actually applying a good set of condis.I'l try to see tomorrow what he ran exactly.

[Taobella.6597]

this is magic thief :)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAqYVnsMBNGj1FDmOBUGjFZCzrMMG+Qa7ppQAgfY2MnmA-jVyCQBI7RAUP9BVU5xKVCWQ1f2oSslt/AAOBAH7IAEAABYmlZZOzAzcmzcmzcmVmzcmzcmzcmzcmzsUA6uBD-w

the way you do combo is you go blinding shadow > deadeye mark > mercy > deadeye mark = that enough to go threw a mount an kill someone if they do not run con clear :).

[Turk.5460]

@Yasai.3549 said:

• Mug (Damage and Heal) on Steal

This would reveal the Thief