Condi thief is the least problematic/OP condi spec out there

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

God forbid thieves can win a duel.

[Ralkuth.1456]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:The issue is the Immob on sword and how it interacts with poison. remove the immob and replace it with Chill or Cripple and the spec would be fine.

Instead what Anet will do is continue to gut Deadly Arts just like the last time S/D Condi was meta instead of actually dealing with the S/D part of the build (which is the problematic part)

Huh? It's not a problem with power s/d. I always though it was panic strike. It never use to add poison at all, but it does and with no icd

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:The issue is the Immob on sword and how it interacts with poison. remove the immob and replace it with Chill or Cripple and the spec would be fine.

Instead what Anet will do is continue to gut Deadly Arts just like the last time S/D Condi was meta instead of actually dealing with the S/D part of the build (which is the problematic part)

Huh? It's not a problem with power s/d. I always though it was panic strike. It never use to add poison at all, but it does and with no icd

This^ 100%Removing immob from s2 and replacing with said suggestions would be far to heavy of a nerf to power s/d builds

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:The issue is the Immob on sword and how it interacts with poison. remove the immob and replace it with Chill or Cripple and the spec would be fine.

Instead what Anet will do is continue to gut Deadly Arts just like the last time S/D Condi was meta instead of actually dealing with the S/D part of the build (which is the problematic part)

Huh? It's not a problem with power s/d. I always though it was panic strike. It never use to add poison at all, but it does and with no icd

This^ 100%Removing immob from s2 and replacing with said suggestions would be far to heavy of a nerf to power s/d builds

If you replaced the 1s immob with a 3s chill it certainly wouldn’t be “too heavy a nerf” for power S/D. 3s chill is the same duration as Deathstrike’s old chill (which was considered great/OP) and on thief it would be more spammable than old Deathstrike as well. Adding chill and removing Immob would solve the condi S/D problem and also provide power S/D with that super helpful 66% slower recharge on targets in exchange for its super short duration immob. If anything it would likely end up either a minor nerf, break even, or even be a tiny buff for power S/D.

Thing is, if you nerf Panic Strike directly you end up nerfing a lot of different synergies across all of thief for many different forms of condi builds. If you “nerf” Infiltrator Strike and give it back Chill you only directly affect two builds with only a big impact on the problematic one, which is Condi S/D.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

That's the problem, panic strike synergies too well with "spamable" immobilize weapon skills. There was no need to add poison to panic strike at all.

[Itz Jay.8941]

@Sakorath.8910 said:Terrormancer and fire weaver are not nearly as oppressive as condi mirage and condi thief as they can be basically killed within a single stun or with a little extra pressure from enemy team. Also, fire weaver and terromancers have to be aggressive and engage in the fight to do condi damage. The problem with condi thief and mirage is the ability to dump out condis while evading or being invulnerable (mirage) to attacks completely. They get to play defensively and dump out tons of condis. Do you see the issue now?

I agree. Back in the day you had proper counter specs like D/P theif and portal mesmer where they had massive value the same as they do now but you at least had some counter play to them, it wasn't like they jumped out of the portal and bombed you while evading. There was prediction and therefore counter play, now what we have is the same two specs that were once called the two most overpowered, they are now even more overpowered and braindead easy to play than ever before and now all of a sudden there are a bunch of noobs coming to its defence because they can't be bothered to learn other classes at all to climb they just want to evade their way up the ladder.

The pvp in this game has been dumbed down too much now, the pof specs have ruined the game, fb and mirage are the biggest problem to this game now they should trial pvp without them for a couple months and see how much more fun the game is again. Too much shite all over the screen to enjoy it now, fb should be a pve spec and mirage should be power based +1 spec

[mortrialus.3062]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Op's argument that because poison and bleed do less damage than confusion, burning, and torment makes condi thief damage weaker than the condi builds which utilize those conditions is extremely flawed. It completely neglects the fact that condis stack in intensity so while 1 stack of burn may do more dps than 1 stack of poison, 1 stack of burn does not do more damage than say 20 stacks of poison. You can't just say torment, burning, and confusion are stronger conditions that do more dps without accounting for number of stacks. Also can't neglect how burn, confusion, and torment only do raw damage, while poison does both raw damage and reduces target healing which means much less damage is required to out sustain a foe.

Spider Venon+Infiltrator's Strike+Steal+Dodge is literally lethal levels of condition damage against any build in the game that can be dropped on a player with a fraction of a second to anticipate. Often times no time to anticipate considering how often thieves graphically desync from their actual position in game.

[otto.5684]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I actually see more fire weavers and burn guards these days than I do condi thief and I think it's pretty easy to see why.

In isolation, both builds are better. In practice I do not think any of the three builds is anything to rave about. Most of the complaints regarding condi damage is unwarranted. And it loses significant ground in team fights due to the abundance of AOE condi removal.

Well.. a warrior went to fight fire weaver or mirage solo and lost. Condi damage must be over powered.

[sephiroth.4217]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:Op's argument that because poison and bleed do less damage than confusion, burning, and torment makes condi thief damage weaker than the condi builds which utilize those conditions is extremely flawed. It completely neglects the fact that condis stack in intensity so while 1 stack of burn may do more dps than 1 stack of poison, 1 stack of burn does not do more damage than say 20 stacks of poison. You can't just say torment, burning, and confusion are stronger conditions that do more dps without accounting for number of stacks. Also can't neglect how burn, confusion, and torment only do raw damage, while poison does both raw damage and reduces target healing which means much less damage is required to out sustain a foe.

Spider Venon+Infiltrator's Strike+Steal+Dodge is literally lethal levels of condition damage against any build in the game that can be dropped on a player with a fraction of a second to anticipate. Often times no time to anticipate considering how often thieves graphically desync from their actual position in game.

then a random passive condition cleanse happens... or swapped weapon for cleansing proc... or got cleansed by an actual skill.... or a light field got blasted... or a decent support cleansed it for you... or you had magnetic aura up and reflected the daggers on dodge back at them... or you dodged the quite obvious set up (a thief is running at you from 900, he most likely about to port rather than run all the way up to you).. or I dont care because this games level of skill has literally hit the point where we complain about completely stupid shit instead of changing class or build to deal with it.

"muuuuuuum! MUUUUUUUM!!!! I DONT LIKE RED M and M's, I LIKE THE CHOCOLATE ONES!"

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:Op's argument that because poison and bleed do less damage than confusion, burning, and torment makes condi thief damage weaker than the condi builds which utilize those conditions is extremely flawed. It completely neglects the fact that condis stack in intensity so while 1 stack of burn may do more dps than 1 stack of poison, 1 stack of burn does not do more damage than say 20 stacks of poison. You can't just say torment, burning, and confusion are stronger conditions that do more dps without accounting for number of stacks. Also can't neglect how burn, confusion, and torment only do raw damage, while poison does both raw damage and reduces target healing which means much less damage is required to out sustain a foe.

Spider Venon+Infiltrator's Strike+Steal+Dodge is literally lethal levels of condition damage against any build in the game that can be dropped on a player with a fraction of a second to anticipate. Often times no time to anticipate considering how often thieves graphically desync from their actual position in game.

then a random passive condition cleanse happens... or swapped weapon for cleansing proc... or got cleansed by an actual skill.... or a light field got blasted... or a decent support cleansed it for you... or you had magnetic aura up and reflected the daggers on dodge back at them... or you dodged the quite obvious set up (a thief is running at you from 900, he most likely about to port rather than run all the way up to you).. or I dont care because this games level of skill has literally hit the point where we complain about completely stupid kitten instead of changing class or build to deal with it.

"muuuuuuum! MUUUUUUUM!!!! I DONT LIKE RED M and M's, I LIKE THE CHOCOLATE ONES!"

So much this^Literally speaks to most of the players in this game. Most not all.

[Shao.7236]

@Doto.6357 said:Condi s/d is fine but why infinite horizon clone spam mirage is still a thing confounds me. Gut the passive condi bomb from clones and move that damage into shatters.

There is absolutely no reason as to why the main source of a Mesmers damage comes from setting up a bunch of clone/turrets and then playing defensively and dodging. The class mechanic is shattering the clones, that’s where the damage should be coming from.

Can't be put anymore clearly. Mesmers as a whole should be allowed to blend into their clones, but only be rewarded for it as a form of sustain, not damage.

Clones can melt anyone's HP given they are standing still already mitigating Torment and Confusion. This is why I think the conditions are well designed if you don't blatantly fill the gaps with other great options that compensate for their weaknesses because this all on it's own spells overpowered.

The point in the game is to compensate for those weak links but not to the point where it's basically non existent.

@"Sakorath.8910" said:Terrormancer and fire weaver are not nearly as oppressive as condi mirage and condi thief as they can be basically killed within a single stun or with a little extra pressure from enemy team. Also, fire weaver and terromancers have to be aggressive and engage in the fight to do condi damage. The problem with condi thief and mirage is the ability to dump out condis while evading or being invulnerable (mirage) to attacks completely. They get to play defensively and dump out tons of condis. Do you see the issue now?

If it wasn't for the passive play conditions that are more damaging than Torment/Confusion aka Burn, Mirage would be more than balanced as players would be rewarded for not falling under the "tricks". Clone condition damage simply needs to be toned down.

As for thieves, they have "least" damaging conditions of all and thus leaves a lot of "time" to think of what anyone should do, quickly cleansing the first burst won't do it if all takes away is a quarter of your health. People have issues trading their health and that's one reason why a lot of builds fail in practice.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

People dislike condi thief because the damage is instant cast, unblockable, and partially unevadeable since the passive part of the damage procs on the next hit instead of the next attack. I pointed this out in my cheese thread. Anet needs to start looking at builds that lack meaningful counterplay and rework them to be less braindead.

Builds like condi thief, condi mirage, stealth spam DE, etc. don't need nerfs. They need changes to their base mechanics. All three of these builds get constant hate on the forums because all of them share the same basic playstyle of playing super passively while dealing damage in a way that can only be avoided through prediction and/or luck. It's bad for the game.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Idk how thief playstyle is passive in comparison to mesmer's.

[mortrialus.3062]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:Op's argument that because poison and bleed do less damage than confusion, burning, and torment makes condi thief damage weaker than the condi builds which utilize those conditions is extremely flawed. It completely neglects the fact that condis stack in intensity so while 1 stack of burn may do more dps than 1 stack of poison, 1 stack of burn does not do more damage than say 20 stacks of poison. You can't just say torment, burning, and confusion are stronger conditions that do more dps without accounting for number of stacks. Also can't neglect how burn, confusion, and torment only do raw damage, while poison does both raw damage and reduces target healing which means much less damage is required to out sustain a foe.

Spider Venon+Infiltrator's Strike+Steal+Dodge is literally lethal levels of condition damage against any build in the game that can be dropped on a player with a fraction of a second to anticipate. Often times no time to anticipate considering how often thieves graphically desync from their actual position in game.

then a random passive condition cleanse happens... or swapped weapon for cleansing proc... or got cleansed by an actual skill.... or a light field got blasted... or a decent support cleansed it for you... or you had magnetic aura up and reflected the daggers on dodge back at them... or you dodged the quite obvious set up (a thief is running at you from 900, he most likely about to port rather than run all the way up to you).. or I dont care because this games level of skill has literally hit the point where we complain about completely stupid kitten instead of changing class or build to deal with it.

"muuuuuuum! MUUUUUUUM!!!! I DONT LIKE RED M and M's, I LIKE THE CHOCOLATE ONES!"

All of those handicaps and counters that effect condition daredevil also apply to more gradual condition classes except even more so.

The problem with condition thief is that unlike other condi specs where you can anticipate "Okay there's 300 power damage and 500 condition damage on ranged auto attack" or "This attack will stack 10 bleed if it all hits me" or "if I stand in this field or stand nearby when they are very obviously farting out AoE I'll get conditioned to death", condition thief is able to do 100% health levels of condition damage with only a fraction of a second of a tell, often times less so because of how of ten thieves graphically desync fro their actual position in game, unblockably, and evading all the while.

And then it ports out, often straight through line of sight, and then ports in again if the previous attempt didn't finish the job.

Even sitting still and eating the entirety of a mesmer's pistol phantasm and scepter beam at the same time isn't going to dump half that level of damage on a target. And that takes three full seconds of pulsing conditions to ramp up.

And daredevils can effectively do that with next to zero tell at 2100 range on top of having the capacity to have a guaranteed complete disengage from the encounter by the very nature of how their engage works.

[sephiroth.4217]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:Op's argument that because poison and bleed do less damage than confusion, burning, and torment makes condi thief damage weaker than the condi builds which utilize those conditions is extremely flawed. It completely neglects the fact that condis stack in intensity so while 1 stack of burn may do more dps than 1 stack of poison, 1 stack of burn does not do more damage than say 20 stacks of poison. You can't just say torment, burning, and confusion are stronger conditions that do more dps without accounting for number of stacks. Also can't neglect how burn, confusion, and torment only do raw damage, while poison does both raw damage and reduces target healing which means much less damage is required to out sustain a foe.

Spider Venon+Infiltrator's Strike+Steal+Dodge is literally lethal levels of condition damage against any build in the game that can be dropped on a player with a fraction of a second to anticipate. Often times no time to anticipate considering how often thieves graphically desync from their actual position in game.

then a random passive condition cleanse happens... or swapped weapon for cleansing proc... or got cleansed by an actual skill.... or a light field got blasted... or a decent support cleansed it for you... or you had magnetic aura up and reflected the daggers on dodge back at them... or you dodged the quite obvious set up (a thief is running at you from 900, he most likely about to port rather than run all the way up to you).. or I dont care because this games level of skill has literally hit the point where we complain about completely stupid kitten instead of changing class or build to deal with it.

"muuuuuuum! MUUUUUUUM!!!! I DONT LIKE RED M and M's, I LIKE THE CHOCOLATE ONES!"

All of those handicaps and counters that effect condition daredevil also apply to more gradual condition classes except even more so.

The problem with condition thief is that unlike other condi specs where you can anticipate "Okay there's 300 power damage and 500 condition damage on ranged auto attack" or "This attack will stack 10 bleed if it all hits me" or "if I stand in this field or stand nearby when they are very obviously farting out AoE I'll get conditioned to death", condition thief is able to do 100% health levels of condition damage with only a fraction of a second of a tell, often times less so because of how of ten thieves graphically desync fro their actual position in game, unblockably, and evading all the while.

And then it ports out, often straight through line of sight, and then ports in again if the previous attempt didn't finish the job.

Even sitting still and eating the entirety of a mesmer's pistol phantasm and scepter beam at the same time isn't going to dump half that level of damage on a target. And that takes

three full seconds

of pulsing conditions to ramp up.

And daredevils can effectively do that with next to zero tell at 2100 range on top of having the capacity to have a guaranteed complete disengage from the encounter by the very nature of how their engage works.

so it basically comes down to LoS porting and not the conditions themselves. The combination of the 2 is the problem is what you're saying, correct?

I can understand that.. handling the conditions is easy for me and I don't always have the ability to chase them down... so they poke, I cleanse, they poke, I cleanse and heal, they poke, I cleanse and repeat this cycle while they waste time with me... I take that as a win but I do get frustrated by the playstyle simply because I cant kill them on demand when I want too... but thats how they survive I guess.

[Arheundel.6451]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:Op's argument that because poison and bleed do less damage than confusion, burning, and torment makes condi thief damage weaker than the condi builds which utilize those conditions is extremely flawed. It completely neglects the fact that condis stack in intensity so while 1 stack of burn may do more dps than 1 stack of poison, 1 stack of burn does not do more damage than say 20 stacks of poison. You can't just say torment, burning, and confusion are stronger conditions that do more dps without accounting for number of stacks. Also can't neglect how burn, confusion, and torment only do raw damage, while poison does both raw damage and reduces target healing which means much less damage is required to out sustain a foe.

Spider Venon+Infiltrator's Strike+Steal+Dodge is literally lethal levels of condition damage against any build in the game that can be dropped on a player with a fraction of a second to anticipate. Often times no time to anticipate considering how often thieves graphically desync from their actual position in game.

then a random passive condition cleanse happens... or swapped weapon for cleansing proc... or got cleansed by an actual skill.... or a light field got blasted... or a decent support cleansed it for you... or you had magnetic aura up and reflected the daggers on dodge back at them... or you dodged the quite obvious set up (a thief is running at you from 900, he most likely about to port rather than run all the way up to you).. or I dont care because this games level of skill has literally hit the point where we complain about completely stupid kitten instead of changing class or build to deal with it.

"muuuuuuum! MUUUUUUUM!!!! I DONT LIKE RED M and M's, I LIKE THE CHOCOLATE ONES!"

All of those handicaps and counters that effect condition daredevil also apply to more gradual condition classes except even more so.

The problem with condition thief is that unlike other condi specs where you can anticipate "Okay there's 300 power damage and 500 condition damage on ranged auto attack" or "This attack will stack 10 bleed if it all hits me" or "if I stand in this field or stand nearby when they are very obviously farting out AoE I'll get conditioned to death", condition thief is able to do 100% health levels of condition damage with only a fraction of a second of a tell, often times less so because of how of ten thieves graphically desync fro their actual position in game, unblockably, and evading all the while.

And then it ports out, often straight through line of sight, and then ports in again if the previous attempt didn't finish the job.

Even sitting still and eating the entirety of a mesmer's pistol phantasm and scepter beam at the same time isn't going to dump half that level of damage on a target. And that takes

three full seconds

of pulsing conditions to ramp up.

And daredevils can effectively do that with next to zero tell at 2100 range on top of having the capacity to have a guaranteed complete disengage from the encounter by the very nature of how their engage works.

You can move , forcing them to overextend from the safety of their LoS infiltrator's strike return , you can dodge the instant they teleport in and pressure them as soon as they get close that's how I do.

The main point here is I can actually punish thief for mistakes...while the mesmer will have distortion or evasive mirror or aegis from chaos field or simply stealthed when they do a fuck up or they safely teleport away thx to their 8s CD staff teleport, it's why it's preferable to fight a condi thief than a condi mesmer....You can punish the thief for making bad decisions

The whole argument can be summurize in a single sentence I can punish the bad thief while the bad mesmer can still manage to get away , yes you can lose to thieves...I have lost some time ago to a plat 3 condi thief core and that was the only instance, I lose to thieves because I get outplayed.

You lose to mesmers because they have a plethora of defensive sets on relatively low CD and all packed in the same build, You lose to a thief..you lose to the player...you lose to a mesmer..you lose to the class

P.S Ofc I am talking about condi mirage

[NotoriousNaru.1705]

Most problematic to least and why:

1. Condi Mirage: Not the most popular one currently, but with the downfall of thieves this will be an insane problem. Condi mirage has access to ports, cleanse, reflect, cc, boon rip and the ability to do condi damage output with even more ease than condi thief and the ability to take any 1v1 matchup(except thief which inherently counters it with glob).IH makes this spec a huge problem, a competent cmirage will have 3 staff clones out spamming ambush on you while playing extremely passive and safe and this strat is very effective and easy to execute. IH also makes the strat of cleaving clones very pointless so you're kinda just chasing down a very slippery target while taking insane cleave from ambush.
2. Condi Thief: Mostly the same issue as mirage but a more tangible target to focus down and kill due to the repetitive patterns of gameplay(sword 2,steal). Not as dominant 1v1 or 1vx at all which is why it is a tier below cmirage but the condi spike is EXTREMELY EASY to execute and over the course of the season have seen many mediocre players pick it up and gain a boost in rating simply by playing this. The poison stacks too hard, the cover condis are too many, and the disengage and safety on this build is an all time high (shadowstep/roll for ini/sword 2 spam/shortbow 5 and 3).3.Sagebrand: Probably the one with the lowest skill floor and no skill ceiling. The entire build revolves mostly around spam, you run somewhere and dump all your symbols on x spot and spam mantras infront of people while doing so. This is what you start with, and this is what you do after playing it for awhile. I can see why this would be an issue in lower tiers but the higher you go, it is a known rule of thumb to simply focus the sagebrand because they all drop like flies. High boon application but very low sustain against high spikes(rev/holo/cthief/cmirage). How easy this build is to execute is why it goes #3 on my list. In most ranked matches, you simply go mid sword 2 in, swap and spam axe skills along with mantras and most players drop instantly. This is sadly due to how low the average player skill is and not the effectiveness of the build compared to #1 and #2 as this one is specifically designed to be a pug stomper and not an actual competitive build.
3. Terrormancer: No where near as problematic as condi mirage or condi thief but has certain flaws that cannot be overlooked. The entire build is built around spamming fears and boon rips for damage, which is all good and well but the main issue here is that most corrupts and fears on this build have absolutely no tell. A spite/curse 3-5boon rip proc is instant with 0 tell, cboon is almost impossible to dodge unless randomly(has a cast time yes, but similar to how wh4 on ranger operates). Doom which is the most problematic thing with core, is an actual instant cast fear, coupled with fear of death/terror makes it a problem. Not high on priority list because it doesn't have the ports and slipperiness that cthief and cmirage have. You can run walk+wurm sure but once you're caught in a cc chain a necro is as good as dead almost always.
4. Fire weaver: This one is at the bottom because its the most healthy one on the list. Most people's issue with it probably isn't that its a condi spec or how it does its burn application but really why it can live so easily. The tells are there for the most part and they have to be melee to do damage which to me is fine. As for its sustain, it needs it to compete with other bruisers in the current meta and taking that away will just remove weaver from being viable. If you see this spec as a problem I would suggest you look at the traits/skills and the animations for them, also know that most things are not meant to 1v1 a fire weaver.

This is all from ranked and not ats. I've played about 600 games last season and thats where this ranking comes from.

[Zawn.9647]

@NotoriousNaru.1705 said:Most problematic to least and why:

1. Condi Mirage: Not the most popular one currently, but with the downfall of thieves this will be an insane problem. Condi mirage has access to ports, cleanse, reflect, cc, boon rip and the ability to do condi damage output with even more ease than condi thief and the ability to take any 1v1 matchup(except thief which inherently counters it with glob).IH makes this spec a huge problem, a competent cmirage will have 3 staff clones out spamming ambush on you while playing extremely passive and safe and this strat is very effective and easy to execute. IH also makes the strat of cleaving clones very pointless so you're kinda just chasing down a very slippery target while taking insane cleave from ambush.
2. Condi Thief: Mostly the same issue as mirage but a more tangible target to focus down and kill due to the repetitive patterns of gameplay(sword 2,steal). Not as dominant 1v1 or 1vx at all which is why it is a tier below cmirage but the condi spike is EXTREMELY EASY to execute and over the course of the season have seen many mediocre players pick it up and gain a boost in rating simply by playing this. The poison stacks too hard, the cover condis are too many, and the disengage and safety on this build is an all time high (shadowstep/roll for ini/sword 2 spam/shortbow 5 and 3).3.Sagebrand: Probably the one with the lowest skill floor and no skill ceiling. The entire build revolves mostly around spam, you run somewhere and dump all your symbols on x spot and spam mantras infront of people while doing so. This is what you start with, and this is what you do after playing it for awhile. I can see why this would be an issue in lower tiers but the higher you go, it is a known rule of thumb to simply focus the sagebrand because they all drop like flies. High boon application but very low sustain against high spikes(rev/holo/cthief/cmirage). How easy this build is to execute is why it goes #3 on my list. In most ranked matches, you simply go mid sword 2 in, swap and spam axe skills along with mantras and most players drop instantly. This is sadly due to how low the average player skill is and not the effectiveness of the build compared to #1 and #2 as this one is specifically designed to be a pug stomper and not an actual competitive build.
3. Terrormancer: No where near as problematic as condi mirage or condi thief but has certain flaws that cannot be overlooked. The entire build is built around spamming fears and boon rips for damage, which is all good and well but the main issue here is that most corrupts and fears on this build have absolutely no tell. A spite/curse 3-5boon rip proc is instant with 0 tell, cboon is almost impossible to dodge unless randomly(has a cast time yes, but similar to how wh4 on ranger operates). Doom which is the most problematic thing with core, is an actual instant cast fear, coupled with fear of death/terror makes it a problem. Not high on priority list because it doesn't have the ports and slipperiness that cthief and cmirage have. You can run walk+wurm sure but once you're caught in a cc chain a necro is as good as dead almost always.
4. Fire weaver: This one is at the bottom because its the most healthy one on the list. Most people's issue with it probably isn't that its a condi spec or how it does its burn application but really why it can live so easily. The tells are there for the most part and they have to be melee to do damage which to me is fine. As for its sustain, it needs it to compete with other bruisers in the current meta and taking that away will just remove weaver from being viable. If you see this spec as a problem I would suggest you look at the traits/skills and the animations for them, also know that most things are not meant to 1v1 a fire weaver.

This is all from ranked and not ats. I've played about 600 games last season and thats where this ranking comes from.

i agree with everything except Fire Weaver being healthier than Necro... i mean, necro has 2 dodges and what? maybe the Wurm teleport and the Spectral Walk port back - that’s it... while weaver has lots of evade spam with Twisted Fate, dodges, attune dancing, water sword2, etc.