[merged] Equipment templates offer less for those that have invested into the game more - Legendary

[Taygus.4571]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:What about those players prefering to use ascended but who have invested more into the game than those who purchased legendaries?You'd need to invest really a lot into ascended gear to exceed the cost of legendaries for the same slots.

7 sets of ascended armor cost the same as one legendary set of armorSo, basically, you need to go

beyond

the capacity of template system to make it even.

Unless you use +9+5 infusions, then its cheaper so you only need one set.

And that's for armor only.

For trinkets, it cannot even compare - and even those are still way better than runes.

yup its costs 500 gold more for 6 ledgie runes, than a set of ledgie armor.

I have no idea about trinkets, will l check

yup trinkets arent worth it either. Costs almost 1500 gold for vision.

[Ashantara.8731]

@"Rasimir.6239" said:Are you seriously arguing that "it's not fair because others get more out of the update than I do"? I'm sorry, but your arguments are starting to remind me of the "it's not fair new people get to play HoT when I had to pay for it years ago" crowd.

Two different pairs of shoes.

Anyway, one of the main purposes of legendary gear and upgrades, besides being 100% customizable, has been that it's taking up only one set's space in your inventory - not even your inventory but your equipped inventory. From hereon forth, however, this will no longer be the case as you won't be able to save several gear builds in one equipment tab for legendary gear; you will need just as many tabs as people who are using non-legendary gear, thus taking the purpose of legendary gear to the absurd, making it pointless to own and completely devaluating it.

We are not talking about money here, although those people will be forced to pay for additional tabs, too. We are talking about the amount of time those people invested to acquire legendary gear to have it more comfortable - and now they won't. They could as well be using ascended gear instead, which is a lot easier to come by. And if you say now that, "Hey, just use one template tab and switch the stats manually as before!", then I need to tell you that this also means that people with non-legendary gear will have it more comfortable, because it will only take them one click to swap stats instead of the hassle of customizing their gear each time.

So yes, it is not fair that non-legendary gear owners get more out of this when the purpose of legendary gear by design should be the exact opposite.

P.S. If you want to understand better in general what is wrong with ANet's upcoming template system, please check out this post of mine.

[Astralporing.1957]

Notice also, that you cannot use an argument of "but what about legendary skin, isn't that alone worth it". Not when WvW and SPvP legendary armor sets do not have unique skins.

[Rasimir.6239]

@"Ashantara.8731" said:Anyway, one of the main purposes (snip) thus taking the purposeYou start of great, acknowledging that perserving bag space is just one of several advantages legendary gear gives, but somehow loose sight of that in the space of just one paragraph. Yes, one of the conveniences legendary gear offers is not as much of a bonus as it used to be, but it's not the only bonus legendary gear offers.

thus taking the purpose of legendary gear to the absurd, making it pointless to own and completely devaluating it.If saving bag space was your only motivation to making legendary gear, then that is indeed unfortunate for you, but as mentioned before (by both of us) saving space is far from the only (or for many players even the main) advantage of legendary gear. As for the "value" of legendaries, they've never been the best value for any given use (except offering unique skins).

And if you say now that, "Hey, just use one template tab and switch the stats manually as before!", then I need to tell you that this also means that people with non-legendary gear will have it more comfortable, because it will only take them one click to swap stats instead of the hassle of customizing their gear each time.Sorry, but I can't follow your logic here. Whether I place two ascended staffs with different stats in my two gear templates, or place my Nevermore with different stat selections and sigils in those same two templates, doesn't make any difference at all. If I wanted to go to extremes I'd even say that for me personally the gain in convenience is greater for legendary gear, since with ascended weapons I just had to double-click the weapon in inventory to swap before, which to me was way more convenient than the stat-changing of my legendary gear.

So yes, it is not fair that non-legendary gear owners get more out of this when the purpose of legendary gear by design should be the exact opposite.They don't, and it shouldn't. And this is exactly the kind of argument that reminded me of my anology in the post you quoted: ANet implements something new that benefits (most) players, but it benefits some players more than others. Just because you spent time and money to pursue a specific shiny does not and in my opinion should not ever mean that any bonus implemented into this game needs to be designed so it benefits you the most.

P.S. If you want to understand better in general what is wrong with ANet's upcoming template system, please check out this post of mine.I've read your posts, but I don't agree with your arguments.

[Rasimir.6239]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Notice also, that you cannot use an argument of "but what about legendary skin, isn't that alone worth it". Not when WvW and SPvP legendary armor sets do not have unique skins.Free swapping of stats and runes, including all yet-to-come stat combinations, as often and as long as I want, is a major benefit of legendary gear. To me personally it's much more of a benefit than preserving bag space (too many characters and not interested in e.g. constantly moving my Nevermore between all of my eles and druids) or specific skins.

[sigur.9453]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Notice also, that you cannot use an argument of "but what about legendary skin, isn't that alone worth it". Not when WvW and SPvP legendary armor sets do not have unique skins.

I like to add:Asc. Weapons/Armour in Contrast to Legendaries can actually drop ingame. So you cannot really compare the "real" value difference like @Taygus.4571 did. While technically correct, I doubt that crafted pieces makes the majority of an already raiding/Fractal running players equipment.Most of my 20+ Asc. Sets where basicly free. My legendaries not so much.

[Taygus.4571]

@sigur.9453 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Notice also, that you cannot use an argument of "but what about legendary

skin

, isn't that alone worth it". Not when WvW and SPvP legendary armor sets do

not

have unique skins.

I like to add:Asc. Weapons/Armour in Contrast to Legendaries can actually drop ingame. So you cannot really compare the "real" value difference like @Taygus.4571 did. While technically correct, I doubt that crafted pieces makes the majority of an already raiding/Fractal running players equipment.Most of my 20+ Asc. Sets where basicly free. My legendaries not so much.

It does for me...because all that ever drops for me is shoulders lol. ..oh and I got a hammer and bow, I'll never use xD.

[Rasimir.6239]

@Taygus.4571 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Notice also, that you cannot use an argument of "but what about legendary

skin

, isn't that alone worth it". Not when WvW and SPvP legendary armor sets do

not

have unique skins.

I like to add:Asc. Weapons/Armour in Contrast to Legendaries can actually drop ingame. So you cannot really compare the "real" value difference like @Taygus.4571 did. While technically correct, I doubt that crafted pieces makes the majority of an already raiding/Fractal running players equipment.Most of my 20+ Asc. Sets where basicly free. My legendaries not so much.

It does for me...because all that ever drops for me is shoulders lol. ..oh and I got a hammer and bow, I'll never use xD.We should team up ... out of five ascended armor boxes I ever got from fractals, four were trousers :p .

[sigur.9453]

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Notice also, that you cannot use an argument of "but what about legendary

skin

, isn't that alone worth it". Not when WvW and SPvP legendary armor sets do

not

have unique skins.

I like to add:Asc. Weapons/Armour in Contrast to Legendaries can actually drop ingame. So you cannot really compare the "real" value difference like @Taygus.4571 did. While technically correct, I doubt that crafted pieces makes the majority of an already raiding/Fractal running players equipment.Most of my 20+ Asc. Sets where basicly free. My legendaries not so much.

It does for me...because all that ever drops for me is shoulders lol. ..oh and I got a hammer and bow, I'll never use xD.We should team up ... out of five ascended armor boxes I ever got from fractals, four were trousers :p .

Play daylie endgame/weekly raids for 4+ years and things will add up. no luck involved, brute force it!

[Rasimir.6239]

@sigur.9453 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@Taygus.4571 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Notice also, that you cannot use an argument of "but what about legendary

skin

, isn't that alone worth it". Not when WvW and SPvP legendary armor sets do

not

have unique skins.

I like to add:Asc. Weapons/Armour in Contrast to Legendaries can actually drop ingame. So you cannot really compare the "real" value difference like @Taygus.4571 did. While technically correct, I doubt that crafted pieces makes the majority of an already raiding/Fractal running players equipment.Most of my 20+ Asc. Sets where basicly free. My legendaries not so much.

It does for me...because all that ever drops for me is shoulders lol. ..oh and I got a hammer and bow, I'll never use xD.We should team up ... out of five ascended armor boxes I ever got from fractals, four were trousers :p .

Play daylie endgame/weekly raids for 4+ years and things will add up. no luck involved, brute force it!I know, but I'm not at a time of life where I have the spare time to do that unfortunately. Maybe in a decade when I'm ready for retirement B) .

[Lucinellia.9247]

@Taygus.4571 said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:

TL;DR

- Equipment templates are worse for gained item storage, convenience and fashion wars if you invested in Legendary items but you'll still pay exactly the same. If you want the same feature set as players in ascended gear, you'll need to invest in further ascended gear sets, removing a previous QoL of your legendary gear and effectively making it an ascended set with a ~2000 gold tax for different skins.

We don't actually know yet if skins change based on the loadout.

Watch the "reveal" of equipment templates in the Icebrood Saga announcement. When the ability to swap sets is discussed, the armor is changed.

You could argue that this is subject to change, however on the information we have received thus far, equipment templates also seem to function as skin templates.

[Lucinellia.9247]

@"Rasimir.6239" said:Legendary gear in this game has always been optional, and it's always been several times as expensive as the equivalent gear of lesser quality levels. You still have the stat, infusion, and rune/sigil swapping free of charge as a bonus for having legendary gear instead of ascended.

Which is nullified if you want the feature complete version of equipment templates including skin swapping, which we can reasonably assume is part of the feature given the clip shown during the Icebrood Saga announcement.

To be abrupt, I would appreciate if you could consider the totality of the point I am making in my post, instead of trying to pick at strands to find something to argue with. A full discussion can't really be had if you don't want to consider things holistically as you are effectively building straw arguments at that point instead of providing a rebuttal to the point I am making.

Are you seriously arguing that "it's not fair because others get more out of the update than I do"? I'm sorry, but your arguments are starting to remind me of the "it's not fair new people get to play HoT when I had to pay for it years ago" crowd.

That doesn't have anything to do with the situation. Previous expansions being rolled into new ones isn't anything new in the MMO space and has been the norm for many years. However, Guild Wars 2 has stood on a platform since 2013 that the highest level of gear won't be antiquated. The stats of ascended have been consistent since then and legendaries received no additional stat benefit. Instead, legendaries were promoted by Arenanet as being a solution to the lack of build and gear templates - get your set of legendary gear and you can happily go on your way switching things about as needed but at a tax of thousands of gold, being dedicated to particular game modes and investing a lot of time.

However, with the new equipment templates, a disparity is being introduced between ascended and legendary. Ascended items result in the purchase of an equipment template being worth more - you gain more effective storage and the option to switch skins. Legendary items gain less in terms of storage and you can't switch skins. In terms of the situation where gear wasn't antiquated, players with legendary items now need to go ahead and do that - they need to reduce their multiple thousands of gold legendary items to the level of a fancy piece of ascended gear and go out their way to rebuild any other sets with ascended items.

This is a distinct disadvantage for players that have bothered to show commitment to the game with the acquisition of legendary items. Do keep in mind that the situation worsens should you have more legendaries and want more equipment templates. It penalises the players that are most likely to want additional templates. That is pretty poor business practice at best. There is a reason that coffee shops with loyalty schemes give you a free coffee on your tenth purchase, not increase the cost of something you'd consume anyway. That behaviour drives people away.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

@"Miatela.5047" said:

@Taygus.4571 said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:

TL;DR

- Equipment templates are worse for gained item storage, convenience and fashion wars if you invested in Legendary items but you'll still pay exactly the same. If you want the same feature set as players in ascended gear, you'll need to invest in further ascended gear sets, removing a previous QoL of your legendary gear and effectively making it an ascended set with a ~2000 gold tax for different skins.

We don't actually know yet if skins change based on the loadout.

Watch the "reveal" of equipment templates in the Icebrood Saga announcement. When the ability to swap sets is discussed, the armor is changed.

You could argue that this is subject to change, however on the information we have received thus far, equipment templates also seem to function as skin templates.

It was addressed directly in the stream that the dev personally wants the equipment templates to have that, but they need to look into the logistics and the transmutation charge economy.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

Idk how someone would say ascended is better than legendary. Last I checked you can swap stats, infusions, sigils and runes for free on legendary. And having a legendary dosen't really show any commitment for the fact you can easily swipe away and get a legendary if you want. Legendary has more value because you can easily fool around and make all type of niche builds when ever you want and how you want without wasting time and gold throwing stuff in the forge or buying this or that. Maybe today ill make a support shout warrior with trooper runes or power scourge with madking runes just for the fuck of it. Now all i want from this template armory thing is the freedom to switch to this armor thats stored without worrying that i didnt unequip it earlier. Dont really care otherwise for build templates for the fact i have 16 toons each with a specific build and look. Shit buying a character slot may be easier and cheaper than buying these templates.

[Lucinellia.9247]

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:Idk how someone would say ascended is better than legendary. Last I checked you can swap stats, infusions, sigils and runes for free on legendary. And having a legendary dosen't really show any commitment for the fact you can easily swipe away and get a legendary if you want. Legendary has more value because you can easily fool around and make all type of niche builds when ever you want and how you want without wasting time and gold throwing stuff in the forge or buying this or that. Maybe today ill make a support shout warrior with trooper runes or power scourge with madking runes just for the kitten of it. Now all i want from this template armory thing is the freedom to switch to this armor thats stored without worrying that i didnt unequip it earlier. Dont really care otherwise for build templates for the fact i have 16 toons each with a specific build and look. kitten buying a character slot may be easier and cheaper than buying these templates.

So, before going off on a tangent, you could read my post and you will see exactly how ascended gear is gaining features while legendary items are losing them.

It is great that a different solution - character slots - work for you, that doesn't mean that the issue is minimised for others though.

Edit: typos

[Lucinellia.9247]

@Eloc Freidon.5692 said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:

@Taygus.4571 said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:

TL;DR

- Equipment templates are worse for gained item storage, convenience and fashion wars if you invested in Legendary items but you'll still pay exactly the same. If you want the same feature set as players in ascended gear, you'll need to invest in further ascended gear sets, removing a previous QoL of your legendary gear and effectively making it an ascended set with a ~2000 gold tax for different skins.

We don't actually know yet if skins change based on the loadout.

Watch the "reveal" of equipment templates in the Icebrood Saga announcement. When the ability to swap sets is discussed, the armor is changed.

You could argue that this is subject to change, however on the information we have received thus far, equipment templates also seem to function as skin templates.

It was addressed directly in the stream that the dev personally wants the equipment templates to have that, but they need to look into the logistics and the transmutation charge economy.

So in other words, that feature isn't coming with the release and we have no indication that it will actually be added? Devs have talked about a whole host of features that they've planned, or have been working on, that don't make it into the game. We need a concrete statement that Arenanet aren't just going to antiquate peoples' legendary gear.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

@"Miatela.5047" said:

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:Idk how someone would say ascended is better than legendary. Last I checked you can swap stats, infusions, sigils and runes for free on legendary. And having a legendary dosen't really show any commitment for the fact you can easily swipe away and get a legendary if you want. Legendary has more value because you can easily fool around and make all type of niche builds when ever you want and how you want without wasting time and gold throwing stuff in the forge or buying this or that. Maybe today ill make a support shout warrior with trooper runes or power scourge with madking runes just for the kitten of it. Now all i want from this template armory thing is the freedom to switch to this armor thats stored without worrying that i didnt unequip it earlier. Dont really care otherwise for build templates for the fact i have 16 toons each with a specific build and look. kitten buying a character slot may be easier and cheaper than buying these templates.

So, before going off on a tangent, you could read my post and you will see

exactly

how ascended gear is gaining features while legendary items are losing them.

It is great that a different solution - character slots - work for you, that doesn't mean that the issue is minimised for others though.

Edit: typos

I dont really see what your seeing. Whatever you can do with ascended you can do with legendary. We all need to try it out before we make any crazy accusations on what or why it will or wont work. Looks fine so far for something that they really didnt have to make at all. I perfer this way than downloading something like arc or whatever else someone made independently.

[Lucinellia.9247]

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:I dont really see what your seeing. Whatever you can do with ascended you can do with legendary.

No, you can't. That is the issue.

If you have ascended gear you gain the ability to fashion swap without having to invest in extra storage as you'll be able to fully utilise the equipment slots. If you are using a set of legendary gear, you cannot fashion swap and you gain less effective storage unless you go out of your way and buy ascended items - items that weren't needed because of what was previously supported as being an Anet-backed solution to the lack of templates. At that point, a player has effectively paid a tax of over 2000 gold for a legendary armor that will effectively be used as an ascended set, over 2000 gold per legendary weapon and more than that for any trinkets because they were rolling with what Arenanet previously released to overcome the issue of no templates.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:I dont really see what your seeing. Whatever you can do with ascended you can do with legendary.If what you get is the same, why overpay?

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:I dont really see what your seeing. Whatever you can do with ascended you can do with legendary.If what you get is the same, why overpay?

For the skin. This is fashion wars.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:I dont really see what your seeing. Whatever you can do with ascended you can do with legendary.If what you get is the same, why overpay?

For the skin. This is fashion wars.

That is only for Envoy. Your point is not valid for pvp and wvw ones.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

@"Miatela.5047" said:

@"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:I dont really see what your seeing. Whatever you can do with ascended you can do with legendary.

No, you can't. That is the issue.

If you have ascended gear you gain the ability to fashion swap without having to invest in extra storage as you'll be able to fully utilise the equipment slots. If you are using a set of legendary gear, you cannot fashion swap and you gain less effective storage unless you go out of your way and buy ascended items - items that weren't needed because of what was previously supported as being an Anet-backed solution to the lack of templates. At that point, a player has effectively paid a tax of over 2000 gold for a legendary armor that will effectively be used as an ascended set, over 2000 gold per legendary weapon and more than that for any trinkets

because they were rolling with what Arenanet previously released to overcome the issue of no templates.

With my 1 set of legendary armor i can do a berserker, viper, diviners, seraph, blah blah with only taking 6 slots away from my inventory. Now with this new template system i can put that armor in there, use up no space, and share it across my account. Ok fine so what i would have to change stats, which is so easy now with the select all checkbox. Very minor inconvenience again for something they DID NOT have to add. I dont get the complaint on getting a qol because its not the way "i want it," or thought what it should be. Value is in the eye of the beholder and feel bad you feel the way you do. For me this is not greatest but does make the game better and easier overall.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:I dont really see what your seeing. Whatever you can do with ascended you can do with legendary.

No, you can't. That is the issue.

If you have ascended gear you gain the ability to fashion swap without having to invest in extra storage as you'll be able to fully utilise the equipment slots. If you are using a set of legendary gear, you cannot fashion swap and you gain less effective storage unless you go out of your way and buy ascended items - items that weren't needed because of what was previously supported as being an Anet-backed solution to the lack of templates. At that point, a player has effectively paid a tax of over 2000 gold for a legendary armor that will effectively be used as an ascended set, over 2000 gold per legendary weapon and more than that for any trinkets

because they were rolling with what Arenanet previously released to overcome the issue of no templates.

With my 1 set of legendary armor i can do a berserker, viper, diviners, seraph, blah blah with only taking 6 slots away from my inventory. Now with this new template system i can put that armor in there, use up no space, and share it across

my account

tabs on one character

. Ok fine so what i would have to change stats, which is so easy now with the select all checkbox. Very minor inconvenience again for something they DID NOT have to add. I dont get the complaint on getting a qol because its not the way "i want it," or thought what it should be. Value is in the eye of the beholder and feel bad you feel the way you do. For me this is not greatest but does make the game better and easier overall.

I just corrected a part of your comment.

The checkbox is nice but only work for the armor (not weapons and trinkets), and even if, swapping one by one runes, sigils and infusion are still long and annoying (a thing that arc template do perfectly).

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

It does work for trinkets and weapons. Unfortunately you have to switch to wep section or trinket section. And yeah it is annoying i will admit. I dont have arc so i cant comment on it.

[Linken.6345]

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:It does work for trinkets and weapons. Unfortunately you have to switch to wep section or trinket section. And yeah it is annoying i will admit. I dont have arc so i cant comment on it.

You did see that all items are character bound in the template item storage right?So no sharing across the account.